I was trying to be polite. I meant that seeing some of the offensive things that have been said in this conversation, in particular, may make members of marginalized groups(like myself) feel less comfortable bringing up issues of inclusivity. Just because no one has felt comfortable enough to report being pushed out, doesn't mean it hasn't happened. The community is much larger than just the people here. Many people watch these lists without engaging and many don't subscribe at all.
We should also probably end this conversation. We've deviated quite a bit from the original proposal for one instance of more inclusive naming. Jenn On Sun, Jun 14, 2020 at 7:06 AM Remko Popma <remko.po...@gmail.com> wrote: > Cos, > > Thank you for the clarification. I have a slightly different worldview, > but that is okay. :-) > > We may not be as perfect as we think we are. Our goal is to make our > community more inclusive. > Jenn, being one of the rare female engineers we have in our larger IT > community, may have some interesting insights. > > So let's not get all defensive about some words that could be taken many > ways. > > I consider you a guest in this community, just like Jenn. If she is an > occasional passerby, then so are you. :-) > Guests are welcome, and I would like everyone in our community, as well as > our guests, to be nice to each other, so that more guests stay and become > part of our community. > > Remko. > > On Sun, Jun 14, 2020 at 4:12 PM Konstantin Boudnik <c...@apache.org> wrote: > >> Thanks for kind words Remko. But I am not trying to blame myself for >> anything. >> >> I am perfectly aware about my limits as in 'you can lead a horse to the >> water, >> but can't force it to drink'. In fact, I know for sure that ASF in general >> hasn't ever pushed anyone out, not even for brain-dead coding ;) Most of >> the >> problems you're mentioning don't stand critical multi-factor analysis >> that includes personal interests, education preferences, and so on. >> >> Just to give you an example: would you consider problematic that I am >> never >> wanted to become a nurse or a botanist? Would you encourage me to go for >> it? >> Why? And why would I pay any attention whatsoever for encouragement of >> this >> sort? >> >> I know this community never had aforementioned issues. And this is >> exactly why >> I asked for an example, because for an occasional passerby with heightened >> demand for social justice the expression >> >> "problems our community faces with inclusivity" >> >> being left without an answer would be indicative of some deep rooted >> practices >> of rejecting people for whatever reasons. >> >> Perhaps, you'll find of interest [1] where community development is being >> discussed regularly. >> >> [1] https://lists.apache.org/list.html?d...@community.apache.org:lte=3M: >> >> With best regards, >> Cos >> >> On Sun, Jun 14, 2020 at 03:20PM, Remko Popma wrote: >> > Thank you for chiming in, Cos. >> > >> > I actually read Jenn's comment to mean the IT community in general, not >> > this project. >> > In general I am a big fan of blaming myself first to try and learn, >> rather >> > than seeking to blame outside factors, but I would not recommend that >> you >> > try to take personal responsibility for the very low percentage of for >> > example female engineers, female managers, or people of color in IT in >> > general. >> > We can only try to be aware of the biases that we inevitably have, and >> make >> > our projects and interactions as welcoming as possible. >> > I joined this project fairly recently, so I wasn't there when you were >> > mentoring, but I am sure you did a great job. >> > >> > Remko >> > >> > >> > On Sun, Jun 14, 2020 at 1:13 PM Konstantin Boudnik <c...@apache.org> >> wrote: >> > >> > > Thank you for chiming in, Jenn. >> > > >> > > As you mention "problems our community faces with inclusivity" - would >> > > you mind mention a case of such a problem in the past? I was one of >> the >> > > mentors of this project (as in was a part of it from its early days in >> > > ASF), so I guess I am missing something in this regard. And it would >> > > help me to do my job better next time as a mentor of new projects. >> > > >> > > Feel free to send me a private note if you feel uncomfortable to share >> > > this on dev@ >> > > >> > > -- >> > > Thank you, >> > > Cos >> > > >> > > On 2020-06-13 23:23, Jenn Strater wrote: >> > > > Hi everyone, >> > > > >> > > > I find this thread especially the responses very educational in >> regards >> > > > to the problems our community faces with inclusivity. I know my vote >> > > > doesn't count, but +1 from me. >> > > > >> > > > Jenn >> > > > >> > > > On Sat, Jun 13, 2020 at 9:59 AM Thibault Kruse < >> tibokr...@googlemail.com >> > > > <mailto:tibokr...@googlemail.com>> wrote: >> > > > >> > > > On Sat, Jun 13, 2020, 19:18 Alessio Stalla < >> alessiosta...@gmail.com >> > > > <mailto:alessiosta...@gmail.com>> wrote: >> > > > >> > > > Well, perhaps it ought to be "black" people who get to say >> > > > whether they feel offended by white/blacklist, and in that >> E. >> > > > Kemokai's answer is very valuable. >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > Some expressions are non-inclusive even if no person were to >> feel >> > > > offended by them. The typical case against "blacklist" can be >> found >> > > > e.g here: >> > > > >> > > >> https://chromium.googlesource.com/chromium/src/+/master/styleguide/inclusive_code.md >> > > > >> > > > "Terms such as “blacklist” and “whitelist” reinforce the notion >> that >> > > > black==bad and white==good. 'That Word /Black'/, by Langston >> Hughes >> > > > < >> > > >> https://mcwriting11.blogspot.com/2014/06/that-word-black-by-langston-hughes.html >> > > > illustrates >> > > > this problem in a lighthearted, if somewhat pointed way." >> > > > >> > > > This has been discussed so often online right now, it does not >> seem >> > > > useful to discuss it again starting at zero without reference >> to an >> > > > existing discussion. >> > > > >> > > >> >>
