Re: Mila Tova on Bank Leumi site and linux/mozilla client

Oron Peled wrote: Completely true. That's why I think we should change strategy. The emphasis should be on: - The web team you hired doesn't follow web standards. - Many clients (e.g: people with other IE versions) may be affected. - You wouldn't know it (it looks ok on your computer). - It

RE: Mila Tova on Bank Leumi site and linux/mozilla client

On Tue, 31 Dec 2002 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > This remoinds me - I'm reading now "The Complete DHTML refference" > (or something like that) from O'Reilly (don't sniger - this book > is all about portability) and was wondering how feasable would it > be to stick an "IE compatibility module" in Moz

Re: Mila Tova on Bank Leumi site and linux/mozilla client

On 31 Dec 2002 14:34:56 +0200 Alex Shnitman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > It's all awareness. Neither the web development company nor their client > think that there are any normal people in their right mind who are not > using IE. I think it never even gets to the point where they count > percentag

RE: Mila Tova on Bank Leumi site and linux/mozilla client

This remoinds me - I'm reading now "The Complete DHTML refference" (or something like that) from O'Reilly (don't sniger - this book is all about portability) and was wondering how feasable would it be to stick an "IE compatibility module" in Mozilla? Has anyone though of that? I don't know Mozill

RE: Mila Tova on Bank Leumi site and linux/mozilla client

Here here to that! Education can be found the source of many solutions. Maybe aproaching such schools and offering them help with setting up Linux-based classes will be beneficial to both parties - the schools get lower cost of ownership (should probably be shown very good return on investment (R

Re: Mila Tova on Bank Leumi site and linux/mozilla client

Quoting Oron Peled, from the post of Tue, 31 Dec: > (politely and rationaly) complain to, thus conveying the message: >"It's better be standard compliant then to deal with bad > publicity from tech savy people about the quality of your > web site". and the PHB hears "please a small bun

Re: Mila Tova on Bank Leumi site and linux/mozilla client

Quoting Alex Shnitman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: > It usually goes like this. The boss wants a web site, so he hires a web > development company to create one. The developers in this company are > obviously not people with a dozen years of computing experience, but > people who have gone through a coup

RE: Mila Tova on Bank Leumi site and linux/mozilla client

> From: Oron Peled > > On Tue, 31 Dec 2002 08:41:55 +0200 > [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > > > I think you missed the main point: > > > > 5. Bottom line - drives away potential business (customers, > partners) and > > misses the whole point of having a web site. > > Very good, but now we should th

Re: Mila Tova on Bank Leumi site and linux/mozilla client

I suggest doing an online poll of user browsing prefrences. Ask questions such as: 1. Rate each of the following factors from 1(not important) to 5(very important) for your browsing experience: FACTORS: Loading speed, navigation speed, lack of popup windows, does it work on my sy

Re: Mila Tova on Bank Leumi site and linux/mozilla client

On Tuesday 31 December 2002 14:34, Alex Shnitman wrote: > On Tue, 2002-12-31 at 09:16, Oleg Goldshmidt wrote: > > > I think you missed the main point: > > > > > > 5. Bottom line - drives away potential business (customers, partners) > > > and misses the whole point of having a web site. > > > > Thi

Re: Mila Tova on Bank Leumi site and linux/mozilla client

On Tue, 31 Dec 2002 08:41:55 +0200 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > I think you missed the main point: > > 5. Bottom line - drives away potential business (customers, partners) and > misses the whole point of having a web site. Very good, but now we should think of means to substantiate this claim. Ot

Re: Mila Tova on Bank Leumi site and linux/mozilla client

On Tue, 2002-12-31 at 09:16, Oleg Goldshmidt wrote: > > I think you missed the main point: > > > > 5. Bottom line - drives away potential business (customers, partners) and > > misses the whole point of having a web site. > > This they won't agree with, on the basis of "98% of customers use IE >

Re: Mila Tova on Bank Leumi site and linux/mozilla client

On Tue, 31 Dec 2002, Shoshannah Forbes wrote: > > On Tuesday, Dec 31, 2002, at 09:50 Asia/Jerusalem, Shlomi Fish wrote: > > > Another point is that users would like more minimalistic and > > standards-compliant sites better than sites with a lot of > > bandwidth-overloading, DHTML/JS, useless bell

Re: Mila Tova on Bank Leumi site and linux/mozilla client

On Tuesday, Dec 31, 2002, at 09:50 Asia/Jerusalem, Shlomi Fish wrote: Another point is that users would like more minimalistic and standards-compliant sites better than sites with a lot of bandwidth-overloading, DHTML/JS, useless bells and whistells madness. Making your site basic and portable w

RE: Mila Tova on Bank Leumi site and linux/mozilla client

Yes, that's the spirit of my message. Thanks. > -Original Message- > From: Shlomi Fish > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] ilshell.com] > Sent: Tuesday, December 31, 2002 9:51 AM > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: Re: Mila Tova on Bank Leumi site and linux/mozilla client

RE: Mila Tova on Bank Leumi site and linux/mozilla client

customers. > -Original Message- > From: Oleg Goldshmidt > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > Sent: Tuesday, December 31, 2002 9:16 AM > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: Re: Mila Tova on Bank Leumi site and linux/mozilla client > > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > > &g

Re: Mila Tova on Bank Leumi site and linux/mozilla client

On 31 Dec 2002, Oleg Goldshmidt wrote: > [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > > > I think you missed the main point: > > > > 5. Bottom line - drives away potential business (customers, partners) and > > misses the whole point of having a web site. > > This they won't agree with, on the basis of "98% of cus

Re: Mila Tova on Bank Leumi site and linux/mozilla client

[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > I think you missed the main point: > > 5. Bottom line - drives away potential business (customers, partners) and > misses the whole point of having a web site. This they won't agree with, on the basis of "98% of customers use IE so the extra expense is not warranted."

RE: Mila Tova on Bank Leumi site and linux/mozilla client

EMAIL PROTECTED] > Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: Re: Mila Tova on Bank Leumi site and linux/mozilla client > > > On Mon, 30 Dec 2002 17:43:40 +0200 > [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > > Well, working as a web programmer for a long time now, you >

Re: Mila Tova on Bank Leumi site and linux/mozilla client

On Monday, Dec 30, 2002, at 21:24 Asia/Jerusalem, Oron Peled wrote: Of course the many practical arguments raised so far will help demonstrate the problem. So let's try to compose a partial list: 1. Maintenance hell for upgrades 2. Should retest for many versions of proprietary products

Re: Mila Tova on Bank Leumi site and linux/mozilla client

On Mon, 30 Dec 2002 17:43:40 +0200 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > Well, working as a web programmer for a long time now, you can't imagine how > childish bosses are. Good point. So it's the same struggle we see everywhere in the software field about PHB's and Marketoids forcing non-professional decisi

Web standards (was: Re: OT: Mila Tova on Bank Leumi site and linux/mozilla client)

On Monday, Dec 30, 2002, at 17:43 Asia/Jerusalem, Ira Abramov wrote: the point is that I also have accounts with Wells Fargo and Schwab, I fiddle with Amazon, B&N and eBay, and none of them (except for very small and surprises on Amazon) are incompatible with Mozilla/Galeon/Konq as are the new L

Re: OT: Mila Tova on Bank Leumi site and linux/mozilla client

Quoting Shoshannah Forbes, from the post of Mon, 30 Dec: > >Maybe such a fight should be done under the title of "web standards" > >rather than "open source vs. microsoft". > > Yep. I agree here > I used to know a few people from WaSP As > far as I know, they do no

Re: OT: Mila Tova on Bank Leumi site and linux/mozilla client

On Monday, Dec 30, 2002, at 17:19 Asia/Jerusalem, Oleg Goldshmidt wrote: Shoshannah Forbes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: Funny thing is- a large number of their customers are Microsoft employees... Nothing strange here: the Oregon bank has 5 branches, one of which is in Redmond, WA. ;-) That

Re: Mila Tova on Bank Leumi site and linux/mozilla client

Quoting Shoshannah Forbes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: > Just wondering- where did you get your figures from? > The numbers I have seen claim that making a site that adheres to > standards is actually cheaper then creating a site geared to one > browser. > Provided, of corse, that you don't really on some

Re: Fwd: OT: Mila Tova on Bank Leumi site and linux/mozilla client

Quoting Oleg Goldshmidt, from the post of Mon, 30 Dec: > Shoshannah Forbes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > > > Funny thing is- a large number of their customers are Microsoft > > employees... > > Nothing strange here: the Oregon bank has 5 branches, one of which is in > Redmond, WA. ;-) the point

Re: OT: Mila Tova on Bank Leumi site and linux/mozilla client

On Monday, Dec 30, 2002, at 17:16 Asia/Jerusalem, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Maybe such a fight should be done under the title of "web standards" rather than "open source vs. microsoft". Yep. I agree here I think there are already bodies which promote web standards adoption (forgot their det

RE: OT: Mila Tova on Bank Leumi site and linux/mozilla client

> From: Shoshannah Forbes > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > Sent: Monday, December 30, 2002 4:44 PM > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Cc: Uri Bruck; Linux-IL > Subject: Re: OT: Mila Tova on Bank Leumi site and linux/mozilla client > > > > On Thursday, Dec 26, 2002, at 19:

Re: Fwd: OT: Mila Tova on Bank Leumi site and linux/mozilla client

Shoshannah Forbes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > Funny thing is- a large number of their customers are Microsoft > employees... Nothing strange here: the Oregon bank has 5 branches, one of which is in Redmond, WA. ;-) -- Oleg Goldshmidt | [EMAIL PROTECTED] ==

Re: OT: Mila Tova on Bank Leumi site and linux/mozilla client

On Thursday, Dec 26, 2002, at 19:43 Asia/Jerusalem, Oleg Kobets wrote: Awarness: Mostly companies are not aware that there is such thing as Linux and so they never tell the people who actually build the site that it should support non-IE browsers. It is not just linux users who face this prob

Mila Tova on Bank Leumi site and linux/mozilla client

On Thursday, Dec 26, 2002, at 15:56 Asia/Jerusalem, Boulgakov Andrei wrote: NSs and Mozilla takes 3%, IEs - 96%. If man*month of Web developer costs to Leumi 15000, development of "IE-ed" site takes 10 man*month and "IE-ed and NS-ed" 15 man*month, who need to pay 5000*5=25000 for 2% of NS us

Fwd: OT: Mila Tova on Bank Leumi site and linux/mozilla client

On Thursday, Dec 26, 2002, at 19:21 Asia/Jerusalem, Uri Bruck wrote: 1. A company that designs its website with the typical Israeli over- complication and utter disregard to standards and non-IE browsers; What makes you think this "typical Israeli"? Do you have a different experience wi

Mila Tova on Bank Leumi site and linux/mozilla client

On Thursday, Dec 26, 2002, at 15:44 Asia/Jerusalem, Alex Chudnovsky wrote: Hello there, Leumi, what about people using Mozilla? Konqueror? Opera? Blind people using a text broswer? And why the heck do you need all that Javascript stuff, instead of just using standard links? For that is what the

RE: Mila Tova on Bank Leumi site and linux/mozilla client

BA>> Discriminators are users. Customer (Leumi in this case) looking BA>> at Browser Statistics won't pay money on customization for BA>> Netscape+Mozilla. If you and all your friends will browse about I'm already paying money as BLL client. Part of these money is website budget. Just website use

Re: OT: Mila Tova on Bank Leumi site and linux/mozilla client

"Oleg Kobets" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > Awarness: > Mostly companies are not aware that there is such thing as Linux and so they > never tell the people who actually build the site that it should support > non-IE browsers. The issue is not Linux. FWIW I am weird enough to have Mozilla as my d

Re: FW: Mila Tova on Bank Leumi site and linux/mozilla client

On Thu, 2002-12-26 at 15:56, Boulgakov Andrei wrote: > > NSs and Mozilla takes 3%, IEs - 96%. If man*month of Web developer costs to > Leumi 15000, development of "IE-ed" site takes 10 man*month and "IE-ed and > NS-ed" 15 man*month, who need to pay 5000*5=25000 for 2% of NS users? Because it's n

Re: OT: Mila Tova on Bank Leumi site and linux/mozilla client

On Thu, 26 Dec 2002, Nadav Har'El wrote: > On Thu, Dec 26, 2002, Uri Bruck wrote about "Re: OT: Mila Tova on Bank Leumi site >and linux/mozilla client": > > > 1. A company that designs its website with the typical Israeli over- > > > complication a

Re: OT: Mila Tova on Bank Leumi site and linux/mozilla client

On Thursday 26 December 2002 23:24, Nadav Har'El wrote: > On Thu, Dec 26, 2002, Uri Bruck wrote about "Re: OT: Mila Tova on Bank Leumi site and linux/mozilla client": > > > 1. A company that designs its website with the typical Israeli over- > > >

Re: OT: Mila Tova on Bank Leumi site and linux/mozilla client

On Thu, Dec 26, 2002, Uri Bruck wrote about "Re: OT: Mila Tova on Bank Leumi site and linux/mozilla client": > > 1. A company that designs its website with the typical Israeli over- > > complication and utter disregard to standards and non-IE browsers; > What make

Re: OT: Mila Tova on Bank Leumi site and linux/mozilla client

> 1. A company that designs its website with the typical Israeli over- > complication and utter disregard to standards and non-IE browsers; > What makes you think this "typical Israeli"? > Do you have a different experience with your off-shore bank account? This is an issue of awarness an

Re: OT: Mila Tova on Bank Leumi site and linux/mozilla client

On Thu, 26 Dec 2002, Nadav Har'El wrote: > On Thu, Dec 26, 2002, Guy Baruch wrote about "OT: Mila Tova on Bank Leumi site and >linux/mozilla client": > > > > Hello, just a good story for a change, hope it's not too OT. > > Bank Leumi just recently

Re: OT: Mila Tova on Bank Leumi site and linux/mozilla client

OK, I don't want to get into website construction techniques (don't know enough). I found this a good story not because the new or old site dazzeled me by its perfection, but because BLL, although originally making a mistake, had the beitzim/iot to admit it to a private costumer (ar least non-

RE: Mila Tova on Bank Leumi site and linux/mozilla client

Title: RE: Mila Tova on Bank Leumi site and linux/mozilla client ;-) AFAIK, you're right only in #3 MM in fixed price project can cost to customer more than 15000 :) -Original Message- From: Eli Marmor [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, December 26, 2002 3:52 PM To: [

Re: OT: Mila Tova on Bank Leumi site and linux/mozilla client

Hi, On Thu, Dec 26, 2002 at 03:44:28PM +0200, Alex Chudnovsky wrote: > On Thursday 26 December 2002 15:15, Nadav Har'El wrote: > > On Thu, Dec 26, 2002, Guy Baruch wrote about "OT: Mila Tova on Bank Leumi > site and linux/mozilla client": > > > Hello, just

Re: OT: Mila Tova on Bank Leumi site and linux/mozilla client

On Thu, 26 Dec 2002, Alex Chudnovsky wrote: > On Thursday 26 December 2002 15:15, Nadav Har'El wrote: > > On Thu, Dec 26, 2002, Guy Baruch wrote about "OT: Mila Tova on Bank Leumi > site and linux/mozilla client": > > > Hello, just a good story for a change, ho

Re: Mila Tova on Bank Leumi site and linux/mozilla client

Boulgakov Andrei wrote: > NSs and Mozilla takes 3%, IEs - 96%. If man*month of Web developer > costs to Leumi 15000$, development of "IE-ed" site takes 10 man*month $15000 for a man month of a web developer looks a little exaggerated. > and "IE-ed and NS-ed" 15 man*month, who need to pay 5000*5=

FW: Mila Tova on Bank Leumi site and linux/mozilla client

Title: FW: Mila Tova on Bank Leumi site and linux/mozilla client >So, with all the stories about sites discriminating against non-IE clients, Discriminators are users. Customer (Leumi in this case) looking at Browser Statistics won't pay money on customization for Netscape+Mozil

Re: OT: Mila Tova on Bank Leumi site and linux/mozilla client

On Thursday 26 December 2002 15:15, Nadav Har'El wrote: > On Thu, Dec 26, 2002, Guy Baruch wrote about "OT: Mila Tova on Bank Leumi site and linux/mozilla client": > > Hello, just a good story for a change, hope it's not too OT. > > Bank Leumi just recently

RE: Mila Tova on Bank Leumi site and linux/mozilla client

Title: RE: Mila Tova on Bank Leumi site and linux/mozilla client >So, with all the stories about sites discriminating against non-IE clients, Discriminators are users. Customer (Leumi in this case) looking at Browser Statistics won't pay money on customization for Netscape+Mozil

Re: OT: Mila Tova on Bank Leumi site and linux/mozilla client

On Thu, Dec 26, 2002, Guy Baruch wrote about "OT: Mila Tova on Bank Leumi site and linux/mozilla client": > > Hello, just a good story for a change, hope it's not too OT. > Bank Leumi just recently did a face-lift to their "Leumi-Ba-Internet" site. Interest

OT: Mila Tova on Bank Leumi site and linux/mozilla client

Hello, just a good story for a change, hope it's not too OT. Bank Leumi just recently did a face-lift to their "Leumi-Ba-Internet" site. I have long viewed their site via Mozilla/Linux, which their old site supported. Problem is, the new site did not work with Mozilla (tried several versions)