Appreciate the effort Jenn! We all live in the world which is constantly
being inconsiderate to someone's feelings and comfort zones. And - from
a strictly mathematical standpoint - finding a common subset of terms
that won't be offensive for an arbitrary reason to an unknown someone
will leave us with a very small and poor semantic space. That's how
common denominators work.
And this is exactly why people discriminate. In fact, we discriminate
all the time, every choice we make is an act of discrimination: from
color of the shirt, to preferences of our soul mates, to the way we are
going to depart this world (as some might not be as carbon neurtal as
others).
This morning I chose a burger with bacon for my branch. Perhaps I have
offended a few people in that restaurant with different dietary choices,
but they went their ways and I went mine. And may be another three
hundred vegans will faint from just reading this. I don't know for sure.
But I would make the same choice again even if knew. Because my choice
is a voluntary act and doesn't coerse anyone into doing the same thing.
Exactly as I don't mind people drinking Pepsi although I know that HFCS
gives one diabetes. I am not complaining that people make their choices
which might offend me in some way, unless they actually cause harm to my
being.
This is why the world we inhabit worth living in: we all different and
it is great! Let's just accept it.
--
With regards,
Cos
On 2020-06-14 20:34, Jenn Strater wrote:
I was trying to be polite. I meant that seeing some of the
offensive things that have been said in this conversation, in
particular, may make members of marginalized groups(like myself) feel
less comfortable bringing up issues of inclusivity. Just because no one
has felt comfortable enough to report being pushed out, doesn't mean it
hasn't happened. The community is much larger than just the people here.
Many people watch these lists without engaging and many don't subscribe
at all.
We should also probably end this conversation. We've deviated quite a
bit from the original proposal for one instance of more inclusive naming.
Jenn
On Sun, Jun 14, 2020 at 7:06 AM Remko Popma <remko.po...@gmail.com
<mailto:remko.po...@gmail.com>> wrote:
Cos,
Thank you for the clarification. I have a slightly different
worldview, but that is okay. :-)
We may not be as perfect as we think we are. Our goal is to make our
community more inclusive.
Jenn, being one of the rare female engineers we have in our larger
IT community, may have some interesting insights.
So let's not get all defensive about some words that could be taken
many ways.
I consider you a guest in this community, just like Jenn. If she is
an occasional passerby, then so are you. :-)
Guests are welcome, and I would like everyone in our community, as
well as our guests, to be nice to each other, so that more guests
stay and become part of our community.
Remko.
On Sun, Jun 14, 2020 at 4:12 PM Konstantin Boudnik <c...@apache.org
<mailto:c...@apache.org>> wrote:
Thanks for kind words Remko. But I am not trying to blame myself
for anything.
I am perfectly aware about my limits as in 'you can lead a horse
to the water,
but can't force it to drink'. In fact, I know for sure that ASF
in general
hasn't ever pushed anyone out, not even for brain-dead coding ;)
Most of the
problems you're mentioning don't stand critical multi-factor
analysis
that includes personal interests, education preferences, and so on.
Just to give you an example: would you consider problematic that
I am never
wanted to become a nurse or a botanist? Would you encourage me
to go for it?
Why? And why would I pay any attention whatsoever for
encouragement of this
sort?
I know this community never had aforementioned issues. And this
is exactly why
I asked for an example, because for an occasional passerby with
heightened
demand for social justice the expression
"problems our community faces with inclusivity"
being left without an answer would be indicative of some deep
rooted practices
of rejecting people for whatever reasons.
Perhaps, you'll find of interest [1] where community development
is being
discussed regularly.
[1]
https://lists.apache.org/list.html?d...@community.apache.org:lte=3M:
With best regards,
Cos
On Sun, Jun 14, 2020 at 03:20PM, Remko Popma wrote:
> Thank you for chiming in, Cos.
>
> I actually read Jenn's comment to mean the IT community in
general, not
> this project.
> In general I am a big fan of blaming myself first to try and
learn, rather
> than seeking to blame outside factors, but I would not
recommend that you
> try to take personal responsibility for the very low
percentage of for
> example female engineers, female managers, or people of color
in IT in
> general.
> We can only try to be aware of the biases that we inevitably
have, and make
> our projects and interactions as welcoming as possible.
> I joined this project fairly recently, so I wasn't there when
you were
> mentoring, but I am sure you did a great job.
>
> Remko
>
>
> On Sun, Jun 14, 2020 at 1:13 PM Konstantin Boudnik
<c...@apache.org <mailto:c...@apache.org>> wrote:
>
> > Thank you for chiming in, Jenn.
> >
> > As you mention "problems our community faces with
inclusivity" - would
> > you mind mention a case of such a problem in the past? I
was one of the
> > mentors of this project (as in was a part of it from its
early days in
> > ASF), so I guess I am missing something in this regard. And
it would
> > help me to do my job better next time as a mentor of new
projects.
> >
> > Feel free to send me a private note if you feel
uncomfortable to share
> > this on dev@
> >
> > --
> > Thank you,
> > Cos
> >
> > On 2020-06-13 23:23, Jenn Strater wrote:
> > > Hi everyone,
> > >
> > > I find this thread especially the responses very
educational in regards
> > > to the problems our community faces with inclusivity. I
know my vote
> > > doesn't count, but +1 from me.
> > >
> > > Jenn
> > >
> > > On Sat, Jun 13, 2020 at 9:59 AM Thibault Kruse
<tibokr...@googlemail.com <mailto:tibokr...@googlemail.com>
> > > <mailto:tibokr...@googlemail.com
<mailto:tibokr...@googlemail.com>>> wrote:
> > >
> > > On Sat, Jun 13, 2020, 19:18 Alessio Stalla
<alessiosta...@gmail.com <mailto:alessiosta...@gmail.com>
> > > <mailto:alessiosta...@gmail.com
<mailto:alessiosta...@gmail.com>>> wrote:
> > >
> > > Well, perhaps it ought to be "black" people who
get to say
> > > whether they feel offended by white/blacklist,
and in that E.
> > > Kemokai's answer is very valuable.
> > >
> > >
> > > Some expressions are non-inclusive even if no person
were to feel
> > > offended by them. The typical case against
"blacklist" can be found
> > > e.g here:
> > >
> >
https://chromium.googlesource.com/chromium/src/+/master/styleguide/inclusive_code.md
> > >
> > > "Terms such as “blacklist” and “whitelist” reinforce
the notion that
> > > black==bad and white==good. 'That Word /Black'/, by
Langston Hughes
> > > <
> >
https://mcwriting11.blogspot.com/2014/06/that-word-black-by-langston-hughes.html
> > > illustrates
> > > this problem in a lighthearted, if somewhat pointed way."
> > >
> > > This has been discussed so often online right now, it
does not seem
> > > useful to discuss it again starting at zero without
reference to an
> > > existing discussion.
> > >
> >
