Yarko, I can always imagine you talking with tone fluctuations and everything since you are so expressive on your emails! :)
-Thadeus On Tue, Nov 24, 2009 at 4:11 PM, Thadeus Burgess <thade...@thadeusb.com>wrote: > since 'en' is generic that is good.... and since when did color vs colour > become that big of an issue ? > > If parts of web2py have color, and other parts have colour, then using 'en' > is what we need to use, since it is generic. > > -Thadeus > > > > > > On Tue, Nov 24, 2009 at 3:45 PM, Yarko Tymciurak < > resultsinsoftw...@gmail.com> wrote: > >> 'en' is less specific. >> >> color or colour might be in it (depending on who wrote the string); it is >> ambiguous. >> Removing ambiguity, so that - if some application appropriately needs to >> be picky about spellings, idioms, grammatical subteties, I think is >> important. >> >> 'en' is "generic"; >> >> However, it is also what comes (from web2py?) to the client in the >> Content-Language setting (in essence, we are here, within web2py, declaring >> for the application writier what the default content-language is, so that it >> can be matched with a client "accept-language" --- that is, acceptable >> language to serve for the request). >> >> I do not have a powerful position on this - but am more convinced this >> patch should declare only one language (the concept of it declaring in >> effect a web2py "content-language" at the program level seems to fit, make >> sense, and work for me). >> >> There is a lot to read on this, >> >> http://www.w3.org/International/questions/qa-http-and-lang >> >> and I would only say that I think if we think in terms of this being about >> declaring the web2py level equivalent of "content-language", then it should >> be singular. >> >> - Yarko >> >> >> On Tue, Nov 24, 2009 at 2:40 PM, Thadeus Burgess >> <thade...@thadeusb.com>wrote: >> >>> Maybe it's just me, but I can read the same sentence in en-us, en-uk, and >>> en-gr, and I understand exactly what they mean just the same. Can't it just >>> default all to en, and then any new messages that are written get added with >>> this in mind? >>> >>> -Thadeus >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Tue, Nov 24, 2009 at 2:31 PM, mdipierro <mdipie...@cs.depaul.edu>wrote: >>> >>>> >>>> I agree with you. Besides most of the current messages have been >>>> written by Fran and Jonathan who are both in Europe. How are we to >>>> decide what is en-us and what is en-uk? >>>> >>>> On Nov 24, 2:28 pm, Thadeus Burgess <thade...@thadeusb.com> wrote: >>>> > new install on ubuntu is [en-us, en]. >>>> > >>>> > I think it should just default to 'en', if you want uk english or us >>>> > english, then these are different languages, and should be forced. >>>> > >>>> > -Thadeus >>>> > >>>> > On Tue, Nov 24, 2009 at 2:25 PM, Yarko Tymciurak < >>>> > >>>> > resultsinsoftw...@gmail.com> wrote: >>>> > > On Tue, Nov 24, 2009 at 2:10 PM, Thadeus Burgess < >>>> thade...@thadeusb.com>wrote: >>>> > >>>> > >> Why can't it just be 'en'? >>>> > >>>> > > It probably could.... I just checked the request environment in a >>>> "new >>>> > > install" browser I've never used ("Konquerer on Ubuntu) and web2py >>>> is >>>> > > picking up >>>> > > http_accept_language=['en-US', 'en'] >>>> > >>>> > > So if a client had ['en-UK', 'en'], if no translation file for >>>> en-uk.py >>>> > > existed, it would "pick up" the en, and deliver in the site / apps >>>> > > internally encoded strings (which would be appropriate). >>>> > >>>> > > If this is consistent, that the ordering from a client is first >>>> > > country-specific, then country-agnostic, then this would probably be >>>> > > reasonable. The only downside: if I complained (from UK for >>>> example) >>>> > > about "color" being misspelled (if I think it should be "colour"), >>>> then the >>>> > > app is not being explicit enough about what it says it's servering. >>>> > >>>> > > Having said that, I am now convinced (pretty well) that 'en' should >>>> not be >>>> > > part of the gluon/languages initialization. I think it should be >>>> explicit, >>>> > > and only one language - the more specific declaration, not the >>>> broader one. >>>> > >>>> > > So - I think that the original patch I sent (with only 'en-us') is >>>> correct, >>>> > > and what we should use. >>>> > >>>> > > - Yarko >>>> > >>>> > >> -Thadeus >>>> > >>>> > >> On Tue, Nov 24, 2009 at 1:01 PM, Yarko Tymciurak < >>>> > >> resultsinsoftw...@gmail.com> wrote: >>>> > >>>> > >>> a short version of this (context: U.N. type of meeting): >>>> > >>>> > >>> you (in effect) changed the translator initialization code to say >>>> "The >>>> > >>> default language [string] I will present you is TWO lanugages", >>>> Massimo, it >>>> > >>> is _as if_ you said something like: "I'm speaking Itailan, or >>>> another way >>>> > >>> for you to think of it - I am speaking Russian" >>>> > >>>> > >>> It cannot be! I cannot "hear" you that way - I have to know >>>> _which_ >>>> > >>> language, if I am to have any hope of "hiring' the right >>>> translator! >>>> > >>>> > >>> There is no "can of worms" in the _problem domain_; it is in your >>>> not >>>> > >>> being specific enough in what you told me you would be speaking! >>>> > >>>> > >>> :-) >>>> > >>>> > >>> On Tue, Nov 24, 2009 at 12:51 PM, Yarko Tymciurak < >>>> > >>> resultsinsoftw...@gmail.com> wrote: >>>> > >>>> > >>>> On Tue, Nov 24, 2009 at 12:37 PM, mdipierro < >>>> mdipie...@cs.depaul.edu>wrote: >>>> > >>>> > >>>>> I put en-uk not en-gr. >>>> > >>>> > >>>> right, en-uk; from a software analysis perspective, only one >>>> language >>>> > >>>> should be in the initialization (addition of a non-country >>>> specific version >>>> > >>>> of said language should also be acceptable). >>>> > >>>> > >>>> You see, this is a big can of worms. How do you >>>> > >>>>> know that the default application is in en-us and not en-uk? >>>> > >>>> > >>>> This is not can of worms at all: you do not "know" - you >>>> declare; the >>>> > >>>> patch as you made it, you in effect declared TWO languages (two >>>> contry >>>> > >>>> specific versions of the same base language, but for >>>> understanding this it >>>> > >>>> is clearer to ignore the "non-country-specific" part - and just >>>> think of it >>>> > >>>> as TWO languages. >>>> > >>>> > >>>> When you look at this as TWO languages, and your translation >>>> class code, >>>> > >>>> you will see that once any language is in accepted languages, it >>>> will not be >>>> > >>>> picked up from the application's languages/*.py file. >>>> > >>>> > >>>> And that is the bug - you should not be initializing two >>>> languages, >>>> > >>>> because you prevent the (potential) translations of either of >>>> them from >>>> > >>>> being picked up, and served to the client. >>>> > >>>> > >>>> I can see that you considered this as "all english" - but if you >>>> think >>>> > >>>> of this as separate languages, and in terms of how you read-in >>>> the language >>>> > >>>> translation files, then the mistake is easy to see. >>>> > >>>> > >>>>> This is >>>> > >>>>> way it was not specified before. This is why I am still not >>>> completely >>>> > >>>>> convinced it is a good idea not to let the users be explicit. >>>> > >>>> > >>>> You are not looking at this in the right way; you are wrong - >>>> look in >>>> > >>>> terms of your design, and it should be immediately clear. >>>> > >>>> > >>>> For example, think about setting "default language" as 'it' and >>>> 'es' --- >>>> > >>>> and try to walk thru the logic in gluon/languages.py - then it >>>> should be >>>> > >>>> very clear that only _one_ language should be initialized. >>>> > >>>> > >>>> After that point, you can extend this to see that adding a >>>> non-country >>>> > >>>> specific language to the initialization does not cause any bad >>>> behavior, and >>>> > >>>> can be useful (help deliver the language appropriately more >>>> often). >>>> > >>>> > >>>> Just remove 'en-uk' from this patch, and it will be fine. >>>> > >>>> > >>>> - Yarko >>>> > >>>> > >>>>> On Nov 24, 12:14 pm, Yarko Tymciurak < >>>> resultsinsoftw...@gmail.com> >>>> > >>>>> wrote: >>>> > >>>>> > On Mon, Nov 23, 2009 at 2:25 PM, mdipierro < >>>> mdipie...@cs.depaul.edu> >>>> > >>>>> wrote: >>>> > >>>> > >>>>> > > Yarko's patch is tentatively in trunk since nobody seems to >>>> > >>>>> complain >>>> > >>>>> > > about this change in behavior. >>>> > >>>> > >>>>> > You made an error with the change you made in this patch: >>>> you added >>>> > >>>>> 3 >>>> > >>>>> > languages, 'en', 'en-us', and 'en-gr'; >>>> > >>>>> > This should only be either 'en-us' (the language of the >>>> distro), or >>>> > >>>>> at most >>>> > >>>>> > ['en-us', 'en']. >>>> > >>>> > >>>>> > As you've done it, you've introduced another bug. >>>> > >>>> > >>>>> > Putting en-gr will prevent 'en-gr' from being seen if it is a >>>> > >>>>> translation >>>> > >>>>> > file UNLESS application FORCES a base language (for example). >>>> > >>>>> > This means that 'behavior' and 'behaviour' will not be >>>> > >>>>> appropriately >>>> > >>>>> > picked up from a languages/en-gr.py file UNLESS EACH >>>> application >>>> > >>>>> forces >>>> > >>>>> > language to 'en-us' (or some other, non-[en-gr] language). >>>> > >>>> > >>>>> > For example, a 'en-us' app will NOT be able (with this app) to >>>> > >>>>> correctly >>>> > >>>>> > display to someone in England, who has their language set as >>>> 'en-gr'. >>>> > >>>> > >>>>> > Please fix this in trunk: to ['en-us']; ['en-us', 'en'] >>>> would >>>> > >>>>> also work >>>> > >>>>> > appropriately and be acceptable. >>>> > >>>> > >>>>> > - Yarko >>>> > >>>> > >>>>> > > Massimo >>>> > >>>> > >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> >> > --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "web2py-users" group. 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