I have a question. The specific gravity is an indicator of the
concentration of the sulphuric acid in the cell as I understand it.
If the SG is very high (as reported) then the sulphate ions must be
mostly in the electrolyte and not on the plates. This makes me ask,
how can it be that the pla
Larry, the customer has been fully charging and equalizing every week to two
weeks for several years. They also are diligent about checking the batteries
with a hydrometer. It turns out then that I, and the customer, have put too
much faith in hydrometer readings to give an accurate picture of b
ovember 17, 2011 12:25 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] intermittent battery problem; ...Battery Sulfation
wow, thanks for the information. hopefully they will have them in production
in 20 years when my current "beta set" finally dies. c&d and others make em,
but
s-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of
toddc...@finestplanet.com
Sent: Thursday, November 17, 2011 12:25 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] intermittent battery problem; ...Battery
Sulfation
wow, thanks for the information. hopefully they will have them in production
in 20 years w
Ron,
>From what Daryl said below and the fact that your customer has about 15 amps
>of PV charge, you should deduct that the batteries have MOSTLY been deficit
>charged their entire life. Here's what I told you on Oct 22 in my lengthy
>explanation about what the problem is and why it happene
wow, thanks for the information. hopefully they will have them in production in 20 years when my current "beta set" finally dies. c&d and others make em, but they are more expensive.
todd
On Thursday, November 17, 2011 11:15am, "Richard L Ratico" said:
> Todd,> > I asked Surrette about th
Todd,
I asked Surrette about their lead calcium batteries this morning, right after
reading your post. Here's their reply:
I'm afraid our flooded calcium line is not yet available. Product testing went
very well but at this time our present high demand for our other product lines
has prevented u
Ron,
I'm going to reiterate what Jeff says here. It is similar to what I had
said in my email. The charge rate must REGULARLY be C10 on the KS
(5000 series) batteries. This means, on KS 25's, a routine bulk
charging rate of 135 amps. I find that on these types of hybrid
systems, while the batte
I digress but... the best battery for grid tie with backup is not lead
antimony, but lead calcuum. Surrette makes these too and they use next to no
water and have a much longer warrantied life.
Todd
On Wednesday, November 16, 2011 6:52pm, "Jeff Yago" said:
No doubt these would be g
Ron,
This reply a little late since I have been off line a few days. I mentioned
in a similar thread last year that I had an off grid home client I designed
and installed in Idaho back in 1998 that had a Kohler 8.5 kw generator, a
Trace 4024 inverter, two separate solar arrays and Outback char
You're correct Larry, my apologies. Been burning the candle at both ends.
Thanks for your input.
On 2011-11-16, at 9:04 AM, Larry Crutcher, Starlight Solar Power Systems wrote:
> Ron, you have misquoted me so yes you are wrong. It is not about getting to
> 32 volts. Go read it again.
>
> On No
Ron, you have misquoted me so yes you are wrong. It is not about getting to 32
volts. Go read it again.
On Nov 16, 2011, at 12:20 AM, Ron Young wrote:
> Hi Daryl. I've got other KS25's in hybrid systems (wind gen & solar) that
> seem to do fine over the last several years. The Ouback 3524 has a
>>
>> Also, why have you not installed a battery monitor yet? It will give you
>> "eyes" into the battery and spare countless hours of time diagnosing the
>> problem.
>>
>> Larry
>>
>> Original Message
>> Subject: R
Hi Daryl. I've got other KS25's in hybrid systems (wind gen & solar) that seem
to do fine over the last several years. The Ouback 3524 has an 85 amp charger.
There was no problem getting to 32 v and holding it for eight hours. This has
been done twice now. Larry and others attribute the abilit
picture.
>
> Also, why have you not installed a battery monitor yet? It will give you
> "eyes" into the battery and spare countless hours of time diagnosing the
> problem.
>
> Larry
>
> Original Message
> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] int
Ron,
What comes to mind for me is that Surrette 5000 series batteries like
to have a regular charge of C10. KS25 cells are rated for 1350 ah,
creating a need for a somewhat regularly occurring charge of 135 amps.
I do believe the batteries are not ever getting that, except for very
rare occasio
alled a battery monitor yet? It will give you "eyes" into the battery and spare countless hours of time diagnosing the problem.Larry
Original Message ----
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] intermittent battery problem; ...Battery
Sulfation
From: Ron Young <solarea...@solareagle.com&g
Hi Ron,
Here is what I would do.
1. install a amp hr meter
without this you have no idea of what is going in/out. So when they mention
the batteries drop rapidly to 22.8, they can now see how many amps are going
out.
2. record voltages to 2 decimal places of each battery when these anomalies
Folks, this one really has me puzzled. The client has done regular two hour
EQ's, at least once a month. When did a site visit and I topped up the
electrolyte (they'd been starving the batteries for water but always just above
the plates) the problem seemed to go away. They were satisfied that t
Hi Ron,Accurate SG readings are not simple. Was temperature compensation properly employed? Have they been keeping a log book to identify changes? How accurate is the hydrometer? How skilled is the person taking the reading? Most of the Battery Wrench responses suggest equalization but I don't see
are applied. May be a Friday night/Saturday AM
event if the owner works during the week.
Dan
--- On Mon, 10/24/11, Allan Sindelar wrote:
From: Allan Sindelar
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] intermittent battery problem; ...Battery Sulfation
To: "RE-wrenches"
Date: Monday, October 24, 20
Ron,
Sorry to beat a dead horse, but a Pentametric will reveal what happens at 4am
(or any other time). At a minimum all you need is the sending unit, 2-3 shunts
and the serial converter. You then use your laptop to download and analyze what
happened in the past few days, etc. of course, the di
Ron,
You have made a connection that I would not have made, and while I may be
wrong here, it has got me thinking. I have never equated low water level
with SG, nor have I ever read in battery maintenance guides that I should
maintain a particular water level before measuring SG. I'm not convinced
Hi Larry,
I immediately assumed sulphated battery when I heard the customers description
a couple of weeks ago but the hydrometer readings didn't jive. Any sulphated
battery I've encountered, and I defer to your greater experience, has always
revealed itself with a simple S.G. test and these ba
: Saturday, October 22, 2011 2:06 PM
> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] intermittent battery problem; ...Battery Sulfation
>
> Hi Ron,
>
> As many on this list have suggested, it sounds like a sulfated battery
> condition. In your last message you revealed something to me that abso
ches
Sent: Saturday, October 22, 2011 2:06 PM
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] intermittent battery problem; ...Battery Sulfation
Hi Ron,
As many on this list have suggested, it sounds like a sulfated battery
condition. In your last message you revealed something to me that absolutely
confirms this b
Hi Ron,
As many on this list have suggested, it sounds like a sulfated battery
condition. In your last message you revealed something to me that absolutely
confirms this but perhaps you didn't recognize it.
Battery voltage readings are deceiving because they do not indicate capacity.
25.7 vol
I've seen behavior like that from Series 5000 Rolls that were only a
year old, but chronically under charged. (20 amp load and the inverter
would reach low shut off in minutes, 30 amp charge and it hit high
voltage and quit charging) Any other battery, and I would assume its
capacity was gone.
-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of David Katz
Sent: Saturday, October 22, 2011 11:01 AM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] intermittent battery problem
Ron,
I don't think it was the water. It was probably the 10 hours they ran the
generator that brought them up a bit
-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Ron Young
Sent: Friday, October 21, 2011 11:39 AM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] intermittent battery problem
Hi Maverick & everyone,
I visited the site a couple of days ago an
the sunfrost has a very small compressor, which makes me very suspect that it
could cause such a big bank to move at all.
I would suggest just running some big loads like a skill saw etc, and see what
happens.
A bad connection/battery should appear with any large load. It would show up as
low ba
, in addition to checking the acid, to get the whole story. It is common for L-16s to look great as far as specific gravity goes, but be useless when a load is applied.
Original Message
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] intermittent battery problem
From: mac Lewis <maclew...@gmail.co
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of
> m...@hurshtown.com
> Sent: Tuesday, October 11, 2011 4:55 PM
> To: RE-wrenches
> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] intermittent battery problem
>
> I would load test each battery individually using a common "toaster h
***
>
> AEE Solar
>
> ** **
>
> ** **
>
> *From:* re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:
> re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *
> m...@hurshtown.com
> *Sent:* Tuesday, October 11, 2011 4:55 PM
> *To:* RE-wrenches
>
> *Subject:* Re
problem
I would load test each battery individually using a common "toaster heating
element" tester.
I'm betting on a bum battery in the string.
Original Message --------
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] intermittent battery problem
From: Ron Young mailto:solarea...@solareagle.
I would load test each battery individually using a common "toaster heating element" tester.I'm betting on a bum battery in the string.
Original Message --------
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] intermittent battery problem
From: Ron Young <solarea...@solareagle.com>
nches.org] On Behalf Of Ron Young
Sent: Tuesday, October 11, 2011 2:00 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] intermittent battery problem
Wrenches,
I received some additional info from the customer this morning. They have
asked me to hold off my visit until they get a few more clues but some
Wrenches,
I received some additional info from the customer this morning. They have asked
me to hold off my visit until they get a few more clues but some of what they
are telling me doesn't necessarily jive with a sulphated battery. Would
appreciate comments - here's a quote from their email:
As always, impressed and gratified by the number of thoughtful replies from
Wrenches, thank you again! It looks like a hefty EQ is in order. I've
successfully recovered badly sulphated batteries by putting them through
multiple charge/EQ/discharge cycles on more than occasion. Will check out tha
Ron-We've seen this issue before,and it is almost always due to badly sulfated batteries. I'd try a LONG (8-12 hrs) EQ charge at 32 volts. We've done this with Hawkers and fixed the problem. I believe the Surrettes could handle this kind of charge, though you might contact Jamie Surrette.
Jonathan
. A trimetric will help them keep up.
> David Katz
>
> From: Ron Young [mailto:solarea...@solareagle.com]
> Sent: Saturday, October 08, 2011 06:42 PM
> To: RE-wrenches
> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] intermittent battery problem
>
> Thanks Bob but he has a tubular type
Hello Ron,
To me, battery AH monitoring is a vitally important component when designing an
off grid RE system. There are 10's of thousands of reasons why, aka customers
that have unwittingly ruined batteries. It is not a luxury item; for a tiny
percentage of the system cost you can add this inv
efficiency at 80% from then on.
From: David Katz
To: "'re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org'"
Sent: Saturday, October 8, 2011 8:55 PM
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] intermittent battery problem
How many years have they been off grid. It
them they need
to run the generator for 40 hours to catch up. Customers never like to hear
that. A trimetric will help them keep up.
David Katz
From: Ron Young [mailto:solarea...@solareagle.com]
Sent: Saturday, October 08, 2011 06:42 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] intermittent
Thanks Bob but he has a tubular type hydrometer, not the pointer type. They're
usually ok but I'll check it against mine when I go there which looks like a
certainty.
They EQ the batteries on a regular basis as per my instructions (they say) but
will have to nail them down on that. The small 25
I bet he has a cheap pointer type hydrometer, I have seen them be way off
from reality.
My guess is that the gravity is low the voltage changes quickly, specific
gravity changes slowly in a battery bank.
To fully charge a 24 volt bank you need to get it to 29 + volts and keep it
there for several
loser to 30 volts after 2 hours of
> charging if it had even a 50% charge.
> David Katz
>
> From: Ron Young [mailto:solarea...@solareagle.com]
> Sent: Saturday, October 08, 2011 11:31 AM
> To: RE-wrenches
> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] intermittent battery problem
>
>
ter 2 hours of charging if it
had even a 50% charge.
David Katz
From: Ron Young [mailto:solarea...@solareagle.com]
Sent: Saturday, October 08, 2011 11:31 AM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] intermittent battery problem
There is no amp hour meter in the system. The dump load on the Wh
We always put meters on the system. We typically use just pentametric sending
unit and a serial converter with 3 shunts. Then you can hook your PC and get
details on what's going on. I also recommend giving the customer a 60$ DVM like
the ideal brand or an old fluke.
As far as your current sit
] intermittent battery problem
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There is no amp hour meter in the system. The dump load on the Whisper sounds
like a possibility... Batteries are 4ks21 Surrettes with an 1100 a/h rating
@20hr rate and should have plenty of life left in them. They have been eq'd on
a regular basis and maintenance has been good. Alas the custome
HI Ron,
Do you have an amp hr meter in the system?
When you say 15 min of genny brings the batteries back up, back up to what as
you also say, 2 hrs later they are at 25.8v?
I would guess the problem is the dump load controller on the Whisper, its
turing on for some reason, draining the batter
If it takes 2 hours of charging to get to 25.8, the batteries are very
discharged. It should be that high as soon as you start charging with a decent
charger.
David Katz
From: Ron Young [mailto:solarea...@solareagle.com]
Sent: Saturday, October 08, 2011 11:01 AM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: [RE-wre
How old are the batteries? Did you do the hydrometer reading, or are you
relying on info from the customer. It is easy toi misread a hydrometer. When
was the last time the batteries were at 30+ volts?
David Katz
From: Ron Young [mailto:solarea...@solareagle.com]
Sent: Saturday, October 08, 2011
Ron:
Have you checked the voltage on the individual batteries during a low
voltage incident? You need to know if all the batteries have equally low
voltage or if there is a specific battery with this problem.
Another possibility is a connection that is intermittently resistive. We
spend a
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