I used to ride horses when I was a kid (10?) in New Mexico. Chico was docile and
obedient when we were out and about but when we were approaching "home" and he
could see the barn where the food was he would start to gallop and would go through the
entrance without regard to its being too low for a rider to fit. If I hadn't jumped off
I'd have been hurt. I never felt that he loved me.
---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505
505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM
On Thu, Jul 25, 2024, 4:00 PM Jochen Fromm <j...@cas-group.net
<mailto:j...@cas-group.net>> wrote:
Personally I only have experience with cats which my parents had when I was
young and the horse which my wife has now. I would say neither cats nor horses
love their owners. If a cat sleeps during the day on the couch it is most
likely not because it is so peaceful and cozy and loves to be around you, it is
rather because it is a nocturnal predator tired from hunting birds and mice at
night, which they occasionally proudly present to their human owners.
Horses love only two things: being near the herd and eating green grass,
ideally both at the same time. And if they go in heat they want to mate, which
happens every 21 days in female horses. They recognize their owners after a few
months, and start to trust them, but if you come to their paddock and they come
to you if is not because they love you but because they love the carrots and
apples that you likely have for them. Similarly if you bring them back after
the ride or the training they do not turn around or say goodbye. It feels like
almost autistic behavior sometimes because they lack the social habits we
usually have.
https://www.psychologytoday.com/intl/blog/animal-emotions/201308/do-animals-typically-think-autistic-savants
<https://www.psychologytoday.com/intl/blog/animal-emotions/201308/do-animals-typically-think-autistic-savants>
Therefore I would say based on my limited experience with cats and horses
that humans love their animals, yes, but animals do not love them back in the
same way. To me it feels more like they tolerate us as friends for a limited
time: friends who are useful because they provide food and shelter.
-J.
-------- Original message --------
From: Nicholas Thompson <thompnicks...@gmail.com
<mailto:thompnicks...@gmail.com>>
Date: 7/24/24 10:41 PM (GMT+01:00)
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <friam@redfish.com
<mailto:friam@redfish.com>>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Self-Consciousness, experience and metaphysics
But you have no experiences yourself that are relevant to this question,
right?
n
On Wed, Jul 24, 2024 at 4:38 PM Jochen Fromm <j...@cas-group.net
<mailto:j...@cas-group.net>> wrote:
Are animals and humans capable of mutual love? I'm not sure. It depends how you
define love. Romantic love seems to be specific for humans. No matter how much your dog
or cat may like you, "if you die at home alone, there's a decent chance your pet
will eat you"
https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fwww.science.org%2fcontent%2farticle%2fscienceadviser-will-your-pet-eat-you-after-you-die&c=E,1,x8_vQW9pzWH52VqU-GukFE-6S8vn8szInLTglBXumVE8KyoTVTkXDX8gcvu0X_zzgcRni8BO1O_c27a43-Lcpox88IBk7EZbEI21nPIRyElD0BfrNFwzEyM,&typo=1
<https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fwww.science.org%2fcontent%2farticle%2fscienceadviser-will-your-pet-eat-you-after-you-die&c=E,1,Ep3m9G2qPEDHDY2wtTHybxm9X1rDbiZlzHal95bZ1wSmVrc2nqbvh4YbUA2-hh09b2OOz-beQyl2kA6jBwCABxRbwMYuY0iW-V3WqtlD_rPL2Q_wCFqXcDjD&typo=1>
But I believe Darwin was right when he wrote "there is no fundamental
difference between man and animals in their ability to feel pleasure and pain, happiness,
and misery"
https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cv223z15mpmo
<https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cv223z15mpmo>
-J.
-------- Original message --------
From: Nicholas Thompson <thompnicks...@gmail.com
<mailto:thompnicks...@gmail.com>>
Date: 7/24/24 8:17 PM (GMT+01:00)
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <friam@redfish.com
<mailto:friam@redfish.com>>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Self-Consciousness, experience and metaphysics
Jochen,
No bending here. This IS the thread.
I thought many of us came to agree, be deploying experiences, that an
animal and a human were capable of mutual love. I was never sure where you
stood on that.
I want to get to the point where we can resolve our different view of
animals and consciousness. My colleagues seemed to agree that these two
propositions are true.
/*Dusty (Dave) *//*Is *//*conscious of Dave (Dusty).*/
/*
*/
And now we are working on these two:
/*
*/
/*Dusty (Dave) is c*//*onscious of Dusty (Dave).*/
/*
*/
I have been working on Dave's last post, which got forked into some
noman's land for the last two hours, mostly trying to get a clean version of it
into this thread. I will post it asap. Meantime, I am looking for
experiences/anecdotes that would lead you to believe that
animals/computers/humans are (are not) conscious. People have been enormously
helpful in making me clarify what I am hoping for. Whatever else I mean by an
experience/anecdote, it is a description of something that happened to
somebody, preferably you, that affirmed (disconfirmed)your believe that animals
are (are not) [self] conscious; what I don't mean is references lectures and
tomes. Frankly, I would prefer to have a cat video.
Nick
On Wed, Jul 24, 2024 at 1:31 PM Jochen Fromm <j...@cas-group.net
<mailto:j...@cas-group.net>> wrote:
Nick,
Looking for self-awareness in animals before language emerged feels
to me like searching for culture in anthropology before civilizations appeared.
People in anthropology study human societies, cultures and their
development, but sadly mostly in the time before it gets interesting (when
religions, writing systems and civilizations emerged in ancient Egypt and
ancient Mesopotamia). They examine for instance primitive hunter gatherer
groups in Africa or ancient tribes in the Amazon region.
Looking for examples of particular experiences with animals that
show signs of self-awareness (and not only respond to the world around them,
but also respond to their own responding to the world around them) feels
similar to me: it is like focusing on a fascinating phenomenon but at a place
before it gets interesting.
If this comment bends the thread too much then please ignore it :-)
J.
-------- Original message --------
From: Nicholas Thompson <thompnicks...@gmail.com
<mailto:thompnicks...@gmail.com>>
Date: 7/23/24 6:57 PM (GMT+01:00)
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <friam@redfish.com
<mailto:friam@redfish.com>>, Prof David West <profw...@fastmail.fm
<mailto:profw...@fastmail.fm>>
Subject: [FRIAM] Self-Consciousness, experience and metaphysics
David's last post so effectively blurs the lines between these two
that I am going to give up, for the moment, on my attempt to keep them straight.
Intuition tells me that Dave's post falls on one side of the line,
and Glen's on the other, but I have to go shopping. I am still hoping to
hear examples of particular experiences with animals, computers, spouses, etc.,
that confirm your sense that they are not only responding to the world around
them, but also responding to their own responding to the world around them.
Back to this later when stocked up
In the meantime, Please, you-all, don't dick with this thread,
don't fork it and do, if you are responding to a particular comment, speak to
that person, don't just fling your wisdom out into the ether.
I never thought you guys would turn me into a thread-Nazi.
