Personally I only have experience with cats which my parents had when I was young and the horse which my wife has now. I would say neither cats nor horses love their owners. If a cat sleeps during the day on the couch it is most likely not because it is so peaceful and cozy and loves to be around you, it is rather because it is a nocturnal predator tired from hunting birds and mice at night, which they occasionally proudly present to their human owners.Horses love only two things: being near the herd and eating green grass, ideally both at the same time. And if they go in heat they want to mate, which happens every 21 days in female horses. They recognize their owners after a few months, and start to trust them, but if you come to their paddock and they come to you if is not because they love you but because they love the carrots and apples that you likely have for them. Similarly if you bring them back after the ride or the training they do not turn around or say goodbye. It feels like almost autistic behavior sometimes because they lack the social habits we usually have.https://www.psychologytoday.com/intl/blog/animal-emotions/201308/do-animals-typically-think-autistic-savantsTherefore I would say based on my limited experience with cats and horses that humans love their animals, yes, but animals do not love them back in the same way. To me it feels more like they tolerate us as friends for a limited time: friends who are useful because they provide food and shelter.-J. -------- Original message --------From: Nicholas Thompson <thompnicks...@gmail.com> Date: 7/24/24 10:41 PM (GMT+01:00) To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <friam@redfish.com> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Self-Consciousness, experience and metaphysics But you have no experiences yourself that are relevant to this question, right?nOn Wed, Jul 24, 2024 at 4:38 PM Jochen Fromm <j...@cas-group.net> wrote:Are animals and humans capable of mutual love? I'm not sure. It depends how you define love. Romantic love seems to be specific for humans. No matter how much your dog or cat may like you, "if you die at home alone, there's a decent chance your pet will eat you"https://www.science.org/content/article/scienceadviser-will-your-pet-eat-you-after-you-dieBut I believe Darwin was right when he wrote "there is no fundamental difference between man and animals in their ability to feel pleasure and pain, happiness, and misery"https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cv223z15mpmo-J.-------- Original message --------From: Nicholas Thompson <thompnicks...@gmail.com> Date: 7/24/24 8:17 PM (GMT+01:00) To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <friam@redfish.com> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Self-Consciousness, experience and metaphysics Jochen,No bending here. This IS the thread.I thought many of us came to agree, be deploying experiences, that an animal and a human were capable of mutual love. I was never sure where you stood on that. I want to get to the point where we can resolve our different view of animals and consciousness. My colleagues seemed to agree that these two propositions are true. Dusty (Dave) Is conscious of Dave (Dusty).And now we are working on these two: Dusty (Dave) is conscious of Dusty (Dave).I have been working on Dave's last post, which got forked into some noman's land for the last two hours, mostly trying to get a clean version of it into this thread. I will post it asap. Meantime, I am looking for experiences/anecdotes that would lead you to believe that animals/computers/humans are (are not) conscious. People have been enormously helpful in making me clarify what I am hoping for. Whatever else I mean by an experience/anecdote, it is a description of something that happened to somebody, preferably you, that affirmed (disconfirmed)your believe that animals are (are not) [self] conscious; what I don't mean is references lectures and tomes. Frankly, I would prefer to have a cat video. Nick
On Wed, Jul 24, 2024 at 1:31 PM Jochen Fromm <j...@cas-group.net> wrote:Nick, Looking for self-awareness in animals before language emerged feels to me like searching for culture in anthropology before civilizations appeared.People in anthropology study human societies, cultures and their development, but sadly mostly in the time before it gets interesting (when religions, writing systems and civilizations emerged in ancient Egypt and ancient Mesopotamia). They examine for instance primitive hunter gatherer groups in Africa or ancient tribes in the Amazon region. Looking for examples of particular experiences with animals that show signs of self-awareness (and not only respond to the world around them, but also respond to their own responding to the world around them) feels similar to me: it is like focusing on a fascinating phenomenon but at a place before it gets interesting.If this comment bends the thread too much then please ignore it :-)J.-------- Original message --------From: Nicholas Thompson <thompnicks...@gmail.com> Date: 7/23/24 6:57 PM (GMT+01:00) To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <friam@redfish.com>, Prof David West <profw...@fastmail.fm> Subject: [FRIAM] Self-Consciousness, experience and metaphysics David's last post so effectively blurs the lines between these two that I am going to give up, for the moment, on my attempt to keep them straight.Intuition tells me that Dave's post falls on one side of the line, and Glen's on the other, but I have to go shopping. I am still hoping to hear examples of particular experiences with animals, computers, spouses, etc., that confirm your sense that they are not only responding to the world around them, but also responding to their own responding to the world around them. Back to this later when stocked upIn the meantime, Please, you-all, don't dick with this thread, don't fork it and do, if you are responding to a particular comment, speak to that person, don't just fling your wisdom out into the ether.I never thought you guys would turn me into a thread-Nazi. Nick -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. . FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom https://bit.ly/virtualfriam to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ archives: 5/2017 thru present https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/ -- Nicholas S. ThompsonEmeritus Professor of Psychology and EthologyClark University -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. . FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom https://bit.ly/virtualfriam to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ archives: 5/2017 thru present https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/ -- Nicholas S. ThompsonEmeritus Professor of Psychology and EthologyClark University
-. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. . FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom https://bit.ly/virtualfriam to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ archives: 5/2017 thru present https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/
