Re: More inclusive naming

Hi Keegan, Yes, just one class (plus associated tests and doco). It's not internal exactly but you are right it is not ever seen by normal Groovy users. It's only used by folks building DSLs which are subsets of the Groovy language. To me the aliases are clearer in English, quite possibly much cle

Re: More inclusive naming

I've been reticent on this because I'm more pragmatic than political. Please don't interpret this as belittling any particular position, I just prefer to view this issue primarily through the lens of a pragmatic technologist for this discussion (to the extent possible). For discussions over beers;

Re: More inclusive naming

Hi Ann, good points in general. With regards to "blacklist" I think we can assume that the non native speakers who actually did not know the term will be familiar with it by now*, since there is a successful TV show that is literally called "The Blacklist" (going into its 8th season), for whi

Re: More inclusive naming

Hi Remko, I consider Konstantin our esteemed guest, since afaiu Apache picking up Groovy was big, and I meant what I said to Jenn exactly the way I said it :-) Cheers, mg On 15/06/2020 13:26, Remko Popma wrote: On Mon, Jun 15, 2020 at 2:12 PM Konstantin Boudnik >

Re: More inclusive naming

Just to voice my +1 instead of being silent. To me, "blacklist" associates "black" and "deny access" way too closely for 2020, and the suggested names are just better. -mikko > On 11. Jun 2020, at 17.50, Paul King wrote: > > Hi folks, > > Given recent world events, there are numerous proje

Re: More inclusive naming

+1 I also find the new aliases easier to understand and a welcome change. We should strive for tolerance, inclusivity, and listening to others over our own personal feelings. - Eric On Mon, Jun 15, 2020 at 7:09 AM Konstantin Boudnik wrote: > I don't think I was calling his email this way ;) bu

Re: More inclusive naming

I don't think I was calling his email this way ;) but rather reaffirming his point of view. -- With regards, Cos On 2020-06-15 18:26, Remko Popma wrote: On Mon, Jun 15, 2020 at 2:12 PM Konstantin Boudnik > wrote: Precisely, MG! This is what these discussi

Re: More inclusive naming

On Mon, Jun 15, 2020 at 2:12 PM Konstantin Boudnik wrote: > Precisely, MG! > > This is what these discussions are swaying us into: to forget that we > are first and foremost came here to enjoy this great Groovy language > which many of us are using day in and day out (thanks for the team that > h

Re: More inclusive naming

On 15.06.20 03:05, Anne wrote: Hi all I support (eventually) removing the terms 'blacklist' and 'whitelist', though my primary reason is different to the reasons already stated, and I thought it might be worth sharing why. It's generally recommended that names in programming be descriptive, and

Re: More inclusive naming

Precisely, MG! This is what these discussions are swaying us into: to forget that we are first and foremost came here to enjoy this great Groovy language which many of us are using day in and day out (thanks for the team that has made this possible!). We aren't just a bunch of marginalized g

Re: More inclusive naming

Hi all I support (eventually) removing the terms 'blacklist' and 'whitelist', though my primary reason is different to the reasons already stated, and I thought it might be worth sharing why. It's generally recommended that names in programming be descriptive, and that cultural references be avoi

Re: More inclusive naming

On 14/06/2020 15:34, Jenn Strater wrote: may make members of marginalized groups (like myself) To me you are another person that likes or is interested in Groovy as a programming language You are welcome, mg

Re: More inclusive naming

conversation. We've deviated quite a bit from the original proposal for one instance of more inclusive naming. Jenn On Sun, Jun 14, 2020 at 7:06 AM Remko Popma <mailto:remko.po...@gmail.com>> wrote: Cos, Thank you for the clarification. I have a slightly different

Re: More inclusive naming

nal proposal for one instance of more inclusive naming. Jenn On Sun, Jun 14, 2020 at 7:06 AM Remko Popma wrote: > Cos, > > Thank you for the clarification. I have a slightly different worldview, > but that is okay. :-) > > We may not be as perfect as we think we are. Ou

Re: More inclusive naming

Cos, Thank you for the clarification. I have a slightly different worldview, but that is okay. :-) We may not be as perfect as we think we are. Our goal is to make our community more inclusive. Jenn, being one of the rare female engineers we have in our larger IT community, may have some interest

Re: More inclusive naming

Thanks for kind words Remko. But I am not trying to blame myself for anything. I am perfectly aware about my limits as in 'you can lead a horse to the water, but can't force it to drink'. In fact, I know for sure that ASF in general hasn't ever pushed anyone out, not even for brain-dead coding ;)

Re: More inclusive naming

Thank you for chiming in, Cos. I actually read Jenn's comment to mean the IT community in general, not this project. In general I am a big fan of blaming myself first to try and learn, rather than seeking to blame outside factors, but I would not recommend that you try to take personal responsibil

Re: More inclusive naming

Thank you for chiming in, Jenn. As you mention "problems our community faces with inclusivity" - would you mind mention a case of such a problem in the past? I was one of the mentors of this project (as in was a part of it from its early days in ASF), so I guess I am missing something in this

Re: More inclusive naming

Hi everyone, I find this thread especially the responses very educational in regards to the problems our community faces with inclusivity. I know my vote doesn't count, but +1 from me. Jenn On Sat, Jun 13, 2020 at 9:59 AM Thibault Kruse wrote: > On Sat, Jun 13, 2020, 19:18 Alessio Stalla > wr

Re: More inclusive naming

On Sat, Jun 13, 2020, 19:18 Alessio Stalla wrote: > Well, perhaps it ought to be "black" people who get to say whether they > feel offended by white/blacklist, and in that E. Kemokai's answer is very > valuable. > Some expressions are non-inclusive even if no person were to feel offended by them

Re: More inclusive naming

Ladies — if any in this sad debate — and gentlemen, > Well, perhaps it ought to be "black" people who get to say whether they feel > offended by white/blacklist Indeed. Myself, I invariably find thoughts of Walter E. Williams highly worth studying. Amongst others, he also wrote “The true test

Re: More inclusive naming

Well said! > If we're doing this to "be on the right side" Or "there are some groups projecting their own inner guilt and trying to convince the rest of us they are on a moral high ground aka right side". But because of their record of implementing poly-logism and moral relativism arguments

Re: More inclusive naming

Well, perhaps it ought to be "black" people who get to say whether they feel offended by white/blacklist, and in that E. Kemokai's answer is very valuable. If we're doing this because someone is being hurt by some offending language, then +1. If we're doing this to "be on the right side", then -1 f

Re: More inclusive naming

Hi, On 2020-06-13 07:45, MG wrote: Believe me, I do so understand that - but as an atheist by choice from a young age, I do not want to live in a deeply irrational world, where everything you say can be considered racist or insensitive, even if that makes no sense whatsoever, just because somebo

Re: More inclusive naming

Believe me, I do so understand that - but as an atheist by choice from a young age, I do not want to live in a deeply irrational world, where everything you say can be considered racist or insensitive, even if that makes no sense whatsoever, just because somebody believes it to be that way. The

Re: More inclusive naming

+1 Lurker on the Groovy forum and developer of this thing ( https://codesolvent.com/) which makes use of Groovy. I also happen to be "black". I am not personally offended by the use of these labels since I know the initiation of their use was probably not motivated by malice, I do however underst

Re: More inclusive naming

On 12.06.20 19:25, MG wrote: Well said. I would add to that, that in IT "blacklist" is a purely technical term, with the "black" having imho no association to people. Logic has nothing to do with this. There are trends in the public views and language you have to follow, unless you want to sta

Re: More inclusive naming

Well said. I would add to that, that in IT "blacklist" is a purely technical term, with the "black" having imho no association to people. Even if etymology can be problematic in such questions, I also could not find any indication in the etymology of the word* that it has anything to do with

Re: More inclusive naming

Thank you, Paul, appreciate the details! Aliases seem like a reasonable way to go. Let's keep them both for a while and see how the new stuff getting traction. After all, forcing someone to use 'blacklist' or 'disallowed' seem to be arbitrary and equally sub-optimal. The keyword in this case i

Re: More inclusive naming

As per my comments to Cos, I am inclined to remove the old names slowly. I'll put together a PR where the new aliases become the prominent ones but the old ones remain and are deprecated in 4. Cheers, Paul. On Fri, Jun 12, 2020 at 1:19 AM Andres Almiray wrote: > +1 Agreed, > > Aliases in 3.x (s

Re: More inclusive naming

I agree we should minimise breaking existing code. I suspect deprecating in 4 but leaving around might be the best compromise. The goal of the change is that anyone who doesn't want to see/use the old aliases shouldn't have to. And we should make the new names the prominent ones in the documentati

Re: More inclusive naming

+1 "In the end, we will remember not the words of our enemies, but the silence of our friends." -- Martin Luther King Remko. On Fri, Jun 12, 2020 at 2:17 AM Adam L. Davis wrote: > +1 > > On Thu, Jun 11, 2020 at 12:12 PM Søren Berg Glasius > wrote: > > > > +1 > > > > Best regards / Med venlig

Re: More inclusive naming

+1 On Thu, Jun 11, 2020 at 12:12 PM Søren Berg Glasius wrote: > > +1 > > Best regards / Med venlig hilsen, > Søren Berg Glasius > > Hedevej 1, Gl. Rye, 8680 Ry, Denmark > Mobile: +45 40 44 91 88, Skype: sbglasius > --- Press ESC once to quit - twice to save the changes. > > > Den tor. 11. jun. 20

Re: More inclusive naming

+1 Best regards / Med venlig hilsen, Søren Berg Glasius Hedevej 1, Gl. Rye, 8680 Ry, Denmark Mobile: +45 40 44 91 88, Skype: sbglasius --- Press ESC once to quit - twice to save the changes. Den tor. 11. jun. 2020 kl. 16.50 skrev Paul King : > Hi folks, > > Given recent world events, there are

Re: More inclusive naming

+1 Le jeu. 11 juin 2020 à 17:19, Andres Almiray a écrit : > +1 Agreed, > > Aliases in 3.x (should we target 2.x if there's a 2.5.13?) > We know that Groovy 4.0 will break binary compatibility due to removal of > split packages. We can remove the old names in Groovy 4.0. > > Cheers, > Andres > >

Re: More inclusive naming

+1 Agreed, Aliases in 3.x (should we target 2.x if there's a 2.5.13?) We know that Groovy 4.0 will break binary compatibility due to removal of split packages. We can remove the old names in Groovy 4.0. Cheers, Andres --- Java Champion; Groovy Enthusiast h

Re: More inclusive naming

Hey fellas! Wearing my hat of a software developer, using Groovy quite extensively for the last decade, I'd like to understand the ramifications of the initiative: - at some point I would have to go back and comb through my code and change/recompile everything that would be affected by the pr

Re: More inclusive naming

+1, that's a great idea! On Thu, Jun 11, 2020 at 5:08 PM Cédric Champeau wrote: > +1 > > Le jeu. 11 juin 2020 à 16:56, Jeff Beck a écrit : > >> I find those aliases easier to understand. So I think it's a great >> improvement. >> >> Jeff >> >> On Thu, Jun 11, 2020, 9:50 AM Paul King wrote: >>

Re: More inclusive naming

+1 On Thu, Jun 11, 2020 at 5:08 PM Cédric Champeau wrote: > +1 > > Le jeu. 11 juin 2020 à 16:56, Jeff Beck a écrit : > >> I find those aliases easier to understand. So I think it's a great >> improvement. >> >> Jeff >> >> On Thu, Jun 11, 2020, 9:50 AM Paul King wrote: >> >>> Hi folks, >>> >>>

Re: More inclusive naming

+1 Le jeu. 11 juin 2020 à 16:56, Jeff Beck a écrit : > I find those aliases easier to understand. So I think it's a great > improvement. > > Jeff > > On Thu, Jun 11, 2020, 9:50 AM Paul King wrote: > >> Hi folks, >> >> Given recent world events, there are numerous projects that are taking >> the

Re: More inclusive naming

I find those aliases easier to understand. So I think it's a great improvement. Jeff On Thu, Jun 11, 2020, 9:50 AM Paul King wrote: > Hi folks, > > Given recent world events, there are numerous projects that are taking the > opportunity to use more inclusive terminology especially in names with

More inclusive naming

Hi folks, Given recent world events, there are numerous projects that are taking the opportunity to use more inclusive terminology especially in names within APIs. E.g. getting rid of things like master/slave, blacklist/whitelist, etc. While I have never witnessed any racist behavior in the Groovy