On Mi, 24 sep 14, 14:05:11, Steve Litt wrote:
> On Wed, 24 Sep 2014 10:19:55 +0300
> Andrei POPESCU wrote:
>
> > On Ma, 23 sep 14, 19:48:38, Steve Litt wrote:
> > > On Tue, 23 Sep 2014 21:10:22 +0100
> > > Jonathan de Boyne Pollard
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > http://homepage.ntlworld.com./jonath
On Wed 24 Sep 2014 at 14:05:11 -0400, Steve Litt wrote:
> On Wed, 24 Sep 2014 10:19:55 +0300
> Andrei POPESCU wrote:
>
> > On Ma, 23 sep 14, 19:48:38, Steve Litt wrote:
> > > On Tue, 23 Sep 2014 21:10:22 +0100
> > > Jonathan de Boyne Pollard
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > http://homepage.ntlworld.
On Wed, 24 Sep 2014 10:19:55 +0300
Andrei POPESCU wrote:
> On Ma, 23 sep 14, 19:48:38, Steve Litt wrote:
> > On Tue, 23 Sep 2014 21:10:22 +0100
> > Jonathan de Boyne Pollard
> > wrote:
> >
> > > http://homepage.ntlworld.com./jonathan.deboynepollard/Softwares/nosh.html
> >
> > Very, very nice,
On Ma, 23 sep 14, 19:48:38, Steve Litt wrote:
> On Tue, 23 Sep 2014 21:10:22 +0100
> Jonathan de Boyne Pollard
> wrote:
>
> > http://homepage.ntlworld.com./jonathan.deboynepollard/Softwares/nosh.html
>
> Very, very nice, Jonathan! I'd be a lot happier person had the Debian
> crew had selected no
On Tue, 23 Sep 2014 21:10:22 +0100
Jonathan de Boyne Pollard
wrote:
> http://homepage.ntlworld.com./jonathan.deboynepollard/Softwares/nosh.html
Very, very nice, Jonathan! I'd be a lot happier person had the Debian
crew had selected nosh as PID 1 and the daemon manager, and had various
daemons m
T.J. Duchene:
> Why is it not possible to create a completely generic shell script -
> basically ala SysV that can parse systemd config files for those use cases
> where Systemd is undesirable?
Your question takes a falsehood as its premise. It is far from
impossible to parse .INI files with s
Andrei POPESCU wrote:
> T.J. Duchene wrote:
> > Why is it not possible to create a completely generic shell script -
> > basically ala SysV that can parse systemd config files for those use cases
> > where Systemd is undesirable?
>
> https://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2014/02/msg00106.html
No
On Sun, Sep 21, 2014 at 7:28 AM, Steve Litt wrote:
> On Sat, 20 Sep 2014 09:45:30 +0900
> Joel Rees wrote:
I assume you mean
>[...]
>> Do we use a streamlined init, forcing interprocess communication to be
>> well-defined and explicit?
>>[...]
> Check this out:
>
> http://code.dogmap.org/svscan
On Sat, 20 Sep 2014 09:45:30 +0900
Joel Rees wrote:
> On Sat, Sep 20, 2014 at 5:28 AM, Steve Litt
> wrote:
> > On Fri, 19 Sep 2014 21:08:45 +0400
> > Reco wrote:
> >
> >
> >> 4) Why re-implementing systemd? Writing your own init is much more
> >> fun, as [1] shows to us.
> >
> > What other thin
On Sat, Sep 20, 2014 at 10:44:23PM +0100, Jonathan Dowland wrote:
> On Thu, Sep 18, 2014 at 10:42:21AM -0700, agr wrote:
> > I have been using Debian for almost 14 years continuosly, and i had to
> > transfered 1 server to OpenBSD, because the comments in this list are
> > uncertain; i
> > can n
On Thu, Sep 18, 2014 at 10:42:21AM -0700, agr wrote:
> I have been using Debian for almost 14 years continuosly, and i had to
> transfered 1 server to OpenBSD, because the comments in this list are
> uncertain; i
> can not wait for Jessi to do the transition.
There are problems in jessie at th
On 09/19/2014 07:34 PM, Joel Rees wrote:
On Sat, Sep 20, 2014 at 1:36 AM, T.J. Duchene wrote:
I do not understand something that has been bugging me for a while and I'd
like to ask the many minds of the list why this would not be possible,
especially since Debian has some of the best Linux peop
On Sat, Sep 20, 2014 at 07:36:06AM +0900, Joel Rees wrote:
> On Fri, Sep 19, 2014 at 10:55 PM, Chris Bannister
> wrote:
> > On Thu, Sep 18, 2014 at 12:55:41PM -0500, John Hasler wrote:
> >> Erwan David writes:
> >> > It is also importat to know if it is worth the effort to report bugs
> >> > on so
On Vi, 19 sep 14, 11:36:58, T.J. Duchene wrote:
>
> Why is it not possible to create a completely generic shell script -
> basically ala SysV that can parse systemd config files for those use cases
> where Systemd is undesirable?
https://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2014/02/msg00106.html
Kind
agr writes:
> Do you know, why DDs are insisting to include a bit of Systemd?
What bit might that be?
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On Sat, 20 Sep 2014 08:34:02 +0900
Joel Rees wrote:
> On Sat, Sep 20, 2014 at 1:36 AM, T.J. Duchene
> wrote:
> > What systemd does is basically a generic process of reading
> > parameters from a file and using them to start a service.
>
> If that were true, I don't think anyone would be fussin
On Fri, Sep 19, 2014 at 08:59:54PM +0300, Andrei POPESCU wrote:
> On Vi, 19 sep 14, 18:14:42, Joe wrote:
> > I'd certainly prefer that a systemd upgrade wasn't mandatory
> > during a wheezy-jessie upgrade.
>
> See https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=762194 It seems to
> me like what
On Sat, Sep 20, 2014 at 5:28 AM, Steve Litt wrote:
> On Fri, 19 Sep 2014 21:08:45 +0400
> Reco wrote:
>
>
>> 4) Why re-implementing systemd? Writing your own init is much more
>> fun, as [1] shows to us.
>
> What other things, besides firing up /dev/tty* and running all
> daemons, does an init pr
On Sat, Sep 20, 2014 at 8:27 AM, John Hasler wrote:
> Joel Rees writes:
>> I'm sure you don't mean that reportbug is able to automatically
>> generate the patches.
>
> That would be reportbug-ng-ng version .01. Not quite ready for
> uploading to Experimental. Its still got a few bugs that it has
I'm tending to think you intended these as rhetorical, but I'm also
inclined to believe that many on the list won't see what we wish was
obvious, so I'm going to respond.
On Sat, Sep 20, 2014 at 2:08 AM, Reco wrote:
> On Fri, 19 Sep 2014 11:36:58 -0500
> "T.J. Duchene" wrote:
>
>> Why is it not
On Sat, Sep 20, 2014 at 1:36 AM, T.J. Duchene wrote:
> I do not understand something that has been bugging me for a while and I'd
> like to ask the many minds of the list why this would not be possible,
> especially since Debian has some of the best Linux people out there, who
> have worked on the
Joel Rees writes:
> I'm sure you don't mean that reportbug is able to automatically
> generate the patches.
That would be reportbug-ng-ng version .01. Not quite ready for
uploading to Experimental. Its still got a few bugs that it hasn't
been able to generate patches for yet.
--
John Hasler
jh
On Fri, Sep 19, 2014 at 10:55 PM, Chris Bannister
wrote:
> On Thu, Sep 18, 2014 at 12:55:41PM -0500, John Hasler wrote:
>> Erwan David writes:
>> > It is also importat to know if it is worth the effort to report bugs
>> > on software which happen in a systemd-shim or sysvinitcore without any
>> >
On Fri, 19 Sep 2014 21:08:45 +0400
Reco wrote:
> 4) Why re-implementing systemd? Writing your own init is much more
> fun, as [1] shows to us.
What other things, besides firing up /dev/tty* and running all
daemons, does an init program absolutely have to do? For
authentication, is there any way
On Fri 19 Sep 2014 at 20:59:54 +0300, Andrei POPESCU wrote:
> On Vi, 19 sep 14, 18:14:42, Joe wrote:
> > I'd certainly prefer that a systemd upgrade wasn't mandatory
> > during a wheezy-jessie upgrade.
>
> See https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=762194 It seems to
> me like whateve
On Vi, 19 sep 14, 18:14:42, Joe wrote:
> I'd certainly prefer that a systemd upgrade wasn't mandatory
> during a wheezy-jessie upgrade.
See https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=762194 It seems to
me like whatever the outcome will be there will be a clearly documented
procedure for h
Ahoj,
Dňa Sat, 20 Sep 2014 01:51:56 +1200 Chris Bannister
napísal:
> On Thu, Sep 18, 2014 at 05:04:02PM +0100, J Rowan wrote:
> >
> > I'm aware that nothing can possibly be set in stone yet, but the
> > people responsible for systemd-shim and other compatibility
> > components must have a fair
On Sat, 20 Sep 2014 01:51:56 +1200
Chris Bannister wrote:
> On Thu, Sep 18, 2014 at 05:04:02PM +0100, J Rowan wrote:
> >
> > I'm aware that nothing can possibly be set in stone yet, but the
> > people responsible for systemd-shim and other compatibility
> > components must have a fair idea wheth
On Fri, 19 Sep 2014 11:36:58 -0500
"T.J. Duchene" wrote:
> Why is it not possible to create a completely generic shell script -
> basically ala SysV that can parse systemd config files for those use cases
> where Systemd is undesirable?
Everything is possible. Yet your question brings bunch of
I do not understand something that has been bugging me for a while and I'd
like to ask the many minds of the list why this would not be possible,
especially since Debian has some of the best Linux people out there, who
have worked on the system for 20+ years.
Why is it not possible to create a com
On Thu, Sep 18, 2014 at 01:56:47PM -0500, John Hasler wrote:
> Slavko writes:
> > I was try this some days ago (when latest systemd-shim goes into
> > testing). By my understand of the root of problem, the policykit based
> > users rights depends on libpam-systemd which relies on the
> > libsystemd
On Thu, Sep 18, 2014 at 12:55:41PM -0500, John Hasler wrote:
> Erwan David writes:
> > It is also importat to know if it is worth the effort to report bugs
> > on software which happen in a systemd-shim or sysvinitcore without any
> > systemd
>
> Yes. Provide patches when possible.
If reportbug
On Thu, Sep 18, 2014 at 05:04:02PM +0100, J Rowan wrote:
>
> I'm aware that nothing can possibly be set in stone yet, but the people
> responsible for systemd-shim and other compatibility components must
> have a fair idea whether these are intended as temporary workarounds
> until 'all' packages
2014/09/19 7:39 "Steve Litt" :
>
> On Thu, 18 Sep 2014 20:52:41 +0200
> B wrote:
>
> > On Thu, 18 Sep 2014 10:42:21 -0700
> > agr wrote:
> >
> > > I have been using Debian for almost 14 years continuosly, and i had
> > > to transfered 1 server to OpenBSD, because the comments in this
> > > li
On Thu, 18 Sep 2014 21:37:14 +0100
Martin Read wrote:
> On 18/09/14 19:37, Reco wrote:
> > Are those formats documented somewhere? I'm asking as suddenly I felt an
> > irresistible urge to write journald log viewer and a wireshark
> > dissector. Please note that 'documented' does not equal to 'th
On Thu, Sep 18, 2014 at 08:52:41PM +0200, B wrote:
> On Thu, 18 Sep 2014 10:42:21 -0700
> agr wrote:
>
> > I have been using Debian for almost 14 years continuosly, and i had to
> > transfered 1 server to OpenBSD, because the comments in this list are
> > uncertain; i can not wait for Jessi
On Thu, 18 Sep 2014 20:52:41 +0200
B wrote:
> On Thu, 18 Sep 2014 10:42:21 -0700
> agr wrote:
>
> > I have been using Debian for almost 14 years continuosly, and i had
> > to transfered 1 server to OpenBSD, because the comments in this
> > list are uncertain; i can not wait for Jessi to do
On 18/09/14 19:37, Reco wrote:
Are those formats documented somewhere? I'm asking as suddenly I felt an
irresistible urge to write journald log viewer and a wireshark
dissector. Please note that 'documented' does not equal to 'they
provide the source it's all there'.
The main page for systemd o
Ahoj,
Dňa Thu, 18 Sep 2014 13:56:47 -0500 John Hasler
napísal:
> Slavko writes:
> > I was try this some days ago (when latest systemd-shim goes into
> > testing). By my understand of the root of problem, the policykit
> > based users rights depends on libpam-systemd which relies on the
> > libsy
Slavko writes:
> I was try this some days ago (when latest systemd-shim goes into
> testing). By my understand of the root of problem, the policykit based
> users rights depends on libpam-systemd which relies on the
> libsystemd-login0 information about active and/or local user logins.
> And the li
On Thu, 18 Sep 2014 10:42:21 -0700
agr wrote:
> I have been using Debian for almost 14 years continuosly, and i had to
> transfered 1 server to OpenBSD, because the comments in this list are
> uncertain; i can not wait for Jessi to do the transition.
Could you tell us about this migration (eas
Hi.
On Thu, 18 Sep 2014 19:03:21 +0100
Martin Read wrote:
> However, at the time of this e-mail, it appears to have been covered by
> the Interface Stability Promise for nearly a year *at a minimum*; as of
> 24 Oct 2013 (the last time the page linked below was edited), journald's
> on-disk r
On Thu 18 Sep 2014 at 19:46:43 +0200, Slavko wrote:
> Dňa Thu, 18 Sep 2014 10:53:21 +0100 Brian
> napísal:
>
> > For anyone intending to install Jessie, which is the only thing which
> > matters for Debian and the immediate future, the practical
> > alternatives and direction to take have been d
On Thu, Sep 18, 2014 at 10:22:21AM -0500, T.J. Duchene wrote:
> Thanks very much, everyone.
>
> I especially appreciate the dependency information with no bias. Just the
> facts is always appreciated on an emotional issue such as this.
>
> The truth is that I can live with a stray library or a sh
On 18/09/14 17:33, Reco wrote:
1) Unstable journald format. Good luck finding that exact version of
journalctl to read logs over next several years.
When journald was *introduced*, systemd-journald's log file format was
not immediately finalized.
However, at the time of this e-mail, it appea
Erwan David writes:
> It is also importat to know if it is worth the effort to report bugs
> on software which happen in a systemd-shim or sysvinitcore without any
> systemd
Yes. Provide patches when possible.
--
John Hasler
jhas...@newsguy.com
Elmwood, WI USA
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On Thu 18 Sep 2014 at 17:04:02 +0100, J Rowan wrote:
> On Thu, 18 Sep 2014 10:53:21 +0100
> Brian wrote:
>
> > For anyone intending to install Jessie, which is the only thing which
> > matters for Debian and the immediate future, the practical
> > alternatives and direction to take have been des
Ahoj,
Dňa Thu, 18 Sep 2014 10:53:21 +0100 Brian
napísal:
> On Thu 18 Sep 2014 at 09:44:49 +0100, Joe wrote:
>
> > This is the basic purpose of this whole set of threads. Is there
> > *really* going to be a practical alternative to using systemd, and
> > if so, will Debian support it? It is, for
Ahoj,
Dňa Thu, 18 Sep 2014 15:29:00 +0100 Lisi Reisz
napísal:
> (Sorry, John. Mea culpa.)
>
> On Thursday 18 September 2014 14:00:45 John Hasler wrote:
> > Why do you refuse to install systemd-shim? Just because it has
> > "systemd" in the name?
> >
> > Providing systemd-shim or similar is re
J Rowan writes:
> Yes, this is understood, but is it the final word? We have a
> 'technology preview' of systemd in Wheezy, it will be the default in
> Jessie. Will it remain the default in the forseeable future or is it
> expected to become mandatory in a later release?
Debian policy is that for
On Thu, 18 Sep 2014 11:37:15 -0500
John Hasler wrote:
> Reco writes:
> > Oh, rly? Installing KDE4 on Debian/kFreeBSD does not pull systemd,
> > installing KDE4 on Debian/kLinux does. So, Debian project apparently
> > can influence KDE4 dependencies by using certain build options or
> > certain pa
Le 18/09/2014 18:04, J Rowan a écrit :
> On Thu, 18 Sep 2014 10:53:21 +0100
> Brian wrote:
>
>> On Thu 18 Sep 2014 at 09:44:49 +0100, Joe wrote:
>>
>>> So we're looking for some kind of direction here, hoping that
>>> someone who actually knows for sure will tell us whether the use of
>>> systemd
On Thu, 18 Sep 2014 10:53:21 +0100
Brian wrote:
> On Thu 18 Sep 2014 at 09:44:49 +0100, Joe wrote:
>
> >
> > So we're looking for some kind of direction here, hoping that
> > someone who actually knows for sure will tell us whether the use of
> > systemd as init will be completely unavoidable
Reco writes:
> Oh, rly? Installing KDE4 on Debian/kFreeBSD does not pull systemd,
> installing KDE4 on Debian/kLinux does. So, Debian project apparently
> can influence KDE4 dependencies by using certain build options or
> certain patches.
That's the FreeBSD port. Not the same upstream package.
<
On Thu, 18 Sep 2014 16:16:40 + (UTC)
Curt wrote:
> On 2014-09-18, Reco wrote:
> >
> > Oh, rly? Installing KDE4 on Debian/kFreeBSD does not pull systemd,
>
> Debian/kFreeBSD has a systemd port to pull in?
None that I'm aware of. But why existence of certain software must lead
to dependency
Hi.
On Thu, 18 Sep 2014 17:56:00 +0200
B wrote:
> You'd better, as it is even worse: junkD journal is in binary format
> and this journal isn't ACID compliant, so any error will render it
> unreadable; guess what? It has been rejected as "not a bug"
> (https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.
On Thursday 18 September 2014 16:49:47 Reco wrote:
> And, for the record, I refuse to consider using or abstaining of usage
> of systemd as a 'fault'.
Fault is also means responsibility. That is the meaning I was using. Of
course using it or not is not a "fault".
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On 2014-09-18, Reco wrote:
>
> Oh, rly? Installing KDE4 on Debian/kFreeBSD does not pull systemd,
Debian/kFreeBSD has a systemd port to pull in?
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On Thu, 18 Sep 2014 10:22:21 -0500
"T.J. Duchene" wrote:
> From the sound of things, I'd very much like to give Debian 8 the
> benefit of the doubt. I'll wait and see, if there are more posts and
> not dismiss it entirely. Until more information comes in down the
> road, it is probably prude
On Thu, 18 Sep 2014 16:24:56 +0100
Lisi Reisz wrote:
> I hear and pass on that at least once it can, in that one person has done it,
> and you complain because KDE4 still needs systemd. That is *not* Debian's
> fault. The Debian project is not responsible for KDE4. It is responsible
> for S
On Thursday 18 September 2014 16:02:56 Reco wrote:
> Hi.
>
> On Thu, 18 Sep 2014 15:29:00 +0100
>
> Lisi Reisz wrote:
> > Someone on the TDE list has just installed a functional Sid and TDE
> > without a sniff of systemd. Suspend isn't working yet.
> >
> > I haven't asked for proof!
>
> Does not
Thanks very much, everyone.
I especially appreciate the dependency information with no bias. Just
the facts is always appreciated on an emotional issue such as this.
The truth is that I can live with a stray library or a shim - but the
rest leaves me concerned.
Setting aside all of the cont
Hi.
On Thu, 18 Sep 2014 15:29:00 +0100
Lisi Reisz wrote:
> Someone on the TDE list has just installed a functional Sid and TDE without a
> sniff of systemd. Suspend isn't working yet.
>
> I haven't asked for proof!
Does not seems an achievement, given that TDE is a fork for KDE3. Now,
inst
(Sorry, John. Mea culpa.)
On Thursday 18 September 2014 14:00:45 John Hasler wrote:
> Why do you refuse to install systemd-shim? Just because it has
> "systemd" in the name?
>
> Providing systemd-shim or similar is really about the only thing Debian
> can do about upstreams deciding to make thei
Why do you refuse to install systemd-shim? Just because it has
"systemd" in the name?
Providing systemd-shim or similar is really about the only thing Debian
can do about upstreams deciding to make their packages dependent on
Systemd. The Gnome and KDE situations would be no different if Debian
On Thu 18 Sep 2014 at 12:41:40 +0200, Martin Steigerwald wrote:
> Am Donnerstag, 18. September 2014, 11:02:11 schrieb Brian:
> > On Thu 18 Sep 2014 at 11:27:32 +0200, Martin Steigerwald wrote:
> > > The following packages will be REMOVED:
> > Install systemd-shim first.
>
> It was installed as I
Am Donnerstag, 18. September 2014, 11:02:11 schrieb Brian:
> On Thu 18 Sep 2014 at 11:27:32 +0200, Martin Steigerwald wrote:
> > The following packages will be REMOVED:
> Install systemd-shim first.
It was installed as I ran the apt commend and it still is, cause if systemd
doesn´t boot I like to
Don't be rude. Many of us are not system programmers (some of us aren't
professional programmers at all, we just use computers) but are
(sometimes) able to gather enough useful information to help report or
even fix a bug.
But there's no point in putting any effort into reporting the kind of
th
On Thu 18 Sep 2014 at 11:27:32 +0200, Martin Steigerwald wrote:
> The following packages will be REMOVED:
Install systemd-shim first.
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On Thu 18 Sep 2014 at 09:44:49 +0100, Joe wrote:
> This is the basic purpose of this whole set of threads. Is there
> *really* going to be a practical alternative to using systemd, and if
> so, will Debian support it? It is, for example, perfectly possible to
> use Open Office in testing or unstab
Am Mittwoch, 17. September 2014, 17:16:57 schrieb T.J. Duchene:
> I'm asking this on the user list not because I am trying to incite yet
> another debate over the merits of Systemd, but because I am assuming that
> the user list probably has the best chance of reaching out to the most
> people to g
On Thu, 18 Sep 2014 06:51:56 +0100
Lisi Reisz wrote:
> On Thursday 18 September 2014 06:28:48 Don Armstrong wrote:
> > You might also need to either do the work to help make it
> > supported, or help enable other people to do the work.
>
> Do any work to get what they want? Heaven forfend!
>
On Thursday 18 September 2014 06:28:48 Don Armstrong wrote:
> You might also need to either do the work to help make it supported, or
> help enable other people to do the work.
Do any work to get what they want? Heaven forfend!
Lisi
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On Wed, 17 Sep 2014, T.J. Duchene wrote:
> What I want to know with complete surety is:
>
> a) If I will have to have systemd installed even if I do not want it.
No, unless you install something which requires systemd to be PID 1.
> b) If completely purging Systemd and using an offered alterna
On Wed, 17 Sep 2014 17:16:57 -0500
"T.J. Duchene" wrote:
> The decision has been made by the
> Debian TC. So be it.
Yeah, the nsa also made the decision to infect a max of computers
and phones among other things like spying on everybody… So be it?
(usual defense: "if you have nothing to hide,
I'm asking this on the user list not because I am trying to incite yet
another debate over the merits of Systemd, but because I am assuming that
the user list probably has the best chance of reaching out to the most
people to get an answer.
I do not care which init is better for what. I do not ca
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