Hi Graham, I have not contributed any code to web2py yet, but I am one of the many happy users. I'd like to share some of my thoughts:
On Sep 1, 1:53 pm, Graham Dumpleton <graham.dumple...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > Various people in the wider community liken some of what is done by > Massimo and you as web2py users as advertising and having advertising > pushed down your throat is not something that is appreciated in the > Open Source community. Now I know that Massimo sees it as advocacy, > but that isn't how it is seen by others. Personally some of what I > have seen is more akin to evangelism or fanaticism to an extreme and > like I don't like having mormons knocking on my door trying to push > their religion, I don't look favourably at people trying to promote > things in that way. I actually think not enough "advertising" has happened for web2py. In fact, when I was comparing various python frameworks, I completely missed out web2py and accidentally stumbled on it thanks to wiki.python.org. As an example, people like me from the Linux community usually go to sourceforge, icewalkers or freshmeat to look for software. web2py was not to be found at any of these places. ( I am updating freshmeat.net and icewalker.com when a new web2py release happens) I did happen to read the reddit rant against MDP: I think Massimo was polite and helpful, whereas the other guy was just being abusive. I did not add any of my own responses to avoid a flare up. My suggestion to MDP is probably not to post on reddit (seems not a friendly place). > > So, if you want to promote web2py, you really need to adjust your > thinking as about the best way of doing that. Trying to do it by > advertising, advocacy, evangelism or whatever you want to call it as > you are doing now, isn't necessarily working. Further, for an OSS project, the word advertising probably is inappropriate. Ads some how are linked back to money and if you stick around this forum, it is clear that Massimo is not interested in money , but rather, keen on building a top class web framework in python. We call it advocacy. Advocacy means getting the word out there, answering questions, stopping FUD. If you are active in the Linux community, you will encounter advocacy at every turn. Why not web2py? After all it is GPL'd > > One thing that would give much more credibility is if prominent people > in the web2py community, including Massimo, actually reached out to > other projects in the Python community, instead of just seeming to try > and take from them, and gave back to them in some way. There are some new posts from Massimo explaining the collaboration happening with jpolite, pyjamas etc. So I'll skip that part. Web2py is being built on top of python, cherrypy etc. When we (web2py community members) find some interesting bug or enhancement to the underlying software, we will definitely provide the info to the relevant project. But "fixing" upstream code bases need not be our priority or fixation. This same fixation exists in the linux community against Ubuntu project, so I can understand. (google for the details) The entire web2py codebase is FOSS. If attracting ASP/PHP/Java developers to python framework is important, web2py is playing its role by creating a Free, easy to use, featureful software. It is part of the python software ecosystem where Django, Pylons, TG, Grok etc exist. Web2py is another option for a python framework user. It enlarges the options available. This is the contributing back bit, I think. > And no I don't > mean going out and trying to convert them to your religion. Instead > build your profile through blogging about how to use web2py, but also > blog about other non web2py stuff which is useful to other people who > don't use web2py. There are many channels of communicating (y)our views. Blogs, forum/ml posts, interviews, software listings (eg: download.com), podcasts, video uploads, articles in Python Mag or Linux Journal, twittering, "Made with" labels etc etc. They all achieve the same goal: Advocacy. Why is blogging better than reddit posts? >Over time people will see you as a knowledgeable > person in their own right who just happens to use web2py. That > positive association can only be of benefit to web2py. You could also > consider contributing code to other Python projects and join in some > of the joint discussions about moving forward stuff like WSGI > component mechanisms. At the moment the web2py community is seen to a > degree as being elitist and looking down at the rest of the Python > community with a measure of arrogance. I strongly object to your use of the word "arrogance". It is very unfair. I have been on this group for a few months and have never encountered any arrogance from *any* member. All questions, including those that have already been answered are replied politely. Massimo has put lots of effort to provide fair comparisons against other frameworks. This happens all the time with all software. It is very useful for new comers. if there are errors in the slides, anyone is free to point out and get it corrected. It is not indicative of arrogance. > > Instead of reaching out and helping, what you instead see at the > moment is attempts at self promotion on places like comments on > reddit. Such comments are usually of the form 'use web2py', but more > often than not have very little substance beyond that as to why web2py > might be a viable choice. A reddit or forum post needs to be brief and cannot delve into the whys and hows. The official documentation, videos etc exist for that purpose. > In other words, the arguments in support of > we2bpy are quite shallow. Like what? Any specific examples? We (users) think there are many fine reasons to use web2py in our projects. eg: - GPL with commercial exception for our own apps - Small, easy to grok codebase - Easy to get patches , new features added - GAE support - Responsive forum and developers. - Friendly community. - Very well written documentation (pdf, book) - Just works - Many nice technical features (routes, DAL etc) > And Massimo, you really need to stop calling > on web2py users to do comment spamming like that. I am not really > surprised if reddit had instigated a ban on web2py related posts > because of this, it just isn't something the Open Source community is > likely to appreciate. Being the project leader, Massimo has the right to call on the (happy) users to spread the word. How is that wrong? The call here is not for astroturfing, but to demo, explain web2py to people who have not used it. This is the only way FOSS projects gain new users. Commercial firms such as Microsoft or Apple can use an ad-blitz, we can't > > In summary, stop isolating yourself off and instead participate in a > meaningful way with the wider community rather than taking the stance > that you have the best thing since sliced bread and being openly > dismissive of other projects and/or people who may critique web2py. > You also need to shift from chanting that web2py is the best to > showing why it is good. This needs to include to a degree addressing > the perception that web2py is really a one man show. > > Personally, the way the web2py community comes across and the way > individuals carry themselves is why I have tended never to provide any > assistance in relation to mod_wsgi when using web2py. I believe > Massimo over time has identified that how the web2py community is seen > is a problem and has tried to take some positive steps to remedy that, > and why I have started contributing a little, but you still have a way > to go as some of the decisions really just seem to carry along in the > same footsteps. > > PS. I also do not appreciate getting rants in my personal inbox. Feel > free to discuss this here on the web2py list, but I don't want any > hate in my inbox as I know others have got when they have said things > viewed as less than positive about the web2py community. :-) Graham, while we thank you for airing your views on this forum rather than elsewhere, I think there are not enough facts to backup your arguments, at least to me. There are certain valid points too and thank you for that! I have posted this response to express my opinion. I have tried to be polite. If some words are inappropriate, please don't be offended. That was not my intention. Regards Anand > > Graham > --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "web2py-users" group. To post to this group, send email to web2py@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to web2py+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/web2py?hl=en -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~---
