Nick sed: > So, what facts of the matter convince you that one or more languages are > essential for meta awareess. Or is it elf-evident
You could do as the linguists do and look for minimal pairs: The obvious low-hanging fruit is sleeping/awake. Everybody knows that one and uses it, and probably rightly so. But then, if you are aware that your dog can have states of delirium if medicated or ill, and that this is _not_ the same as being “with it”, clearly there is something else in the “with it” that we often intend by “awareness”, which is somehow made more salient by the contrast. There is a digression in here somewhere, and I am not sure where to put it. It is at one time a caution against the excessively mechanistic habits of saying things, and also a rejection of most of those who reject mechanistic language (or rather, the way they do). An example of the class: If I speak of “material things”, I intend a pretty inclusive category, meaning that the substance is our normal hierarchy of matter as now fairly nicely understood through physics; they take up space and have world-lines (relating them to spacetime), etc. Now, if I go on to say “people are material things”, I haven’t violated anything as far as I can tell. But maybe then someone sensitive is outraged, and harangues me with “How can you say that all people are is things!” and so on. The bad-faith (or sloppy thought) is that I didn’t say “all”. If I ever say “all” about any referent, I am obligating myself to give as much as is required to set the object of that referent apart from every object of every other referent. Which of course, generally, would be an infinite obligation. It seems the same to me, with the mechanistic behaviorist accounts of awareness (or whatever word; they are not all coextensive, and there are many). The mechanistic angles, carefully said, are completely fine, in the same sense as my account that “people are material things” seems to me unproblematic membership in a likely-pretty-stable category, and a quite inclusive one. But surely, among the material things, there is much else that sets people apart, for which we still need concepts that somehow add something to our nebulous intuitions and gestures (else, just stay with the gestures). So also for “awareness” among the broad range of things that are behavior. It seems that people want good concepts for setting categories apart within others. They have some terms from the common language, and at least most of the time feel that those have the right affective direction. (The philosophers “What is it like to be a …”) But if asked for terms with which one can do more than the slippery common-language usages enable, they are generally disappointed with whatever is suggested to them. Most of the terms that are trotted out, since time immemorial, are either common-language terms, or maybe mechanical terms for broad categories of other things. No complaint with them, but they don’t feel like they grasp anything “new” and distinctive to this case of having experience. It seems perfectly sensible to me that, as long as there isn’t that novelty, people will continue to express dissatisfaction, and go back to artistic renderings. I would _love_ to have new concept terms, which were as satisfying as the artistic and emotive ones, but that also made things thinkable. Being a physicist, I am completely optimistic that such should be possible. Curved, Minkowskian n-dimensional spacetimes, and superposed quantum-mechanical state spaces were not thinkable concepts before we slowly got to them, but we have them now, and they are wonderful and satisfying. They add a thing to the world that wasn’t in it before. Why not that, too, for whatever we self-gesture at with awareness. But then, speaking of what is wanted, let me return to dogs: If I had to use words to refer to the condition of greeting after an absence, they would be something like: You! You’re here! You! Of course, that “you!” Is a composite of smells, sights, sounds, contact, and what-all. Very thick; very integrated, very concrete and substantial. And complex. All the dimensions of trust or entitlement are layered onto them. If I were asked, what is the notion of “being aware” that you feel is not yet well-flagged as-itself, by the behaviorists’ machine-like (old) language, I would say that whatever the dog is experiencing is about as full and complete a sense of what distinguishes awareness as anything I ever experience. I would go further and say that that state of awareness is much _more_ fundamental than the somewhat-contrived notions of “self” that come up as frameworks or targets of attention sometimes. Those notions can arise as constructions within awareness, but I would not put them as a container for it. That container is closer to whatever the dog is doing, and that I, in complex but uncomplicated moments, can sometimes forget myself and do (or maybe I should only use the past tense at this point). Eric > On Jul 9, 2024, at 6:19 AM, Nicholas Thompson <thompnicks...@gmail.com> wrote: > > i am moved by the romance and beauty of your account, but ultimately left > hungry for experiences I can put my foot on. > You and I are clearly inclined to disagree, and I was raised to experience > disagreement as a discomfort.. So how then are we to precede. I think, not > withstandijng Goethe and Cervantes, that baby steps is the only way. Of > course, you might be citing Goethe and Cervantes as authorities on the > matter, in which case I can only reply, perhaps blushing slightly at my own > callousness, that they are not so for me. > > So, what facts of the matter convince you that one or more languages are > essential for meta awareess. Or is it elf-evident > > On Mon, Jul 8, 2024 at 4:49 PM Jochen Fromm <j...@cas-group.net > <mailto:j...@cas-group.net>> wrote: > IMHO it is not one language which is necessary, but more than one. Languages > can be used to create worlds, to move around it them, and to share these > wolds with others. Tolkien and J.K. Rowling have created whole universes. The > interesting things happen if worlds collide, if they merge and melt, or if > they drift apart. > > Cervantes in Spain, Goethe in Germany and Dante in Italy helped to create new > languages - Spanish, German and Italian, respectively. They also examined in > their most famous books what happens if worlds collide. > > Cervantes describes in "Don Quixote" > what happens when imaginary and real worlds collide and are so out of sync > that the actors are getting lost. > > Goethe decribes in his "Faust" what happens when collective and individual > worlds collide, i.e. when egoistic individuals exploit the world selfishly > for their own benefit (in his first book "The sorrows of young Werther" > Goethe focused like Fontane and Freud on the opposite). > > Dante describes in his "Divine Comedy" > what happens when worlds diverge and people are excluded and expelled from > the world. > > Language is necessary for self awareness because it provides the building > blocks for a new world which is connected but also independent from the old > one. This allows new dimensions of interactions. The connections between > worlds matter. A label is a simple connection between a word in one world and > an class of objects in another. A metaphor is a more complex connection > between an abstract idea and a composition of objects, etc. > > -J. > > > -------- Original message -------- > From: Nicholas Thompson <thompnicks...@gmail.com > <mailto:thompnicks...@gmail.com>> > Date: 7/7/24 5:13 PM (GMT+01:00) > To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <friam@redfish.com > <mailto:friam@redfish.com>> > Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Why the Mystery of Consciousness Is Deeper Than We > Thought > > I think of large language models as the most embodied things on the planet, > but let that go for a moment. Back to baby steps. > > Can you lay out for me why you believe that language is essential to > self-awareness. Does that believe arise from ideology, authority, or some > set of facts I need to take account of. To be honest here, I should say > where I am coming from. A lot of my so-called career was spent railing > against circular reasoning in evolutionary theory and psychology. So, if > language is essential to self-awareness, and animals do not have language, > then it indeed follows that animals do not have self-awareness. But what if > our method for detecting self awareness requires language? Now we are in a > loop. Are we in such a loop, or are there facts of some matter, independent > of language, convince you that animals are not self-aware. Is self awareness > extricable from language? > > It is an old old trope that animals are automata but that humans have soul. > Descartes swore by it. Is "language" the new soul? > > Nick > > > > On Sun, Jul 7, 2024 at 7:29 AM Jochen Fromm <j...@cas-group.net > <mailto:j...@cas-group.net>> wrote: > I would say cats, dogs and horses don't have meta-awareness because they lack > language. They live in the present moment, in the here and now. Without > language they do not have the capability to reflect on their past or to think > about their future. They can not formulate stories of themselves which could > help to form a sense of identity. Language is the mirror in which we perceive > ourselves during "this is me" moments. Animals lack this mirror completely. > One dimensional scents trails do not count as language. > > Large languages models lack consciousness because they do not have a body > which is embedded as a actor in an environment. These two things are > necessary: the physical world of bodies, and the mental world of language. > When both collide in the same spot we can get consciousness. > > -J. > > > -------- Original message -------- > From: Nicholas Thompson <thompnicks...@gmail.com > <mailto:thompnicks...@gmail.com>> > Date: 7/6/24 5:05 AM (GMT+01:00) > To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <friam@redfish.com > <mailto:friam@redfish.com>> > Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Why the Mystery of Consciousness Is Deeper Than We > Thought > > Well, that's because Socrates claimed not to know what he thought, and since > I genuinely don[t know what I think until I work it out, the conversation has > the same quality. I apologize for that. my students found it truly > distressing. > > So, if you will indulge me, why don't you think your cat has meta=awareness? > Authority, ideology, or is there some experience you have had that leads > you to think that. It would be kind of odd if it she didn't because animals > have all sorts of ways of distinguishing self from other. They have ways of > knowinng that "I did that". (e.g., scent marking?) > > > On Fri, Jul 5, 2024 at 3:19 PM Jochen Fromm <j...@cas-group.net > <mailto:j...@cas-group.net>> wrote: > Well yes, if meta-awareness is defined as acting in response to one's own > awareness then I would say animals like a cat don't have it but humans have. > As an example I could say this almost feels like I am a participant in a > dialogue from Plato... > > I would be surprised if it can be described in simple terms. If the essence > of consciousness is subjective experience then it is indeed hard to describe > by a theory although there are many attempts. Persons who perceive things > differently are wired differently. And what is more subjective than the > perception of oneself? > https://informationisbeautiful.net/visualizations/what-is-consciousness/ > <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2finformationisbeautiful.net%2fvisualizations%2fwhat-is-consciousness%2f&c=E,1,9CB4v0IpeZcvuZaEaFQeWBNk-4VABbaeMfLlDlVkeqjuFXDjKCHiGkySLmJJVjeUZXik8wezjQ8-6Al6p1_SMfgqY5u2B-kQS7E-fE5rKWtq7IuH&typo=1> > > If we can describe it mathematically then probably as a way an information > feels if it is processed in complex ways, ad infinitum like the orbits of a > strange attractor. > https://chaoticatmospheres.com/mathrules-strange-attractors > <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fchaoticatmospheres.com%2fmathrules-strange-attractors&c=E,1,Xrhmsgov8zHqeBRIZAf6KBl8l_hbfPMbXgZ70QfIP_wMuFjPyxS08hTxFucpD_K9pTqpu9FotEGCqTi0UddN_yzTFHZCyB9eJx5s_HvlW_-Odq7ruu_iKYlV-Wc,&typo=1> > > -J. > > > -------- Original message -------- > From: Nicholas Thompson <thompnicks...@gmail.com > <mailto:thompnicks...@gmail.com>> > Date: 7/5/24 6:56 PM (GMT+01:00) > To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <friam@redfish.com > <mailto:friam@redfish.com>> > Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Why the Mystery of Consciousness Is Deeper Than We > Thought > > , > > Great! Baby steps. "If we aren't moving slowly, we aren't moving." So, can > I define some new terms, tentatively, per explorandum ? Let's call > acting-in-respect-to-the-world, "awareness". Allowing this definition, we > certainly seem to agree that the cat is aware. Lets define meta-awareness as > acting i respect to one's own awareness. Now, am I correct in assuming that > you identify meta-awareness with consciousness and that you think that the > cat is not meta-aware and that I probably am? And further that you think > that meta-awareness requires consciousness? > > Nick > > On Fri, Jul 5, 2024 at 12:17 PM Jochen Fromm <j...@cas-group.net > <mailto:j...@cas-group.net>> wrote: > I would say a cat is conscious in the sense that it is aware of its immediate > environment. Cats are nocturnal animals who hunt at night and mostly sleep > during the day. Consciousness in the sense of being aware of oneself as an > actor in an environment requires understanding of language which only humans > have ( and LLMs now ) > https://www.quantamagazine.org/insects-and-other-animals-have-consciousness-experts-declare-20240419/ > > <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fwww.quantamagazine.org%2finsects-and-other-animals-have-consciousness-experts-declare-20240419%2f&c=E,1,-lvTagryFZtC5H2g48gil46SZ5rxD8wFNQpQkp2xpkNEZ0GkFbMDEHtWVHi01yJ7kyYCC615lAypJkuw4iCwSVPMotCaeiLjK8DWDo5AsKAaUnam&typo=1> > > -J. > > > -------- Original message -------- > From: Nicholas Thompson <thompnicks...@gmail.com > <mailto:thompnicks...@gmail.com>> > Date: 7/5/24 5:02 AM (GMT+01:00) > To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <friam@redfish.com > <mailto:friam@redfish.com>> > Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Why the Mystery of Consciousness Is Deeper Than We > Thought > > Jochen, > > I think the first step in any conversation is to decide whether your cat is > conscious. If so, why do you think so; if not, likewise. I had a > facinnationg conversation with GBT about whether he was conscious and he > denied it "hotly", which, of course, met one of his criteria for > consciousness. > > So. Is your cat connscious? > > Nick > > On Thu, Jul 4, 2024 at 7:26 PM Jochen Fromm <j...@cas-group.net > <mailto:j...@cas-group.net>> wrote: > I don't get Philip Goff: first we send our children 20 years to school, from > Kindergarten to college and university, to teach them all kinds of languages, > and then we wonder how they can be conscious. It will be the same for AI: > first we spend millions and millions to train them all available knowledge, > and then we wonder how they can develop understanding of language and > consciousness... > https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/the-mystery-of-consciousness-is-deeper-than-we-thought/ > > <https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/the-mystery-of-consciousness-is-deeper-than-we-thought/> > > -J. > > -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. . > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom > https://bit.ly/virtualfriam > <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fbit.ly%2fvirtualfriam&c=E,1,cZeb4zd9YBHt-HVn1p46e4q2S0IVzjG1-O45jrtfow3Qf_cvEEC19kRmLex60293Qqzf7TjHMd-dNnmcY7yb5F8gLrU9eZOH_vG3niNyJhBI&typo=1> > to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2fredfish.com%2fmailman%2flistinfo%2ffriam_redfish.com&c=E,1,AsbfALLBUjEPwQ9xbaQzI6lc4svKc0ODa0YMIiHYdQXyGE9BMQrm4R4vsLIidqFwDapu9CBUrPAjclF3Fcl7EqrVxeA1HCgZun223wFJRf5We23hfA,,&typo=1> > FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ > <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2ffriam-comic.blogspot.com%2f&c=E,1,Baw69UjyFP0GEh2jhOYcp7iJfYsVB6GorTa0v1GQnFjRy7sDkbm2Ttgl_FNwpj4Q1nYyy6JgjzXsA1o5Dow7x6Hbtt65RihJFTaJ1ZPhhBWnz7IJaA,,&typo=1> > archives: 5/2017 thru present > https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ > <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fredfish.com%2fpipermail%2ffriam_redfish.com%2f&c=E,1,D2hx8j2whuf3ZPN-hu-wPJ3n4f_NSK-UqZYonL7jmhRjFeAXpIbAwdzpxQ2ma4fKzowmo__EmTTjMuACXSb7xnQTT9a8100LTASe2OOFuwTlQjsWiRI,&typo=1> > 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/ > <http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/> > -. --- - 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