Sabine H. snarked this at me... and I responded by trying to read
through the AI hype sprinkled with Quantum Dust... I think it is
(obliquely?) relevant to our Consciousness Maunderings here.
QUALL-E, a quantum computer running a human-level artificial
intelligence algorithm, who has observed a quantum system
https://quantum-journal.org/papers/q-2023-09-14-1112/
Frank,
embodied where? in our shared world? if it uses sensors and actuators
like Marcus's Waymo that perceives him and hopefully acts to avoid him?
Consider the Simtable that uses structured light
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Structured_light> in a
perception-action loop (ala the neo-Gibsonians in ecological
psychology) with the projector camera feedback to recover a dynamic 3D
model of its world and watch with its camera for human interaction
(laserpointers, object tracking etc) to trigger
corresponding behaviors with the projector to interact with the user.
Is it embodied?
On Sun, Jul 7, 2024 at 12:08 PM Frank Wimberly <wimber...@gmail.com>
wrote:
So you think of software running on a computer as being embodied?
---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505
505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM
On Sun, Jul 7, 2024, 9:12 AM Nicholas Thompson
<thompnicks...@gmail.com> wrote:
I think of large language models as the most embodied things
on the planet, but let that go for a moment. Back to baby steps.
Can you lay out for me why you believe that language is
essential to self-awareness. Does that believe arise from
ideology, authority, or some set of facts I need to take
account of. To be honest here, I should say where I am coming
from. A lot of my so-called career was spent railing against
circular reasoning in evolutionary theory and psychology. So,
if language is essential to self-awareness, and animals do not
have language, then it indeed follows that animals do not have
self-awareness. But what if our method for detecting self
awareness requires language? Now we are in a loop. Are we in
such a loop, or are there facts of some matter, independent of
language, convince you that animals are not self-aware. Is
self awareness extricable from language?
It is an old old trope that animals are automata but that
humans have soul. Descartes swore by it. Is "language" the
new soul?
Nick
On Sun, Jul 7, 2024 at 7:29 AM Jochen Fromm
<j...@cas-group.net> wrote:
I would say cats, dogs and horses don't have
meta-awareness because they lack language. They live in
the present moment, in the here and now. Without language
they do not have the capability to reflect on their past
or to think about their future. They can not formulate
stories of themselves which could help to form a sense of
identity. Language is the mirror in which we perceive
ourselves during "this is me" moments. Animals lack this
mirror completely. One dimensional scents trails do not
count as language.
Large languages models lack consciousness because they do
not have a body which is embedded as a actor in an
environment. These two things are necessary: the physical
world of bodies, and the mental world of language. When
both collide in the same spot we can get consciousness.
-J.
-------- Original message --------
From: Nicholas Thompson <thompnicks...@gmail.com>
Date: 7/6/24 5:05 AM (GMT+01:00)
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
<friam@redfish.com>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Why the Mystery of Consciousness Is
Deeper Than We Thought
Well, that's because Socrates claimed not to know what he
thought, and since I genuinely don[t know what I think
until I work it out, the conversation has the same
quality. I apologize for that. my students found it
truly distressing.
So, if you will indulge me, why don't you think your cat
has meta=awareness? Authority, ideology, or is there
some experience you have had that leads you to think
that. It would be kind of odd if it she didn't because
animals have all sorts of ways of distinguishing self from
other. They have ways of knowinng that "I did that".
(e.g., scent marking?)
On Fri, Jul 5, 2024 at 3:19 PM Jochen Fromm
<j...@cas-group.net> wrote:
Well yes, if meta-awareness is defined as acting in
response to one's own awareness then I would say
animals like a cat don't have it but humans have. As
an example I could say this almost feels like I am a
participant in a dialogue from Plato...
I would be surprised if it can be described in simple
terms. If the essence of consciousness is subjective
experience then it is indeed hard to describe by a
theory although there are many attempts. Persons who
perceive things differently are wired differently. And
what is more subjective than the perception of oneself?
https://informationisbeautiful.net/visualizations/what-is-consciousness/
If we can describe it mathematically then probably as
a way an information feels if it is processed in
complex ways, ad infinitum like the orbits of a
strange attractor.
https://chaoticatmospheres.com/mathrules-strange-attractors
-J.
-------- Original message --------
From: Nicholas Thompson <thompnicks...@gmail.com>
Date: 7/5/24 6:56 PM (GMT+01:00)
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
<friam@redfish.com>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Why the Mystery of Consciousness
Is Deeper Than We Thought
,
Great! Baby steps. "If we aren't moving slowly, we
aren't moving." So, can I define some new terms,
tentatively, /per explorandum/ ? Let's call
acting-in-respect-to-the-world, "awareness".
Allowing this definition, we certainly seem to agree
that the cat is aware. Lets define meta-awareness as
acting i respect to one's own awareness. Now, am I
correct in assuming that you identify meta-awareness
with consciousness and that you think that the cat is
not meta-aware and that I probably am? And further
that you think that meta-awareness requires consciousness?
Nick
On Fri, Jul 5, 2024 at 12:17 PM Jochen Fromm
<j...@cas-group.net> wrote:
I would say a cat is conscious in the sense that
it is aware of its immediate environment. Cats are
nocturnal animals who hunt at night and mostly
sleep during the day. Consciousness in the sense
of being aware of oneself as an actor in an
environment requires understanding of language
which only humans have ( and LLMs now )
https://www.quantamagazine.org/insects-and-other-animals-have-consciousness-experts-declare-20240419/
-J.
-------- Original message --------
From: Nicholas Thompson <thompnicks...@gmail.com>
Date: 7/5/24 5:02 AM (GMT+01:00)
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee
Group <friam@redfish.com>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Why the Mystery of
Consciousness Is Deeper Than We Thought
Jochen,
/I think the first step in any conversation is to
decide whether your cat is conscious. If so, why
do you think so; if not, likewise. I had a
facinnationg conversation with GBT about whether
he was conscious and he denied it "hotly", which,
of course, met one of his criteria for consciousness.
/
/
/
/So. Is your cat connscious?
/
/
/
/Nick
/
On Thu, Jul 4, 2024 at 7:26 PM Jochen Fromm
<j...@cas-group.net> wrote:
I don't get Philip Goff: first we send our
children 20 years to school, from Kindergarten
to college and university, to teach them all
kinds of languages, and then we wonder how
they can be conscious. It will be the same for
AI: first we spend millions and millions to
train them all available knowledge, and then
we wonder how they can develop understanding
of language and consciousness...
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/the-mystery-of-consciousness-is-deeper-than-we-thought/
-J.
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