Dave,I didn't know you have a PhD in anthropology. Apparently you are more
qualified to talk about anthropology than I do. I didn't want to say it is easy
or not interesting enough. Every science is interesting. The few parts that I
am aware of just feel sometimes a bit disappointing for me personally as
someone who would like to understand cultural evolution. If I read the books
from Robert Boyd and Peter Richerson about cultural evolution I get the
impression that they stop right before it gets interesting, before the
invention of writing systems, civilizations, religions, and the first city
states.Before the invention of writing systems many inventions and ideas were
fleeting and could not be passed reliably to next generations. I have the
feeling that moments of self-awareness in animals (or children) could be
similar: fleeting moments which pass quickly. It is the acquisition of language
which allows them to grasp things more clearly and to form durable abstract
concepts, just as writing systems allowed the formation of the first
civilizations.-J.
-------- Original message --------From: Prof David West <profw...@fastmail.fm>
Date: 7/25/24 4:56 PM (GMT+01:00) To: friam@redfish.com Subject: Re: [FRIAM]
Self-Consciousness, experience and metaphysics Jochem,As gently and
respectfully as possible, I must correct your view of anthropology. First,
there are three primary branches, archeology: the study of cultures before any
historic record, cultural: the study of any and every peoples from ancient to
contemporary, and physical, the study of evolution of human species. Some also
include linguistic, the study of the evolution of language.Very little of
cultural anthropology is focused on "primitive hunter gatherer groups in Africa
or ancient tribes in the Amazon region." My own Ph.D. in Anthro focused on
criticism of the prevailing computer metaphor for human cognition and the role
of culture in shaping how people think. The study of pre-literate societies,
including the few that can still be found in remote areas, are premised on
using such study to illuminate contemporary and historical societies; e.g., the
Yanomami and their bent for violence, to modern gangs. The goal is always to
seek insights based on "making the strange familiar and the familiar
strange."Culture existed and was essential for human organization and society,
tens of thousands of years before the agricultural revolution and the emergence
of urbanization. And it was rich and complex and fascinating and quite
informative of why people are what they are today.davewOn Wed, Jul 24, 2024, at
12:31 PM, Jochen Fromm wrote:Nick, Looking for self-awareness in animals before
language emerged feels to me like searching for culture in anthropology before
civilizations appeared.People in anthropology study human societies, cultures
and their development, but sadly mostly in the time before it gets interesting
(when religions, writing systems and civilizations emerged in ancient Egypt and
ancient Mesopotamia). They examine for instance primitive hunter gatherer
groups in Africa or ancient tribes in the Amazon region.Looking for examples of
particular experiences with animals that show signs of self-awareness (and not
only respond to the world around them, but also respond to their own responding
to the world around them) feels similar to me: it is like focusing on a
fascinating phenomenon but at a place before it gets interesting.If this
comment bends the thread too much then please ignore it :-)J.-------- Original
message --------From: Nicholas Thompson <thompnicks...@gmail.com>Date: 7/23/24
6:57 PM (GMT+01:00)To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
<friam@redfish.com>, Prof David West <profw...@fastmail.fm>Subject: [FRIAM]
Self-Consciousness, experience and metaphysicsDavid's last post so effectively
blurs the lines between these two that I am going to give up, for the moment,
on my attempt to keep them straight.Intuition tells me that Dave's post falls
on one side of the line, and Glen's on the other, but I have to go shopping.
I am still hoping to hear examples of particular experiences with animals,
computers, spouses, etc., that confirm your sense that they are not only
responding to the world around them, but also responding to their own
responding to the world around them.Back to this later when stocked upIn the
meantime, Please, you-all, don't dick with this thread, don't fork it and do,
if you are responding to a particular comment, speak to that person, don't just
fling your wisdom out into the ether.I never thought you guys would turn me
into a thread-Nazi. Nick-. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . /
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