Jochen, No bending here. This IS the thread.
I thought many of us came to agree, be deploying experiences, that an animal and a human were capable of mutual love. I was never sure where you stood on that. I want to get to the point where we can resolve our different view of animals and consciousness. My colleagues seemed to agree that these two propositions are true. *Dusty (Dave) **Is **conscious of Dave (Dusty).* And now we are working on these two: *Dusty (Dave) is c**onscious of Dusty (Dave).* I have been working on Dave's last post, which got forked into some noman's land for the last two hours, mostly trying to get a clean version of it into this thread. I will post it asap. Meantime, I am looking for experiences/anecdotes that would lead you to believe that animals/computers/humans are (are not) conscious. People have been enormously helpful in making me clarify what I am hoping for. Whatever else I mean by an experience/anecdote, it is a description of something that happened to somebody, preferably you, that affirmed (disconfirmed)your believe that animals are (are not) [self] conscious; what I don't mean is references lectures and tomes. Frankly, I would prefer to have a cat video. Nick On Wed, Jul 24, 2024 at 1:31 PM Jochen Fromm <j...@cas-group.net> wrote: > Nick, > > Looking for self-awareness in animals before language emerged feels to me > like searching for culture in anthropology before civilizations appeared. > > People in anthropology study human societies, cultures and their > development, but sadly mostly in the time before it gets interesting (when > religions, writing systems and civilizations emerged in ancient Egypt and > ancient Mesopotamia). They examine for instance primitive hunter gatherer > groups in Africa or ancient tribes in the Amazon region. > > Looking for examples of particular experiences with animals that show > signs of self-awareness (and not only respond to the world around them, but > also respond to their own responding to the world around them) feels > similar to me: it is like focusing on a fascinating phenomenon but at a > place before it gets interesting. > > > If this comment bends the thread too much then please ignore it :-) > > > J. > > > > -------- Original message -------- > From: Nicholas Thompson <thompnicks...@gmail.com> > Date: 7/23/24 6:57 PM (GMT+01:00) > To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <friam@redfish.com>, > Prof David West <profw...@fastmail.fm> > Subject: [FRIAM] Self-Consciousness, experience and metaphysics > > David's last post so effectively blurs the lines between these two that I > am going to give up, for the moment, on my attempt to keep them straight. > > Intuition tells me that Dave's post falls on one side of the line, and > Glen's on the other, but I have to go shopping. I am still hoping to > hear examples of particular experiences with animals, computers, spouses, > etc., that confirm your sense that they are not only responding to the > world around them, but also responding to their own responding to the world > around them. > > Back to this later when stocked up > > In the meantime, Please, you-all, don't dick with this thread, don't fork > it and do, if you are responding to a particular comment, speak to that > person, don't just fling your wisdom out into the ether. > > I never thought you guys would turn me into a thread-Nazi. > > Nick > -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. . > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom > https://bit.ly/virtualfriam > to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ > archives: 5/2017 thru present > https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ > 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/ > -- Nicholas S. Thompson Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Ethology Clark University
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