Re: PyCon Feedback and Volunteers (Re: Pycon disappointment)

In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, fumanchu <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >On Mar 16, 5:09 pm, [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Aahz) wrote: >> >> If you did not like the programming this year (aside from the sponsor >> talks) and you did not participate in organizing PyCon or in delivering >> presentations, it is Y

Re: Pycon disappointment

In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Barry Hawkins <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > >I'll step out and say that some of the non-vendor talks were quite >weak. The most severe was a talk on Stackless where the original >speaker was unable to be here and someone got up and clicked through >the slide deck at

Re: Pycon disappointment

On Mar 20, 2:53 pm, Erich <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On Mar 20, 12:39 pm, Ed Leafe <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > On Mar 20, 2008, at 11:54 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > > > > Number Three: Too much code, not enough concept. > > > > Presenters this one's for you. I can't count the number

Re: Pycon disappointment

On Mar 20, 12:39 pm, Ed Leafe <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On Mar 20, 2008, at 11:54 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > > > Number Three: Too much code, not enough concept. > > > Presenters this one's for you. I can't count the number of > > presentations I attended where the presenter would click th

Re: Pycon disappointment

,,,... Let's see some code! Let's see > stuff working (and sometimes crashing!), and how changes affect the > results. When I've presented at PyCon and other conferences, that's > the part that I spend the most time on: preparing demonstrations. It's > not easy to do; certainly much more difficult

Re: Pycon disappointment

On Mar 20, 2008, at 11:54 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > Number Three: Too much code, not enough concept. > > Presenters this one's for you. I can't count the number of > presentations I attended where the presenter would click through three > slides of pycode just to show us a two or three-line

Re: Pycon disappointment

Okay! I just read this entire thread to be caught up. I am a first time PyCon-goer (as my previous post states). Because I have nothing to compare this year's experience to, I'll give it to you as I saw it. None of this is intended as a rant, (except maybe the lightning talk section;) Gripes --

Re: Pycon disappointment

On Mar 17, 1:20 am, Paul Rubin wrote: > Stephan Deibel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > > I have to admit, I'll keep coming to PyCon even if all the talks suck > > abysmally as long as there's good hallway time, open space, BoFs, and > > sprints. ;-) > > OK, so why not get r

Re: Pycon disappointment

On Mar 18, 12:55 pm, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > Amen on the diamond keynotes and lightning talks. The lightning talks > were a great disappointment. Sponsor talks (or any such talks pitched > at selling or recruiting) should go in their own, clearly labeled > group so those of us who don't care abo

Re: PyCon Feedback and Volunteers (Re: Pycon disappointment)

On Mar 19, 6:07 am, Jeff Schwab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > As I have never attended PyCon, the amount of entertainment already > gleaned from this thread has wildly exceeded my expectations. :) Are > slides or notes from any of the presentations available online? What > was the topic of the wel

Re: PyCon Feedback and Volunteers (Re: Pycon disappointment)

Mike Driscoll wrote: > On Mar 18, 1:41 pm, fumanchu <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> On Mar 17, 6:25 pm, dundeemt <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> >>> I agree - the balance wasn't as good. We can all agree that HowTos >>> and Intros are a necessary part of the conference talks track, but as >>> Robert p

Re: PyCon Feedback and Volunteers (Re: Pycon disappointment)

On Mar 18, 1:41 pm, fumanchu <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On Mar 17, 6:25 pm, dundeemt <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > I agree - the balance wasn't as good. We can all agree that HowTos > > and Intros are a necessary part of the conference talks track, but as > > Robert pointed out some talks sho

Re: Pycon disappointment

On Mar 18, 1:49 pm, Mike Orr <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On Mar 16, 6:10 am, Bruce Eckel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > vendors: > > On top of that, the quality of the presentations was unusually low. > > I did feel that. An advanced track would be a good idea. Because > you do need to repeat stuf

Re: PyCon Feedback and Volunteers (Re: Pycon disappointment)

On Mar 17, 6:25 pm, dundeemt <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > I agree - the balance wasn't as good. We can all agree that HowTos > and Intros are a necessary part of the conference talks track, but as > Robert pointed out some talks should be of a more advanced nature. I > enjoy those that stretch my

Re: Pycon disappointment

On Mar 16, 6:10 am, Bruce Eckel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: vendors: > But it gets worse. The lightning talks, traditionally the best, newest > and edgiest part of the conference, were also sold like commercial air > time. We introduced sponsor lighting talks last year. This year it got out of han

Re: Pycon disappointment

Amen on the diamond keynotes and lightning talks. The lightning talks were a great disappointment. Sponsor talks (or any such talks pitched at selling or recruiting) should go in their own, clearly labeled group so those of us who don't care about them can avoid them. If there must diamond 'keynot

Re: Pycon disappointment

On Mon, 17 Mar 2008 14:36:29 -0500, "J. Clifford Dyer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >Note to speakers: do not say > > x, y = tee(foo) > >say > > from itertools import tee > x, y = tee(foo) > >or better (for pedagogical purposes) > > import itertools > x, y = itertools.tee(foo) > I was sc

Re: Pycon disappointment

On Mar 16, 7:10 am, Bruce Eckel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > If the following seems unnecessarily harsh, it was even more harsh for > me to discover that the time and money I had spent to get to my > favorite conference had been sold to vendors, presenting me as a > captive audience they could pitc

Re: PyCon Feedback and Volunteers (Re: Pycon disappointment)

On Mar 17, 10:35 am, fumanchu <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On Mar 16, 5:09 pm, [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Aahz) wrote: > > > fumanchu <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > This is my third PyCon, and I've found a reasonably-sized cadre of > > > people who come for the hallway conversations plus a Bof or two, >

Re: Pycon disappointment

> This is my third PyCon, and I've found a reasonably-sized cadre of > people who come for the hallway conversations plus a Bof or two, > having given up on hearing anything new, useful, or inspiring in the > talks. There are several people I know who would like to see a more > advanced academic tr

Re: Pycon disappointment

On Mar 16, 4:10 am, Bruce Eckel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > If the following seems unnecessarily harsh, it was even more harsh for > me to discover that the time and money I had spent to get to my > favorite conference had been sold to vendors, presenting me as a > captive audience they could pitc

Re: Pycon disappointment

On Mar 17, 2:52 pm, Dianne Marsh <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > I'm bummed about the lightning talks at PyCon from 2008, but I have a > lot of confidence based on what I have read here from Jacob and > others, that things will be different in 2009. They will! This year's lightning talks[*] were disa

Re: Pycon disappointment

This was my first PyCon as well. I had heard glowing recommendations about the lightning talks (from Bruce) previously, and I was really looking forward to them. I, too, was disappointed. I help to organize a community based conference, and we have struggled with providing value for sponsors as

Re: Pycon disappointment

I just want to step in and offer my 2¢. This is my first PyCon, and I agree that a lot of the Lightning talks seemed pretty useless. Overall though, I had a great experience at this conference. I learned a lot; I met a lot of cool people; and I got really excited about new ideas to bring back ho

Re: Pycon disappointment

On Mar 16, 9:42 am, Mike Driscoll <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Do you mean the "official" presentations or the lightning talks? I > thought both were kind of bad. Jeff Rush was great in both of the > sessions I saw and the gaming presenters were also good. But I saw a > lot of people who had never

Re: PyCon Feedback and Volunteers (Re: Pycon disappointment)

On Mar 16, 5:09 pm, [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Aahz) wrote: > fumanchu <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > This is my third PyCon, and I've found a reasonably-sized cadre of > > people who come for the hallway conversations plus a Bof or two, > > having given up on hearing anything new, useful, or inspiring in

Re: PyCon Feedback and Volunteers ( Pycon disappointment)

In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Torsten Bronger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >Aahz writes: >> In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, >> Torsten Bronger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >>> >>> I see no reason why the "fault" for parts of the rest being >>> sub-optimal, too, must necessarily be on the attendee's

Re: PyCon Feedback and Volunteers ( Pycon disappointment)

On Mar 17, 8:16 am, [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Aahz) wrote: > In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, > Torsten Bronger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > >Carl Banks writes: > >> On Mar 16, 10:49 pm, Brian Jones <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > >>> On Mar 16, 8:09 pm, [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Aahz) wrote: > > If you

Re: Pycon disappointment

Bruce, I can't speak to your issues with the normal sessions, but your bad experience with the lightning talks was my fault. And, in apologizing to you, I hope that all the others on this thread who have expressed similar sentiments hear me too. Ultimately, we miscalculated in certain respects

Re: PyCon Feedback and Volunteers ( Pycon disappointment)

Hallöchen! Aahz writes: > In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, > Torsten Bronger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > >> [...] >> >> I see no reason why the "fault" for parts of the rest being >> sub-optimal, too, must necessarily be on the attendee's side. >> (Just hypothetically; I wasn't at PyCon.) > > Le

Re: Pycon disappointment

In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Paul Rubin wrote: >Stephan Deibel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: >> >> I have to admit, I'll keep coming to PyCon even if all the talks suck >> abysmally as long as there's good hallway time, open space, BoFs, and >> sprints. ;-) > >OK, so wh

Re: PyCon Feedback and Volunteers ( Pycon disappointment)

In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Torsten Bronger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >Carl Banks writes: >> On Mar 16, 10:49 pm, Brian Jones <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >>> On Mar 16, 8:09 pm, [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Aahz) wrote: If you did not like the programming this year (aside from the sponso

Re: PyCon Feedback and Volunteers (Re: Pycon disappointment)

Paul Boddie napisał(a): >> I haven't been to EuroPython even when it has been fairly nearby >> because the entrance fee was to high. But how do you help change >> something like that? > > You could join in and make your case. There was a more protracted > discussion than usual last year about fee

Re: Pycon disappointment

On Mar 16, 10:20 am, Barry Hawkins <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > I shared the same perception as Bruce; most "keynotes" > and lightning talks were anemic vendor pitches that really gutted the > spirit of what I experienced last year.   I don't think you can lump the keynotes in with the lightning t

Re: PyCon Feedback and Volunteers (Re: Pycon disappointment)

On 17 Mar, 02:39, "BJörn Lindqvist" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > I haven't been to EuroPython even when it has been fairly nearby > because the entrance fee was to high. But how do you help change > something like that? You could join in and make your case. There was a more protracted discussion

Re: [PyCON-Organizers] FWD: PyCon Feedback and Volunteers (Re: Pycon disappointment)

Aahz wrote: > FYI > > - Forwarded message from Aahz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> - > > From: Aahz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Newsgroups: comp.lang.python > Subject: PyCon Feedback and Volunteers (Re: Pycon disappointment) > Date: 16 Mar 2008 17:09:02 -0

Re: Pycon disappointment

> But vendors often don't label themselves as vendors. And often, the > researcher or individual in question, who has something worth saying, does > have a professional job of sorts, which might be related to his or her > work > or speech. I've heard people give very long, detailed talks about >

Re: Pycon disappointment

Stephan Deibel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > I have to admit, I'll keep coming to PyCon even if all the talks suck > abysmally as long as there's good hallway time, open space, BoFs, and > sprints. ;-) OK, so why not get rid of all the talks and other stuff, and just have a basically structureless

Re: PyCon Feedback and Volunteers ( Pycon disappointment)

Hallöchen! Carl Banks writes: > On Mar 16, 10:49 pm, Brian Jones <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> On Mar 16, 8:09 pm, [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Aahz) wrote: >> >>> If you did not like the programming this year (aside from the >>> sponsor talks) and you did not participate in organizing PyCon >>> or in del

Europython fees (was PyCon Disappointment)

Björn wrote: >I haven't been to EuroPython even when it has been fairly nearby >because the entrance fee was to high. But how do you help change >something like that? Last year rates were: 100 Euros for early bird, 160 Euros for later registration, 65 Euros for early students and 85 Euros for la

Re: Pycon disappointment

On 16 Mrz., 21:52, Bruce Eckel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On Mar 16, 2:48 pm, Pete Forde <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > My friends and I decided to stage a grassroots Ruby conference this > > summer; it will have no paid sponsors for exactly this reason. We're > > trying to change up the typica

Re: Pycon disappointment

On Mar 16, 6:10 am, Bruce Eckel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > But it gets worse. The lightning talks, traditionally the best, newest > and edgiest part of the conference, were also sold like commercial air > time. Vendors were guaranteed first pick on lightning talk slots, and > we in the audience,

Re: PyCon Feedback and Volunteers (Re: Pycon disappointment)

On Mar 16, 10:49 pm, Brian Jones <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On Mar 16, 8:09 pm, [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Aahz) wrote: > > > If you did not like the programming this year (aside from the sponsor > > talks) and you did not participate in organizing PyCon or in delivering > > presentations, it is YOUR FA

Re: PyCon Feedback and Volunteers (Re: Pycon disappointment)

On Mar 16, 8:09 pm, [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Aahz) wrote: > If you did not like the programming this year (aside from the sponsor > talks) and you did not participate in organizing PyCon or in delivering > presentations, it is YOUR FAULT. PERIOD. EXCLAMATION POINT! I find this insulting, inexcusable,

Re: PyCon Feedback and Volunteers (Re: Pycon disappointment)

On Mon, Mar 17, 2008 at 12:32 AM, Paul Boddie <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On 17 Mar, 01:09, [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Aahz) wrote: > > > > PyCon is what YOU make of it. If you want to change PyCon, propose a > > presentation or join the conference committee (concom) -- the latter only > > requires s

Re: PyCon Feedback and Volunteers (Re: Pycon disappointment)

In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Ben Finney <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Aahz) writes: >> >> I would like to encourage anyone who was at PyCon but has not >> provided formal feedback to use the following URLs: > >For those who don't like to follow opaque munged URLs from services

Re: PyCon Feedback and Volunteers (Re: Pycon disappointment)

[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Aahz) writes: > I would like to encourage anyone who was at PyCon but has not > provided formal feedback to use the following URLs: For those who don't like to follow opaque munged URLs from services that give no indication where you'll end up, here are the actual URLs you'll a

Re: PyCon Feedback and Volunteers (Re: Pycon disappointment)

On 17 Mar, 01:09, [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Aahz) wrote: > > PyCon is what YOU make of it. If you want to change PyCon, propose a > presentation or join the conference committee (concom) -- the latter only > requires signing up for the pycon-organizers mailing list. > > This doesn't mean that we are unin

Re: Pycon disappointment

well, like, at least he left a free copy of his book on the web, that was kinda decent. 2008/3/16, [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: > > On Mar 16, 2:43 pm, Robert Hicks <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > On Mar 16, 12:38 pm, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > > > > > On Mar 16, 6:10 am, Bruce Eckel <[EM

PyCon Feedback and Volunteers (Re: Pycon disappointment)

[warning: rant ahead] [[ Before starting my rant, I would like to encourage anyone who was at PyCon but has not provided formal feedback to use the following URLs: For the conference: http://tinyurl.com/2ara8u For the tutorials: http://tinyurl.com/2ew2pc ]] In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, fuman

Re: Pycon disappointment

On Mar 16, 2:43 pm, Robert Hicks <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On Mar 16, 12:38 pm, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > > > On Mar 16, 6:10 am, Bruce Eckel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > I think a lot of people have been caught up in the idea that we need > > > to commercialize Python, and ride some kind

Re: Pycon disappointment

In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Bruce Eckel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > If the following seems unnecessarily harsh, it was even more harsh for . As a relative noob to the Python world, (and lurker to the list :) ) I can't speak to differences from previous years. However, my impressions

Re: Pycon disappointment

On Mar 16, 2:48 pm, Pete Forde <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > My friends and I decided to stage a grassroots Ruby conference this > summer; it will have no paid sponsors for exactly this reason. We're > trying to change up the typical format as well: it's a single-track > event, no "keynotes", no sch

Re: Pycon disappointment

Tom Moertel organized a Perl conference with an interesting sponsorship policy, that may be worth considering. He posted about it on the reddit thread about this clp thread: http://reddit.com/info/6c9l6/comments/c03gli2 . (Disclaimer: I have no idea if that would work for pycon at all or in part,

Re: Pycon disappointment

> I know what the argument for the results of Pycon 2008 will be: we > needed the money. My answer: it's not worth it. If this is what you > have to do to grow the conference, then don't. If the choice is > between selling my experience to vendors and reducing the size of the > conference, then cut

Re: Pycon disappointment

On Mar 16, 12:38 pm, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > On Mar 16, 6:10 am, Bruce Eckel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > I think a lot of people have been caught up in the idea that we need > > to commercialize Python, and ride some kind of wave of publicity the > > way that Java and C# and Rails seem to h

Re: Pycon disappointment

On Mar 16, 6:10 am, Bruce Eckel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > I think a lot of people have been caught up in the idea that we need > to commercialize Python, and ride some kind of wave of publicity the > way that Java and C# and Rails seem to have done. This coming from someone who caught the Java

Re: Pycon disappointment

On Mar 16, 7:18 am, [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Aahz) wrote: > Bruce Eckel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > If the following seems unnecessarily harsh, it was even more harsh for > > me to discover that the time and money I had spent to get to my > > favorite conference had been sold to vendors, presenting m

Re: Pycon disappointment

On Mar 16, 6:10 am, Bruce Eckel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > But it gets worse. The lightning talks, traditionally the best, newest > and edgiest part of the conference, were also sold like commercial air > time. Thanks for being harsh here, Bruce. I've been responsible for organizing the lightnin

Re: Pycon disappointment

On Mar 16, 9:59 am, Fuzzyman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > This isn't new though. Last year (my only other PyCon) all the > sponsors gave lightning talks. The difference is that there were more > sponsors this year I guess... The difference (from my POV as the guy who helped plan and run the lightn

Re: Pycon disappointment

On Mar 16, 9:18 am, [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Aahz) wrote: > In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, > Bruce Eckel  <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > >If the following seems unnecessarily harsh, it was even more harsh for > >me to discover that the time and money I had spent to get to my > >favorite conference had b

Re: Pycon disappointment

> "It is easier to optimize correct code than to correct optimized code." > --Bill Harlan That's a great quote that I had not heard before. :-) Michael Foord http://www.manning.com/foord -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: Pycon disappointment

On Mar 16, 11:10 am, Bruce Eckel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: [snip..] > But it gets worse. The lightning talks, traditionally the best, newest > and edgiest part of the conference, were also sold like commercial air > time. Vendors were guaranteed first pick on lightning talk slots, and > we in the

Re: Pycon disappointment

2008/3/16, Aaron <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: > > > > In my opinion, open spaces should have had greater status and billing, > > with eyes-forward talks and vendor sessions offered only as possible > > alternatives. Especially, vendor sessions should not be presented as > > "keynotes" during plenary sessi

Re: Pycon disappointment

> In my opinion, open spaces should have had greater status and billing, > with eyes-forward talks and vendor sessions offered only as possible > alternatives. Especially, vendor sessions should not be presented as > "keynotes" during plenary sessions. I think it took a little while > for people

Re: Pycon disappointment

In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Bruce Eckel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > >If the following seems unnecessarily harsh, it was even more harsh for >me to discover that the time and money I had spent to get to my >favorite conference had been sold to vendors, presenting me as a >captive audience they

Re: Pycon disappointment

> But it gets worse. The lightning talks, traditionally the best, newest > and edgiest part of the conference, were also sold like commercial air > time. Vendors were guaranteed first pick on lightning talk slots, and > we in the audience, expectantly looking forward to interesting and > entertain

Re: Pycon disappointment

Bruce Eckel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > My trust has been violated. I paid a lot, in both money and time, to > be at this conference just to be herded into a room and have my > eyeballs sold to the highest bidder. Hear hear. Conference organisers, past and future, take note: Attention of atten

Pycon disappointment

If the following seems unnecessarily harsh, it was even more harsh for me to discover that the time and money I had spent to get to my favorite conference had been sold to vendors, presenting me as a captive audience they could pitch to. I believe that this year's Pycon organizers suffered from in