Thanks for kind words Remko. But I am not trying to blame myself for anything.
I am perfectly aware about my limits as in 'you can lead a horse to the water,
but can't force it to drink'. In fact, I know for sure that ASF in general
hasn't ever pushed anyone out, not even for brain-dead coding ;) Most of the
problems you're mentioning don't stand critical multi-factor analysis
that includes personal interests, education preferences, and so on.
Just to give you an example: would you consider problematic that I am never
wanted to become a nurse or a botanist? Would you encourage me to go for it?
Why? And why would I pay any attention whatsoever for encouragement of this
sort?
I know this community never had aforementioned issues. And this is exactly why
I asked for an example, because for an occasional passerby with heightened
demand for social justice the expression
"problems our community faces with inclusivity"
being left without an answer would be indicative of some deep rooted practices
of rejecting people for whatever reasons.
Perhaps, you'll find of interest [1] where community development is being
discussed regularly.
[1] https://lists.apache.org/list.html?d...@community.apache.org:lte=3M:
With best regards,
Cos
On Sun, Jun 14, 2020 at 03:20PM, Remko Popma wrote:
> Thank you for chiming in, Cos.
>
> I actually read Jenn's comment to mean the IT community in general, not
> this project.
> In general I am a big fan of blaming myself first to try and learn, rather
> than seeking to blame outside factors, but I would not recommend that you
> try to take personal responsibility for the very low percentage of for
> example female engineers, female managers, or people of color in IT in
> general.
> We can only try to be aware of the biases that we inevitably have, and make
> our projects and interactions as welcoming as possible.
> I joined this project fairly recently, so I wasn't there when you were
> mentoring, but I am sure you did a great job.
>
> Remko
>
>
> On Sun, Jun 14, 2020 at 1:13 PM Konstantin Boudnik <c...@apache.org> wrote:
>
> > Thank you for chiming in, Jenn.
> >
> > As you mention "problems our community faces with inclusivity" - would
> > you mind mention a case of such a problem in the past? I was one of the
> > mentors of this project (as in was a part of it from its early days in
> > ASF), so I guess I am missing something in this regard. And it would
> > help me to do my job better next time as a mentor of new projects.
> >
> > Feel free to send me a private note if you feel uncomfortable to share
> > this on dev@
> >
> > --
> > Thank you,
> > Cos
> >
> > On 2020-06-13 23:23, Jenn Strater wrote:
> > > Hi everyone,
> > >
> > > I find this thread especially the responses very educational in regards
> > > to the problems our community faces with inclusivity. I know my vote
> > > doesn't count, but +1 from me.
> > >
> > > Jenn
> > >
> > > On Sat, Jun 13, 2020 at 9:59 AM Thibault Kruse <tibokr...@googlemail.com
> > > <mailto:tibokr...@googlemail.com>> wrote:
> > >
> > > On Sat, Jun 13, 2020, 19:18 Alessio Stalla <alessiosta...@gmail.com
> > > <mailto:alessiosta...@gmail.com>> wrote:
> > >
> > > Well, perhaps it ought to be "black" people who get to say
> > > whether they feel offended by white/blacklist, and in that E.
> > > Kemokai's answer is very valuable.
> > >
> > >
> > > Some expressions are non-inclusive even if no person were to feel
> > > offended by them. The typical case against "blacklist" can be found
> > > e.g here:
> > >
> > https://chromium.googlesource.com/chromium/src/+/master/styleguide/inclusive_code.md
> > >
> > > "Terms such as “blacklist” and “whitelist” reinforce the notion that
> > > black==bad and white==good. 'That Word /Black'/, by Langston Hughes
> > > <
> > https://mcwriting11.blogspot.com/2014/06/that-word-black-by-langston-hughes.html
> > > illustrates
> > > this problem in a lighthearted, if somewhat pointed way."
> > >
> > > This has been discussed so often online right now, it does not seem
> > > useful to discuss it again starting at zero without reference to an
> > > existing discussion.
> > >
> >
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