--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Kevin Tarr <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > At 11:36 AM 3/2/2004, you wrote: > > Half of our development staff is Indian. I turn to them to tell me the > >technology can do what I want it to do. They are the subject matter experts > >to programming. The American developers are OK, but the Indians really get > >it, and they really enjoy the work. They are also the most friendly. The > >American developers here are probably the most unsocial people in IT. They > >have not make the transcendental shift to socially connect to the business > >that supports their lifestyle. It is these people that complain that wages > >are diminishing, that there is too much foreign competition, and how > >everyone outside of their little world are idiots who don't get technology. > >I have news for them. The Ivory Tower they live in is falling. > > > > > >Nerd From Hell
I would say that you don't get it. I have had a number of experiences with outsourcing and all of them have been the same. I have seen project after project canceled, not because the software could not be written, but because the people writing the software were not capable, were not mature enough to succeed. Even when the designs were sound, the ability to execute on those designs...the ability to even understand those designs was minimal. Just look at the ratio of failures that Infosys has had, and they are India's top firm. The Indian developer is not -> YET <- capable of the same level of development as US developers. If we were talking about hardware the description would be easy. However, since it is about something that requires an in-depth understanding it is often lost, even to those who -use-to-be- developers. The type of software a recent graduate in the US is capable of is like Star Trek technology. The type of software the average Indian graduate is capable of is like 1800s tech. If you want a form of transportation that gets you from New York to Paris, and you want it in X number of days for Y amount of money, then you can throw Thousands of 1800s ship builders at it, give them 2004 technology with which to build the ship and pay them 1800s wages, and you will get what you asked for. If you want a transporter, then you will have to go with the Trekkers. They may be able to do it in the same amount of time, but it's going to cost you 2004 wages. Even if this were not the case, even if we were comparing like abilities (which WILL eventually be the case, and faster than you might think), even then, we are talking about flooding a market, we are talking about undercutting. If for instance we were talking about Diamonds, or Gold, or anything, this would not be acceptable. Free market does not mean that someone can artificially change the value of something by flooding the market with that product. >> The American developers here are probably the most unsocial people in IT. This may be the case, but I do not believe you are correct when you say "unsocial", maybe just social in a different way than many who studied Business instead of Computer Science. But do you believe that these people should not be able to make a good living? Is it your opinion that only ~Social~ people should be allowed into the middle, or upper middle class? It's true, many of the Computer Scientists I know who grew up in the US, and who enjoy Software Engineering, have an alternative social ability. Does that mean that they should only be allowed to work for McDonalds wages? This group of people have found a carrier that affords them the ability to participate in the American Dream, but form the sound of it, you would have them all unemployed, and their jobs all sent over seas to people who will treat you as if you are their master, and work for slave wages. This is wrong on so many levels, I do not even know where to begin. > I am missing something. What would a programmer who doesn't analyze do? I > know a few programs that are same code/different system but most involve > thinking. In some software businesses that still follow an outdated methodology known as waterfall, (which is known to be flawed and also known to be much more conducive to outsourcing), Analysis is done by a separate "class" of worker. A very simple explanation is that analysis is the act of discovering or defining the requirements for the system, Design is the act of discovering or defining the way the system will work, and implementation is the act of discovering or defining the actual code. Waterfall methodology is where you do one of these complete it and move on to the next. This "construction" view very closely matches that of most industries were products are developed. In modern computer science, these are all done "iteratively" and by the same people. We have learned that "growing" software consistently produces better quality, and is a better investment, as it allows for the requirements, design and code to change dynamically. Software developed in this way is more robust, more efficient, and surprisingly requires less money, and less human resources over time. If for no other reason than this, outsourcing is counter productive. Although "Analyst" has been someone who did the first phase of a project, today with methodology existing at various states between waterfall and iterative, an analyst is generally someone who did not cut it as a computer scientist, or someone who was more interested in customer relations. In effect, an analyst is a "social" person business put between developers and the customer, so that the customer does not have to deal with the "unsocial" technically minded. Or rather, that is the way many analysts see themselves. More and more, the "analyst" is becoming the one Male employee the business has who can speak Hindi. I wonder what would happen if we started outsourcing the project management, the accounting and the administration, Indian doctors are cheaper, Indian Drugs, Indian lawyers� I bet there would be quite a number laws made quite quickly to keep this from happening�oh wait, there already are. _______________________________________________ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
