Frank,
embodied where? in our shared world? if it uses sensors and
actuators like Marcus's Waymo that perceives him and
hopefully acts to avoid him?
Consider the Simtable that uses structured light
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Structured_light> in a
perception-action loop (ala the neo-Gibsonians in ecological
psychology) with the projector camera feedback to recover a
dynamic 3D model of its world and watch with its camera for
human interaction (laserpointers, object tracking etc) to
trigger corresponding behaviors with the projector to
interact with the user. Is it embodied?
On Sun, Jul 7, 2024 at 12:08 PM Frank Wimberly
<wimber...@gmail.com> wrote:
So you think of software running on a computer as being
embodied?
---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
<https://www.google.com/maps/search/140+Calle+Ojo+Feliz,++%0D%0A++++++++++++++Santa+Fe,+NM+87505?entry=gmail&source=g>
Santa Fe, NM 87505
<https://www.google.com/maps/search/140+Calle+Ojo+Feliz,++%0D%0A++++++++++++++Santa+Fe,+NM+87505?entry=gmail&source=g>
505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM
On Sun, Jul 7, 2024, 9:12 AM Nicholas Thompson
<thompnicks...@gmail.com> wrote:
I think of large language models as the most embodied
things on the planet, but let that go for a moment.
Back to baby steps.
Can you lay out for me why you believe that language
is essential to self-awareness. Does that believe
arise from ideology, authority, or some set of facts
I need to take account of. To be honest here, I
should say where I am coming from. A lot of my
so-called career was spent railing against circular
reasoning in evolutionary theory and psychology. So,
if language is essential to self-awareness, and
animals do not have language, then it indeed follows
that animals do not have self-awareness. But what if
our method for detecting self awareness requires
language? Now we are in a loop. Are we in such a
loop, or are there facts of some matter, independent
of language, convince you that animals are not
self-aware. Is self awareness extricable from language?
It is an old old trope that animals are automata but
that humans have soul. Descartes swore by it. Is
"language" the new soul?
Nick
On Sun, Jul 7, 2024 at 7:29 AM Jochen Fromm
<j...@cas-group.net> wrote:
I would say cats, dogs and horses don't have
meta-awareness because they lack language. They
live in the present moment, in the here and now.
Without language they do not have the capability
to reflect on their past or to think about their
future. They can not formulate stories of
themselves which could help to form a sense of
identity. Language is the mirror in which we
perceive ourselves during "this is me"
moments. Animals lack this mirror completely. One
dimensional scents trails do not count as language.
Large languages models lack consciousness because
they do not have a body which is embedded as a
actor in an environment. These two things are
necessary: the physical world of bodies, and the
mental world of language. When both collide in
the same spot we can get consciousness.
-J.
-------- Original message --------
From: Nicholas Thompson <thompnicks...@gmail.com>
Date: 7/6/24 5:05 AM (GMT+01:00)
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee
Group <friam@redfish.com>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Why the Mystery of
Consciousness Is Deeper Than We Thought
Well, that's because Socrates claimed not to know
what he thought, and since I genuinely don[t know
what I think until I work it out, the
conversation has the same quality. I apologize
for that. my students found it truly distressing.
So, if you will indulge me, why don't you think
your cat has meta=awareness? Authority,
ideology, or is there some experience you have
had that leads you to think that. It would be
kind of odd if it she didn't because animals have
all sorts of ways of distinguishing self from
other. They have ways of knowinng that "I did
that". (e.g., scent marking?)
On Fri, Jul 5, 2024 at 3:19 PM Jochen Fromm
<j...@cas-group.net> wrote:
Well yes, if meta-awareness is defined as
acting in response to one's own awareness
then I would say animals like a cat don't
have it but humans have. As an example I
could say this almost feels like I am a
participant in a dialogue from Plato...
I would be surprised if it can be described
in simple terms. If the essence of
consciousness is subjective experience then
it is indeed hard to describe by a theory
although there are many attempts. Persons who
perceive things differently are wired
differently. And what is more subjective than
the perception of oneself?
https://informationisbeautiful.net/visualizations/what-is-consciousness/
If we can describe it mathematically then
probably as a way an information feels if it
is processed in complex ways, ad infinitum
like the orbits of a strange attractor.
https://chaoticatmospheres.com/mathrules-strange-attractors
-J.
-------- Original message --------
From: Nicholas Thompson
<thompnicks...@gmail.com>
Date: 7/5/24 6:56 PM (GMT+01:00)
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity
Coffee Group <friam@redfish.com>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Why the Mystery of
Consciousness Is Deeper Than We Thought
,
Great! Baby steps. "If we aren't moving
slowly, we aren't moving." So, can I define
some new terms, tentatively, /per
explorandum/ ? Let's call
acting-in-respect-to-the-world, "awareness".
Allowing this definition, we certainly seem
to agree that the cat is aware. Lets define
meta-awareness as acting i respect to one's
own awareness. Now, am I correct in assuming
that you identify meta-awareness with
consciousness and that you think that the cat
is not meta-aware and that I probably am?
And further that you think that
meta-awareness requires consciousness?
Nick
On Fri, Jul 5, 2024 at 12:17 PM Jochen Fromm
<j...@cas-group.net> wrote:
I would say a cat is conscious in the
sense that it is aware of its immediate
environment. Cats are nocturnal animals
who hunt at night and mostly sleep during
the day. Consciousness in the sense of
being aware of oneself as an actor in an
environment requires understanding of
language which only humans have ( and
LLMs now )
https://www.quantamagazine.org/insects-and-other-animals-have-consciousness-experts-declare-20240419/
-J.
-------- Original message --------
From: Nicholas Thompson
<thompnicks...@gmail.com>
Date: 7/5/24 5:02 AM (GMT+01:00)
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity
Coffee Group <friam@redfish.com>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Why the Mystery of
Consciousness Is Deeper Than We Thought
Jochen,
/I think the first step in any
conversation is to decide whether your
cat is conscious. If so, why do you
think so; if not, likewise. I had a
facinnationg conversation with GBT
about whether he was conscious and he
denied it "hotly", which, of course, met
one of his criteria for consciousness.
/
/
/
/So. Is your cat connscious?
/
/
/
/Nick
/
On Thu, Jul 4, 2024 at 7:26 PM Jochen
Fromm <j...@cas-group.net> wrote:
I don't get Philip Goff: first we
send our children 20 years to school,
from Kindergarten to college and
university, to teach them all kinds
of languages, and then we wonder how
they can be conscious. It will be the
same for AI: first we spend millions
and millions to train them all
available knowledge, and then we
wonder how they can develop
understanding of language and
consciousness...
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/the-mystery-of-consciousness-is-deeper-than-we-thought/
-J.
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