Re: [FRIAM] Self-Consciousness, experience and metaphysics

2024-07-25 Thread Prof David West
Jochem, As gently and respectfully as possible, I must correct your view of anthropology. First, there are three primary branches, archeology: the study of cultures before any historic record, cultural: the study of any and every peoples from ancient to contemporary, and physical, the study of

Re: [FRIAM] Self-Consciousness, experience and metaphysics

2024-07-25 Thread Prof David West
responding to two of glen's comments: First the two anecdotes about dropping/catching things. My experience as I read them, there are two different conscious entities here, glen and glen's body. [Hidden premise in the movie, Jennifer's Body?] made me think, another experience, of the metaphor

Re: [FRIAM] Self-Consciousness, experience and metaphysics

2024-07-25 Thread steve smith
Glen - All animalia have closed neural-sensorimotor loops and all life have chem-bio sensorimotor loops? So the "fusion" of which you speak, if we want to reserve "consciousness" for humans, human-familiars (pets, other domesticates, human-tolerant wild animals), charismatic animals (the one

Re: [FRIAM] Self-Consciousness, experience and metaphysics

2024-07-25 Thread Nicholas Thompson
David, I am having trouble with the fusion metaphor. I can think of two kinds of fusions that might be operating here: a bunch of stuff is pushed together at very high velocity, and there is a giant bang. Alternatively, a bunch of different substances Are heated to a high temperature and form a

[FRIAM] gradations of consciousness (was Self-Consciousness, experience and metaphysics)

2024-07-25 Thread glen
Hm. I agree there's no obvious threshold. But I think (especially with Dave's stories) there is a threshold there somewhere. Homeostasis is inadequate, which is why I mentioned allostasis/aspiration/wants/desires. It's not clear to me whether that line also cuts teleo[no|dyna]mics in half. But

Re: [FRIAM] Self-Consciousness, experience and metaphysics

2024-07-25 Thread Prof David West
Nick, It is Glen's metaphor, but I read it as less of an atomic, stellar/particle accelerator, type of fusion and a gentler combining-synthesizing kind of thing. davew On Thu, Jul 25, 2024, at 11:38 AM, Nicholas Thompson wrote: > David, > > I am having trouble with the fusion metaphor. I can t

Re: [FRIAM] Self-Consciousness, experience and metaphysics

2024-07-25 Thread Prof David West
In the spirit of the thread, anecdotes: I read glen's post and reacted to the word 'fusion' as an *experience* of 'confirmation bias', in that it triggered a mental image/metaphor I believe to be useful, and have used in the past, in conversations with others about the processing of sensations

Re: [FRIAM] Self-Consciousness, experience and metaphysics

2024-07-25 Thread Jochen Fromm
Dave,I didn't know you have a PhD in anthropology. Apparently you are more qualified to talk about anthropology than I do. I didn't want to say it is easy or not interesting enough. Every science is interesting. The few parts that I am aware of just feel sometimes a bit disappointing for me pers

Re: [FRIAM] Self-Consciousness, experience and metaphysics

2024-07-25 Thread Jochen Fromm
Personally I only have experience with cats which my parents had when I was young and the horse which my wife has now. I would say neither cats nor horses love their owners. If a cat sleeps during the day on the couch it is most likely not because it is so peaceful and cozy and loves to be aroun

Re: [FRIAM] Self-Consciousness, experience and metaphysics

2024-07-25 Thread Frank Wimberly
I used to ride horses when I was a kid (10?) in New Mexico. Chico was docile and obedient when we were out and about but when we were approaching "home" and he could see the barn where the food was he would start to gallop and would go through the entrance without regard to its being too low for a

[FRIAM] meeting 7/26

2024-07-25 Thread Jacques Mettes
Hi all, I've been away/busy and have lost track of the schedule. Are we still meeting in person over the summer? Thanks, Jacques On Thu, Jul 25, 2024 at 4:15 PM Frank Wimberly wrote: > I used to ride horses when I was a kid (10?) in New Mexico. Chico was > docile and obedient when we were out a

Re: [FRIAM] meeting 7/26

2024-07-25 Thread Frank Wimberly
We meet in the coffee shop at St John's College beginning at 9:00+. To get in the building (Peterson Center) go to the south side of the building via the west side. This is because of construction. --- Frank C. Wimberly 140 Calle Ojo Feliz, Santa Fe, NM 87505 505 670-9918 Santa Fe, NM On Thu,

Re: [FRIAM] Self-Consciousness, experience and metaphysics

2024-07-25 Thread David Eric Smith
I think the Contemplatives’s main POV is that someone in the zone is more conscious than someone in the normal state, which they regard as “a distraction” that obscures what they want the word “conscious” to point toward. But as an AI, I do not have contemplative thoughts and feelings, and can o

Re: [FRIAM] Self-Consciousness, experience and metaphysics

2024-07-25 Thread glen
Creative flow as optimized processing: Evidence from brain oscillations during jazz improvisations by expert and non-expert musicians https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0028393224000393?via%3Dihub Contemplation is, like love, a fantasy ... a Rationalist conceit. On 7/25/24 16:51

Re: [FRIAM] meeting 7/26

2024-07-25 Thread Tom Johnson
Sure. FRIAM is a year around meeting. On Thu, Jul 25, 2024 at 5:21 PM Jacques Mettes wrote: > Hi all, > I've been away/busy and have lost track of the schedule. Are we still > meeting in person over the summer? > Thanks, > Jacques > > On Thu, Jul 25, 2024 at 4:15 PM Frank Wimberly > wrote: > >

Re: [FRIAM] Self-Consciousness, experience and metaphysics

2024-07-25 Thread Curt McNamara
Somewhat out of sequence: - some of what glen describes seems to be embodied cognition. A related example is knowing how to play a musical instrument. This is part of the 4Es of cognition. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embodied_embedded_cognition - some of the discussion reminds me of Behavior: T