--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Jan Coffey [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Sent: Tuesday, March 02, 2004 5:52 PM > > To: Killer Bs Discussion > > Subject: Re: Race to the Bottom > > > > > > --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Kevin Tarr <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > At 11:36 AM 3/2/2004, you wrote: > > > > Half of our development staff is Indian. I turn to them to tell > > me the > > > >technology can do what I want it to do. They are the subject > > matter experts > > > >to programming. The American developers are OK, but the Indians > > really get > > > >it, and they really enjoy the work. They are also the most > > friendly. The > > > >American developers here are probably the most unsocial people in > > IT. They > > > >have not make the transcendental shift to socially connect to the > > business > > > >that supports their lifestyle. It is these people that complain > > that wages > > > >are diminishing, that there is too much foreign competition, and > > how > > > >everyone outside of their little world are idiots who don't get > > technology. > > > >I have news for them. The Ivory Tower they live in is falling. > > > > > > > > > > > >Nerd From Hell > > > > I would say that you don't get it. I have had a number of experiences > > with outsourcing and all of them have been the same. > > Let me clarify my position on Indian programmers. I was referring to the > Indian programmers here on staff. Some of the friendliest guys here - Always > say hi to me in the elevator. They love to do analysis. They would not be > here if they could not compete head to head against U.S. programmers. In > India, being paid to be a programmer is easy do to, but everyone needs to do > the time to learn the ropes, here or abroad. >
Let me tell you, Programmers anywhere, of all nationalities and all races, have allways for me been a joy to work with. They are the best people in the world. I have many Indean friends at work, and in my personal life. My best friend is Indean. However, there is deffinatly a differnce between those who are hear to become Americans, and those who are not. I don't care if your here from Greate Briton, Ireland, Austrailia, Africa, Indea China, Indonisia, Malaysia (where my wife is from)or wherever, if you are hear to -- become an American-- then your welcome in my book. You know what though, The Indeans that are hear , are just as upset about the outsourcing as anyone, they don't want to be indeans any more, they came here to be Americans, > > I have seen project after project canceled, not because the software > > could not be written, but because the people writing the software > > were not capable, were not mature enough to succeed. Even when the > > designs were sound, the ability to execute on those designs...the > > ability to even understand those designs was minimal. > > > > Just look at the ratio of failures that Infosys has had, and they are > > India's top firm. > > I did mention earlier that a local company here did contract a Indian firm > to do a project, analysis and all, and it failed horribly. I agree with you > here. Outsourcing is still difficult to do successfully, and I can't > remember anyone having good success with it. It still does not change the > fact that Managers will at least try to sell out the American worker for a > few bucks. The fool is right about that. It does not mean that it will be > successful. It also does not mean that Managers should not try. The Fool is > against letting market forces re-educate IT management about the value of > American programming. It is a cry to say, " We are afraid that we might > lose, so let's whack them off at the knees before they have a chance to show > their mettle." I am in favor of outsourcing because I think it will light a > fire under the "Lazy American Programmers" . We withstood the Dotcom > fallout, we can withstand this as well. I say, allow criticism to be the > referee in this issue. I would agreee with you if it were a free - and OPEN - market, but it's not. If it were free -and ---OPEN--- then the best value would win out. The way it is set up, only the outsourcing can win. They will after all catch up if Americans are not allowed to particiapate. Besides, what on earth makes you think the american programmer is lazy? We work have worked harder than anyone else in the company, in every company. Still, it's allwyas the PM who get's the bonus and the promotion. > <SNIP> > > > > Even if this were not the case, even if we were comparing like > > abilities (which WILL eventually be the case, and faster than you > > might think), even then, we are talking about flooding a market, we > > are talking about undercutting. If for instance we were talking about > > Diamonds, or Gold, or anything, this would not be acceptable. Free > > market does not mean that someone can artificially change the value > > of something by flooding the market with that product. > > > > You make a good segue for me to mention again that the value is very > artificial. When Indian firms contract out to China for work, there is > something that will break. Perhaps that will happen when China decides to > honestly valuate its money. > > > > > > >> The American developers here are probably the most unsocial people > > in IT. > > > > This may be the case, but I do not believe you are correct when you > > say "unsocial", maybe just social in a different way than many who > > studied Business instead of Computer Science. But do you believe that > > these people should not be able to make a good living? Is it your > > opinion that only ~Social~ people should be allowed into the middle, > > or upper middle class? It's true, many of the Computer Scientists I > > know who grew up in the US, and who enjoy Software Engineering, have > > an alternative social ability. Does that mean that they should only > > be allowed to work for McDonalds wages? > You must mean McDonalds management wages. Top range is about 45,000 /year. I > see a lot of job posting for developers at this rate. Clearly rates have > gone down for developers, unless you know Oracle, Peoplesoft or SAP. > > > This group of people have > > found a carrier that affords them the ability to participate in the > > American Dream, but form the sound of it, you would have them all > > unemployed, and their jobs all sent over seas to people who will > > treat you as if you are their master, and work for slave wages. > > You made the strong point that failures occur when these jobs move overseas. > Do you think that this strategy will be successful? As Erik pointed out on > another thread (Oh my god, I'm agreeing with Erik!) these things are > cyclical. I am suggesting that we should allow the mistakes to happen - to > allow criticism to rule. legislating our way into jobs will only forestall > the inevitable. Offshore programming will have their chance to prove > themselves. They will eventually be successful. We need to be ready to be as > hungry as them when it comes to competing. That's just it though, we built this industry. We should not be expected to compete on an uneven playing field. > I am sympathetic to the "blight" of the U.S. developer. I hate to see the > wages decreased. It is my thought that we are in a period where IT > management is essentially challenging the status quo. The vocalization > coming from that is that the greedy corporate empire is selling the common > developer out for a few extra bucks. Freightliner has already been accused > of this recently by the Oregon Association of Technical Professionals. > http://www.ortech.org/Freightliner.html > > But here is what 3 of the leading "Big Bosses" say about it. Take it for > what its worth... > > "There is no job that is America's God-given right anymore. We have to > compete for jobs." > Carly Fiorina, chief executive for Hewlett-Packard Co. Well, then why don't they start paying their full share of taxes, or better yet, why don't they move the whole company to indea and play by indean rules? god-given....pleas. > > "..(the United States) now has to compete for every job going forward. That > has not been on the table before. It had been assumed we had a lock on > white-collar jobs and high-tech jobs. That is no longer the case." > Craig Barrett, CEO of Intel No it wan't "assumed" we did however assume that as a fellow american, Craig and Carly would be interested in what was best for their country. What are they doing for their country? This sounds like a justification for selling us all out. > "A couple of years ago, the biggest American corporations would have > considered it risky to outsource mission-critical work to India, but it is > now becoming a common sense proposition." > Bill Gates Common sense, becouse they are no-longer restricted from doing so monitarily. > So my message has been a bit convoluted. I see the inevitability of > outsourcing. I see a lot of people complaining about it, talking about how > great we are, how we don't deserve such treatment because we are so good at > what we do. I disagree with this statement. The way to fight this war, and > it is war, is to accept the facts, and make your case. If we are as good as > we say we are, it obviously is not enough to convince the market we are > worth the money we get paid. This is what needs to be changed, not trade > laws to restrict these practices. These trade laws would ~equal ~ the playing field. Otherwise I ask you? what is a nation for? Why have a United States Of America? What purpose does a country serve if it doesn't look out for the best intrests of it's people and their way of life? >We may very well have to hump it for a > while, before things adjust. > > Jan has made great arguments about why outsourcing is bad business. > Hopefully his prognosis will be true. But there will be a period of trial > for the truth to be reflected in the market. opefully my prog will not be true. Remember, I am saying that without some kind of intravention, the Indean developer will catch up while no americans bother learning CS any more. And then, well, then, why would they even need any of us any more? That's bad for the american programmer, and it's bad for america. > I am very concerned about jobs moving overseas. I don't want it to happen, > but it seems to be happening. It been going on for a while. I myself, almost > put forth effort to provide outsourcing from these countries to American > companies. > > At the same time, I see where the application of what we do best, which is > to convert intellectual capital into currency becoming secondary to the art > of the work. With talk of Unions for white collar tech workers being drafted > in the suburban corner pubs, planning on how to provide greater security for > the poor white collar worker, corporations are fighting a global economy > which wants a piece of the American Pie. Well thn, if they want a peice, they can imulate and get it the same way we did. > I am making a call to arms. Its time to innovate - to do some American > Ass-kicking. We are the corporation. Its up to us in IT to use the brains we > have to make the corporation profitable. If that means a buildup of big > Iron, or dumping the latest greatest technology to bolster some legacy > system, then that's what it will take. Someone in IT has to make the case > that IT provides value. Right now it appears we don't. > I suggested that this is best done through analysis. From my perspective, > Business/system Analysts have been given the pigskin. They are expected to > score. I am not confident they will succeed. It will take troops from the > trenches - the developers - to provide the benevolence needed at this time. That's the issue thugh isn't it, your working from an outdated model. The analysis is nothing without the code level insite into the real concerns, that''s why we di things iterativly...or one of the many reasons which fit the same pattern > I don't see that happening. This is my message - get your head out of the > latest "Windoze Sucks" journal and start getting involved with what it > happening "socially" in the business. Your job DOES depend on it. Sorry, I have to change my personality and genetic makeup to keep my job? > And with that said, I really need to get back to work. Security just > implemented a new load balancer front end last night, and it is tanking the > authentication process for our dealers. offline(Dealer) =parts.revenue(lost) > > Time for me to "socialize" with the security tech workers to see if I can > help. The pub is for socializing, Actualy caring about the intracacies is for work. > Chad Cooper > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l _______________________________________________ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
