long time ago, in the early days of "virtual reality" I consulted for W Industries, a company in England that made full body suits with thousands of tiny sensors and effectors for the purpose of cyber-sex. They worked well enough but suffered from a "lack of resolution" just as early CRT monitors. Unlike monitors, like Apple's Retina displays, where the 'pixel density' could be increased sufficiently to be convincing; the body suits would have had to have a "pixel' density" several orders of magnitude greater than that required to build a convincing display.
davew On Sun, Jul 7, 2024, at 1:50 PM, Frank Wimberly wrote: > Stephen, > > During the four years I worked at the Robotics Institute I worked on the > Factory of the Future project. This involved sensors, including cameras, > temperature sensors, viscosity, conductivity and whatever else was relevant. > Also actuators which controlled inputs to the different subprocesses in the > manufacture of fluorescent light bulbs. We implemented some subsystems > related to automated inspection of coatings inside the bulbs but conceptually > we designed the whole factory. During that project Westinghouse sold all of > its lightbulb manufacturing plants and IP to Phillips of the Netherlands and > they stopped our work. The point is I am familiar with the concepts you > mention. Even if that project had resulted in a factory that could > manufacture light bulbs with minimal human supervision it would not have > occurred to me that there was any consciousness involved. Intelligence yes. > As for embodied intelligence? Sort of. > > Frank > --- > Frank C. Wimberly > 140 Calle Ojo Feliz, > Santa Fe, NM 87505 > > 505 670-9918 > Santa Fe, NM > > On Sun, Jul 7, 2024, 12:23 PM Stephen Guerin <stephen.gue...@simtable.com> > wrote: >> Frank, >> >> embodied where? in our shared world? if it uses sensors and actuators like >> Marcus's Waymo that perceives him and hopefully acts to avoid him? >> >> Consider the Simtable that uses structured light >> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Structured_light> in a perception-action loop >> (ala the neo-Gibsonians in ecological psychology) with the projector camera >> feedback to recover a dynamic 3D model of its world and watch with its >> camera for human interaction (laserpointers, object tracking etc) to trigger >> corresponding behaviors with the projector to interact with the user. Is it >> embodied? >> >> >> >> On Sun, Jul 7, 2024 at 12:08 PM Frank Wimberly <wimber...@gmail.com> wrote: >>> So you think of software running on a computer as being embodied? >>> >>> --- >>> Frank C. Wimberly >>> 140 Calle Ojo Feliz, >>> Santa Fe, NM 87505 >>> >>> 505 670-9918 >>> Santa Fe, NM >>> >>> On Sun, Jul 7, 2024, 9:12 AM Nicholas Thompson <thompnicks...@gmail.com> >>> wrote: >>>> I think of large language models as the most embodied things on the >>>> planet, but let that go for a moment. Back to baby steps. >>>> >>>> Can you lay out for me why you believe that language is essential to >>>> self-awareness. Does that believe arise from ideology, authority, or some >>>> set of facts I need to take account of. To be honest here, I should say >>>> where I am coming from. A lot of my so-called career was spent railing >>>> against circular reasoning in evolutionary theory and psychology. So, if >>>> language is essential to self-awareness, and animals do not have language, >>>> then it indeed follows that animals do not have self-awareness. But what >>>> if our method for detecting self awareness requires language? Now we are >>>> in a loop. Are we in such a loop, or are there facts of some matter, >>>> independent of language, convince you that animals are not self-aware. Is >>>> self awareness extricable from language? >>>> >>>> It is an old old trope that animals are automata but that humans have >>>> soul. Descartes swore by it. Is "language" the new soul? >>>> >>>> Nick >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Sun, Jul 7, 2024 at 7:29 AM Jochen Fromm <j...@cas-group.net> wrote: >>>>> I would say cats, dogs and horses don't have meta-awareness because they >>>>> lack language. They live in the present moment, in the here and now. >>>>> Without language they do not have the capability to reflect on their past >>>>> or to think about their future. They can not formulate stories of >>>>> themselves which could help to form a sense of identity. Language is the >>>>> mirror in which we perceive ourselves during "this is me" moments. >>>>> Animals lack this mirror completely. One dimensional scents trails do not >>>>> count as language. >>>>> >>>>> Large languages models lack consciousness because they do not have a body >>>>> which is embedded as a actor in an environment. These two things are >>>>> necessary: the physical world of bodies, and the mental world of >>>>> language. When both collide in the same spot we can get consciousness. >>>>> >>>>> -J. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -------- Original message -------- >>>>> From: Nicholas Thompson <thompnicks...@gmail.com> >>>>> Date: 7/6/24 5:05 AM (GMT+01:00) >>>>> To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <friam@redfish.com> >>>>> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Why the Mystery of Consciousness Is Deeper Than We >>>>> Thought >>>>> >>>>> Well, that's because Socrates claimed not to know what he thought, and >>>>> since I genuinely don[t know what I think until I work it out, the >>>>> conversation has the same quality. I apologize for that. my students >>>>> found it truly distressing. >>>>> >>>>> So, if you will indulge me, why don't you think your cat has >>>>> meta=awareness? Authority, ideology, or is there some experience you >>>>> have had that leads you to think that. It would be kind of odd if it >>>>> she didn't because animals have all sorts of ways of distinguishing self >>>>> from other. They have ways of knowinng that "I did that". (e.g., scent >>>>> marking?) >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Fri, Jul 5, 2024 at 3:19 PM Jochen Fromm <j...@cas-group.net> wrote: >>>>>> Well yes, if meta-awareness is defined as acting in response to one's >>>>>> own awareness then I would say animals like a cat don't have it but >>>>>> humans have. As an example I could say this almost feels like I am a >>>>>> participant in a dialogue from Plato... >>>>>> >>>>>> I would be surprised if it can be described in simple terms. If the >>>>>> essence of consciousness is subjective experience then it is indeed hard >>>>>> to describe by a theory although there are many attempts. Persons who >>>>>> perceive things differently are wired differently. And what is more >>>>>> subjective than the perception of oneself? >>>>>> >>>>>> https://informationisbeautiful.net/visualizations/what-is-consciousness/ >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> If we can describe it mathematically then probably as a way an >>>>>> information feels if it is processed in complex ways, ad infinitum like >>>>>> the orbits of a strange attractor. >>>>>> >>>>>> https://chaoticatmospheres.com/mathrules-strange-attractors >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -J. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -------- Original message -------- >>>>>> From: Nicholas Thompson <thompnicks...@gmail.com> >>>>>> Date: 7/5/24 6:56 PM (GMT+01:00) >>>>>> To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group >>>>>> <friam@redfish.com> >>>>>> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Why the Mystery of Consciousness Is Deeper Than We >>>>>> Thought >>>>>> >>>>>> , >>>>>> >>>>>> Great! Baby steps. "If we aren't moving slowly, we aren't moving." >>>>>> So, can I define some new terms, tentatively, *per explorandum* ? Let's >>>>>> call acting-in-respect-to-the-world, "awareness". Allowing this >>>>>> definition, we certainly seem to agree that the cat is aware. Lets >>>>>> define meta-awareness as acting i respect to one's own awareness. Now, >>>>>> am I correct in assuming that you identify meta-awareness with >>>>>> consciousness and that you think that the cat is not meta-aware and that >>>>>> I probably am? And further that you think that meta-awareness requires >>>>>> consciousness? >>>>>> >>>>>> Nick >>>>>> >>>>>> On Fri, Jul 5, 2024 at 12:17 PM Jochen Fromm <j...@cas-group.net> wrote: >>>>>>> I would say a cat is conscious in the sense that it is aware of its >>>>>>> immediate environment. Cats are nocturnal animals who hunt at night and >>>>>>> mostly sleep during the day. Consciousness in the sense of being aware >>>>>>> of oneself as an actor in an environment requires understanding of >>>>>>> language which only humans have ( and LLMs now ) >>>>>>> https://www.quantamagazine.org/insects-and-other-animals-have-consciousness-experts-declare-20240419/ >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -J. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -------- Original message -------- >>>>>>> From: Nicholas Thompson <thompnicks...@gmail.com> >>>>>>> Date: 7/5/24 5:02 AM (GMT+01:00) >>>>>>> To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group >>>>>>> <friam@redfish.com> >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Why the Mystery of Consciousness Is Deeper Than We >>>>>>> Thought >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Jochen, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> *I think the first step in any conversation is to decide whether your >>>>>>> cat is conscious. If so, why do you think so; if not, likewise. I had >>>>>>> a facinnationg conversation with GBT about whether he was conscious >>>>>>> and he denied it "hotly", which, of course, met one of his criteria for >>>>>>> consciousness. * >>>>>>> ** >>>>>>> *So. Is your cat connscious?* >>>>>>> ** >>>>>>> *Nick* >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Thu, Jul 4, 2024 at 7:26 PM Jochen Fromm <j...@cas-group.net> wrote: >>>>>>>> I don't get Philip Goff: first we send our children 20 years to >>>>>>>> school, from Kindergarten to college and university, to teach them all >>>>>>>> kinds of languages, and then we wonder how they can be conscious. It >>>>>>>> will be the same for AI: first we spend millions and millions to train >>>>>>>> them all available knowledge, and then we wonder how they can develop >>>>>>>> understanding of language and consciousness... >>>>>>>> https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/the-mystery-of-consciousness-is-deeper-than-we-thought/ >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -J. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. . >>>>>>>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >>>>>>>> Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom >>>>>>>> https://bit.ly/virtualfriam >>>>>>>> to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com >>>>>>>> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ >>>>>>>> archives: 5/2017 thru present >>>>>>>> https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ >>>>>>>> 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/ >>>>>>> -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. . >>>>>>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >>>>>>> Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom >>>>>>> https://bit.ly/virtualfriam >>>>>>> to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com >>>>>>> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ >>>>>>> archives: 5/2017 thru present >>>>>>> https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ >>>>>>> 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/ >>>>>> -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. . >>>>>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >>>>>> Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom >>>>>> https://bit.ly/virtualfriam >>>>>> to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com >>>>>> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ >>>>>> archives: 5/2017 thru present >>>>>> https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ >>>>>> 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/ >>>>> -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. . >>>>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >>>>> Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom >>>>> https://bit.ly/virtualfriam >>>>> to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com >>>>> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ >>>>> archives: 5/2017 thru present >>>>> https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ >>>>> 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/ >>>> -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. . >>>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >>>> Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom >>>> https://bit.ly/virtualfriam >>>> to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com >>>> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ >>>> archives: 5/2017 thru present >>>> https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ >>>> 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/ >>> -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. . >>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >>> Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom >>> https://bit.ly/virtualfriam >>> to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com >>> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ >>> archives: 5/2017 thru present >>> https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ >>> 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/ >> -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. . >> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >> Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom >> https://bit.ly/virtualfriam >> to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com >> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ >> archives: 5/2017 thru present >> https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ >> 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/ > -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. . > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom > https://bit.ly/virtualfriam > to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ > archives: 5/2017 thru present > https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ > 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/ >
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