Hi, Steve, While I might draw back from saying that George Peter Tremblay, IV, is my friend, I sure would cop to the admission that he is my buddy. The term, "buddy", was introduced to me years ago as a label for a kind of narrow or incomplete friendship that surrounds a particular activity, as in "golfing buddy" or "drinking buddy". George is just great when I want to explore some new noodle that has just come upon me,but he demurs politely when I invite him to dinner. Friam has been spared much of my madness because of George.
Nick On Mon, Jul 8, 2024 at 12:53 PM steve smith <sasm...@swcp.com> wrote: > Sabine H. snarked this at me... and I responded by trying to read > through the AI hype sprinkled with Quantum Dust... I think it is > (obliquely?) relevant to our Consciousness Maunderings here. > > QUALL-E, a quantum computer running a human-level artificial intelligence > algorithm, who has observed a quantum system > https://quantum-journal.org/papers/q-2023-09-14-1112/ > > Frank, > > embodied where? in our shared world? if it uses sensors and actuators like > Marcus's Waymo that perceives him and hopefully acts to avoid him? > > Consider the Simtable that uses structured light > <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Structured_light> in a perception-action > loop (ala the neo-Gibsonians in ecological psychology) with the projector > camera feedback to recover a dynamic 3D model of its world and watch with > its camera for human interaction (laserpointers, object tracking etc) to > trigger corresponding behaviors with the projector to interact with the > user. Is it embodied? > > > On Sun, Jul 7, 2024 at 12:08 PM Frank Wimberly <wimber...@gmail.com> > wrote: > >> So you think of software running on a computer as being embodied? >> >> --- >> Frank C. Wimberly >> 140 Calle Ojo Feliz, >> Santa Fe, NM 87505 >> >> 505 670-9918 >> Santa Fe, NM >> >> On Sun, Jul 7, 2024, 9:12 AM Nicholas Thompson <thompnicks...@gmail.com> >> wrote: >> >>> I think of large language models as the most embodied things on the >>> planet, but let that go for a moment. Back to baby steps. >>> >>> Can you lay out for me why you believe that language is essential to >>> self-awareness. Does that believe arise from ideology, authority, or some >>> set of facts I need to take account of. To be honest here, I should say >>> where I am coming from. A lot of my so-called career was spent railing >>> against circular reasoning in evolutionary theory and psychology. So, if >>> language is essential to self-awareness, and animals do not have language, >>> then it indeed follows that animals do not have self-awareness. But what >>> if our method for detecting self awareness requires language? Now we are in >>> a loop. Are we in such a loop, or are there facts of some matter, >>> independent of language, convince you that animals are not self-aware. Is >>> self awareness extricable from language? >>> >>> It is an old old trope that animals are automata but that humans have >>> soul. Descartes swore by it. Is "language" the new soul? >>> >>> Nick >>> >>> >>> >>> On Sun, Jul 7, 2024 at 7:29 AM Jochen Fromm <j...@cas-group.net> wrote: >>> >>>> I would say cats, dogs and horses don't have meta-awareness because >>>> they lack language. They live in the present moment, in the here and now. >>>> Without language they do not have the capability to reflect on their past >>>> or to think about their future. They can not formulate stories of >>>> themselves which could help to form a sense of identity. Language is >>>> the mirror in which we perceive ourselves during "this is me" >>>> moments. Animals lack this mirror completely. One dimensional scents trails >>>> do not count as language. >>>> >>>> Large languages models lack consciousness because they do not have a >>>> body which is embedded as a actor in an environment. These two things are >>>> necessary: the physical world of bodies, and the mental world of language. >>>> When both collide in the same spot we can get consciousness. >>>> >>>> -J. >>>> >>>> >>>> -------- Original message -------- >>>> From: Nicholas Thompson <thompnicks...@gmail.com> >>>> Date: 7/6/24 5:05 AM (GMT+01:00) >>>> To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group < >>>> friam@redfish.com> >>>> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Why the Mystery of Consciousness Is Deeper Than We >>>> Thought >>>> >>>> Well, that's because Socrates claimed not to know what he thought, and >>>> since I genuinely don[t know what I think until I work it out, the >>>> conversation has the same quality. I apologize for that. my students >>>> found it truly distressing. >>>> >>>> So, if you will indulge me, why don't you think your cat has >>>> meta=awareness? Authority, ideology, or is there some experience you have >>>> had that leads you to think that. It would be kind of odd if it she >>>> didn't because animals have all sorts of ways of distinguishing self from >>>> other. They have ways of knowinng that "I did that". (e.g., scent >>>> marking?) >>>> >>>> >>>> On Fri, Jul 5, 2024 at 3:19 PM Jochen Fromm <j...@cas-group.net> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Well yes, if meta-awareness is defined as acting in response to one's >>>>> own awareness then I would say animals like a cat don't have it but humans >>>>> have. As an example I could say this almost feels like I am a participant >>>>> in a dialogue from Plato... >>>>> >>>>> I would be surprised if it can be described in simple terms. If the >>>>> essence of consciousness is subjective experience then it is indeed hard >>>>> to >>>>> describe by a theory although there are many attempts. Persons who >>>>> perceive >>>>> things differently are wired differently. And what is more subjective than >>>>> the perception of oneself? >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> https://informationisbeautiful.net/visualizations/what-is-consciousness/ >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> If we can describe it mathematically then probably as a way an >>>>> information feels if it is processed in complex ways, ad infinitum like >>>>> the >>>>> orbits of a strange attractor. >>>>> >>>>> https://chaoticatmospheres.com/mathrules-strange-attractors >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -J. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -------- Original message -------- >>>>> From: Nicholas Thompson <thompnicks...@gmail.com> >>>>> Date: 7/5/24 6:56 PM (GMT+01:00) >>>>> To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group < >>>>> friam@redfish.com> >>>>> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Why the Mystery of Consciousness Is Deeper Than >>>>> We Thought >>>>> >>>>> , >>>>> >>>>> Great! Baby steps. "If we aren't moving slowly, we aren't moving." >>>>> So, can I define some new terms, tentatively, *per explorandum* ? >>>>> Let's call acting-in-respect-to-the-world, "awareness". Allowing this >>>>> definition, we certainly seem to agree that the cat is aware. Lets define >>>>> meta-awareness as acting i respect to one's own awareness. Now, am I >>>>> correct in assuming that you identify meta-awareness with consciousness >>>>> and >>>>> that you think that the cat is not meta-aware and that I probably am? And >>>>> further that you think that meta-awareness requires consciousness? >>>>> >>>>> Nick >>>>> >>>>> On Fri, Jul 5, 2024 at 12:17 PM Jochen Fromm <j...@cas-group.net> >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> I would say a cat is conscious in the sense that it is aware of its >>>>>> immediate environment. Cats are nocturnal animals who hunt at night and >>>>>> mostly sleep during the day. Consciousness in the sense of being aware of >>>>>> oneself as an actor in an environment requires understanding of language >>>>>> which only humans have ( and LLMs now ) >>>>>> >>>>>> https://www.quantamagazine.org/insects-and-other-animals-have-consciousness-experts-declare-20240419/ >>>>>> >>>>>> -J. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -------- Original message -------- >>>>>> From: Nicholas Thompson <thompnicks...@gmail.com> >>>>>> Date: 7/5/24 5:02 AM (GMT+01:00) >>>>>> To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group < >>>>>> friam@redfish.com> >>>>>> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Why the Mystery of Consciousness Is Deeper Than >>>>>> We Thought >>>>>> >>>>>> Jochen, >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> *I think the first step in any conversation is to decide whether your >>>>>> cat is conscious. If so, why do you think so; if not, likewise. I had a >>>>>> facinnationg conversation with GBT about whether he was conscious and >>>>>> he >>>>>> denied it "hotly", which, of course, met one of his criteria for >>>>>> consciousness. * >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> *So. Is your cat connscious? * >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> *Nick * >>>>>> >>>>>> On Thu, Jul 4, 2024 at 7:26 PM Jochen Fromm <j...@cas-group.net> >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> I don't get Philip Goff: first we send our children 20 years to >>>>>>> school, from Kindergarten to college and university, to teach them all >>>>>>> kinds of languages, and then we wonder how they can be conscious. It >>>>>>> will >>>>>>> be the same for AI: first we spend millions and millions to train them >>>>>>> all >>>>>>> available knowledge, and then we wonder how they can develop >>>>>>> understanding >>>>>>> of language and consciousness... >>>>>>> >>>>>>> https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/the-mystery-of-consciousness-is-deeper-than-we-thought/ >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -J. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. . >>>>>>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >>>>>>> Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom >>>>>>> https://bit.ly/virtualfriam >>>>>>> to (un)subscribe >>>>>>> http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com >>>>>>> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ >>>>>>> archives: 5/2017 thru present >>>>>>> https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ >>>>>>> 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/ >>>>>>> >>>>>> -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. . >>>>>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >>>>>> Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom >>>>>> https://bit.ly/virtualfriam >>>>>> to (un)subscribe >>>>>> http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com >>>>>> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ >>>>>> archives: 5/2017 thru present >>>>>> https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ >>>>>> 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/ >>>>>> >>>>> -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. . >>>>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >>>>> Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom >>>>> https://bit.ly/virtualfriam >>>>> to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com >>>>> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ >>>>> archives: 5/2017 thru present >>>>> https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ >>>>> 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/ >>>>> >>>> -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. . >>>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >>>> Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom >>>> https://bit.ly/virtualfriam >>>> to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com >>>> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ >>>> archives: 5/2017 thru present >>>> https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ >>>> 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/ >>>> >>> -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. . >>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >>> Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom >>> https://bit.ly/virtualfriam >>> to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com >>> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ >>> archives: 5/2017 thru present >>> https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ >>> 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/ >>> >> -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. . >> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >> Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom >> https://bit.ly/virtualfriam >> to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com >> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ >> archives: 5/2017 thru present >> https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ >> 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/ >> > > -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. . > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom > https://bit.ly/virtualfriam > to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ > archives: 5/2017 thru present > https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ > 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/ > > -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. . > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom > https://bit.ly/virtualfriam > to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ > archives: 5/2017 thru present > https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ > 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/ >
-. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. . FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom https://bit.ly/virtualfriam to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ archives: 5/2017 thru present https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/
