On Wed, Mar 30, 2016, Michael Rathbun wrote:
...
>An elephant superficially resembles a mouse. There are enormous structural
>differences.
An elephant is a mil-spec mouse.
Bill
--
INTERNET: b...@celestial.com Bill Campbell; Celestial Software LLC
URL: http://www.celestial.com/ PO Box 820; 6
ailop@mailop.org
Subject: Re: [mailop] Mail accepted by outlook.com/hotmail.com disappears.
For my org, I have all my filtering on a single server (well, a pair in
parallel, but you get my meaning). But that's not going to work for Hotmail.
Hotmail undoubtedly has multiple levels of filtering. E
On Wed, 30 Mar 2016 14:41:44 -0400, Rich Kulawiec wrote:
>Yes, but...
>
>If you can run a mail system *properly* for 50,000 people, then you can
>run it properly for 500 million. It's not really all that different
>or difficult.
You apparently have yet to run up against the version of the squ
my Windows Phone
From: Rich Kulawiec<mailto:r...@gsp.org>
Sent: 3/30/2016 11:48 AM
To: mailop@mailop.org<mailto:mailop@mailop.org>
Subject: Re: [mailop] Mail accepted by outlook.com/hotmail.com disappears.
On Wed, Mar 30, 2016 at 05:37:09PM +,
riginal Message-
From: mailop [mailto:mailop-boun...@mailop.org] On Behalf Of Rich Kulawiec
Sent: Wednesday, March 30, 2016 1:42 PM
To: mailop@mailop.org
Subject: Re: [mailop] Mail accepted by outlook.com/hotmail.com disappears.
On Wed, Mar 30, 2016 at 05:37:09PM +, Rodgers, Anthony (DTMB) wr
On Wed, Mar 30, 2016 at 05:37:09PM +, Rodgers, Anthony (DTMB) wrote:
> Which is exactly what framed the tenor of my question when I originally
> asked it. Very Large Providers operate at a scale and under commercial
> pressures that most of us (including me) cannot even imagine.
Yes, but...
I
, Michigan Cyber Security
-Original Message-
From: mailop [mailto:mailop-boun...@mailop.org] On Behalf Of Michael Wise
Sent: Tuesday, March 29, 2016 21:21
To: Rich Kulawiec ; mailop@mailop.org
Subject: Re: [mailop] Mail accepted by outlook.com/hotmail.com disappears.
OF COURSE!
THAT'S THE
On Tue, Mar 29, 2016 at 07:37:11PM -0700, Aaron C. de Bruyn wrote:
> Ok, I'll jump on that grenade. Have the engineers heard of Linux or BSD? ;)
Thank you for taking one for the team. It is indeed hard to say that
one's seriously competing in the Indy 500 when one shows up at the
starting line w
n C. de Bruyn
> Sent: 3/29/2016 7:45 PM
> To: Michael Wise
> Cc: Rich Kulawiec ; mailop@mailop.org
> Subject: Re: [mailop] Mail accepted by outlook.com/hotmail.com disappears.
>
> On Tue, Mar 29, 2016 at 7:39 PM, Michael Wise
> wrote:
>
>> Yes.
>> A dec
gt;
Subject: Re: [mailop] Mail accepted by outlook.com/hotmail.com disappears.
On Tue, Mar 29, 2016 at 7:39 PM, Michael Wise
mailto:michael.w...@microsoft.com>> wrote:
Yes.
A decade ago our service ran on it.
Yeah--that was my attempt at a bad joke.
I would have paid good money to be a fly
On Tue, Mar 29, 2016 at 7:39 PM, Michael Wise
wrote:
> Yes.
> A decade ago our service ran on it.
>
Yeah--that was my attempt at a bad joke.
I would have paid good money to be a fly on the wall during the Hotmail
conversion.
-A
___
mailop mailing lis
p.org>;
mailop@mailop.org<mailto:mailop@mailop.org>
Subject: Re: [mailop] Mail accepted by outlook.com/hotmail.com disappears.
On Tue, Mar 29, 2016 at 6:53 PM, Michael Wise
mailto:michael.w...@microsoft.com>> wrote:
Oh wait, that means we have to get 10x the number of servers ..
On Tue, Mar 29, 2016 at 6:53 PM, Michael Wise
wrote:
> Oh wait, that means we have to get 10x the number of servers ... and data
> centers.
>
> Actually, the measures I outlined require *fewer* servers, less storage,
> and (in most cases) less network bandwidth.
>
> Our engineers tell managem
Our engineers tell management otherwise.
Aloha,
Michael.
--
Sent from my Windows Phone
From: Rich Kulawiec<mailto:r...@gsp.org>
Sent: 3/29/2016 6:46 PM
To: mailop@mailop.org<mailto:mailop@mailop.org>
Subject: Re: [mailop] Mail accepted by
On Wed, Mar 30, 2016 at 01:21:17AM +, Michael Wise wrote:
> Oh wait, that means we have to get 10x the number of servers ... and data
> centers.
Actually, the measures I outlined require *fewer* servers, less storage,
and (in most cases) less network bandwidth. That's one of the reasons
I me
?
-Original Message-
From: mailop [mailto:mailop-boun...@mailop.org] On Behalf Of Rich Kulawiec
Sent: Tuesday, March 29, 2016 6:06 PM
To: mailop@mailop.org
Subject: Re: [mailop] Mail accepted by outlook.com/hotmail.com disappears.
On Wed, Mar 23, 2016 at 10:16:11AM -0700, Michael Peddemors
On Wed, Mar 23, 2016 at 10:16:11AM -0700, Michael Peddemors wrote:
> For instance, if it believes
> the message is spam, and the recipient has requested that 'all'
> email be forwarded to a remote account, forwarding that email could
> make it appear that the forwarder is the source of spam.
Solut
On 03/23/2016 08:35 PM, Aaron C. de Bruyn wrote:
> On Wed, Mar 23, 2016 at 10:16 AM, Michael Peddemors
> wrote:
>
>> On 16-03-18 11:28 AM, Rodgers, Anthony (DTMB) wrote:
>>
>>> Dropping Email has been acceptable ever since unwanted email has occurred.
>>>
>>
> I suppose it's your server, do wha
@mailop.org
Subject: Re: [mailop] Mail accepted by outlook.com/hotmail.com disappears.
We have convinced some of the Powers That Be that we should find another
solution, and there is an open-ness to change on this behavior. Not gonna be
this week or this month ... who can say for sure. But noise
On 2016-03-22 10:39, Michael Wise wrote:
We have convinced some of the Powers That Be that we should find another
solution, and there is an open-ness to change on this behavior. Not gonna be
this week or this month ... who can say for sure. But noise is being made about
it.
Awesome, and than
On Wed, Mar 23, 2016 at 10:16 AM, Michael Peddemors
wrote:
> On 16-03-18 11:28 AM, Rodgers, Anthony (DTMB) wrote:
>
>> Dropping Email has been acceptable ever since unwanted email has occurred.
>>
>
I suppose it's your server, do what you want.
If I was your customer, I'd be pissed that you silen
Brandon Long via mailop wrote:
I think it's a numbers problem.
If you handle a high enough volume of mail, if you sometimes drop
mail, and sometimes have false positives that you drop... you will
eventually reach a volume of dropped false positives that will have
visible affects.
Ie, if you
I think it's a numbers problem.
If you handle a high enough volume of mail, if you sometimes drop mail, and
sometimes have false positives that you drop... you will eventually reach a
volume of dropped false positives that will have visible affects.
Ie, if you reach a point of dropping 100k or 1M
On 16-03-18 11:28 AM, Rodgers, Anthony (DTMB) wrote:
“…delete it without delivering it to the intended recipient’s INBOX or
Junk folder with no NDR…”
When did dropping mail on the floor become acceptable? Or am I just grumpy?
Nobody wants backscatter, but that’s what SMTP-time DSNs are for, no?
On Tue, Mar 22, 2016 at 05:39:43PM +, Michael Wise wrote:
> We have convinced some of the Powers That Be that we should find another
> solution, and there is an open-ness to change on this behavior. Not gonna be
> this week or this month ... who can say for sure. But noise is being made
> ab
Analysis | "Your Spam Specimen Has Been
Processed." | Got the Junk Mail Reporting Tool ?
-Original Message-
From: mailop [mailto:mailop-boun...@mailop.org] On Behalf Of Noel Butler
Sent: Saturday, March 19, 2016 3:54 AM
To: mailop@mailop.org
Subject: Re: [mailop] Mail accepted by o
t the Junk Mail Reporting Tool ?
-Original Message-
From: mailop [mailto:mailop-boun...@mailop.org] On Behalf Of Alarig Le Lay
Sent: Saturday, March 19, 2016 2:50 AM
To: mailop@mailop.org
Subject: Re: [mailop] Mail accepted by outlook.com/hotmail.com disappears.
On Fri Mar 18 00:38:36 201
Michael,
Could you elaborate on:
"The issue will be highlighted in the SNDS report, however."
Luke
On Thu, Mar 17, 2016 at 6:38 PM, Michael Wise
wrote:
> Has the customer signed up for JMRP or SNDS?
>
> Because if not, that would be step #0; see below.
>
>
>
> And yes, under certain circumst
On Fri, Mar 18, 2016 at 11:22 AM, Hugo Slabbert
wrote:
>
> They're welcome to run their own server at near-zero maintenance cost.
> But, if that mode of operating the mail server results in other mail
> systems being negatively impacted and the admins of those mail systems then
> taking corrective
On Fri 2016-Mar-18 11:05:59 -0700, Aaron C. de Bruyn wrote:
On Thu, Mar 17, 2016 at 10:04 PM, Jay Hennigan
wrote:
Am I just grumpy this week?
Kinda.
The desire to move to a small cabin in the woods and never hear the words
'e-mail' or 'Microsoft' ever again sounds perfect right about n
That's interesting.
I find their ticketing system to be much more reliable and effective than
any other deliverability mitigation channel out there (aside from calling
in a favor with a friend.)
On Thu, Mar 17, 2016 at 7:38 PM, Marc Perkel
wrote:
> I've had nothing but trouble with MS. Lots of
> * They like having a mail server that costs them $0/year for the last 8
> years, so they don't want to pay $200/mo to switch to Exchange online.
How much is their non-delivery problem costing them? Be sure to include
lost-time as well as charges that show up on a bill
> I guess one of those t
Luke Martinez
> Sent: 3/17/2016 5:47 PM
> To: Michael Wise
> Cc: Aaron C. de Bruyn ; mailop@mailop.org
> Subject: Re: [mailop] Mail accepted by outlook.com/hotmail.com disappears.
>
> Michael,
>
> Could you elaborate on:
>
> "The issue will be highlighted in th
:mailop@mailop.org>
Subject: Re: [mailop] Mail accepted by outlook.com/hotmail.com disappears.
Michael,
Could you elaborate on:
"The issue will be highlighted in the SNDS report, however."
Luke
On Thu, Mar 17, 2016 at 6:38 PM, Michael Wise
mailto:michael.w...@microsoft.com>> w
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA512
On Fri, 2016-03-18 at 18:28 +, Rodgers, Anthony (DTMB) wrote:
> When did dropping mail on the floor become acceptable?
Apple (me.com, mac.com) does that also. And unlike Microsoft they seem
to have NO way for their own customers to ask about or
, 2016 20:39
To: Aaron C. de Bruyn ; mailop@mailop.org
Subject: Re: [mailop] Mail accepted by outlook.com/hotmail.com disappears.
Has the customer signed up for JMRP or SNDS?
Because if not, that would be step #0; see below.
And yes, under certain circumstances, Hotmail/Outlook will 250 the mail
I've had nothing but trouble with MS. Lots of messages delayed for
hours. No one to contact and complain to. I think their system is broken
and they don't know how to fix it.
On 03/17/16 17:12, Aaron C. de Bruyn wrote:
A customer complained to me they haven't been able to e-mail
outlook/hotmai
On Thu, Mar 17, 2016 at 10:04 PM, Jay Hennigan
wrote:
>
> Am I just grumpy this week?
>>
>
> Kinda.
The desire to move to a small cabin in the woods and never hear the words
'e-mail' or 'Microsoft' ever again sounds perfect right about now--so I
guess I am grumpy. ;)
> Is e-mail no longer a c
You sign up for your /24 on which you have a couple of hundred such customers,
and receive those snds stats
If you see an IP going red you can hand this off to your customer for them to
fix their hacked exchange, postfix with a test/test user or whatever it is that
caused the issue.
> On 18-Ma
On 3/17/16 6:59 PM, Aaron C. de Bruyn wrote:
On Thu, Mar 17, 2016 at 5:38 PM, Michael Wise
mailto:michael.w...@microsoft.com>> wrote:
Has the customer signed up for JMRP or SNDS?
Because if not, that would be step #0; see below.
Nope.
This seems especially bad to me.
Is every mail
On Fri, 18 Mar 2016, Michael Wise wrote:
>And yes, under certain circumstances, Hotmail/Outlook will [...] delete
>[...] with no NDR. The issue will be highlighted in the SNDS report,
>however.
Any idea what that looks like? Are those the ones to be found in the
blocked table on the ipStatus.
On Thu, Mar 17, 2016 at 5:38 PM, Michael Wise
wrote:
> Has the customer signed up for JMRP or SNDS?
>
> Because if not, that would be step #0; see below.
>
Nope.
This seems especially bad to me.
Is every mail provider out there going to create their own pet reporting
system that requires an acc
On 19/03/2016 09:11, Renaud Allard via mailop wrote:
On 18/03/16 01:38, Michael Wise wrote:
And yes, under certain circumstances, Hotmail/Outlook will 250 the
mail,
and may then if it considers the IP sufficiently toxic, delete it
without delivering it to the intended recipient’s INBOX or Junk
On Fri Mar 18 00:38:36 2016, Michael Wise wrote:
> Has the customer signed up for JMRP or SNDS?
> Because if not, that would be step #0; see below.
>
> And yes, under certain circumstances, Hotmail/Outlook will 250 the mail, and
> may then if it considers the IP sufficiently toxic, delete it with
) [mailto:rodger...@michigan.gov]
Sent: Friday, March 18, 2016 11:49 AM
To: Michael Wise ; Aaron C. de Bruyn
; mailop@mailop.org
Subject: RE: [mailop] Mail accepted by outlook.com/hotmail.com disappears.
“HotMail has been doing it for some time.”
Oh, I know ☺
“It’s another policy we’re trying to change.”
I
; mailop@mailop.org
Subject: RE: [mailop] Mail accepted by outlook.com/hotmail.com disappears.
Acceptable by whom?
HotMail has been doing it for some time.
Many people external to Microsoft have noted this for some time…
It’s another policy we’re trying to change.
400+ Million customers online, tens of
On 18/03/16 01:38, Michael Wise wrote:
And yes, under certain circumstances, Hotmail/Outlook will 250 the mail,
and may then if it considers the IP sufficiently toxic, delete it
without delivering it to the intended recipient’s INBOX or Junk folder
with no NDR.
May I suppose that you agree th
igan
Cc: mailop@mailop.org
Subject: Re: [mailop] Mail accepted by outlook.com/hotmail.com disappears.
On Thu, Mar 17, 2016 at 10:04 PM, Jay Hennigan
mailto:mailop-l...@keycodes.com>> wrote:
Am I just grumpy this week?
Kinda.
The desire to move to a small cabin in the woods and never hear
Has the customer signed up for JMRP or SNDS?
Because if not, that would be step #0; see below.
And yes, under certain circumstances, Hotmail/Outlook will 250 the mail, and
may then if it considers the IP sufficiently toxic, delete it without
delivering it to the intended recipient’s INBOX or Jun
On Fri, Mar 18, 2016 at 11:25 AM, Michael Wise
wrote:
> We **ARE** working on making it easier…
>
>
>
> Witness this (granted, if’s for Exchange Online, but):
>
>
>
> https://sender.office.com
>
Handy. I'm stashing that link away.
> Is that shack for rent on weekends?
>
Yes.
microsoft.com/en-us/download/details.aspx?id=18275> ?
From: Rodgers, Anthony (DTMB) [mailto:rodger...@michigan.gov]
Sent: Friday, March 18, 2016 11:29 AM
To: Michael Wise ; Aaron C. de Bruyn
; mailop@mailop.org
Subject: RE: [mailop] Mail accepted by outlook.com/hotmail.com disappears.
“…d
.org
Subject: Re: [mailop] Mail accepted by outlook.com/hotmail.com disappears.
On Fri, Mar 18, 2016 at 11:25 AM, Michael Wise
mailto:michael.w...@microsoft.com>> wrote:
We *ARE* working on making it easier…
Witness this (granted, if’s for Exchange Online, but):
https://s
Hi Mike,
Le Fri, Mar 18, 2016 at 12:38:36AM +, Michael Wise
[michael.w...@microsoft.com] a écrit:
> Has the customer signed up for JMRP or SNDS?
> Because if not, that would be step #0; see below.
Thanks for the clear roadmap for getting feedback from Outlook/MS/Live !
(I never found such c
On Fri, Mar 18, 2016 at 2:35 PM, Hal Murray wrote:
>
> How much is their non-delivery problem costing them? Be sure to include
> lost-time as well as charges that show up on a bill
>
Dealing with everyone except Microsoft took about 20 minutes. Over 8
years, this is the first time it's come up.
On 18/3/2016 23:35, Hal Murray wrote:
In a way, I'm thankful that Microsoft is making it difficult to get delisted.
It makes people think about the cost-shifting they are doing. They probably
aren't thinking of it as cost-shifting, but at least they are becoming more
aware of the problem.
Ros
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