Hi all, I've been away/busy and have lost track of the schedule. Are we still meeting in person over the summer? Thanks, Jacques
On Thu, Jul 25, 2024 at 4:15 PM Frank Wimberly <wimber...@gmail.com> wrote: > I used to ride horses when I was a kid (10?) in New Mexico. Chico was > docile and obedient when we were out and about but when we were approaching > "home" and he could see the barn where the food was he would start to > gallop and would go through the entrance without regard to its being too > low for a rider to fit. If I hadn't jumped off I'd have been hurt. I never > felt that he loved me. > > --- > Frank C. Wimberly > 140 Calle Ojo Feliz, > Santa Fe, NM 87505 > > 505 670-9918 > Santa Fe, NM > > On Thu, Jul 25, 2024, 4:00 PM Jochen Fromm <j...@cas-group.net> wrote: > >> Personally I only have experience with cats which my parents had when I >> was young and the horse which my wife has now. I would say neither cats nor >> horses love their owners. If a cat sleeps during the day on the couch it is >> most likely not because it is so peaceful and cozy and loves to be around >> you, it is rather because it is a nocturnal predator tired from hunting >> birds and mice at night, which they occasionally proudly present to their >> human owners. >> >> Horses love only two things: being near the herd and eating green grass, >> ideally both at the same time. And if they go in heat they want to mate, >> which happens every 21 days in female horses. They recognize their owners >> after a few months, and start to trust them, but if you come to their >> paddock and they come to you if is not because they love you but because >> they love the carrots and apples that you likely have for them. Similarly >> if you bring them back after the ride or the training they do not turn >> around or say goodbye. It feels like almost autistic behavior sometimes >> because they lack the social habits we usually have. >> >> https://www.psychologytoday.com/intl/blog/animal-emotions/201308/do-animals-typically-think-autistic-savants >> >> Therefore I would say based on my limited experience with cats and horses >> that humans love their animals, yes, but animals do not love them back in >> the same way. To me it feels more like they tolerate us as friends for a >> limited time: friends who are useful because they provide food and shelter. >> >> -J. >> >> >> -------- Original message -------- >> From: Nicholas Thompson <thompnicks...@gmail.com> >> Date: 7/24/24 10:41 PM (GMT+01:00) >> To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <friam@redfish.com> >> >> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Self-Consciousness, experience and metaphysics >> >> But you have no experiences yourself that are relevant to this question, >> right? >> >> n >> >> On Wed, Jul 24, 2024 at 4:38 PM Jochen Fromm <j...@cas-group.net> wrote: >> >>> Are animals and humans capable of mutual love? I'm not sure. It depends >>> how you define love. Romantic love seems to be specific for humans. No >>> matter how much your dog or cat may like you, "if you die at home alone, >>> there's a decent chance your pet will eat you" >>> >>> >>> https://www.science.org/content/article/scienceadviser-will-your-pet-eat-you-after-you-die >>> >>> But I believe Darwin was right when he wrote "there is no fundamental >>> difference between man and animals in their ability to feel pleasure and >>> pain, happiness, and misery" >>> >>> https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cv223z15mpmo >>> >>> >>> -J. >>> >>> >>> >>> -------- Original message -------- >>> From: Nicholas Thompson <thompnicks...@gmail.com> >>> Date: 7/24/24 8:17 PM (GMT+01:00) >>> To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group < >>> friam@redfish.com> >>> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Self-Consciousness, experience and metaphysics >>> >>> Jochen, >>> >>> No bending here. This IS the thread. >>> >>> I thought many of us came to agree, be deploying experiences, that an >>> animal and a human were capable of mutual love. I was never sure where you >>> stood on that. >>> >>> I want to get to the point where we can resolve our different view of >>> animals and consciousness. My colleagues seemed to agree that these two >>> propositions are true. >>> >>> *Dusty (Dave) **Is **conscious of Dave (Dusty).* >>> >>> And now we are working on these two: >>> >>> *Dusty (Dave) is c**onscious of Dusty (Dave).* >>> >>> I have been working on Dave's last post, which got forked into some >>> noman's land for the last two hours, mostly trying to get a clean version >>> of it into this thread. I will post it asap. Meantime, I am looking for >>> experiences/anecdotes that would lead you to believe that >>> animals/computers/humans are (are not) conscious. People have been >>> enormously helpful in making me clarify what I am hoping for. Whatever >>> else I mean by an experience/anecdote, it is a description of something >>> that happened to somebody, preferably you, that affirmed (disconfirmed)your >>> believe that animals are (are not) [self] conscious; what I don't mean is >>> references lectures and tomes. Frankly, I would prefer to have a cat >>> video. >>> >>> Nick >>> >>> >>> On Wed, Jul 24, 2024 at 1:31 PM Jochen Fromm <j...@cas-group.net> wrote: >>> >>>> Nick, >>>> >>>> Looking for self-awareness in animals before language emerged feels to >>>> me like searching for culture in anthropology before civilizations >>>> appeared. >>>> >>>> People in anthropology study human societies, cultures and their >>>> development, but sadly mostly in the time before it gets interesting (when >>>> religions, writing systems and civilizations emerged in ancient Egypt and >>>> ancient Mesopotamia). They examine for instance primitive hunter gatherer >>>> groups in Africa or ancient tribes in the Amazon region. >>>> >>>> Looking for examples of particular experiences with animals that show >>>> signs of self-awareness (and not only respond to the world around them, but >>>> also respond to their own responding to the world around them) feels >>>> similar to me: it is like focusing on a fascinating phenomenon but at a >>>> place before it gets interesting. >>>> >>>> >>>> If this comment bends the thread too much then please ignore it :-) >>>> >>>> >>>> J. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -------- Original message -------- >>>> From: Nicholas Thompson <thompnicks...@gmail.com> >>>> Date: 7/23/24 6:57 PM (GMT+01:00) >>>> To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group < >>>> friam@redfish.com>, Prof David West <profw...@fastmail.fm> >>>> Subject: [FRIAM] Self-Consciousness, experience and metaphysics >>>> >>>> David's last post so effectively blurs the lines between these two that >>>> I am going to give up, for the moment, on my attempt to keep them straight. >>>> >>>> Intuition tells me that Dave's post falls on one side of the line, and >>>> Glen's on the other, but I have to go shopping. I am still hoping to >>>> hear examples of particular experiences with animals, computers, spouses, >>>> etc., that confirm your sense that they are not only responding to the >>>> world around them, but also responding to their own responding to the world >>>> around them. >>>> >>>> Back to this later when stocked up >>>> >>>> In the meantime, Please, you-all, don't dick with this thread, don't >>>> fork it and do, if you are responding to a particular comment, speak to >>>> that person, don't just fling your wisdom out into the ether. >>>> >>>> I never thought you guys would turn me into a thread-Nazi. >>>> >>>> Nick >>>> -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. . >>>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >>>> Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom >>>> https://bit.ly/virtualfriam >>>> to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com >>>> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ >>>> archives: 5/2017 thru present >>>> https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ >>>> 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/ >>>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Nicholas S. Thompson >>> Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Ethology >>> Clark University >>> -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. . >>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >>> Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom >>> https://bit.ly/virtualfriam >>> to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com >>> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ >>> archives: 5/2017 thru present >>> https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ >>> 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/ >>> >> >> >> -- >> Nicholas S. Thompson >> Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Ethology >> Clark University >> -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. . >> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >> Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom >> https://bit.ly/virtualfriam >> to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com >> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ >> archives: 5/2017 thru present >> https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ >> 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/ >> > -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. . > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom > https://bit.ly/virtualfriam > to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ > archives: 5/2017 thru present > https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ > 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/ >
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