But you have no experiences yourself that are relevant to this question, right?
n On Wed, Jul 24, 2024 at 4:38 PM Jochen Fromm <j...@cas-group.net> wrote: > Are animals and humans capable of mutual love? I'm not sure. It depends > how you define love. Romantic love seems to be specific for humans. No > matter how much your dog or cat may like you, "if you die at home alone, > there's a decent chance your pet will eat you" > > > https://www.science.org/content/article/scienceadviser-will-your-pet-eat-you-after-you-die > > But I believe Darwin was right when he wrote "there is no fundamental > difference between man and animals in their ability to feel pleasure and > pain, happiness, and misery" > > https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cv223z15mpmo > > > -J. > > > > -------- Original message -------- > From: Nicholas Thompson <thompnicks...@gmail.com> > Date: 7/24/24 8:17 PM (GMT+01:00) > To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <friam@redfish.com> > > Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Self-Consciousness, experience and metaphysics > > Jochen, > > No bending here. This IS the thread. > > I thought many of us came to agree, be deploying experiences, that an > animal and a human were capable of mutual love. I was never sure where you > stood on that. > > I want to get to the point where we can resolve our different view of > animals and consciousness. My colleagues seemed to agree that these two > propositions are true. > > *Dusty (Dave) **Is **conscious of Dave (Dusty).* > > And now we are working on these two: > > *Dusty (Dave) is c**onscious of Dusty (Dave).* > > I have been working on Dave's last post, which got forked into some > noman's land for the last two hours, mostly trying to get a clean version > of it into this thread. I will post it asap. Meantime, I am looking for > experiences/anecdotes that would lead you to believe that > animals/computers/humans are (are not) conscious. People have been > enormously helpful in making me clarify what I am hoping for. Whatever > else I mean by an experience/anecdote, it is a description of something > that happened to somebody, preferably you, that affirmed (disconfirmed)your > believe that animals are (are not) [self] conscious; what I don't mean is > references lectures and tomes. Frankly, I would prefer to have a cat > video. > > Nick > > > On Wed, Jul 24, 2024 at 1:31 PM Jochen Fromm <j...@cas-group.net> wrote: > >> Nick, >> >> Looking for self-awareness in animals before language emerged feels to me >> like searching for culture in anthropology before civilizations appeared. >> >> People in anthropology study human societies, cultures and their >> development, but sadly mostly in the time before it gets interesting (when >> religions, writing systems and civilizations emerged in ancient Egypt and >> ancient Mesopotamia). They examine for instance primitive hunter gatherer >> groups in Africa or ancient tribes in the Amazon region. >> >> Looking for examples of particular experiences with animals that show >> signs of self-awareness (and not only respond to the world around them, but >> also respond to their own responding to the world around them) feels >> similar to me: it is like focusing on a fascinating phenomenon but at a >> place before it gets interesting. >> >> >> If this comment bends the thread too much then please ignore it :-) >> >> >> J. >> >> >> >> -------- Original message -------- >> From: Nicholas Thompson <thompnicks...@gmail.com> >> Date: 7/23/24 6:57 PM (GMT+01:00) >> To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <friam@redfish.com>, >> Prof David West <profw...@fastmail.fm> >> Subject: [FRIAM] Self-Consciousness, experience and metaphysics >> >> David's last post so effectively blurs the lines between these two that I >> am going to give up, for the moment, on my attempt to keep them straight. >> >> Intuition tells me that Dave's post falls on one side of the line, and >> Glen's on the other, but I have to go shopping. I am still hoping to >> hear examples of particular experiences with animals, computers, spouses, >> etc., that confirm your sense that they are not only responding to the >> world around them, but also responding to their own responding to the world >> around them. >> >> Back to this later when stocked up >> >> In the meantime, Please, you-all, don't dick with this thread, don't fork >> it and do, if you are responding to a particular comment, speak to that >> person, don't just fling your wisdom out into the ether. >> >> I never thought you guys would turn me into a thread-Nazi. >> >> Nick >> -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. . >> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >> Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom >> https://bit.ly/virtualfriam >> to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com >> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ >> archives: 5/2017 thru present >> https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ >> 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/ >> > > > -- > Nicholas S. Thompson > Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Ethology > Clark University > -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. . > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom > https://bit.ly/virtualfriam > to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ > archives: 5/2017 thru present > https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ > 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/ > -- Nicholas S. Thompson Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Ethology Clark University
-. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. . FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom https://bit.ly/virtualfriam to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ archives: 5/2017 thru present https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/
