web2py looks interesting but I'm surprised to see discussions about a technology that are more like the conversations I hear regarding team sport - my team is better etc.
I suppose open source technology is a team event, eh? Thanks to all who contribute information and examples, they help me a lot, especially the examples and answers to questions posted by others. It is useful advocacy. On Sep 1, 9:54 pm, mdipierro <mdipie...@cs.depaul.edu> wrote: > Hi Graham, > > On some issues I agree and on others I disagree. The fact, > particularly in the early days, I was the only advocate of web2py. > That was bad. Also the way I did it was bad. It was because of > ignorance about the ways of the open source community. > > One some points I disagree. > > You say "if [...] Massimo, actually reached out to > other projects in the Python community, instead of just seeming to try > and take from them, and gave back to them in some way" > > I am not sure what you mean. Web2py does not include any third party > code except for wsgiserver.py, portlocker.py, fcgi.py and some > javascript. Almost all the code was written by us. I claim we are > giving much more than we took. Moreover even if we included code > compatibly with the original licenses I have always contacted the > authors of those libraries and asked for permission. think the problem > is the opposite as I will explain later. > > You also say: "And Massimo, you really need to stop calling on web2py > users to do comment spamming like that". > Perhaps you are not aware of this post: > > http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.comp.python.web2py/10358/focus=10665 > > and the following thread. Users suggested it is appropriate to inform > them about web2py related news. I never ask users to comment on > specific threads. > > There is one difference between web2py and other projects that some in > the community do not like: We try to write all code in house vs using > third party libraries. This is a distinct feature of web2py. I know at > least one person in particular who really does not like this. In > fact, because I decided not to include his module (which is already > popular but was not necessary in web2py) he started posting comments > everywhere denigrating web2py and that forced me to respond. > I also know a few people in the Python community who think that there > should be only one framework and only one ORM and who, as consequence, > consistently voted against web2py at pycon 2008 and 2009. > > This is not going to change. Web2py contributors are doing an > excellent job. We are not going to replace our modules with third > party modules just to make friends. We will do if/when we think the > other code is better and does not violate licenses and does not break > backward compatibility. > > I am not bitter vs the Python community despite two pycon talk > rejections. I admire this community and I think I have been very clear > about that. I start all my talks on web2py by thanking the creators of > Django, Pylons and TurboGears for proving excellent frameworks from > which I learned a lot (and who has been at my talks can confirm). Yet > I do not think the Python community has any reason to be bitter at me > (us?) and, in fact, I do not believe this is the case. > > I believe there is a very vocal minority of people who oppose to > web2py because they have invested time and money in other frameworks > and who spread false rumors about web2py. When I read something false > I respond to them, I will continue to do it and so should members of > this community. > > I think our community is friendly and we you will not find one post > from a member of this community that is offensive or denigrating vs > other web frameworks. > > Are we elitists? No, because that assumes feeling superior for > something that we have and others don't. In our case we do feel > superior for using web2py (vs, let's say using php) but we also give > away web2py and thus give everybody else the option to join our group. > > Massimo > > On Sep 1, 12:53 am, Graham Dumpleton <graham.dumple...@gmail.com> > wrote: > > > > > On Sep 1, 2:33 pm, Iceberg <iceb...@21cn.com> wrote: > > > > Weheh, I have to say, you are a bad, bad guy. Because when I saw the > > > title of your post, I was ready for a fight and rushed to see your > > > post. But after reading, I lost the reason to make a heated-up > > > dispute. :-) > > > I would be regarded as an outsider here, but I am going to be blunt > > here and say that you as users of web2py have to temper your > > enthusiasm and tendency to attack when anyone says anything that might > > seem the least bit critical, as the way it comes across, as seen by > > outsiders like myself who monitor many web projects in the Python > > community, is not particularly positive and reflects badly on the > > web2py community. > > > Various people in the wider community liken some of what is done by > > Massimo and you as web2py users as advertising and having advertising > > pushed down your throat is not something that is appreciated in the > > Open Source community. Now I know that Massimo sees it as advocacy, > > but that isn't how it is seen by others. Personally some of what I > > have seen is more akin to evangelism or fanaticism to an extreme and > > like I don't like having mormons knocking on my door trying to push > > their religion, I don't look favourably at people trying to promote > > things in that way. > > > So, if you want to promote web2py, you really need to adjust your > > thinking as about the best way of doing that. Trying to do it by > > advertising, advocacy, evangelism or whatever you want to call it as > > you are doing now, isn't necessarily working. > > > One thing that would give much more credibility is if prominent people > > in the web2py community, including Massimo, actually reached out to > > other projects in the Python community, instead of just seeming to try > > and take from them, and gave back to them in some way. And no I don't > > mean going out and trying to convert them to your religion. Instead > > build your profile through blogging about how to use web2py, but also > > blog about other non web2py stuff which is useful to other people who > > don't use web2py. Over time people will see you as a knowledgeable > > person in their own right who just happens to use web2py. That > > positive association can only be of benefit to web2py. You could also > > consider contributing code to other Python projects and join in some > > of the joint discussions about moving forward stuff like WSGI > > component mechanisms. At the moment the web2py community is seen to a > > degree as being elitist and looking down at the rest of the Python > > community with a measure of arrogance. > > > Instead of reaching out and helping, what you instead see at the > > moment is attempts at self promotion on places like comments on > > reddit. Such comments are usually of the form 'use web2py', but more > > often than not have very little substance beyond that as to why web2py > > might be a viable choice. In other words, the arguments in support of > > we2bpy are quite shallow. And Massimo, you really need to stop calling > > on web2py users to do comment spamming like that. I am not really > > surprised if reddit had instigated a ban on web2py related posts > > because of this, it just isn't something the Open Source community is > > likely to appreciate. > > > In summary, stop isolating yourself off and instead participate in a > > meaningful way with the wider community rather than taking the stance > > that you have the best thing since sliced bread and being openly > > dismissive of other projects and/or people who may critique web2py. > > You also need to shift from chanting that web2py is the best to > > showing why it is good. This needs to include to a degree addressing > > the perception that web2py is really a one man show. > > > Personally, the way the web2py community comes across and the way > > individuals carry themselves is why I have tended never to provide any > > assistance in relation to mod_wsgi when using web2py. I believe > > Massimo over time has identified that how the web2py community is seen > > is a problem and has tried to take some positive steps to remedy that, > > and why I have started contributing a little, but you still have a way > > to go as some of the decisions really just seem to carry along in the > > same footsteps. > > > PS. I also do not appreciate getting rants in my personal inbox. Feel > > free to discuss this here on the web2py list, but I don't want any > > hate in my inbox as I know others have got when they have said things > > viewed as less than positive about the web2py community. :-) > > > Graham > > > > PS: It doesn't need a native English speaker to understand your humor. > > > I am from China too. :-) > > > > Iceberg > > > > On Sep1, 10:00am, weheh <richard_gor...@verizon.net> wrote: > > > > > I've been using web2py for around 6 months now and I thought I'd share > > > > a bunch of reasons why I think web2py is a bad thing all around. > > > > > I used to be an expert at all sorts of things in order to build my > > > > websites. I developed a whole python infrastructure over a couple of > > > > years that mostly enforced a MVC development structure. With it, I > > > > could get a new website, like a photo gallery website, roughed-in in > > > > under a week. I had a bunch of tricks up my sleeve, written in > > > > javascript, css, cookies, AJAX, Apache, MySQL, html, XML, and other > > > > arcane stuff. It was a steep learning curve and frustrating having to > > > > learn all those different languages, but it gave me big mental muscles > > > > and a big ego to go along with them. My websites were reasonbly > > > > consistent looking and did a few nifty grpahics tricks to boot. They > > > > stood up pretty well to lots of page hits. > > > > > Now, I only use what comes in the web2py package and my sites look way > > > > more consistent, do more graphics tricks, and use a ton less code. My > > > > websites never break and I rarely check in on them to see if they're > > > > working. They just work. I can develop the look and feel of the site > > > > before writing the database and controller code. The photo-gallery > > > > site that took a week to develop ... I can now do in an afternoon. > > > > Another site that took me months to develop ... I'm on the way to > > > > implementing it in a couple of weeks. I have so much extra time on my > > > > hand that I find myself worrying about > > ... > > read more » --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "web2py-users" group. To post to this group, send email to web2py@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to web2py+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/web2py?hl=en -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~---
