Re: [RE-wrenches] Battery capacity testers

[bob ellison]

The only way to do a capacity test is with a load bank over the rated discharge 
period of the batteries, it they have a 6 hour rate, use that one. The 20 hour 
rate takes too long! Voltage is a moving target and pretty much useless unless 
the battery has been sitting with no charge or discharge for 12 hours or so, 
and all that tells you is the state of charge nothing about the capacity of the 
battery.

 

If you are going to buy a load bank the old resistor load banks are the best 
choices, the newer electronic units are too sensitive to damage and the failure 
rate is quite high according to my suppliers. They have gone back to the 
resistor banks in most cases. The load banks can test up to a 48 volt bank at 
one time, so you don’t need to test each cell for 6 hours, you can spend 6 
hours and test them all at once! But your still going to spend 6 hours to do a 
correct test

 

My first experience with gels was bad enough to make me swear off them and that 
was 18 years ago. I am sure they have I improved but most of my work is off 
grid and flooded work best in that use.

 

Later,

Bob Ellison

 

 

 

 

From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org 
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of North Texas 
Renewable Energy Inc
Sent: Monday, October 04, 2010 9:36 AM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Battery capacity testers

 

 

Todd

I've heard the same arguement, as well as its inverse. The battery choice was 
the decision of the system owner. I know they are more sensitive to 
charge/discharge abuse but I see the full charge rate last week at 52.xx V, 
just like day 1and I trust the Trimetric and the Sunny Islands. We're taking 
down the entire system to upgrade & install a 400A transfer switch so the 
batteries will have time to stabilize for the VOC check & cleaning. 

I guess a more accurate question would be is it good enough to properly check 
cell VOC and not bother with the discharge capacity check? A compromise could 
be cap check 12V blocks of cells instead of all 24 separately. Or is the 
capacity checker a waste of money.

Jim

 

 

 

 Original Message-
From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org 
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org]on Behalf Of 
toddc...@finestplanet.com
Sent: Monday, October 04, 2010 2:23 AM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Battery capacity testers

I know many on this list disagree, but this sounds SO typical for sealed 
batteries. It is why I never use em... never! If they are 5 years old, you are 
probably at the limit of their life. Replace em with flooded lead calciums and 
your customers (and you) will be happy for 20+ years.

my .o2

Todd



On Sunday, October 3, 2010 9:28pm, "North Texas Renewable Energy Inc" 
 said:

I have a customer with a set of 24 Concord PVX-6480s that have twice failed 
during grid outages during the night. No large loads are on the critical load 
panel and, since it's at night when they drop to 50% dod, I'm not sure what's 
up with them. I plan on cleaning and retightning all the cable connections 
first to eliminate that possibility then checking VOC of each cell. 

Eventually we'll install a 25 kW genset but my first task is to find out the 
state of the batterys. The system turns five next spring so I don't think they 
are near an early death. The BOS is 2 Sunny Island 4248s with upgraded chipsets 
and the charger is set to spec though that may need to be bumped up. The only 
culprit I suspect is the high summer temperatures in this unconditioned 
equipment room. 

Finally it may be time to invest in a capacity tester. What brand is popular 
among those Wrenches with lots of experience in diagnosing a batterys health? 
The Concord DC5000 only comes in 12 & 24 V models and these are 2V cells. 

Thanks as always

 

Jim Duncan

North Texas Renewable Energy

486 W.N. Woody Road

Azle Texas 76020

NABCEP Certified Solar PV

Installer No.31310-57

TECL 27398

nt...@1scom.net 

817.917.0527

www.ntrei.com <http://www.ntrei.com/> 

 




Sent from Finest Planet WebMail.

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[RE-wrenches] FX 2000 inverter, crackling sounds

[bob ellison]

Seems that I remember someone mentioning on the list about there once being
a recall on the old FX 2000 inverters for a board upgrade but I can't seem
to find it in the folder.

 

Can anyone enlighten me?

I have a customer who bought a used unit that I had sold to the original
customer.

I ran it and it seemed fine but 30 days into the install it is making a
frying type sound and the generator is behaving strangely.

 

Any ideas?

 

Thanks,

Bob Ellison

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Expected Life of SW Inverters

[Bob Ellison]

I Went to the Bahamas and checked a system with 5 SW inverters in 3  
locations on the island and they were all trashed by the salt environent
They were All trashed to the point that the cases were rusting. I was  
told they were under 5 years old and had not worked in a "few years"
This was an expensive system with surrette cased cells that were  
boiled dry by some unknown controller (the cover was missing and I had  
never seen it before)


My cure, was outback sealed inverters for any salt air enviroment and  
I would never use an open inverter within 200 miles of any coast

They bought a huge generator instead !


Sent from my iPod
Bob Ellison

On Nov 3, 2010, at 12:51 AM, William Miller   
wrote:



Friends:

Speaking of life expectancy, has anyone had experience with SW  
inverters in a coastal environment?


William Miller
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[RE-wrenches] 120 volt grid tie inverter

[Bob Ellison]

I have a customer who wants to grid tie a 120 volt dc system
Does anyone know of an inverter that can do this?

Thanks
Bob ellison


> 

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Re: [RE-wrenches] 120 volt grid tie inverter

[bob ellison]

Mick,

I am afraid that is what he wants to do, I am also getting the impression
that his power bill is just a few bucks so I don't see a need. He does.

 

Later,

Bob Ellison

 

From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Mick Abraham
Sent: Monday, November 15, 2010 8:44 PM
To: glenn.b...@glbcc.com; RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] 120 volt grid tie inverter

 

Agreed, Glenn~ and that SMA unit has a nice low input voltage requirement. 

 

Bob, might your client be wanting a "grid intertie capable" inverter which
can run on a 120 volt battery bank--the medium voltage battery system which
Chad Lampkin had championed? If so, it's game over for several reasons,
including the NEC.

 

Jolliness,


Mick Abraham, Proprietor
www.abrahamsolar.com

Voice: 970-731-4675



On Mon, Nov 15, 2010 at 6:29 PM, Glenn Burt  wrote:

I think there is still an SMA 700W inverter available that uses 120VAC.
-Glenn


-Original Message-
From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Bob Ellison
Sent: Monday, November 15, 2010 11:14 AM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: [RE-wrenches] 120 volt grid tie inverter

I have a customer who wants to grid tie a 120 volt dc system
Does anyone know of an inverter that can do this?

Thanks
Bob ellison


>

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Re: [RE-wrenches] 120 volt grid tie inverter

[bob ellison]

Peter,

The fellow is living with a 120 volt DC battery bank, using it to power his
place and a 20 HP motor on his sawmill. 

He wants to reduce the electric bill further than he already has.

 

So we are looking for an inverter that will take 120 volt DC nominal from
the panels / batteries and send it to the grid.

 

I am supposed to meet him tomorrow and hope to have more info afterwards.

 

Thanks,

Bob Ellison

 

From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Peter
Parrish
Sent: Monday, November 15, 2010 8:38 PM
To: glenn.b...@glbcc.com; 'RE-wrenches'
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] 120 volt grid tie inverter

 

Bob,

Do you mean they have a nominal 120 Vdc input? Or do you mean that they want
a 120 Vac (RMS) output? If the former, what output voltage do you want? If
the latter, what is their nominal dc input voltage (better yet the range of
DC input voltages over a range of typical temperatures and irradiance
values)?

- Peter


Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D., President
California Solar Engineering, Inc.
820 Cynthia Ave., Los Angeles, CA 90065
CA Lic. 854779, NABCEP Cert. 031806-26
peter.parr...@calsolareng.com 
Ph 323-258-8883, Mobile 323-839-6108, Fax 323-258-8885


-Original Message-
From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Glenn Burt
Sent: Monday, November 15, 2010 5:29 PM
To: 'RE-wrenches'
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] 120 volt grid tie inverter

I think there is still an SMA 700W inverter available that uses 120VAC.
-Glenn

-Original Message-
From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Bob Ellison
Sent: Monday, November 15, 2010 11:14 AM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: [RE-wrenches] 120 volt grid tie inverter

I have a customer who wants to grid tie a 120 volt dc system
Does anyone know of an inverter that can do this?

Thanks
Bob ellison


>

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Re: [RE-wrenches] 120 volt grid tie inverter

[bob ellison]

Darryl,

His present power system is 120 volt DC in his entire place, so he is
looking for an inverter that will accept that and 

grid tie. 

>From my understanding the only 120 volt AC he has is to run the saw mill and
he wants to reduce that with the solar that he has, seems that his battery
bank is floating much of the time.

 

Except that old habits die hard I could use a lesson in reducing consumption
from this fellow!

 

Thanks,

Bob

 

From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Darryl
Thayer
Sent: Tuesday, November 16, 2010 9:08 AM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] 120 volt grid tie inverter

 

Again the definition of 120 volt DC? is this for a 120 volt PV String?
 
Excel Tec makes a 120 V AC out from small PV array,  It is ment to operate
on a 15 amp circuit I think. They also make a 120 volt DC input but I am not
sure if that is Grid Tie 1741

--- On Mon, 11/15/10, Peter Parrish  wrote:

> From: Peter Parrish 
> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] 120 volt grid tie inverter
> To: glenn.b...@glbcc.com, "'RE-wrenches'"

> Date: Monday, November 15, 2010, 7:38 PM
> Bob,
>
> Do you mean they have a nominal 120 Vdc input? Or do you
> mean that they want
> a 120 Vac (RMS) output? If the former, what output voltage
> do you want? If
> the latter, what is their nominal dc input voltage (better
> yet the range of
> DC input voltages over a range of typical temperatures and
> irradiance
> values)?
>
> - Peter
>
>
>
>
>  
> Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D., President
> California Solar Engineering, Inc.
> 820 Cynthia Ave., Los Angeles, CA 90065
> CA Lic. 854779, NABCEP Cert. 031806-26
> peter.parr...@calsolareng.com 
>
> Ph 323-258-8883, Mobile 323-839-6108, Fax 323-258-8885
>
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
> [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org]
> On Behalf Of Glenn Burt
> Sent: Monday, November 15, 2010 5:29 PM
> To: 'RE-wrenches'
> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] 120 volt grid tie inverter
>
> I think there is still an SMA 700W inverter available that
> uses 120VAC.
> -Glenn
>
> -Original Message-
> From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
> [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org]
> On Behalf Of Bob Ellison
> Sent: Monday, November 15, 2010 11:14 AM
> To: RE-wrenches
> Subject: [RE-wrenches] 120 volt grid tie inverter
>
> I have a customer who wants to grid tie a 120 volt dc
> system
> Does anyone know of an inverter that can do this?
>
> Thanks
> Bob ellison
>
>
> >
>
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No virus found i

[RE-wrenches] Code switch heights

[bob ellison]

I am looking at installing 4 inverters in a system, 1 on an e panel and 2 SW
4048's and also a SW plus. So its an interesting mix, 3 are just to cut the
generator run time for the diesel generator.

 

I am trying to find the allowable range for switch heights for all the gear.

Seems the upper limit is about 6' but I am unsure on the lower limit.

 

Any ideas?

 

Thanks,

Bob Ellison

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Wire Management and Panel Claw

[bob ellison]

Sam,

Not familiar with panel claw raking but underground in conduit is the only
thing that makes sense to me. Anytime's that I have seen wires rack to rack
in any direction have always looked like a nightmare, both lifespan wise as
well as a liability problem at some point in the future.

 

18 years ago I did things differently than I do it now but when you consider
these have to last 30 + years I am more comfortable with the wires protected
by conduit.

 

 

Later,

Bob Ellison

 

 

From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Sam Mason
Sent: Wednesday, December 08, 2010 4:38 PM
To: re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
Subject: [RE-wrenches] Wire Management and Panel Claw

 

Can you share your experience with wire management and using Panel Claw
racking?  There are East West HR bundles, North South HR bundles and
inter-row series connections.  Do you favor putting everything conduit
external to the array or do you have a favorite way to bundle USE-2 within
the array. Do tell

thanks
 
Sam Mason

Sustainable Energy Developments Inc.
317 Route 104
Ontario, NY 14519-8958

O 585-265-2384 x152 F 585-265-1148
E  <mailto:scott.abb...@sed-net.com> sam.ma...@sed-net.com
W  <http://sed-net.com/> sed-net.com

 

Please consider the environment before printing this email.

 

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Re: [RE-wrenches] 24v Battery Charger 80 Amps?

[bob ellison]

Why not just use a Magnum MS inverter as a 2nd charger? That way in an
emergency there is a 2nd inverter to cover a failure and it will balance the
loads with or without the PSX 240 most of the time.

I expect the transformer and 2 little chargers cost close to the same as the
inverter and not look as good on the wall either.

Want to speed up battery charging add more inverter / chargers. You could
probably add 2- 4024 Magnums as well as the SW to that large a battery bank
and be fine, but you would want to balance that one.. 

 

Later,

Bob Ellison

 

 

From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Dana
Sent: Thursday, December 09, 2010 11:24 AM
To: 'RE-wrenches'
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] 24v Battery Charger 80 Amps?

 

You could add a PSX 240 transformer to balance the generator output and then
add the IOTAs. The PSX240 I think has 6KW output.

 

 

Dana Orzel

Great Solar Works, Inc

E - d...@solarwork.com

V - 970.626.5253

F - 970.626.4140

C - 970.209.4076

web - www.solarwork.com

 

"Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988"

Do not ever belive anything, but seriously trust through action.

 

From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Dave Palumbo
Sent: Thursday, December 09, 2010 9:13 AM
To: 'RE-wrenches'
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] 24v Battery Charger 80 Amps?

 

Wrenchsters,

 

Any recommendations on a generator fed Battery Charger for a large 24v
battery bank (1,800AH). It's an existing off grid system with one Trace
SW4024 (has a 120A battery charger). They are getting a larger generator
(14kW) to run shop tools and speed up battery charging. I want to balance
off the second leg of this new generators output with a battery charger that
puts out anywhere from 80 to 100 Amps into the 24v battery bank. 

 

I could use two Iota 24 volt 40 Amp chargers for the 80 Amp max total. 

 

Other options?

 

Dave Palumbo

Independent Power LLC 

www.independentpowerllc.com 

NABCEP Certified PV Installer

Vermont Solar Partner

802.888.7194 

 

 

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Re: [RE-wrenches] To insulate a battery bank

[bob ellison]

With the amount of lead in a battery bank it changes temperature very
slowly. Both gaining and losing heat is a very slow process.

I have never insulated battery banks, if in a cold area like here we size
them larger for the slower reaction time in the winter anyway. Part of the
reason being that I would bet that the acid would raise hell with the
insulation! 

We regularly see battery banks that are 40 degrees or so it presents no
problem.

If the exhaust fan is running in a 70 degree building all it does is draw
the warm air over the top of the battery and not really warm them much
anyway, in an unheated building it will probably not make much difference.

The only way that I would put insulation in an unheated battery box is on
the outside of the plywood, away from the acid and gasses. I would also make
it removable in the summer.

 

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Component Choices for MY RV - Apollo Solar?

[bob ellison]

There are a couple things on the Magnum inverters that you will learn about
after using one that really need to be corrected. 
DO NOT backfeed them, they are not protected like most other inverters. Back
feed them and BAD THINGS WILL HAPPEN! Read that as expensive.

Also the split phase 120/240 inverters are slow to recover from a voltage
drop. I have never noticed this on the 120 volt units but I don't have any
large loads anymore so I would not see it like someone with a well pump or
other large surge loads. I have had several calls about this from customers
and it is real. If this is a problem or not seems to depend on the customers
attitude, but it can be annoying.

At least they are still made here, and the service is good!

Bob Ellison




-Original Message-
From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Brian Faley
Sent: Thursday, July 01, 2010 2:20 PM
To: re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
Subject: [RE-wrenches] Component Choices for MY RV - Apollo Solar?



Hi Jeff,

Just a couple comments to answer your question about Magnum inverters.
See below.
> 
> Message: 6
> Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2010 06:09:35 -0700
> From: Jeff Clearwater 
> To: RE-wrenches 
> Subject: [RE-wrenches] Component Choices for MY RV - Apollo Solar?
> Message-ID: 
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" ; format="flowed"
> 
> Dear Colleagues,
> 
> Well this one's for me!  Nice to do solar for
> oneself after installing for others my whole life!
> 
> I'm putting together an small RV system in my
> Sprinter Van that will also act as a small mobile
> power platform.  SUGGESTIONS?
> 
> I'm considering the following:   What would be better???
> 
> Batteries:  6 or 8 Optima Blue Tops (12 Volt
> System - possibly 24V) (space is limited - it's a
> 144" Sprinter Van)  - Other sealed alternatives
> you think are better?
> 
> Modules:  2 Sanyo HIP-195BA19s (have already)  &
> 1 undetermined 90-120 watt module (all that will
> fit!)  (Anyone have an extra BP 790 or an
> AE-90HE, AE-120HE??? or other 24" x 48" ish
> module?)
> 
> Charge Control:  OB FlexMax 60  or should I wait
> for the Midnight Classic?  (A Sunsaver MPPT will
> be used for the 100 watt module).  (I'll also be
> dumping extra power to hot water).  Or Apollo if
> I use the Apollo inverter below.
> 
> Inverter:  I'd like to eventually have 120/240 so
> I could build from the RV.  So question is:
> 
> A) One Outback 2012 now and then add another for 240 VAC later OR
> B) Apollo TSE2212  OR
> C) Magnum MS 4024 (in which case I'd have to go
> with a 24V pack and a 24>12 DC>DC for 12V loads)

The Magnum MS4024 is a 120V inverter for AE and mobile applications. The
MS4024AE is a 120/240 split phase inverter for AE applications. 
> 
> Monitoring:  OB Mate (Flexnet?) or (Apollo ASNET if I go Apollo).
> 
> QUESTIONS?
> 
> 1)   Opinions of the Blue Top vs ???
> 
> 2)  Best RV inverter - Outback?  Apollo?  Magnum?
> Experience?  Vibration?  Only the Outback offers
> neutral switching in the transfer switch. (Does
> the Magnum?).

Magnum MS4024 (120V single phase output) has neutral/gnd switching in
the transfer switch of the inverter. It is ETL listed to UL458 (mobile
inverters) AND UL1741.
The MS4024AE is a 120/240 split phase inverter intended for AE use
(non-ground switched) It is ETL listed to UL1741.

  Weight is an issue as well as
> space.

MS4024 4kW inverter 55lbs
> 
> 3)  Charge Control - Is the Classic Shipping?
> 
> Thanks for your time!
> 
> Best,
> 
> Jeff C.
> 
> --
> ~~~
> Jeff Clearwater
> Village Power Design
> 
> Solar Design Consultation for the Commercial Sector
> http://www.villagepower.com
> goso...@villagepower.com
> 
> NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer ?
> http://www.nabcep.org/
> 
> Voice: 831-427-2799
> Fax: 413-825-0703
> 245 Dufour St
> Santa Cruz, CA 95060
> ~

Regards,
Brian Faley
Chief Engineer
Magnum Energy, Inc
2211 West Casino Rd, Everett, WA 98204
425-353-8833 voice
bfa...@magnumenergy.com
www.magnumenergy.com


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Re: [RE-wrenches] Component Choices for MY RV - Apollo Solar?

[Bob Ellison]

Know how the lights blink when an inverter gets hit with a heavy load ? 
It seems to take them longer to recover than outback or even my 18 y/o heart 
interface inverters!
I would not think either problem would be hard to cure, everyone else has done 
it !

Dom't get me wrong, they are good inverters they just have these 2 warts that 
really should be improved

Merry Christmas,


Bob ellison



Sent from my iPod
Bob Ellison

On Dec 24, 2010, at 11:00 AM, jay peltz  wrote:

> Hi Bob,
> 
> Thanks for the input.
> 
> When you say "slow to recover from a voltage drop" can you be more specific?
> 
> jay
> 
> peltz power
> 
> 
> On Dec 23, 2010, at 4:58 PM, bob ellison wrote:
> 
>> There are a couple things on the Magnum inverters that you will learn about
>> after using one that really need to be corrected. 
>> DO NOT backfeed them, they are not protected like most other inverters. Back
>> feed them and BAD THINGS WILL HAPPEN! Read that as expensive.
>> 
>> Also the split phase 120/240 inverters are slow to recover from a voltage
>> drop. I have never noticed this on the 120 volt units but I don't have any
>> large loads anymore so I would not see it like someone with a well pump or
>> other large surge loads. I have had several calls about this from customers
>> and it is real. If this is a problem or not seems to depend on the customers
>> attitude, but it can be annoying.
>> 
>> At least they are still made here, and the service is good!
>> 
>> Bob Ellison
>> 
>> 
>> 
> 
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Component Choices for MY RV - Apollo Solar?

[bob ellison]

Darryl,
The backfeed that I was speaking of is feeding AC power into the AC out end
of the inverter.
It lets the smoke out of the thing and should be protected from what is user
stupidity like all the other major inverters out there.

Later,
Bob

-Original Message-
From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Darryl
Thayer
Sent: Saturday, December 25, 2010 7:53 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Component Choices for MY RV - Apollo Solar?

I have answered an eariler email, but in regards to backfeed, I have back
feed up to 2kW of grid tied inverter into my Magnum 4024 AE and it held grid
specification for the DGI inverter.  Above 2kW into the Magnum the Grid tied
inverter kicks out on frequency specification.  Other inverters do the same
for me, cause DGI kick out also at about the same level ie  about 50% of
capacity.  Sorry I do not have many examples of this. but I do not have any
contra indictating examples. 

--- On Thu, 12/23/10, bob ellison  wrote:

> From: bob ellison 
> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Component Choices for MY RV - Apollo Solar?
> To: "'RE-wrenches'" 
> Date: Thursday, December 23, 2010, 6:58 PM
> There are a couple things on the
> Magnum inverters that you will learn about
> after using one that really need to be corrected. 
> DO NOT backfeed them, they are not protected like most
> other inverters. Back
> feed them and BAD THINGS WILL HAPPEN! Read that as
> expensive.
> 
> Also the split phase 120/240 inverters are slow to recover
> from a voltage
> drop. I have never noticed this on the 120 volt units but I
> don't have any
> large loads anymore so I would not see it like someone with
> a well pump or
> other large surge loads. I have had several calls about
> this from customers
> and it is real. If this is a problem or not seems to depend
> on the customers
> attitude, but it can be annoying.
> 
> At least they are still made here, and the service is
> good!
> 
> Bob Ellison
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
> [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org]
> On Behalf Of Brian Faley
> Sent: Thursday, July 01, 2010 2:20 PM
> To: re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
> Subject: [RE-wrenches] Component Choices for MY RV - Apollo
> Solar?
> 
> 
> 
> Hi Jeff,
> 
> Just a couple comments to answer your question about Magnum
> inverters.
> See below.
> > 
> > Message: 6
> > Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2010 06:09:35 -0700
> > From: Jeff Clearwater 
> > To: RE-wrenches 
> > Subject: [RE-wrenches] Component Choices for MY RV -
> Apollo Solar?
> > Message-ID:
> 
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" ;
> format="flowed"
> > 
> > Dear Colleagues,
> > 
> > Well this one's for me!  Nice to do solar for
> > oneself after installing for others my whole life!
> > 
> > I'm putting together an small RV system in my
> > Sprinter Van that will also act as a small mobile
> > power platform.  SUGGESTIONS?
> > 
> > I'm considering the following:   What
> would be better???
> > 
> > Batteries:  6 or 8 Optima Blue Tops (12 Volt
> > System - possibly 24V) (space is limited - it's a
> > 144" Sprinter Van)  - Other sealed alternatives
> > you think are better?
> > 
> > Modules:  2 Sanyo HIP-195BA19s (have
> already)  &
> > 1 undetermined 90-120 watt module (all that will
> > fit!)  (Anyone have an extra BP 790 or an
> > AE-90HE, AE-120HE??? or other 24" x 48" ish
> > module?)
> > 
> > Charge Control:  OB FlexMax 60  or should I
> wait
> > for the Midnight Classic?  (A Sunsaver MPPT will
> > be used for the 100 watt module).  (I'll also be
> > dumping extra power to hot water).  Or Apollo if
> > I use the Apollo inverter below.
> > 
> > Inverter:  I'd like to eventually have 120/240
> so
> > I could build from the RV.  So question is:
> > 
> > A) One Outback 2012 now and then add another for 240
> VAC later OR
> > B) Apollo TSE2212  OR
> > C) Magnum MS 4024 (in which case I'd have to go
> > with a 24V pack and a 24>12 DC>DC for 12V
> loads)
> 
> The Magnum MS4024 is a 120V inverter for AE and mobile
> applications. The
> MS4024AE is a 120/240 split phase inverter for AE
> applications. 
> > 
> > Monitoring:  OB Mate (Flexnet?) or (Apollo ASNET
> if I go Apollo).
> > 
> > QUESTIONS?
> > 
> > 1)   Opinions of the Blue Top vs ???
> > 
> > 2)  Best RV inverter - Outback? 
&

Re: [RE-wrenches] 10A Charge / load controller

[bob ellison]

>From memory it seems that the max voltage listed in the manual for the Sun 
>Saver MPPT is 35 volts but I don’t have it handy.

 

Bob Ellison

 

From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org 
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Starlight 
Solar, Larry Crutcher
Sent: Friday, January 21, 2011 8:38 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] 10A Charge / load controller

 

I have had failures with the Sunsaver MPPT. I have used them with a single 
Sanyo module in small battery systems. Perhaps they just can't handle the 50.9 
Voc.

 

Larry

Starlight Solar Power Systems

- Original Message - 

From: Maverick Brown [Maverick Solar] <mailto:maver...@mavericksolar.com>  

To: RE-wrenches <mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org>  

Sent: Thursday, January 20, 2011 5:38 PM

Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] 10A Charge / load controller

 

Try SunSaver MPPT. 

15 amps, MPPT and load control (or light) control

 

Use the MSC to connect the controller to your PC and adjust many settings and 
get log data. 

 

We use a lot of them and have had very few issues. 


Thank you, 

 

Maverick

 

 

Maverick Brown

BSEET, NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer ®

President & CEO

Maverick Solar Enterprises, Inc.

Office: 512-919-4493

Cell:512-460-9825

 

Sent from an iPhone. 


On Jan 20, 2011, at 5:37 PM, "Jason Szumlanski"  wrote:

I’m looking for a ~10A charge controller for a 12V battery with adjustable LVD 
that goes up to at least 12V. Priorities in order are:

1.   Small in size

2.   Good

3.   Cheap

The best I can come up with now is the Xantrex C12. Looking for alternatives. 
Recommendations?

Jason Szumlanski

Fafco Solar

 
  

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Generator for off grid

[bob ellison]

For something small it's hard to beat the Honda inverter generators, for
larger I have customers who have the 16 KW Perkins Diesel generators from
Hardy diesel and are very happy with them. These engines are built in the
Caterpillar plant in the US (Georgia?) We are in a very cold area, last
night was -32 F. They use a propane wall heater to keep the temp in the 40's
to 50's or better sometimes and starting is not a problem. It's just one of
the costs of a generator in a cold area.

 

More of my .02 worth!

 

Later,

Bob Ellison

 

From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Randy Brooks
Sent: Monday, January 24, 2011 3:16 PM
To: Wrenches RE
Subject: [RE-wrenches] Generator for off grid

 

Fellow Wrenches,

 

What generator manufacturer are you currently recommending for off grid use?
A Kohler 18RES (LP, 3,600 rpm, air cooled) a customer installed last year
has already failed after 370 hours of use during 6 months of construction
and winter occupancy.  It consumed enough oil to cause the low oil shutoff
to activate, and the generator controller board is fried.  The owner is
still negotiating with Kohler, but Kohler has said they will not support any
of their generators used off grid.

 

The owner is looking at a Cummins Onan 20 kW GGMA (LP, 1,800 rpm, liquid
cooled).

 

Any suggestions would be appreciated.

 

Thanks,

 

Randy Brooks

Brooks Solar, Inc.

Solar Power for People

140 Columbia View

Chelan, WA  98816

509-682-9646

ra...@brookssolar.com

www.BrooksSolar.com

 

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Trojan L-1r studs

[bob ellison]

If they are too tight this can happen also. I have asked my battery
distributor about torques in the past with no definite answers.

Bob Ellison

-Original Message-
From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Nathan Jones
Sent: Wednesday, February 09, 2011 2:12 PM
To: re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Trojan L-1r studs

William,
If the connections were not tight enough heat could have built up to melt
the bolt mount. It is not all that uncommon and confirms the importance of
properly torqueing all connections.
Nathan Jones
Power Source Solar

On Wed Feb 9th, 2011 11:23 AM CST William Miller wrote:

>Friends:
>
>We were repairing an install yesterday that contained a group of Trojan
L-16 batteries.  To our surprise, two of the threaded studs pulled out of
the battery cases.  The studs are really just standard machine bolts with
the heads pressed into a socket.  I have never seen this before.  Has anyone
else?
>
>William Miller
>
>
>Please note new e-mail address and domain:
>
>William Miller
>Miller Solar
>Voice :805-438-5600
>email: will...@millersolar.com
>http://millersolar.com
>License No. C-10-773985



 


8:00? 8:25? 8:40? Find a flick in no time 
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[RE-wrenches] Standby power draw

[bob ellison]

Can anyone tell me the standby power draw on a
 
Xantrex SW 4048 plus? 

I am betting it's 25 to 50 watts just sitting there doing nothing, all this 
inverter does is idle to start the generator when needed, no AC output is used.

I seem to be unable to download the manual from any of the web sites.

Thanks,
Bob Ellison

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Battery watering

[bob ellison]

In my opinion the auto watering systems are a recipe for disaster. The only
way I would use or recommend one is if it was gravity flow and the batteries
(as an example used 2 gallons a week). I would then insert 2 gallons and
watch as it installed it. Don't turn your back on them.

 

A few years ago one of my commercial customers ruined a 6 month old battery
(that cost $8000.00 at the time) from over watering. 

The process went like this, staff member fills it till it shuts off. The
battery goes on charge and the electrolyte overflows the battery. Refill
again, repeat process several times. The when it will no longer hold a
charge you call the battery guy and he explains the etching on the concrete
floor was from the battery acid eating at the floor after it was warmed and
overflowed the battery.

 

It also ate the steel tray that held the batteries into the machine as well.
But they had been doing this for 6 months!

 

I now go to Home depot and spend $10.00 on a garden sprayer with a plastic
wand, for battery filling. Fast, easy and controllable. Not idiot proof but
it's the best I have found yet.

 

Don't leave the sprayer in the truck on a sub zero night or you get to add
the custom epoxy to the plastic handle to stop the leaks...

 

Just my .02 worth.

 

Bob Ellison

 

 

From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Joel
Davidson
Sent: Saturday, April 02, 2011 11:59 AM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Battery watering

 

Dana,

 

One of my battery suppliers gave me the same or similar float. He said
something like, "Here's a sample from one of the watering systems that we
sell. It's pretty good, but sometimes the float sticks open and sometimes it
sticks closed so I wouldn't turn on the water supply unless I was there to
monitor it." He said that his forklift customers schedule 30 minutes for
watering - turns the water on before going to lunch and checks to see if the
cells are full when he comes back from lunch.

 

Joel Davidson

- Original Message - 

From: Dana <mailto:d...@solarwork.com>  

To: 'RE-wrenches' <mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org>  

Sent: Friday, April 01, 2011 2:37 PM

Subject: [RE-wrenches] Battery watering

 

I found Battery Watering Systems ; http://www.batterywatering.com/

Kits and lots of options on parts for battery service.

I am getting a new pressure sprayer and ordered a "gun" that stops when the
battery fluid is at a preset level $80, includes a flow meter visual, 20PSI
pressure reducer, sprayer handle and auto stop tip.

No more sore back from leaning over the battery bank, Yes!

 

Dana Orzel

Great Solar Works, Inc

E - d...@solarwork.com

V - 970.626.5253

F - 970.626.4140

C - 970.209.4076

web - www.solarwork.com

 

"Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988"

Do not ever believe anything, but seriously trust through action.

 


  _  


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Re: [RE-wrenches] Slow clocks

[bob ellison]

The days of just using a battery powered clock in an off grid home are over.


But I only have a few customers who actually have the capability of using
"sleep mode" in the inverter any more.

 

Want to watch an electric clock misbehave? Plug it into a modified square
wave inverter. You can almost use it as a fan!

 

Good night,

Bob Ellison

 

From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of William
Miller
Sent: Monday, April 04, 2011 11:06 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Slow clocks

 

Todd:

I guess your off-grid clients don't have commitments, but my clients
sometimes have places to go and deadlines to meet.

Your point?

William Miller



At 07:46 PM 4/4/2011, toddc...@finestplanet.com wrote:



I wasn't going to say anything, but electric clocks off-grid? really???

Todd

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Batteries in parrallel Failure

[bob ellison]

I have been using buss bars for 12 years or so and about 8 years ago started
to add a class “T” fuse to the connection at each buss bar in most systems.

I have seen thermal runaway hit the industrial batteries I service. 

It would be best to avoid it in a battery box if at all possible.

 

Do a search for buss bars or battery interconnector straps and you can
locate them. I am lucky that I have a supplier that I visit and he had some
lying around that he gave me. Drill them to fit the fuses and attach the
cables to the fuses.

If you are using a battery with a terminal you can bolt to, you can put the
fuse there also.

I attach the buss bars to the battery boxes with electric fence insulators
as much as a standoff as anything else. 

I also use a board between them so there is no way to get contact between
the 2 bars when working in the box. Trust me, they will spark rather well if
you keep putting off wrapping the ends of the wrenches…..  Also watch the
ends of the cables as you’re whipping them around in there too, best to wrap
them with tape and pull it off when you’re ready to connect them. As we all
know there are lots of exposed terminals in a battery bank and only ½ of
them are friendly.

 

Using the buss bars has stopped the end cell failures that I used to see
from all the batteries going to the major pos and neg terminals.

 

I am on a useless dial up at the moment but will try a search for the buss
bars when I get back to the real world.

 

 

Later,

Bob

 

 

 

 

From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Brian
Teitelbaum
Sent: Wednesday, April 20, 2011 2:50 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Batteries in parrallel Failure

 

Does anyone know of a manufacturer or supplier of fused battery buss bars or
battery string combiners (preferably using Class-T fuses) that are UL Listed
for use in residential or commercial applications?

 

Brian Teitelbaum

AEE Solar

 

From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Tom Elliot
Sent: Wednesday, April 20, 2011 11:36 AM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Batteries in parrallel Failure

 

What?  No royalties?  Damn...(but thanks for the props)  Sorry I
misunderstood what you meant.

 

My installs of buss bars back in the day had cable pairs of the same length
but different pairs could be of different lengths with the consideration
being bank construction.  I’d use slightly oversized cables to minimize
resistance differences.  Since the cables from each string only carried
current from that string it also made for easier installation.  In these
days of grid-tie I’m seeing less and less discussion of batteries, good to
see another one happening even if it was prompted by a failure, though I
guess that’s how we learn.

 

Tom

 

From: R Ray Walters   

Sent: Wednesday, April 20, 2011 8:16 AM

To: RE-wrenches   

Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Batteries in parrallel Failure

 

Tom; 

 

That's exactly what Daryl and I were suggesting: all strings paralleled to a
central combiner box with breakers on each series string.

The only thing I left out was that each cable set should be the same length
( which Daryl was already suggesting).

You need to reread what we were talking about.  We got this idea from you
many years ago, so the record is not broken;

its been pirated, reposted for Free download on all sorts of unsavory sites,
and you aren't getting a royalty check

Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery, and this list listens to and
appreciates you.

 

Thanks,

 

R. Walters

r...@solarray.com

Solar Engineer

 

 

 

 

On Apr 19, 2011, at 10:16 PM, Tom Elliot wrote:

 

The broken record will now repeat himself yet again.  Bussbars are the way
to go, not across battery terminals but individual strings connected to a
central positive and negative buss from which the inverter connection then
runs.  This allows fusing of each individual connection and also allows for
smaller positive cables and no need to have identical length parallel cables
since each string is independently connected.  It’s what telecom
installations use.  The Telecom guys who showed me how to do it literally
laughed when told about paralleling across battery terminals.  They then
told me they considered it profoundly stupid and dangerous and since I had
just avoided a meltdown myself by catching a bad cell before complete
failure I got the message pretty quick.

 

Really guys, this is amazingly simple and yes, it may mean a bit more
cabling and another component but from a safety standpoint those
considerations are pretty minor and cheap insurance against disaster.

 

Tom

 

 

 

From: R Ray Walters   

Sent: Tuesday, April 19, 2011 6:01 PM

To: RE-wrenches   

Subject: Re: [RE-wr

Re: [RE-wrenches] Air conditioning for batteies in high temperature climate

[bob ellison]

I believe Roy has a customer with a huge battery bank that air conditioned
the battery room. He ran the numbers and the air conditioning actually made
sense.

 

Bob Ellison

 

From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of R Ray
Walters
Sent: Thursday, April 21, 2011 4:50 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Air conditioning for batteies in high temperature
climate

 

Are you using temperature compensation? It lowers the voltage when its hot.

Also, have you considered setting the batteries in a below ground vault?
I've had good luck with in floor battery boxes.

Finally, AGMs and L16s just don't last very long anyway. AGMs maybe 3 years,
and L16s I've seen die in under 5 years and we get to 15 below zero.

My suggestion: temp comp, ground vault, HUP or equivalent cycle life.

 

R. Walters

r...@solarray.com

Solar Engineer

 

 





 

On Apr 21, 2011, at 1:22 PM, Starlight Solar, Larry Crutcher wrote:





Hello Battery Wrenches,

 

Over the years I have had several battery banks in Baja and Sonora Mexico
fail in just 36 to 48 months. These have been L16 or 8D AGM or flooded
banks, 24 and 48 volt systems. The charging systems are working properly and
programmed to manufacturer recommended set points and discharges are rarely
over 30% DoD.  Some batteries are only used on weekends, some are discharged
daily.  I believe what is affecting the short life is the high temperature
they live in for 5 months each year. Temps. can hit 115 F in vented battery
rooms. I have been thinking about a small air conditioner and insulated
battery box to keep the battery at no more than 80 F. There are some
portable units that draw about 600 watts and the run time would be very
little with a highly insulated enclosure. There is ample power to do this on
the home I am changing batteries in now. Has anyone done this and gained
longer battery life?

 

Best Regards,

Larry Crutcher
Starlight Solar Power Systems <http://www.starlightsolar.com/> 

powered by STARLIGHTT

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Old Nicads

[bob ellison]

Are they Ni-cad or could they be Ni-Fe (nickel iron) 

My understanding is that the Edison cells are nickel iron, but I could be
wrong.

 

Ni-cad's are very toxic, and a disposal problem.

ni-fe is based on a alkaline (lye) electrolyte and easy to render harmless.

 

Bob Ellison

 

From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Drake
Sent: Sunday, May 01, 2011 10:37 AM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: [RE-wrenches] Old Nicads

 

Hello Wrenches,

A friend was given some old Nicads (ED 160s).  These are single cell
batteries that are roughly 16" tall, but much smaller than an L-16 in the
other dimensions.  After being used for an unknown amount of time, they were
stored in a barn for 10 years with no maintenance.  

If these were lead acid batteries, they would clearly be scrap.  Is there
any chance that these could be any good?  If so, what steps should be taken
to get them out of mothballs?  

Thanks,

Drake 





Drake Chamberlin 
ATHENS ELECTRIC
OH License 44810
CO license 3773
NABCEP Certified PV

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[RE-wrenches] Dangerous installs/installers..

[bob ellison]

I have a fellow in this area that does bad installs and he is on the NYSERDA 
list.

I get called a couple times a year to upgrade / repair his installs. 

It is not uncommon to find the incoming solar run into the building and inside 
the walls using rubber cord, (SO cord) no disconnect, just run it from the 
panels into the outside wall and through the studs around the building. Then 
coming out and going into the controller. In one case the batteries were on a 
rack with no venting in the same room with his wood furnace. The owner 
explained that it was “safe” because the walls were ¾ fire rated dry wall! 

Yep, that helps. 

 

Just thought I would add this to the list, because they are out there.

Bob Ellison

 

From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org 
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Allan Sindelar
Sent: Saturday, May 07, 2011 7:26 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] installs/installers..

 

Todd,
Don't forget that I warned you and Bob-O, and Bob-O sternly cautioned him not 
to touch a system without a license that he couldn't get.
Allan

On 5/7/2011 3:00 PM, toddc...@finestplanet.com wrote:

Ahem, yes... right here in Mount Shasta. Thanks guys.

Todd

On Saturday, May 7, 2011 12:34pm, "R Ray Walters"  <mailto:r...@solarray.com> 
 said:

As far as your competitor doing bad work, we had the same problem for years 
with a guy who was finally run out of Taos by the inspector and a growing list 
of angry customers. He's now in California doing Wholesale Solar.

 

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Working on metal roofs.

[bob ellison]

Look into a set of the roofer's boots with the replaceable pads on the
bottom. I think they have been covered here in the past, but I don't
remember the brand names.

There are roofers in the area that swear by them, they stick like glue.

Anything that increases grip will help to keep you on the roof and alive
long enough to finish the job.

 

Bob Ellison

 

From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Darryl
Thayer
Sent: Sunday, May 08, 2011 1:42 AM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Working on metal roofs.

 

working on metal roofs is difficult because you have no friction, working on
a 12/12 is a close to impossible as it can get.  I like to use scaffold and
of course safety rail such that you are safe at the scaffold level.
Scaffold needs to be tied off or braced to prevent toppling when ou place a
ladder on to it.  Even if you use a chicken ladder have a work platform
underneath.  the work using harness if so difficult you use all your
strength just staying there.  There are scaffold systems that are designed
for latteral force check with your supplier.  I find that working off a JLG
is difficult also.  

 

BTW there are at least three types of standing seam, most types can be
handled using Snap-NRack hardware, but get the standing seam profile first.


 

Remember you are to use every seam, to place clamps and use rails to tie the
clamps to the modules.  I find that this is easier than the rail-less
system.  

 

A ladder is not to be streched at 45 degrees.  ground to roof.  When tie off
is used for fall protection remember swing fall and rescure plan.  

 

Darryl

 

  _  

From: Jesse Dahl 
To: "RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org" 
Sent: Sat, May 7, 2011 7:21:43 PM
Subject: [RE-wrenches] Working on metal roofs.

Wrenches,

I will be installing multiple arrays on metal roofs at a local community
college and am wondering about tying off.  Most of the work will be done off
of scaffold and JLGs, but there will be times I will have to access upper
portions of the roof.  I am looking at two arrays that will be installed on
standing seam roofs both with a 12/12 pitch.  

How have people been working safely on roofs like this?



As always, I really appreciate all the help.



Jesse

Sent from my iPad!!!
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Battery interconnect cable length

[bob ellison]

Benn,

It's just one of the necessary evils we have to put up with.

Size it at least as large as the main leads, (2/0 or 4/0?) 

Sometimes we have to go around supports and vent fans and such in the boxes.

I like getting the cells and welding the straps onto them or bolting them
directly together, when possible. 

 

I like this, mind if I "liberate" it?

"Sent from a 'smart' phone, with tiny keys. Please excuse shortcuts and
typos." 

 

Thanks,

Bob Ellison

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

-Original Message-
From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Benn At
DayStarSolar
Sent: Monday, June 06, 2011 3:38 PM
To: re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
Subject: [RE-wrenches] Battery interconnect cable length

 

Since batteries seem to be a hot topic lately, I've got a question...

...in a single 48V string, (24 x 2V) if each interconnect cable  is
14"-4/0awg and one cable in the middle of the string must be longer (btwn
20"-24" total length)...

How detrimental will that be to the overall efficiency?

 

Should it be OK or should the awg size for the longer cable be larger?

What other factors should I consider?

 

Thanks,

benn

Sent from a 'smart' phone, with tiny keys. Please excuse shortcuts and
typos. 

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Battery interconnect cable length

[bob ellison]

Benn,

What I am talking about is welding the lead cell interconnects between
battery cells. Not welding cables to the lead posts, that would be a recipe
for disaster.

 

As far as the galling threaded post, if you try to cut it off it might
wiggle enough to break it internally, nothing good down that road. If you
cut it off is there enough room to get a nut and lock washer on the
remaining stud?

Overall the easy cure is probably replacement, anything else is iffy. But if
it works it saves you the cost of a battery. 

 

Bob Ellison

 

 

 

From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of benn kilburn
Sent: Tuesday, June 07, 2011 12:57 AM
To: Wrenches
Subject: [RE-wrenches] Battery interconnect cable length

 

Thanks for the feedback guys.

 

Yeah, i suppose that in a single string, cable length is not as important as
it would be for the paralleling cables.  

 

Ray, good point that if there are multiple parallel strings, then the series
jumpers in one string should be equal length to the series jumpers in each
string.  I see the logic in that.

 

Daryle, 'right-angle lugs', i've seen those.  Good suggestion for difficult
connections, thanks.  I'll have to keep a few of those handy for future
jobs.

 

Bob, are you saying that you weld the interconnect cables to the battery
posts? and/or use 'plates' to bolt the posts together?  I've seen plates
used, but welding the lugs to the posts ?  ... see next thread
'Battery Post Galling'

 

benn


DayStar Renewable Energy Inc. 

b...@daystarsolar.ca

780-906-7807 

HAVE A SUNNY DAY 

 

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Re: [RE-wrenches] National grid hertz adjustment

[bob ellison]

This will make it interesting to everybody with a grid tie inverter, can we
open up the specs to let them work with the "new test variation"? The other
option is that the inverters will spend a lot more time off line.

 

Bob Ellison

 

From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Roy Butler
Sent: Sunday, June 26, 2011 1:45 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] National grid hertz adjustment

 

I saw this as well, came over the AP news wire on Friday, June 24th.
I've been trying to figure out what they hope to gain by allowing more
frequency variation.puzzling at best!



Roy Butler
NABCEP Certified Solar PV InstallerR
NYSERDA eligible PV & wind installer
Four Winds Renewable Energy, LLC
8902 Route 46
Arkport, NY 14807
607-324-9747
 
www.four-winds-energy.com
 
Although no trees were killed in the sending of this message, 
a large number of electrons were terribly inconvenienced.
 



On 6/26/2011 1:31 PM, North Texas Renewable Energy Inc wrote: 

This article in the local paper sounds a little like potential trouble for
grid connected inverters. I looked around on the NERC www site without
finding the report mentioned. Any other wrenches seen anything about this
experiment?

Jim Duncan

By Seth Borenstein The Associated Press

WASHINGTON -- A yearlong experiment with the nation's electric grid could
mess up traffic lights, security systems and some computers -- and make
plug-in clocks and appliances like programmable coffee makers run up to 20
minutes fast.

"A lot of people are going to have things break, and they're not going to
know why," said Demetrios Matsakis, head of the time service department at
the U.S. Naval Observatory, one of two official timekeeping agencies in the
federal government.

Since 1930, electric clocks have kept time based on the rate of the
electrical current that powers them. If the current slips off its usual
rate, clocks run a little fast or slow.

Power companies now take steps to correct it, keeping the frequency of the
current as precise as possible.

The North American Electric Reliability Corp., which oversees the U.S. power
grid, is proposing an experiment that would allow more frequency variation
without corrections, according to a June 14 company presentation obtained by
The Associated Press.

The test is tentatively set to start in mid-July.

Tweaking the power grid's frequency is expensive and takes a lot of effort,
said Joe McClelland, head of electric reliability for the Federal Energy
Regulatory Commission.

"Is anyone using the grid to keep track of time?" McClelland said. "Let's
see if anyone complains if we eliminate it."

No one is quite sure what will be affected. This won't change the clocks in
cellphones, GPS or even on computers.

But wall clocks and those on ovens and coffee makers -- anything that
flashes "12:00" when it loses power -- may be a bit off every second, and
that error can grow with time.

VCRs or DVRs that get their time from cable systems or the Internet probably
won't be affected, but those with clocks tied to the electric current will
be off a bit, Matsakis said.

According to the June presentation, East Coast clocks may run up to 20
minutes fast over a year, but West Coast clocks are only likely to be off by
eight minutes. In Texas, it's only an expected speedup of two minutes. 


Read more:
<http://www.star-telegram.com/2011/06/24/3178359/test-of-electric-grid-could
-be.html#ixzz1QOzHwezw>
http://www.star-telegram.com/2011/06/24/3178359/test-of-electric-grid-could-
be.html#ixzz1QOzHwezw

 

 
 
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[RE-wrenches] New pole mount with wire management built in.

[bob ellison]

I saw a new pole mount rack at the MREA that has built in enclosed wire
channels.

It is very sturdy, heavy and does not use the panels as a structural member.
It is stiff without the panels help.

I think the company that builds it is operated by a NABCEP installer 

The web site is http://www.ussolarmounts.us/index.html 

 

Just so you could check it out,

Bob Ellison

 

 

 

From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Bill Loesch
Sent: Saturday, June 25, 2011 7:28 AM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: [RE-wrenches] Wire Management WAS: Solar World Poly

 

Ray et al, 

 

I'm very curious how the Germans deal with the pigtail wires. Typically,
their standards make ours pale by comparison. 

As solar becomes more mainstream, the trade solutions will follow. 

 

Unfortunate and disappointing that the race to the bottom is now also
including heretofore premium quality manufacturers.

 

Bill Loesch
Solar 1 - Saint Louis Solar

 

- Original Message - 

From: Ray Walters <mailto:r...@solarray.com>  

To: RE-wrenches <mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org>  

Sent: Friday, June 24, 2011 9:06 PM

Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Solar World Poly

 

The company that offers an innovative wire management solution for their
modules will have their stock go up. (Hint Hint Solarworld).
A few years ago we could run conduit module to module, looked great but that
would be unreasonable on a large system today. However the "just let the
wires fly, and the installer can figure out" design may be the current
standard, but its not even close to being optimized.
Its unbelievable all these bright engineers on the manufacturing side can't
come up with something better.

Ray Walters

On 6/24/2011 7:47 PM, William Miller wrote: 

Unfortunately for all of us the PV industry has put little thought into
proper wire management.  Standard appliances (such as air conditioning
units) all accommodate standard trade size wiring hardware (conduit and
fittings).  This is not the case with PV wiring.

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Torque Wrenches

[bob ellison]

I had this discussion a few years ago with my Snap-On dealer; 

They will charge for rebuilding the ratchet assembly when they recalibrate
the torque wrench.

 

This is because if the ratchet slips when they are doing the calibration it
raises hell with the machine! At that point they are out of the
recalibration business until they get it repaired.

 

The recalibration is free, the parts you will pay for. Not a bad deal all
things considered.

 

Later,

Bob Ellison

 

From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of The Solar
Powered Office of Tom Duffy
Sent: Sunday, July 10, 2011 11:21 PM
To: 'RE-wrenches'
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Torque Wrenches

 

Snap On... and I believe they will calibrate it for free for life

 

  Tom Duffy

  Systems Design Engineer



 t...@thesolar.biz

   575-539-2111 X 301

Although no trees were killed in the sending of this message, a large number
of electrons were terribly inconvenienced.

 

Confidentiality Notice: This message including any attachments is for the
sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may contain confidential and
privileged information. Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure or
distribution is prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please
contact the sender and delete any copies of this message.

 

 

  _  

From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Jason
Szumlanski
Sent: Friday, July 08, 2011 7:02 AM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: [RE-wrenches] Torque Wrenches

I'm looking for a recommendation on a good torque wrench for installing S-5
clamps. I saw the past posts on torque screwdrivers, but I'm looking for a
wrench calibrated to the 100-150 in-lbs range.

 

Jason Szumlanski

Fafco Solar

 

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Recommendations for a good diesel generator

[bob ellison]

I have some customers with the Perkins diesels from Hardy Day. They have
impressed me, good running units. 2 wire start is available with the shut
down system.

I think they have a 9kw, the ones that I have seen are 16kw units.

They used to be reasonably priced but that has probably changed.

www.hardydiesel.com 

 

Bob Ellison 

 

From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of mac Lewis
Sent: Thursday, July 28, 2011 8:44 AM
To: re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
Subject: [RE-wrenches] Recommendations for a good diesel generator

 

Hello Wrenches,

 

Does anyone have any recommendations for a decent 10 kWish diesel generator
for an off-grid application?  Customer is insistent about using diesel.
Ideally, this generator would have a two-wire start.

 

Thanks 

-- 

 

 

 

Mac Lewis

"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates

 

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Re: [RE-wrenches] roof types

[bob ellison]

The only choice is metal, or maybe tile.

Use a water dump arrangement to get the first flow to catch the dirt off the
roof that is in the first flow.

You're on an island so salt is a consideration also, as you know that gets
everywhere.

It's a lot easier to put panels on a metal roof than on tile, at least from
my point of view.

 

I can send u more info if you want.

 

Later,

Bob

 

From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Marco
Mangelsdorf
Sent: Tuesday, August 30, 2011 12:25 AM
To: 'RE-wrenches'
Subject: [RE-wrenches] roof types

 

A bit off of the solar subject.

 

Any recommendations for a new roof that would be an acceptable means for
collecting drinking water?

 

Thanks,

marco

 

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Ground Faults and Designing PV systems for lightning prone areas

[bob ellison]

I would expect that a lightning strike could energize everything, but not
necessarily equally. I can't see it, not popping breakers and ground faults.


But that does not mean that it will every time.

I have seen it pop some breakers but not others, in the same box.

You can bet that it is not bothered by a breaker, open or closed.

 

Just my .02 worth,

Bob Ellison 

 

From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Rich Nicol
Sent: Tuesday, September 13, 2011 6:17 AM
To: 'RE-wrenches'
Subject: [RE-wrenches] Ground Faults and Designing PV systems for lightning
prone areas

 

Hi Wrenches

Is there a connection between lightening strikes and ground fault fuses
popping? Can lightening strikes energize the grounding electrode and thereby
pop a ground fault fuse? 

Thanks for your input,

Rich

 

From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Darryl
Thayer
Sent: Monday, September 12, 2011 10:39 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Designing PV systems for lightning prone areas

 

Lightening has a high voltage and HIgh current and High frequency.  The
lightening has gathered it energy over a large area, It has either picked up
electrons or lost electrons to generate this large Potential The electrons
want to return to the earth, So you do not want that path to be through your
equipment.  

1) ESTABILSH A GOOD GROUND ROD ( i had a system that had blown up about 3
times, I drove a 3/4" sectioned ground rod 80' and then drove another about
20  feet away.  Tied the two together and to the frames of my modules.  Then
I took aand connected to the module conductors, using a MOV similar to what
Midnight solar sells.  The system is in a higher relative area, this I did
in 2003 it has never blown up since   

 

From: James Rudolph 
To: RE-wrenches 
Sent: Friday, September 9, 2011 11:32 AM
Subject: [RE-wrenches] Designing PV systems for lightning prone areas


Dear Wrenches,

Does anybody have any best practices for designing large PV arrays on metal
building in lightning prone areas? Lightning arrestors on the DC side and
Surge suppressors on the AC load side? Any input or resources would be
greatly appreciated.

Sunny Regards,
 
James Rudolph
NABCEP Certified Installer
Master Electrician
SF Energy

 

 

 


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Re: [RE-wrenches] Inverter sizing

[bob ellison]

 Am I safe to assume this is off grid? If so the charge controller does the
work.
If so do the calculations on panel sizing for the cold temps and try to
avoid depending on the charge controller to clip any over voltage, Sooner or
later failure is a possibility if you plan on the protection circuit and it
fails nothing good will happen. 
Best to be on the safe side.

Later,
Bob Ellison

-Original Message-
From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Jesse Dahl
Sent: Tuesday, September 27, 2011 11:11 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: [RE-wrenches] Inverter sizing

Hello,

I have been looking at some archived threads (lots of knowledge on here
eh?!) about inverter sizing.  The temperature swings in my area (100 degrees
F to -55 degrees F) are making me stay up hours finding inverters and
modules that don't clip during the cold snowy months when it is clear.  

The data collection info that has been posted has been helpful, but I would
like to know what designers are doing to size inverters for situations like
this.  Allow clipping? If so, how much is acceptable?  1kW, 2kW during those
cold clear days (3 months a year here).  Or is any clipping to much?  

Thanks everyone!

Jesse Dahl  

Sent from my iPad!!!
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Invert first?

[bob ellison]

Might it make more sense to put all the power gear at the panels and run ac
interconnecting wire to the grid tie point and the loads? That way you are
only running the ac wires all the way. It will involve a walk to check the
system, but might be cheaper in the long run. 

 

Otherwise, what are you using for inverters? Will they charge the batteries
from a higher voltage input? 450 volts or so DC off the panels would not be
too bad.

I expect that a standalone battery charger would be way inefficient and the
losses would be high. Most of the stand alone chargers are pretty bad,
efficiency wise.

Using inverter power to feed an inverter to charge the batteries sounds
kinda clunky in the process also, but I think it has been done. 

Would the receiving inverter accept the power? Hard to say, wouldn't want to
buy a bunch and find out otherwise. 

 

How about using the Midnite classics in the higher voltage range, and
converting it to battery voltage as usual? It might (will) take several but
all the other options (controller wise) would probably take as many or more.
Some of the Classics will take up to a 250 volt input, that would help to
cut down on the copper 

 

 

Just a quick thought stream,

 

Bob Ellison

 

 

From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Eric Thomas
Sent: Sunday, October 02, 2011 12:15 PM
To: re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
Subject: [RE-wrenches] Invert first?

 

Wrenches,

We are designing a super high end grid-tied w/ battery backup system for a
customer. Array will be ~15kW; pole or stand alone structure mounted; 250'
from home/batteries. My question is: does it make any sense to invert the
power at the array and use this ac to make the long run to the batteries
THEN connect to a typical battery charger rather than a dc charge
controller? Im mostly concerned with huge dc conductors making this run
across the property. Havent delved into the specific design enough to size
said conductors yet, or specify any equipment, but wanted to know if im
barking up the wrong tree ir not.
Thanks for the insight.

Eric Thomas
Founder
Solar Epiphany LLC
NABCEP Certified PV Installer
WA Electrical Contractor # SOLAREL911NR

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Invert first?

[bob ellison]

I heard there were come kinks in the new XW getting them to play well
together. I understand it's 2 units in a single case and there are some
problems with the idea. 
Can't remember think it was at the fair in PA. that someone mentioned it but
it could have been elsewhere.

I have learned to hate the bleeding edge!

Bob Ellison 

-Original Message-
From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Dan Fink
Sent: Sunday, October 02, 2011 1:37 PM
To: penobscotso...@midmaine.com
Cc: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Invert first?

Brand new, and it is shipping now. XW-MPPT80-600. It certainly raised my 
eyebrows. But it's so new that I don't know of anyone who has installed 
one yet.

Dan Fink
Executive Director;
Buckville Energy Consulting
Buckville Publications LLC
NABCEP / IREC / ISPQ accredited Continuing Education Providers
http://www.buckville.com/
i...@buckville.com
970.672.4342 (voicemail)
970.373.1311 (fax)



penobscotso...@midmaine.com wrote:
> Dan,
>Is the Xantrex controller available/released yet? I've used the Classic
> 250 and the Apollo HV but have yet to see/use a Xantrex 600 Voc 
> controller.will anyone who has used one chime in and share their
> experience ?
> 
> 
> 
>> Hi Eric;
>>
>> I'll be very interested to hear what others on this list who have far
>> more experience than me in large systems have to say about this.
>>
>> But my first thought is, go DC. The new Xantrex XW high voltage MPPT
>> charge controller will take up to 600 Voc from PV and put it into a
>> standard battery bank, that roughly puts you realistically at just 30
>> amps in your DC lines.
>>
>> How were you planning to invert to AC at the PV array? Enphase etc? How
>> do you do battery backup with an Enphase system (I have no idea, but am
>> eager to learn from others here)? Any standard islanding grid-tie
>> inverter will need to be right next to the battery bank.
>>
>> Dan Fink
>> Executive Director;
>> Buckville Energy Consulting
>> Buckville Publications LLC
>> NABCEP / IREC / ISPQ accredited Continuing Education Providers
>> http://www.buckville.com/
>> i...@buckville.com
>> 970.672.4342 (voicemail)
>> 970.373.1311 (fax)
>>
>>
>>
>> Eric Thomas wrote:
>>> Wrenches,
>>>
>>> We are designing a super high end grid-tied w/ battery backup system for
>>> a customer. Array will be ~15kW; pole or stand alone structure mounted;
>>> 250' from home/batteries. My question is: does it make any sense to
>>> invert the power at the array and use this ac to make the long run to
>>> the batteries THEN connect to a typical battery charger rather than a dc
>>> charge controller? Im mostly concerned with huge dc conductors making
>>> this run across the property. Havent delved into the specific design
>>> enough to size said conductors yet, or specify any equipment, but wanted
>>> to know if im barking up the wrong tree ir not.
>>> Thanks for the insight.
>>>
>>> Eric Thomas
>>> Founder
>>> Solar Epiphany LLC
>>> NABCEP Certified PV Installer
>>> WA Electrical Contractor # SOLAREL911NR
>>>
>>>
>>> 
>>>
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>>
> 
> 
> 
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Re: [RE-wrenches] GNB Battery Contact

[bob ellison]

Peter,

Is this for use outside on terrain (like at a job site getting supplies to a
roof) or inside on a concrete floor? It makes a difference on the tires and
suspension as well as the rating.

 

Bob Ellison

 

From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Peter
Parrish
Sent: Sunday, October 02, 2011 12:08 PM
To: 'RE-wrenches'
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] GNB Battery Contact

 

We are looking for a battery-powered fork lift: total vertical lift 22' and
load (typically on pallets) 350 to 700 lbs. We will of course need a solar
powered charging station, but that can be designed once we have a good fork
lift identified.

 

Has anyone actually purchased a battery-powered forklift or could direct me
to someone who has?

 

- Peter

 

Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D., President
California Solar Engineering, Inc.
820 Cynthia Ave., Los Angeles, CA 90065
CA Lic. 854779, NABCEP Cert. 031806-26
peter.parr...@calsolareng.com  
Ph 323-258-8883, Mobile 323-839-6108, Fax 323-258-8885


 

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Re: [RE-wrenches] intermittent battery problem

[bob ellison]

I bet he has a cheap pointer type hydrometer, I have seen them be way off
from reality.

My guess is that the gravity is low the voltage changes quickly, specific
gravity changes slowly in a battery bank.

To fully charge a 24 volt bank you need to get it to 29 + volts and keep it
there for several hours, depending on the battery bank size.

Charging it to 25.4 is nothing in the long run.

Give them a LONG full charge, what are the inverters? Does it ever get an EQ
charge?

 

Bob Ellison 

 

From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Ron Young
Sent: Saturday, October 08, 2011 2:02 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: [RE-wrenches] intermittent battery problem

 

Howdy Wrenches,

 

One of my customers that lives 3 hours out in the back country is having an
intermittent problem that I haven't encountered before. The batteries drop
rapidly in voltage but hydrometer readings are in the green. Turning off the
inverter and just using DC doesn't change anything. Meters on the Mate,
Outback MX and Whisper controller are all the same so it's not a metering
problem. On the way to bed the batteries were at 25.4, overnight with no
loads they dropped to 22.9 then a short 15 min. charge with a generator
brings the batteries back up and two hours later they are at 25.8. This
scenario has occurred several times and then doesn't appear for a day or
two.

 

It doesn't seem to be sulfation as the batteries are reading good on the
hydrometer every time. All cells check out. The inverter doesn't seem to be
the problem. They have a Sunfrost on a separate DC circuit. It sounds like
an intermittent circuit problem or electronics issue. Customer has checked
and tightened all the connections he can get at but hasn't been inside the
components. Would appreciate any suggestions or clues before I make the
trip.

 

Ron Young

 

earthRight Products - Solareagle.com

Alternative Energy Solutions ~ Renewable Energy Products

 

 

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Booster Pump/Slowpump information

[bob ellison]

I HAD one installed and the inspector would not let me use an inline fuse
(seems like it was a 1 amp) so we had to run it from a breaker and it locked
up and let the smoke out of it.

 

Just another experience,

Bob Ellison

 

 

From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Roy Butler
Sent: Thursday, October 20, 2011 5:33 PM
To: al...@positiveenergysolar.com; RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Booster Pump/Slowpump information

 

Thank you Allan, this is really good information. I have about 35 of these
in the field at this time
and I'll need this info soon, I'm sure!



Roy Butler
NABCEP Certified Small Wind InstallerR
NABCEP Certified Solar PV InstallerR
NYSERDA eligible PV & wind installer
Four Winds Renewable Energy, LLC
8902 Route 46
Arkport, NY 14807
607-324-9747
 
www.four-winds-energy.com
 
Although no trees were killed in the sending of this message, 
a large number of electrons were terribly inconvenienced.
 



On 10/20/2011 4:10 PM, Allan Sindelar wrote: 

Wrenches:
This information is important to those companies that have customers with
Dankoff/Flowlight Booster Pumps and Slowpumps. These pumps use DC motors to
drive rotary vane positive displacement pump heads made by Procon. Windy
Dankoff developed these pumps about 30 years ago and I think thousands have
been sold. Other than the quirkiness of their need for fine (10 micron)
filtration on the intake side, and the relative unreliability of the
optional dry run protection thermal snap switch, the pumps are exceptionally
well-made and long-lasting, in my experience.

Early (before around 1998) pumps were sold under the "Flowlight" name; then
under "Dankoff Solar Pumps" name until Conergy bought Dankoff around 2004.
The pumps had Conergy's name on them until around two years ago, when
Conergy closed its sales and distribution of water pumping, solar thermal,
and wind products. Innovative Solar bought the water pumping line and
restored the "Dankoff Pumps" name. Innovative Solar became Argand, and
changed their distribution model in order to not compete with their dealers
(attaboy!); Dankoff Pumps, while owned by Argand, is wholesale only; new
dealers must place a minimum stocking order. The pumps continue to be
manufactured here in Santa Fe by the same folks that have made and serviced
them for years, and quality and support remain high. 

Dankoff Pumps website is currently www.Dankoff-Pumps.com. Note the hyphen;
www.Dankoffpumps.com takes you to a (currently closed) online store, with
referral links to Dankoff Pumps for dealers who want to become dealers.
Dankoff Pumps will soon be either moving to or adding
www.DankoffSolarPumps.com as well, I understand, but this hasn't happened
yet. Contact Dankoff Pumps at m...@dankoff-pumps.com.

The Procon heads wear out. New replacement heads are available through
Dankoff Pumps (and probably other sources as well). However, the heads are
rebuildable, and the cost is much less than new. We always ask customers for
their old pump heads in exchange for new or rebuilt ones. The rebuilder is
Edco Service Center, 8220 Belvedere Ave., Suite F, Sacramento, CA 95826;
916-454-1445. The contact person there is Sandie,
san...@edcodistributing.com.

Recently we learned some critical information related to pump rebuilding:
the heads may rebuilt in many configurations, and it's essential to specify
that the pump heads must be for potable water applications. This has to do
with the amount of lead in various internal components. According to Sandie
at Edco, you must specify a 114E head. According to Matt at Dankoff Pumps,
the full designation is 114E240F11XX for the Booster Pump head and this
should be specified in full. All original Booster Pump and Slowpump heads
were acceptable for potable water; however, due to a mixup of indeterminable
cause, we were recently sent a set of 104 rebuilt heads, which aren't
(according to the State of California) suitable for potable applications due
to lead content. To their credit, Edco will re-rebuild these heads to
potable standards at no cost to us save shipping, but this seemed to me to
be a good opportunity to share this information widely with other water
pumping Wrenches.

Allan

-- 
Allan Sindelar
 <mailto:al...@positiveenergysolar.com> al...@positiveenergysolar.com
NABCEP Certified Photovoltaic Installer
NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional
New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician
Positive Energy, Inc.
3201 Calle Marie
Santa Fe, New Mexico 87507
505 424-1112
www.positiveenergysolar.com <http://www.positiveenergysolar.com/>  

 

 






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Re: [RE-wrenches] Booster Pump/Slowpump information

[bob ellison]

This was an AC pump, not a dc pump. That changes the numbers somewhat, and
yes I should have put one in after the inspector left. So much for
hindsight..

I still have the carcass here somewhere, and it was also 15 or 18 years ago.

Guess that says something about my collect of gear.

 

Bob Ellison

 

From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Allan
Sindelar
Sent: Thursday, October 20, 2011 7:00 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Booster Pump/Slowpump information

 

Bob,
This doesn't make sense to me. A 12V standard-speed model #2920 runs 22A
max; 24V is 11A max. A low-speed model #2910 runs 15A and 7.5A max
respectively.
I would think that you could have used a circuit breaker to satisfy the
inspector, then added a time-delay fuse of the correct amperage for your
application in addition to the CB. 

The instructions in the manual are pretty clear (although if I used an ATC
fuse it would have to be after the inspector left; AGC time-delay would more
closely meet Code...):

FAILURE TO INSTALL A FUSE OR BREAKER equal to or less than the motor's Max
Amps rating WILL VOID YOUR WARRANTY. If water flow becomes blocked, or if
the pump jams or freezes and cannot turn freely, the motor will draw
excessive current. A fuse or circuit breaker will then break the circuit.
Without such a "safety valve", a minor fault can burn your motor and wiring.
Install a fuse or breaker with an AMP RATING close to the "MAX AMPS" rating
of your motor, OR LESS (but not more higher). If a Linear Current Booster is
being used (for array-direct Slowpumps) install the fuse between the booster
and the pump. Use the rating recommended for the booster or for the pump,
WHICHEVER IS LESS. This fuse will protect the booster as well as the motor
and wiring from overload.

FUSES: Use a "time-delay" type. The 3" paper cartridge type is good, and may
be installed into a raintight disconnect switch available at any electric
supplier. An automotive in-line fuse holder is fine for 12 or 24V systems.
Automotive blade fuses (type ATC) are preferred over glass fuses. They have
sufficient time-delay. (Time-delay glass fuses are available from ELECTRONIC
suppliers only, not automotive.) Use good quality fuse holders, protected
from weather. Keep spare fuses handy. Never substitute a larger fuse!

CIRCUIT BREAKERS: Most AC breakers cannot be used for low voltage DC
circuits. We recommend only the SQUARE-DR QO or QB-series which been rated
safe up to 48 volts DC. A 10 amp size is available, but not in most stores.
It may be ordered from your PV dealer or from an electric supplier.

Locking up is usually a result of freezing. I have seen one motor ruined in
all of my years with this pump, and it was the result of freezing and
improper fusing. If the pump is installed correctly, and the correct inlet
fitting with safety screen is used, there is little else to cause a lockup.
And the fuse protection is designed to protect the pump in the event of such
damage. Freezing solid will usually ruin the head but not the motor if it's
fused correctly.

Allan

Allan Sindelar
 <mailto:al...@positiveenergysolar.com> al...@positiveenergysolar.com
NABCEP Certified Photovoltaic Installer
NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional
New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician
Positive Energy, Inc.
3201 Calle Marie
Santa Fe, New Mexico 87507
505 424-1112
www.positiveenergysolar.com <http://www.positiveenergysolar.com/>  

 

 


On 10/20/2011 4:09 PM, bob ellison wrote: 

I HAD one installed and the inspector would not let me use an inline fuse
(seems like it was a 1 amp) so we had to run it from a breaker and it locked
up and let the smoke out of it.

 

Just another experience,

Bob Ellison

 

 

From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Roy Butler
Sent: Thursday, October 20, 2011 5:33 PM
To: al...@positiveenergysolar.com; RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Booster Pump/Slowpump information

 

Thank you Allan, this is really good information. I have about 35 of these
in the field at this time
and I'll need this info soon, I'm sure!



Roy Butler
NABCEP Certified Small Wind InstallerR
NABCEP Certified Solar PV InstallerR
NYSERDA eligible PV & wind installer
Four Winds Renewable Energy, LLC
8902 Route 46
Arkport, NY 14807
607-324-9747
 
www.four-winds-energy.com
 
Although no trees were killed in the sending of this message, 
a large number of electrons were terribly inconvenienced.
 



On 10/20/2011 4:10 PM, Allan Sindelar wrote: 

Wrenches:
This information is important to those companies that have customers with
Dankoff/Flowlight Booster Pumps and Slowpumps. These pumps use DC motors to
drive rotary vane positive displacement pump heads made by Procon. Windy
Dankoff developed these pumps about 30 years ago and I think thousands

Re: [RE-wrenches] Wet locations: (was Push-in Wire Connectors)

[bob ellison]

I don't think the goo filled wire nuts are a problem, it would just prevent
corrosion from entering into the connection a few years down the road.  

Remember that we are supposed to have a solid mechanical connection before
we put on the wire nut. I always look at it as the nut just keeps me from
hitting the bare wire ends, not from keeping them from coming apart.

 

Bob Ellison

 

From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of William
Miller
Sent: Friday, October 21, 2011 7:32 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Wet locations: (was Push-in Wire Connectors)

 

Ray/Jamie:

I think that a 3R installation may be superior to a Nema 4.  With a 3R any
condensation build up can drain.

Thanks to all of you for another round of thoughtful, well informed,
technical discussion.  This forum is very helpful and I really feel a lot of
camaraderie even though we are interfacing on a text basis.

William Miller



At 04:08 PM 10/21/2011, you wrote:



I started using the wet rated wire nuts, because I've found some corrosion
in old connectors in outdoor boxes. BTW, why don't you like the goo filled
wire nuts? They seem a decent and cost effective solution.
 I agree with your idea that condensation and moisture buildup can occur
even in a NEMA 4 box, and the issue that I have is that breakers and fuse
holders in combiner boxes are definitely not wet rated. I wonder what
happens to the internal workings of a breaker after decades in an outdoor
box, but considering there are an awful lot of them around (at least AC) I
guess I'll get  another night's sleep in our less than perfect world of PV
wiring.

Ray

On 10/21/2011 9:05 AM, Jamie Johnson wrote: 



William, the only explanation that I have found for using THWN-2 in conduit
run through the attic is that during the day as the temperature in the attic
increases, the air in the conduit expands, at night the opposite effect
happens, the temperature in the attic decreases and the volume of air in the
conduit contracts with the potential to bring in what ever climate
conditions exist outside the conduit (In FL this could be humid air).
 
Over time if there is humid air present, this could form condensation in the
conduit or NEMA 4 rated enclosure, hence the need for wire and connections
rated for a wet location.
 
I have seen photos at inspectors meetings of NEMA 4 enclosures and conduit
that contained water although I am not sure how often this would normally
happen.

Jamie Johnson
NABCEP Certified PV Technical Sales Professional
NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer

General Manager
SOLAR POWER ELECTRIC
988e514.jpg
 
 



 Original Message 
Subject: [RE-wrenches] Wet locations: (was Push-in Wire Connectors)
From: William Miller 
Date: Fri, October 21, 2011 10:51 am
To: RE-wrenches 

Friends:

I have had plan checkers insist I use wet rated wire on rooftops even though
the wire was in either liquid tight or EMT with raintight connectors.  I did
not need to dispute this because we had specified THHN wire that is also
rated THWN for wet locations.  This discussion makes me think I should have
contradicted the requirement because I am not sure wet rated wire is
required inside dry conduit.  I will be looking this up.

I feel that you should not let an AHJ impose a requirement that is not in
the code because then you become bound to the new stricture.  I realize that
an AHJ can impose stricter requirements, but I insist that it be in writing,
required in advance of the job in question and that it be required
universally.  Otherwise, it's anarchy.

William Miller


Miller Solar
Voice :805-438-5600
email: will...@millersolar.com
http://millersolar.com <http://millersolar.com/> 
License No. C-10-773985

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[RE-wrenches] Cummins DC generator

[bob ellison]

I downloaded the spec sheets on the DC generator, it's either LP or natural
gas. Also it's regulated to 26 volts or 52 volts, so it's about useless to
charge batteries in an off grid system, unless you just need to feed power
to the battery bank.

Bob Ellison

From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Ray Walters
Sent: Friday, October 21, 2011 7:41 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Three-phase off-grid

 

HI Allan;

I haven't tried the large Exeltech inverters, but I could see some
advantages to having a separate charging system, and keeping the inverters
supplying stable power. Everytime a generator coughs or switches from one
source to another, it seems to cause trouble. The generator could be sized
smaller, since it wouldn't need any surge capability. It would always run
the same charger, and the inverters would always run the same loads. I'd at
least take another look at it for my next large project, but cost might be a
limiting factor.
Here's a Cummins diesel DC generator, just to think about:
http://www.cumminspowerproducts.com/DCgensets/Other/1500.pdf

Ray

On 10/21/2011 4:56 PM, Gary Willett wrote: 

Alan: Thanks for setting me straight about 3-phasing the Outback Radian - I
was not aware they are limited to parallel single phase applications.

Regards,

Gary Willett


On 10/21/2011 15:29, Allan Sindelar wrote: 

Gary,
I was surprised by this information, as I had presumed that both units were
for single-phase only. So I checked.

Mary Raub in tech support at Outback told me that the Radian works only in
120/240 single-phase, although they are stackable in parallel.

Someone in Schneider tech support told me that the XW can be used in
three-phase, up to six units (36 kW). Setup instructions are in Appendix D
of the XW installation guide, found online at
http://www.global-download.schneider-electric.com/85257849002EB8CB/all/5CC68
9CC3CB7FD10852578BF005EA759/$File/xw-hybrid-inverter-charger_installation-gu
ide%28975-0239-01-01_rev-e%29.pdf.

Thanks, Allan
 

Allan Sindelar
 <mailto:al...@positiveenergysolar.com> al...@positiveenergysolar.com
NABCEP Certified Photovoltaic Installer
NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional
New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician
Positive Energy, Inc.
3201 Calle Marie
Santa Fe, New Mexico 87507
505 424-1112
www.positiveenergysolar.com <http://www.positiveenergysolar.com/>  


On 10/21/2011 2:01 PM, Gary Willett wrote: 

Allan:
Also, you might consider using six to nine Schneider/Xantrex XW6048
inverters, or  six to nine Outback Radian GS8048 inverters, in a 3-phase
configuration, with a common battery bank.
Also, Schneider/Xantrex has an 80A 600V charge controller that may be
advantageous depending on the distance from the PV arrays to the inverters.

Regards,
Gary Willett, PE
Icarus-Engineering LLC

Icarus Solar Services LLC


On 10/21/2011 10:17, Allan Sindelar wrote: 

Wrenches,
We have been asked for a design for an off-grid system to reduce generator
runtime for a mountain resort. Initial projections (consumption measurement
results not yet available) suggest 15-20 kW of PV and around 30 kW of
inverter capacity. However, the generators and existing wiring are
three-phase 120/208.

My assumption is that our only options are a set of six Sunny Islands, or
9-12 Outback GVFX3648s. Are there any other options or approaches that I'm
missing?

Thank you, Allan

-- 
Allan Sindelar
 <mailto:al...@positiveenergysolar.com> al...@positiveenergysolar.com
NABCEP Certified Photovoltaic Installer
NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional
New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician
Positive Energy, Inc.
3201 Calle Marie
Santa Fe, New Mexico 87507
505 424-1112
www.positiveenergysolar.com <http://www.positiveenergysolar.com/>  

 






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Re: [RE-wrenches] Cummins DC generator

[bob ellison]

I have always liked the idea of running a dc charger into a battery bank.

 

In the past I have played with the "incharge" from Xantrex, it was an
incredibly difficult unit to program. It had magnet switches located in the
potting epoxy that you had to activate to adjust the settings and it went in
a specific order. Miss one and you were back to the start and do it again. I
grew to hate it and relatively quickly.

It had lots of adjustability but I could not master the adjustment process.
I ultimately changed battery voltage and it was no longer useful to me. 

I think the original idea was built by Bob O and I have people who have used
them and it worked well. It had 2 knobs to do the adjustments, I understood
that!

I just could never build one, boards aren't my thing. I had a friend build
one for me and that was a massive failure.

I still would like to find one of Bob O's units to use.

 

As usual just my .02 worth.

Bob Ellison

 

From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of R Ray
Walters
Sent: Monday, October 24, 2011 10:55 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Cummins DC generator

 

They show them as being used specifically for off grid solar applications
including remote homes, but I'm with you, I don't understand the voltage
limitation.

They seem to think they are just replacing the battery while running, not
actually charging it. Very weird. I even went through their case studies,
and I'm wondering if they might end up with some long term sulfation
problems. It seems they're only interested in reducing the battery size, not
augmenting the PV charging; seems a waste of fuel.

 

I linked to these for Allan earlier just as "food for thought" I wasn't
actually advocating their use. It does look like a decent generator, so
possibly the voltage limitation could be overcome?

I remember another DC gen set, that ran a Honda motor to belt belt drive a
truck alternator (late 90s). I recall them being something of a pain.

 

Here's another that looks interesting, and actually can be adjusted up to 64
vdc: http://polarpowerinc.com/products/generators/index.htm

Once again, I'm just sharing the info, not advocating these.

 

R. Walters

r...@solarray.com

Solar Engineer

 

 





 

On Oct 24, 2011, at 6:30 PM, bob ellison wrote:





I downloaded the spec sheets on the DC generator, it's either LP or natural
gas. Also it's regulated to 26 volts or 52 volts, so it's about useless to
charge batteries in an off grid system, unless you just need to feed power
to the battery bank.

Bob Ellison

From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Ray Walters
Sent: Friday, October 21, 2011 7:41 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Three-phase off-grid

 

HI Allan;

I haven't tried the large Exeltech inverters, but I could see some
advantages to having a separate charging system, and keeping the inverters
supplying stable power. Everytime a generator coughs or switches from one
source to another, it seems to cause trouble. The generator could be sized
smaller, since it wouldn't need any surge capability. It would always run
the same charger, and the inverters would always run the same loads. I'd at
least take another look at it for my next large project, but cost might be a
limiting factor.
Here's a Cummins diesel DC generator, just to think about:
http://www.cumminspowerproducts.com/DCgensets/Other/1500.pdf

Ray

On 10/21/2011 4:56 PM, Gary Willett wrote:

Alan: Thanks for setting me straight about 3-phasing the Outback Radian - I
was not aware they are limited to parallel single phase applications.

Regards,

Gary Willett


On 10/21/2011 15:29, Allan Sindelar wrote:

Gary,
I was surprised by this information, as I had presumed that both units were
for single-phase only. So I checked.

Mary Raub in tech support at Outback told me that the Radian works only in
120/240 single-phase, although they are stackable in parallel.

Someone in Schneider tech support told me that the XW can be used in
three-phase, up to six units (36 kW). Setup instructions are in Appendix D
of the XW installation guide, found online at
http://www.global-download.schneider-electric.com/85257849002EB8CB/all/5CC68
9CC3CB7FD10852578BF005EA759/$File/xw-hybrid-inverter-charger_installation-gu
ide%28975-0239-01-01_rev-e%29.pdf.

Thanks, Allan
 

Allan Sindelar
 <mailto:al...@positiveenergysolar.com> al...@positiveenergysolar.com
NABCEP Certified Photovoltaic Installer
NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional
New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician
Positive Energy, Inc.
3201 Calle Marie
Santa Fe, New Mexico 87507
505 424-1112
www.positiveenergysolar.com <http://www.positiveenergysolar.com/> 


On 10/21/2011 2:01 PM, Gary Willett wrote:

Allan:
Also, you might consider usi

Re: [RE-wrenches] cable spacing in trenches

[bob ellison]

What are you running for combiner boxes and wire to run at 1000 volts?

Seems that I remember that fuses are only good for 600 volts and most boxes the 
same limit? 

What are you using?

 

Just wondering,

Bob Ellison 

 

From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org 
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Jerry Caldwell
Sent: Thursday, November 03, 2011 5:42 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: [RE-wrenches] cable spacing in trenches

 

Can anyone direct me to the NEC article that stipulates how many inches of 
separation must be between cables operating at different voltages?

 

I have a project with PV combiner box home runs at 1,000 volts DC in the same 
trench with 12.47 kV cables.  Table 300.5 shows minimum cover requirements for 
direct burial cables, but this is the distance beneath grade the cables must 
be.  Is there anywhere in the code that calls for a minimum separation distance 
between cables at different voltages?

 

Thanks,

Jerry Caldwell

 

 

 

  _  

From: Marco Mangelsdorf 
To: 'RE-wrenches' 
Sent: Thursday, November 3, 2011 2:27 PM
Subject: [RE-wrenches] under performing Enphase inverters

For the first time, several weeks ago, after 40-50 Enphase installs, we’ve come 
across at least two M210s that we putting out consistently lower outputs than 
their immediate neighbors.

 

We replaced the two mods first, which made no difference.  Then, in 
consultation with Enphase, replaced the M210s.  After replacing them, the power 
output was as it should be.

 

Now I’ve got another suspect system with several underperforming mods out of 
(36).

 

Has anyone else had this experience?

 

Thanks,

marco

 


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Re: [RE-wrenches] Small Off-Grid Inverter Recommendation

[bob ellison]

If you need a charger capability, look at the magnum MMS1012. Up to a 50 amp
charger and it's a sinewave, don't bother with the modifieds. Sleep mode can
go down to 5 watts I think.

The Morningstar mppt is a good small controller that works well

Later,

Bob 

 

From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Jeff Irish
Sent: Friday, November 11, 2011 10:46 AM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: [RE-wrenches] Small Off-Grid Inverter Recommendation

 

Any recommendations from those of you with extensive off grid experience for
a small inverter, sine wave, 500-1000 watt range 120 vac output, 12 or 24
VDC nominal input?  I'm looking for something with low standby losses when
there are no loads, and high reliability.  Thanks!

 

Jeff Irish, PE

President

Hudson Valley Clean Energy, Inc.

and Adirondack Solar

13 Hook Road

Rhinebeck, NY 12572

T.845.876.3767x110

F.845.876.3912

j...@hvce.com

Renewable Energy Systems

Solar, Wind, Geothermal

NYSERDA Eligible PV Installer

NABCEP Certified PV Installer

 

 

 

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Re: [RE-wrenches] GEC and EGC Advice

[bob ellison]

I would run a wire, I have seen metallic conduit used as ground come apart
in buildings. At that point we know where the ground (or at least the
connection goes..)

I doubt that it makes a difference whether it is single or 3 phase.

But there are lots of people on the list with more 3 phase experience than I
have. 

 

Later,

Bob Ellison

 

From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Allen
Frishman
Sent: Tuesday, December 06, 2011 3:30 AM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: [RE-wrenches] GEC and EGC Advice

 

Fellow Wrenchers,

I know this topic has come up before and I have a understanding but I am
looking for best practices advice.

 

When installing a 50KW or larger 3 phase 208V (WYE Service) Inverter on a
roof do you run your Grounding Electrode Conductor in a separate conduit
from the 3 hots, and the Equipment Grounding Conductor or do you run it all
in the same conduit together.

 

My thought is to run it all in the same conduit and utilize the metalic
conduit as the Equipment Ground instead of running a actual conductor for
the EGC.

 

All feedback is appreciated.

Al Frishman
AeonSolar

(917) 699-6641   - cell
(888) 460-2867  
www.aeonsolar.com <http://www.aeonsolar.com/> 

 

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Cable spec request

[bob ellison]

Hi Allan,

I have several part reels of 4 twisted pair Belden that I use for e meters.
It is shielded, static line, direct burial and all the good stuff.

 

Always best run alone to keep the signal from getting scrambled but it you
usually run it together, so be it..

 

Let me know,

Bob

 

  _  

From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Allan
Sindelar
Sent: Friday, April 24, 2009 4:38 PM
To: 'RE-wrenches'
Subject: [RE-wrenches] Cable spec request

 

Wrenches,

We stopped using E-Meters about ten years ago in favor of Tri-Mets. Among
other things, the Tri-Met uses 4-conductor cable while the E-Meter needs 5
conductors. I need to move an E-Meter to a new location and need about 80'
of 5-conductor cable (with at least one twisted pair), which we no longer
carry. I called Anixter, but was quoted a prohibitive price.

 

I need, please, a source and spec on reasonably-priced cut-length 5- (or
more likely 6-) conductor AWG 18 or 20 cable with shield and drain to go in
conduit with other conductors between buildings. Can you help?

Thanks,

Allan at Positive Energy 

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Off-grid generator update?

[Bob Ellison]

I have been using a lot of additives in testing.

 

Best so far is PRI D for diesel with PRI G for gas This is what the treat 
locomotives and freighters with for long term storage. Very concentrated, an 
ounce treats something like 16 gallons.

Best to treat when filling and keep tank full at least while not being used. 
Fill it and park it so to speak. The full tank keeps condensation from forming 
so rapidly.

 

2nd would be K 100 MD and MG it has long term storage additives the regular K 
100 does not have. Good product but the PRI G/D is better

 

Stabil has not impressed me 

 

Anybody storing fuel wants to be filling the tanks and treating them NOW, it 
will probably not be this low in the fall.

 

It is nice to pick up the chain saw, mower or tiller and have it start with no 
major headaches after a year layover!

 

Just from my testing and experience,

 

Bob Ellison 

 

From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf 
Of Dave
Sent: Thursday, May 05, 2016 2:21 PM
To: 'RE-wrenches' 
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Off-grid generator update?

 

For off grid systems with back up charging powered by diesel, what is the best 
fuel treatment to add to a 275 gallon diesel fuel tank that is sitting about 
half full? 

 

The summer use of the diesel gen is typically very low until November on a 
properly sized PV system here in Vermont.

 

Thanks,

Dave

 

David Palumbo 

Independent Power LLC

462 Solar Way Drive

Hyde Park, VT 05655

802-371-8678 cell

802-888-4917 home

 

 

 

From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf 
Of Chris Mason
Sent: Thursday, May 05, 2016 12:49 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Off-grid generator update?

 

This is the major disadvantage of diesel over propane.

Diesel can be corrupted with bacteria, water through condensation and algae. 
Fuel polishing is the process to clean the diesel and remove the contaminants, 
the equipment is expensive so it is normally done as a service.

If the fuel goes bad, it can ruin the injectors and pump, requiring a very 
expensive service.

Propane dissipates in the engine, and propane stores indefinitely without 
degradation.

 

http://criticalfueltech.com/faq.html

 

 

 

 

 

On Thu, May 5, 2016 at 10:02 AM, jay mailto:jay.pe...@gmail.com> > wrote:

Question to all the generator techs out there.

 

I’ve always been told that you don’t want a diesel to be sitting for long 
periods.  Fuel can go bad, all that sort of thing.

Vs propane which doesn’t care.

 

Is that true?

Or in mild climates will a monthly must run be OK?  

 

Thanks

jay

 

 

On May 5, 2016, at 6:13 AM, Mac Lewis mailto:maclew...@gmail.com> > wrote:

 

Chris,

 

Yes, this is a good point.  The QT series from Generac is a great machine and 
pricing is better than any other machine in that size that I've seen.  Is there 
an off-grid warranty on the QT series?

 

On Thu, May 5, 2016 at 3:14 AM, Chris Mason mailto:cometenergysyst...@gmail.com> > wrote:

 

 


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-- 

Chris Mason

NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™

Solar Design Engineer

Generac Generators Industrial technician

 

www.cometsolar.com <http://www.cometenergysystems.com> 

264.235.5670

869.662.5670

Skype: netconcepts

  _  

No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com <http://www.avg.com> 
Version: 2016.0.7596 / Virus Database: 4565/12169 - Release Date: 05/05/16

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[RE-wrenches] Trace SW 4024

[bob ellison]

Does anyone have the wiring diagram for the Trace SW4024 relay with the 2
level terminal block as opposed to the direct relay connections?

We can't find any manuals that don't show the relays.

 

Thanks,

Bob 

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Re: [RE-wrenches] small battery boxes

[bob ellison]

Have you tried "Quick Cable" I think you will need to vent and lock it 

Bob Ellison

-Original Message-
From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Jeff Yago
Sent: Thursday, December 29, 2011 11:53 PM
To: 'RE-wrenches'
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] small battery boxes

We are having a real problem finding a pole-mounted battery box for smaller
solar sign lighting projects.  We have switched to LED lights which cost
more byt do not require the larger batteries and solar module.  However, the
smallest battery box we can find is the DPW 16" wide x 9" deep X 20" tall.
This is a great box for  group 31 battery, but is too large and costs too
much for smaller applications.  I am thinking about using a group 22 battery
which would fit in a pole-mounted battery box that is 12" wide x 8" deep x
15" high, which still leaves room for a control panel at the top rear.

It does not look like the solar manufacturers have anything, so do you know
of anybody making a battery box this size but perhaps it is being sold for
another type application.  It still will need small screened louvers for
ventilation and a locking door, but we can always make our own control panel
if that is not supplied.  Since its 12 volt DC and off-grid application I do
not think it needs to be UL listed which might help reduce cost, but not
sure.

Any suggestions??

Thanks,

Jeff Yago
  



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Re: [RE-wrenches] battery venting

[bob ellison]

Mount a BRUSHLESS fan inside the box blowing out into the pipe, do not
pressurize the box, that will blow gasses into the room, it is bound to
leak. Use screened vents to keep out the critters.
I use a Carlon 6x6x4 box to mount the fan and vent, also don't mount the
relay if you use one, in the battery box. Things night go bang!

Going back to the woods!

Happy New Year!
Later,
Bob 

-Original Message-
From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Exeltech
Sent: Saturday, December 31, 2011 5:17 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] battery venting

Hello Jeffrey,

Since you're working under constrained conditions for the install, and
apparently have little option on using the flooded/vented batteries, here
are some suggestions that may help:

1) Do your best to ensure the battery enclosure is reasonably sealed except
for the outlet vent.


2) Use non-corrosive vent pipe of as large a diameter as is practicable for
your circumstances.
Angle it upwards at all times.  A 4% hydrogen concentration can be
explosive.


3) Install corrosion-resistant screening at the vent outlet, and with the
vent oriented in a manner to discourage entry of unwanted anything.


4) Install the vent fan on the fresh-air inlet side of the box.  The inlet
itself should be located below the tops of the batteries, and at the
opposite end from the vent.  Screen the inlet to keep critters and anything
else from getting in.

This accomplishes several goals:

a) Keeps the fan and its mechanics out of the corrosive flow; b) Eliminates
any possibility of a spark occurring in the hydrogen; c) Locates the fan
into a "friendlier" atmosphere, reducing its exposure to insects and other
accumulating junk;
d) Makes the fan easier to service/replace if it
*should* fail.


Happy New Year to all.



Dan






> --- On Sat, 12/31/11, Richard L Ratico  
> wrote:
> 
> From: Richard L Ratico 
> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] battery venting
> To: re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
> Date: Saturday, December 31, 2011, 1:47 PM Huh??? I'm probably 
> missiing something here.
> What happens when the powervent fails???
> I replace it with another, the same thing I do when other equipment in 
> our whiz bang industry fails.
> 
> The difference with the powervent is that it is easy and relatively 
> inexpensive. I've also had good luck using screens on the vent inlet 
> and outlets, per the instuctions, albeit a high tech solution.  :-)
> 
> Seems inverters, charge controllers,
> batteries, DC breakers, even modules fail more frequenty.
> Rant off.
> 
> Dick Ratico
> Solarwind Electric
> 
> 
> 
> --- You wrote:
> Jeffrey,
> 
> I'll second Jay's suggestion that sealed AGM batteries are the best  
> choice in this circumstance. Presumably this is a grid backup system 
> so the poor endurance of AGMs for cycling applications shouldn't be an 
> issue. If you use a Zephyr power vent horizontal runs shouldn't be 
> problem, but what happens when the power vent fails?
> It will fail. I've seen the bearings wear out on one and another that 
> failed when insects got into the blades and gummed it up to the point 
> that the motor stalled.
> 
> Kent Osterberg
> Blue Mountain Solar, Inc.
> www.bluemountainsolar.com
> t: 541-568-4882
> 
> 
> On 12/31/2011 6:59 AM, JRQ wrote:
> > Wrenches,
> >
> > I'm looking at a potential battery backup system wtih a 200 AH @48V 
> > flooded battery bank in the basement electrical room of a 3 story 
> > building.
> > There is a window in the electrical room. The batteries will be 
> > located about 10' from an outdoor wall. The building is all 
> > reinforced concrete, so I can not run a vent pipe vertically from 
> > the  batteries. Does anyone have a rule of thumb for how much the 
> > vent pipes can be angled from the batteries? Would it be more 
> > lenient for short sections of pipe (say <2') versus one long angled 
> > piece from the batteries? My instinct would be to keep the pipe no 
> > more than 45? from plumb.
> >
> > Or with bending the vent pipe: does anyone have a best-practice rule 
> > for the sum of the angles of bends?
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Jeffrey Quackenbush
> > NABCEP Certified PV Installer
> > Peripatetic Solar Technician

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Lis

Re: [RE-wrenches] battery venting

[bob ellison]

I would suggest the best gear for the situation and just refuse to use the 
substandard stuff, if you can. It’s not worth a fire or worse. 

I have lost jobs for not letting the customer spec gear for me, I get over it.

I either do it right or not at all.

 

Later,

Bob Ellison

 

 

From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org 
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of JRQ
Sent: Saturday, December 31, 2011 1:47 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: [RE-wrenches] battery venting

 

I am doing this project in India. The cost structures here are a great deal 
more constrained that what we're used to. Using AGM batteries is going to be a 
deal-breaker with the client as far as cost. 

 

I also don't know if I can persuade the client to ship anything additional from 
the US. We pay more for electrical stuff, and then shipping adds quite a bit 
more on top. I've sold them on the idea of an Outback GTFX inverter on the 
basis of its functionality in a backup setup, but, for instance, I'm having a 
hard time convincing them that an E-Panel and a listed combiner box are a good 
idea, rather than just cobbling the BOS enclosures together from locally 
available breakers and PVC j-boxes. I also may end going with a indian-made PWM 
CC rather than a FM60. The quality of electrical work here is abysmal. I'm not 
sure if I can successfully make an argument on the grounds of somewhat 
contingent safety concerns, or even less on engineering standards.

 

So I'm wondering: are there parameters that constrain the bending of a venting 
pipe and the maximum angle from plumb that the pipe should take? And does the 
pipe diameter play a role in those parameters?

 

Jeffrey Quackenbush

NABCEP Certified PV Installer

Peripatetic Solar Technician

 

  _  

From: Allan Sindelar 
To: re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org 
Sent: Saturday, December 31, 2011 8:42 PM
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] battery venting

Jeff,
I would use a Power Vent by Zephyr Industries. In addition to a 12V or 48V fan, 
his units have a built-in backdraft damper. Negative building pressure under 
certain conditions would be a concern of mine, so I wouldn't rely on angle to 
ensure exhaust always travels up and out.
Allan

Allan Sindelar
 <mailto:al...@positiveenergysolar.com> al...@positiveenergysolar.com
NABCEP Certified Photovoltaic Installer
NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional
New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician
Positive Energy, Inc.
3201 Calle Marie
Santa Fe, New Mexico 87507
505 424-1112
www.positiveenergysolar.com <http://www.positiveenergysolar.com/>  

 

 


On 12/31/2011 7:59 AM, JRQ wrote: 

Wrenches,

 

I'm looking at a potential battery backup system wtih a 200 AH @48V flooded 
battery bank in the basement electrical room of a 3 story building. There is a 
window in the electrical room. The batteries will be located about 10' from an 
outdoor wall. The building is all reinforced concrete, so I can not run a vent 
pipe vertically from the batteries. Does anyone have a rule of thumb for how 
much the vent pipes can be angled from the batteries? Would it be more lenient 
for short sections of pipe (say <2') versus one long angled piece from the 
batteries? My instinct would be to keep the pipe no more than 45˚ from plumb.

 

Or with bending the vent pipe: does anyone have a best-practice rule for the 
sum of the angles of bends?

 

Thanks,

Jeffrey Quackenbush

NABCEP Certified PV Installer

Peripatetic Solar Technician

 

  _  

From: Drake  <mailto:drake.chamber...@redwoodalliance.org> 

To: re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org 
Sent: Saturday, December 31, 2011 8:08 PM
Subject: [RE-wrenches] Pole Mount PVC

Hello Wrenches,

With pole mount systems, It looks cleaner and is safer to run the PVC conduit 
down the pole into the concrete, and use a 90 degree elbow to come out through 
the side of the anchor underground.  This way, the pipe is protected from 
mechanical damage, and there is nothing to trip over when adjusting the array 
for seasonal tilt.  

I was told that some building departments will not allow this.  Has anyone had 
a problem with using this method, either technical or legal?   How do you like 
to route your conduits?

Thank you,

Drake 

Drake Chamberlin  
ATHENS ELECTRIC LLC
OH License 44810 
CO license 3773
NABCEP Certified PV


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Re: [RE-wrenches] battery venting

[bob ellison]

Sorry to add to the message with more thoughts. It will not get sent till I
get a connection tomorrow. I was sitting in a C store parking lot
downloading 36 meg of e mail when I did the initial answer. 
I am so far back in the woods that if the pump breaks we don't get daylight!

The powervents don't flow a lot and seem to fail too often.

I know one dealer who swears by the "Rule" bilge vents for boats. They are
high flow and brushless, designed to pump fumes from boat bilges. So I
gather that they are safe in this use. I have not used them yet.

In small boxes I use a radio shack brushless fan that will run off the
Classic relay. Start it early (I use 26.5 or so volts) and let it shut off
late. That helps to get the gasses all out. 
Plan your vents to help draw the fresh air in around the batteries, don't
use just 1 or 2 vent holes, or put them all in 1 side of the box.

Happy New Year,
Bob Ellison




Message-
From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Richard L
Ratico
Sent: Saturday, December 31, 2011 2:47 PM
To: re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] battery venting

Huh??? I'm probably missiing something here. What happens when the powervent
fails???
I replace it with another, the same thing I do when other equipment in our
whiz bang industry fails. 

The difference with the powervent is that it is easy and relatively
inexpensive.
I've also had good luck using screens on the vent inlet and outlets, per the
instuctions, albeit a high tech solution.  :-)

Seems inverters, charge controllers, batteries, DC breakers, even modules
fail more frequenty.
Rant off.

Dick Ratico
Solarwind Electric



--- You wrote:
Jeffrey,

I'll second Jay's suggestion that sealed AGM batteries are the best choice
in this circumstance. Presumably this is a grid backup system so the poor
endurance of AGMs for cycling applications shouldn't be an issue. If you use
a Zephyr power vent horizontal runs shouldn't be problem, but what happens
when the power vent fails? It will fail. I've seen the bearings wear out on
one and another that failed when insects got into the blades and gummed it
up to the point that the motor stalled.

Kent Osterberg
Blue Mountain Solar, Inc.
www.bluemountainsolar.com
t: 541-568-4882


On 12/31/2011 6:59 AM, JRQ wrote:
> Wrenches,
>
> I'm looking at a potential battery backup system wtih a 200 AH @48V 
> flooded battery bank in the basement electrical room of a 3 story 
> building. There is a window in the electrical room. The batteries will 
> be located about 10' from an outdoor wall. The building is all 
> reinforced concrete, so I can not run a vent pipe vertically from the 
> batteries. Does anyone have a rule of thumb for how much the vent 
> pipes can be angled from the batteries? Would it be more lenient for 
> short sections of pipe (say <2') versus one long angled piece from the 
> batteries? My instinct would be to keep the pipe no more than 45? from 
> plumb.
>
> Or with bending the vent pipe: does anyone have a best-practice rule 
> for the sum of the angles of bends?
>
> Thanks,
> Jeffrey Quackenbush
> NABCEP Certified PV Installer
> Peripatetic Solar Technician
--- end of quote ---
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Re: [RE-wrenches] battery venting; Corrosion

[bob ellison]

I have had great luck by heating Vaseline to the hot liquid state then brush
it on all the exposed lead and I dip the cable ends also. 
Doing this I have had 1 terminal that got corroded out of several hundreds.

That gets you a thin coat and lasts for years.
"Clean and tight" is nice but it gets corroded at some point, and I hate
cleaning 1 terminal or 20!

Later,
Bob Ellison


-Original Message-
From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Larry
Crutcher, Starlight Solar Power Systems
Sent: Thursday, January 05, 2012 10:37 AM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] battery venting; Corrosion

Almost all RV's have a small, poorly vented battery box with 4 GC2
batteries. We see corrosion all the time. When we replace batteries, we use
zinc coated copper terminals and apply a thin layer of grease with a
toothbrush to every exposed portion of the connectors. This simple step,
with the occasional reapplication, keeps all terminals as fresh as the day
installed for many years. I am speaking from experience of hundreds of
installations. 

Larry Crutcher
Starlight Solar Power Systems


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Re: [RE-wrenches] Request for Gennie Recommendation

[bob ellison]

I am a reformed Honda Engine dealer, last that I knew Honda built NO engines
to run on propane. 

It seems that after 400 or so hours they had a bad habit of dropping a valve
from lack of lubrication (or so I ASSume) to the valve train I have seen 3
or 4 engines do that, and I have only seen 4 or 5 Honda engines with propane
conversions.   

There are companies that do the conversions and just handle the warranty on
their own.

 

Just another opinion,

Bob Ellison

 

From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Drake
Sent: Monday, January 16, 2012 6:50 PM
To: al...@positiveenergysolar.com; RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Request for Gennie Recommendation

 

I'm installing a small off grid system that has an existing generator.  It
is a Honda EU 6500 converted to run on propane.  It is sweet.  I haven't
found out yet if the conversion cancelled the warranty.  

This would be too small for Allen's current project, but it seems like a
good solution for many systems. 




Drake Chamberlin 
ATHENS ELECTRIC LLC
OH License 44810
CO license 3773
NABCEP Certified PV

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[RE-wrenches] Makita generator question

[bob ellison]

Does anyone know who built the alternator on the Makita generator model
5711?

Seems to be a brushless unit and its power quality has gotten bad after
someone flipped the series / parallel switch for a few seconds while it was
running.

There is a t-240 on the line so it was the equivalent of a dead short.

Needless to say things did not go well after that.

 

The factory has sent me all the manuals, the engine manual is great but the
problem is the alternator and the manufacturer has nothing on it, not a
thing.

 

 

Thanks,

Bob Ellison

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Request for Gennie Recommendation

[bob ellison]

No I am not disillusioned at all, they make the best small engines I have
ever used. That said as with most things you get what you pay for.

They may have changed things to work better with propane. I know there is a
CHP 

unit being made in Utica NY, that uses a small Honda on Natural Gas to
combine heat output and power in houses.

 

Bob Ellison

 

 

 

 

From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Drake
Sent: Tuesday, January 17, 2012 9:19 AM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Request for Gennie Recommendation

 


Bob,

Thanks for the heads up.  Dropping valves sounds alarming.  This one likely
has its 400 hours, as the crew that is working on the house runs it all day
to operate tools and space heat. Maybe like the man falling out of a 40
story building was heard to say, passing the 20th floor, so far so good!

Are you disillusioned with Honda?  If so, why? 

Thanks,

Drake   

At 08:23 PM 1/16/2012, you wrote:



Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
 boundary="=_NextPart_000_00FE_01CCD48C.B6F43770"
Content-Language: en-us

I am a reformed Honda Engine dealer, last that I knew Honda built NO engines
to run on propane. 
It seems that after 400 or so hours they had a bad habit of dropping a valve
from lack of lubrication (or so I ASSume) to the valve train I have seen 3
or 4 engines do that, and I have only seen 4 or 5 Honda engines with propane
conversions.   
There are companies that do the conversions and just handle the warranty on
their own.
 
Just another opinion,
Bob Ellison
 
From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [
mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
<mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org> ] On Behalf Of Drake
Sent: Monday, January 16, 2012 6:50 PM
To: al...@positiveenergysolar.com; RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Request for Gennie Recommendation
 
I'm installing a small off grid system that has an existing generator.  It
is a Honda EU 6500 converted to run on propane.  It is sweet.  I haven't
found out yet if the conversion cancelled the warranty.  

This would be too small for Allen's current project, but it seems like a
good solution for many systems. 


Drake Chamberlin 
ATHENS ELECTRIC LLC
OH License 44810
CO license 3773
NABCEP Certified PV
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Drake Chamberlin 
ATHENS ELECTRIC LLC
OH License 44810
CO license 3773
NABCEP Certified PV

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Re: [RE-wrenches] battery buss bars

[bob ellison]

Am I safe to assume you are looking for buss bars to connect the batteries?
I get the copper stock and custom drill them to match the install.
If you are connecting the batteries together use good heat shrink (glue
filled) between the connections.

Bob Ellison

-Original Message-
From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of R Ray
Walters
Sent: Tuesday, January 17, 2012 12:23 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] battery buss bars

Midnite has a new one:
http://www.midnitesolar.com/productPhoto.php?product_ID=207&productCatName=B
usbars&productCat_ID=17

Here's a new one I just found with Del City also:
http://www.delcity.net/cartviewitem?item=80510DL&search=buss+bar
or
http://www.delcity.net/cartviewitem?item=80006DL&search=distribution+block

I've used the Ilsco insulated distribution blocks available at electrical
supply houses.

I've also made them out of 1/4" x 2" copper, and then used some weird way to
isolate it, or bolted them to the breaker.

R. Walters
r...@solarray.com
Solar Engineer




On Jan 17, 2012, at 9:43 AM, jay peltz wrote:

> Hi All,
> 
> Where do I find buss bars for a battery parallel problem?
> 
> I've got to fix a brand new ( not me) system, that has 4 sets of L-16's at
24v.
> Yea yea why didn't they go to 48?
> 
> So I want to use buss bars to parallel them, and looking for premade ones.
> 
> Thanks in advance,
> 
> Jay
> 
> Peltz power
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Re: [RE-wrenches] 24 vs. 48

[bob ellison]

It only looks like a higher current, the actual power into the bank is the
same.
100 amps @ 12 volt is the same as 50 amps @ 24 volts and 25 amps @ 48 volts.

Bob Ellison

-Original Message-
From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Mark Frye
Sent: Tuesday, January 17, 2012 12:20 PM
To: 'RE-wrenches'
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] 24 vs. 48

OK,

But let's assume only one string, how important is it to develop a higher
bulk charge current?
 
Mark Frye
Berkeley Solar Electric Systems
303 Redbud Way
Nevada City,  CA 95959
(530) 401-8024
www.berkeleysolar.com 

-Original Message-
From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Kent
Osterberg
Sent: Tuesday, January 17, 2012 9:16 AM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] 24 vs. 48

Mark,

A 24-volt inverter may produce twice as much charging current as a 48-volt
inverter with the same power rating, but if you are putting batteries in
parallel, the individual batteries get the same charging current either way.
In the case of four parallel strings of four L16 batteries, a 100-amp
24-volt charge puts about 25 amps (if you are careful with the wiring and
the batteries aren't sulfated) into each string of batteries. A 50-amp
48-volt charger would accomplish the same thing.

Kent Osterberg
Blue Mountain Solar, Inc.
www.bluemountainsolar.com
t: 541-568-4882

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Re: [RE-wrenches] 24 vs. 48

[bob ellison]

The XL-1 problem is cured with the Classic.

Bob

-Original Message-
From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of R Ray
Walters
Sent: Tuesday, January 17, 2012 1:38 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] 24 vs. 48

The only advantages of 24 v are that you can create smaller KWH battery
banks, and that Bergey's XL.1 was only available in 24 v.
Anytime the design allows, I jump to 48 v.

R. Walters
r...@solarray.com
Solar Engineer




On Jan 17, 2012, at 11:11 AM, Nathan Jones wrote:

> 
> 
> Mark,
> It would seem to be a wash. As the voltage is halved the amperage is
doubled in the battery bank. This would seem to require doubling the
charging amperage so nothing is gained. On a system of any size the 48 volt
gets the default nod here. Charge controllers handle twice the solar.
Parallel battery strings are eliminated, or at least held to two. Wire
sizing might be reduced on the low voltage side of things. And much easier
future expansion possibilities, too.
> Cheers,
> Nathan Jones
> Power Source Solar Inc
> 
> 
> --
> On Tue, Jan 17, 2012 10:56 AM CST Mark Frye wrote:
> 
>> Not really on topic to Jay's question, but...
>> 
>> Is 48v always better than 24v?
>> 
>> How important is bulk charging current to overall battery life?
>> 
>> In some cases, isn't it better to use a 24v inverter/charger which 
>> can develop a higher charge current for a battery bank that has a 
>> higher AH rating?
>> 
>> Mark Frye
>> Berkeley Solar Electric Systems
>> 303 Redbud Way
>> Nevada City,  CA 95959
>> (530) 401-8024
>> www.berkeleysolar.com
>> 
>> -Original Message-
>> From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
>> [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of jay 
>> peltz
>> Sent: Tuesday, January 17, 2012 8:43 AM
>> To: RE-wrenches
>> Subject: [RE-wrenches] battery buss bars
>> 
>> Hi All,
>> 
>> Where do I find buss bars for a battery parallel problem?
>> 
>> I've got to fix a brand new ( not me) system, that has 4 sets of 
>> L-16's at 24v.
>> Yea yea why didn't they go to 48?
>> 
>> So I want to use buss bars to parallel them, and looking for premade
ones.
>> 
>> Thanks in advance,
>> 
>> Jay
>> 
>> Peltz power
>> 
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Burning up brushes

[bob ellison]

Is the wear all on 1 brush or are both wearing the same?

Are the slip rings smooth as glass?

 

Later,

Bob Ellison 

 

From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of mac Lewis
Sent: Tuesday, January 17, 2012 3:51 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: [RE-wrenches] Burning up brushes

 

Hello Wrenches,

 

I have a customer that has gone through 3 sets of brushes in the past month
on a Kohler 14kW RES.  Luckily for us, we did not supply this generator.
Does anyone have any experience with a generator burning through brushes
like this?  If so, what was wrong?  The generator guy is out for a few weeks
so I'd like to help them out if I can.

 

Thanks in advance.


 

-- 

 

 

 

Mac Lewis

"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates

 

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Battery Off Gassing and CO Detectors

[bob ellison]

I would think that locating a CO detector on the ceiling of the room with
the battery bank would be enough to do it. You just would not know if it was
the battery bank or CO from another source. Your (or their) nose can do that
part of the job!

 

Bob Ellison 

 

From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Rich Nicol
Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2012 9:40 PM
To: 'RE-wrenches'
Subject: [RE-wrenches] Battery Off Gassing and CO Detectors

 

Wrenches

I understand that battery gassing of Hydrogen Sulfide can set off CO
detectors.  A new customer who I am about to replace a large battery bank
for had his furnace tech on site today to check for proper operation of the
furnace since his CO detector was going off, the tech found the high levels
of CO were coming from the battery bank. I recognize its not actually CO but
rather it's hydrogen sulfide since his generator had recently been running
to charge the batteries and I assume that the detector couldn't
differentiate the Hydrogen Sulfide from the carbon monoxide. Does anyone
have any insight into the mechanism that CO detectors use to detect the gas
and secondly could they be used reliably to detect battery gassing that
isn't being evacuated from the battery enclosure such as when a power vent
fails? Maybe a CO detector could be located near enough to the vent hole in
the Zephyr fan to detect high levels of Hydrogen Sulfide that aren't being
pushed out when the fan fails to operate and open its damper? Power vent
failure is a fear that a number of customers have expressed, maybe this
could be  a method of alerting the homeowner that there is an issue.

Thanks

Rich

 

 

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Interstate L-16 vs Trojan L-16REB

[bob ellison]

I have had horrible experience with Interstate L-16's both the standard and
the HC versions.
When you have several installs that get 10+ years from the standard Trojan
L-16's and you install (or they replace them with) Interstate's and some
Deka's and they fail in 3 or so years, it says something. 
I see no reason that the customers would suddenly change their maintenance
habits after years of doing it right!

This also happened with a replacement set that I had.

I have to blame the batteries,
Bob Ellison

-Original Message-
From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Ray Walters
Sent: Wednesday, February 15, 2012 12:02 AM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Interstate L-16 vs Trojan L-16REB

No, both golf cart batteries and industrial cells get more cycle life per $.

Ray

On 2/14/2012 1:18 PM, William Miller wrote:
> Colleagues:
>
> Do any of you have experience with Interstate L-16 batteries?  Are 
> they a good value?
>
> Thanks in advance,
>
> William Miller
>

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Re: [RE-wrenches] non-vertigo safety sun-glasses

[bob ellison]

Try Deluth Trading, they have rated "cheater" safety sun glasses if you need
a boost. For those unfamiliar they are glasses like readers for those of us
whose eyes are not what they were 20 - 30 years ago. They even have a "fat
head" version!

http://www.duluthtrading.com/search/searchresults/sitesearchresults.aspx?pg=
1

&p_keyword=cheater+glasses&p_origin=mens-glasses-mens-eyewear&processor=cont
ent 

 

Hopefully the link works.

 

Later,

Bob

 

 

From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Theo Van
Sent: Saturday, March 03, 2012 8:21 PM
To: Nick Vida; RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] non-vertigo safety sun-glasses

 


Nick,
Try these. They're rated, block UV, don't trigger my vertigo, fit well and
the price is right so I don't feel bad when they don't use the ladder.
http://www.stihlusa.com/apparel/pro-pack-glasses.html

--- On Sat, 3/3/12, Nick Vida  wrote:


From: Nick Vida 
Subject: [RE-wrenches] non-vertigo safety sun-glasses
To: "wrenches" 
Date: Saturday, March 3, 2012, 2:45 PM

Hi wrenches,

 

I am having the hardest time finding rated safety glasses that don't cause
vertigo when you get tired. Most of them are curved, and I find that it
distorts your vision a bit, and hits you like crazy when you start getting
on toward exhausted. Anyone have any luck finding a reasonable brand you
actually wear that doesn't make you dizzy?

 

Nick Vida

 

 


-Inline Attachment Follows-

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[RE-wrenches] FW: Hot Trojan Batteries

[bob ellison]

I have seen this happen in an 80 volt single string of 85 – 17’s.

They got hot enough to melt the cell covers into the cell structures a couple 
inches.

It was a mess. This was at the same time that the replacement packs were 
damaged in shipment by something falling on them and smashing a cell top. The 
factory insisted on returning the entire cases to the factory to replace the 
cell instead of sending a couple cells and having me replace them. 

 

This is the closest that I have seen a bank to catching fine in 20+ years of 
doing this type of stuff….

 

Bob Ellison

 

From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org 
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Drake
Sent: Friday, April 13, 2012 9:41 AM
To: Darryl Thayer; RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Hot Trojan Batteries

 

I've seen batteries get very hot from deficit charging, where batteries are 
cycled rapidly and never fully charged. 


At 10:15 PM 4/12/2012, you wrote:



I have seen very hot batteries infact batteries that melted.  and caught fire.  
the problem was that the string was several strings in parallel, and one of the 
strings had thermal runaway.  during charge one battery got hot, and it has 
lower voltage and gets more current. then it get hotter because of the more 
curent. soon it is so hot the other batteries start to discharge through the 
hot battery.  
 
A similar event will occur when one battery in a string of batteries develops a 
bad cell, and the othe batteries in parallel strings will force current 
backwards through the cell.  and thermal runaway occcurs in the hot battery.  

From: Jason Szumlanski 
To: RE-wrenches  
Sent: Monday, April 2, 2012 11:53 AM
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Hot Trojan Batteries

There must be some confusion here about the charging rate. C/20 refers to 
capacity divided by 20, so in the case of a 325aH battery (capacity @ the 20 
hour discharge rate) we’re talking about charging at a 16.25 amp rate. I’m 
sure John is not referring to a maximum rate of 10-15% of 16.25 amps, but 
10-15% of the 325aH capacity.
 
Jason Szumlanski
Fafco Solar
 
 
From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [ 
mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org 
<mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org> ] On Behalf Of John DeBoever
Sent: Monday, April 02, 2012 12:14 PM
To: allso...@scswifi.net; RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Hot Trojan Batteries
 
Jeremy, Wrenches,
 
165°F is definitely too high and you should stop immediately any charge to 
avoid further major problems. I recommend you contact our Trojan Tech Support 
for help at 
http://www.trojanbatteryre.com/Tech_Support/Tech_Support.html?tab=0#TabbedPanels1#top
 
<http://www.trojanbatteryre.com/Tech_Support/Tech_Support.html?tab=0#TabbedPanels1top>
  
 
Below are few perspectives to help the diagnostic:
 
o   System issues: 
ü  Check Charger setting: the C/20 rate mentioned is definitely too high and 
will damage the battery. The maximum recommended current rate is 10-15% of C/20 
for a deep-cycle flooded lead acid battery. Other C/rates are possible but are 
application specific and not typical.
ü  Check Voltage settings: these are provided on Trojan datasheets, see here: 
http://www.trojanbatteryre.com/Tech_Support/literature.html 
ü  Check Temperature compensation: -0.028VPC for every 10°F above 77°F (add 
0.028 VPC for every 10°F below 77°F or subtract 0.020VPC for every 10°F 
above 77°F. See here: 
http://www.trojanbatteryre.com/PDF/Signature_Trojan_ProductLineSheet.pdf 
ü  Check Voltage sensor status and connection. Dedicated wiring is recommended
ü  Check temperature sensor. It shall be well positioned, typically in the 
middle of the battery bank at the warmest point.
ü  Check if air circulation between the battery units. 
ü  Check if adequate air ventilation of the battery room.
 
o   Battery issues:
ü  C/20 charging rate is too high (see above)
ü  How old are the batteries? Ageing batteries will face micro-shorts that 
will decrease the battery turnaround efficiency over time that translates in 
higher temperature generation. Typically the battery temperature range is about 
20oF above ambient temperature, and typical min and max limit are -4°F to 
113°F. 
See here: 
http://www.trojanbatteryre.com/PDF/Signature_Trojan_ProductLineSheet.pdf 
165°F is way too high and will damage the units
ü  Maybe you are facing one or more shorted units: check the voltage and it 
will quickly indicate if a unit is shorted.  Shorted units will generate heat 
and will jeopardize the charging of other units. Remove shorted units and 
consult tech support your charger supplier if possible to reconfigure of your 
battery bank with fewer units, configured at a lower battery bank voltage, 
using same voltage settings recommended by Trojan Battery Company.  Typically 1 
to 3 units less would be acceptable, depending the charger manufacturer 
settings.
ü  Maybe you are facing sulfated bat

Re: [RE-wrenches] Trace Change out

[bob ellison]

I have customers that have Magnum 4024 running well pumps on the far side of
a transformer with no problem. It helps to put the transformer between the
pressure switch and the pump, that way the transformer isn't sucking power
all the time. I am not sure if any of them are 1 hp pumps, I just don't
remember, but some of them were 20 years ago so I will claim senility. 

I am assuming that he has enough battery bank to handle the pump?

Why such a large pump, is the well extremely deep or a lot of water loads at
the same time and he needs the flow?

I generally install a much larger pressure tank to keep the pump from
frequently cycling and all seems to go well.

 

We are lucky in this area that we don't generally have to go real deep to
get water.

The SW series are still rebuild able, last fall we had to have 2 redone.

 

Later,

Bob Ellison

 

From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of frenergy
Sent: Saturday, April 14, 2012 9:21 PM
To: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
Subject: [RE-wrenches] Trace Change out

 

Wrenches,

 

I have a customer that may be having some issues with the
reliability of his 11 year old Trace4024.  If my current fix doesn't solve
the problem, I have suggested having the unit fixed, which I think still
happens on these puppies. I have also suggested replacing it with either an
Outback 3524 or a Magnum MS 4024.  He is now running a 1 HP Submersible pump
ala autoformer along with the usual array of  house loads.

 

The issue is the inverter accepting and then rejecting the generator
power, which I have been watching recent comments here regarding this issue.
I have not thoroughly checked out pump wiring (was apparently already done
by the well/pump guy, whom is reputable), but have checked the output of the
Kohler 8.5 genny and Hz and voltage appear stable with and without load.  So
far I've gone the route of programming in a few less amps on the "battery
charging" and "AC2 IN" functions.   The inverter seems to be happy with new
settings, this new programming was just done a few hours ago.

 

So this may be a more generic question for those with more
experience than I: Are both the OB and Magnum inverters considered equally
capable of replacing the Trace? I guess I'm thinking mainly of that pump,
but are there other considerations?

 

Thanks Folks

 

Bill

Feather River Solar Electric
4291 Nelson St.
Taylorsville, CA  95983
530-284-7849/6544 fax

solar powered since 1982

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Boxes and bags

[bob ellison]

I have used tool bags from Sears for years, graduating to bigger each time.
At the present time I have switched to the one with the rubber bottom, it's
big and will not soak up moisture when it gets set in a puddle or whatever.

Bob

-Original Message-
From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Hilton Dier
III
Sent: Monday, April 23, 2012 3:00 PM
To: re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
Subject: [RE-wrenches] Boxes and bags

Here's an everyday, practical question for my fellow wrenches: What kind of
bag or box do you use for your everyday assortment of tools?

For years I have been carrying my cutters, stripper, screwdrivers,
multimeter, etc., in an aluminum suitcase about the size of a double
thickness briefcase. I call it my 90% box because it carries 90% of the
tools I use regularly. It has loops and pockets inside the lid for pliers,
cutters, and screwdrivers. It has a partition system in the rest with an
internal lid. I think it was billed as an office equipment repairman's case.
The problem is that the hinges are broken and the partitions have
deteriorated to uselessness. I need a new case. This one wasn't ideal, so
I'm looking for suggestions.

Thanks,

Hilton

-- 
Hilton Dier III
Renewable Energy Design
Partner, Solar Gain LLC
453 East Hill Rd.
Middlesex, VT 05602

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Skystream supplier

[bob ellison]

Are you still selling the short towers? I guess that's answered..

That hurts small wind as much as the bozo installers.

 

Just my .02 worth,

Bob Ellison

 

From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Ross Taylor
Sent: Friday, April 27, 2012 1:30 PM
To: re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
Subject: [RE-wrenches] Skystream supplier

 

Hi Howie,

 

Southwest Windpower changed their sales channels and policies about two
years ago, to address and hopefully correct the many issues we'd seen with
improperly trained installers (or homeowners or "self designated" dealers)
and the resulting poor installations.   So, Skystreams are no longer
available through any internet sales channels nor will the distributors sell
to anyone who's not a currently trained and authorized dealer/installer.  I
hope you understand the intent of this - it's to promote better quality
installations.  But, that means that you may not find the source you're
looking for.

 

On a related side note, because of problems we've experienced with improper
towers and even some failures of unapproved towers, Southwest Windpower only
sells the Skystream as a system with a tower.  There are exceptions, in
cases where there's a need for a tower we don't offer (say, more than
70-feet tall), but those have to be approved.  I don't know the
qualifications of your sister and brother-in-law, or the design of their
tower, but we are trying to avoid installations on home-built towers because
of the inherent risk and (often) lack of proper engineering review/analysis.
So, again, I hate to lose a sale and put a damper on your plans to use a
Skystream there.  But, this sounds like it may be a case where it may not be
a good fit for their plans.

 

Sincerely,

 

Ross

 

 




  <http://www.windenergy.com/_images/email-signature-logo-150x55.gif> 

Ross Taylor 
Training Manager
www.windenergy.com <http://www.windenergy.com/> 

_

Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2012 15:02:31 -0400 (Eas)
From: "Howie Michaelson" 
To: "RE-wrenches" ,  "RE-Markets"
   
Subject: [RE-wrenches] Skystream supplier
Message-ID: <2800.24.240.130.86.1335294151.squir...@mail7.atypica.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1

Anyone care to recommend a Skystream 3.7 distributor?  I'm trying to get
pricing on just a Marine grade turbine (they are building their own tower)
for my sister and brother-in-law who is up near Halifax, NS.  I will
receive in Vermont and they will import themselves.  They are aware of
it's limitations.

Any recommendations for an equivalent turbine (production and price range)
would be appreciated as well.

Thanks,
Howie
--
Howie Michaelson
NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer?

Catamount Solar, LLC
Renewable Energy Systems Sales and Service
VT Solar Electric & Hot Water Incentive Partner
http://www.CatamountSolar.com <http://www.catamountsolar.com/> 
802-272-0004

 

 

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Nickel-Iron Batteries

[bob ellison]

The bigger warning is with the "Chinese" NiFe cells.
There was a company importing them 15-20 years or so ago.
The failure rate was very high and the factory support was almost
nonexistent. Unless you're a tinkerer, they are great cells to stay away
from!

 I know people who use the original Edison cells in power systems and have
seen people just using them as a DC source. 
Don't worry, you can't get the voltage too high when charging them. They
just take it. They don't freeze and if I remember correctly, temp does not
alter the output either. There are plenty of the original Edison Cells still
out there.

Later,
Bob Ellison


-Original Message-
From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Tom Duffy
Sent: Sunday, May 06, 2012 7:54 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Nickel-Iron Batteries

Nickel iron has been around since Edison (Thomas) the cells are 1.2 volt and
use potassium hydroxide as an electrolyte. The problem we had with them 20
or so years ago was that the voltage range is large, too large for
electronics. So the useable range (window) is not that great. I have
actually seen some that the cases were nickel... I can't imagine what that
would cost today.

We concluded that while what you read looks amazing, they're not all that
useful for RE applications using inverters. They might be useful if you're
doing straight DC circuits. But it's a lot of cells.

Kind Regards

Tom Duffy
Senior Solar Design Engineer

Toll Free 888-895-8179
t...@thesolar.biz
For: Customer Service and Accounting 888-895-6810  Grid tie sales
888-895-7847 Off Grid sales 888-895-7765 Other Product Sales 888-895-9612
Shipping and Receiving 888-895-6497 Tech Support 888-895-8179

-Original Message-
From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Phil Theis
Sent: Saturday, May 05, 2012 12:35 PM
To: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
Subject: [RE-wrenches] Nickel-Iron Batteries

Greetings,
Does anyone have experience with Iron Edison Batteries for an off grid
application?
They claim "excellent and reliable performance for 20+ years"
Thank you,
Phil Theis  NABCEP Certified PV Installer PennSun Solar
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Nickel-Iron Batteries

[bob ellison]

Dan,
You are correct, they can get to too high a voltage now. The comment applied
to the olden days before MPPT controllers.
Now they can get too high a voltage because we are running panels at much
higher voltages than we did 15 or so years ago.
Thanks for the correction; I didn't think about the MPPT controllers that
exist now.

Later,
Bob Ellison

-Original Message-
From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Exeltech
Sent: Monday, May 07, 2012 11:19 AM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Nickel-Iron Batteries

Bob is correct in his warning about the Chinese Ni-Fe cells.  As I recall,
they had a translucent white case, but there may have been others .. and as
Bob mentioned, they did indeed have a very high failure rate.

Thanks Bob for remembering this.

Mine are (and were) Edison cells, and were imprinted with the word "Edison"
on the caps and the cell cases.

A quick word of advice ...

You *can* get the charge voltage (and subsequently current) too high in the
sense the cells out-gas hydrogen and oxygen just like lead-acid, and will do
so vigorously when fully charged.  The plates won't warp due to heat as will
lead-acid, but the risk of of an H2 explosion is still very real.  This also
causes the electrolyte to be deposited all over the tops of the cells and
elsewhere.  It's oily and difficult to clean up.


Dan


--- On Mon, 5/7/12, bob ellison  wrote:

> From: bob ellison 
> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Nickel-Iron Batteries
> To: "'RE-wrenches'" 
> Date: Monday, May 7, 2012, 4:38 AM
> 
> The bigger warning is with the "Chinese" NiFe cells.
> 
> There was a company importing them 15-20 years or so ago.
> The failure rate was very high and the factory support was almost 
> nonexistent. Unless you're a tinkerer, they are great cells to stay 
> away from!
> 
> I know people who use the original Edison cells in power systems and 
> have seen people just using them as a DC source.
> Don't worry, you can't get the voltage too high when charging them. 
> They just take it. They don't freeze and if I remember correctly, temp 
> does not alter the output either. There are plenty of the original 
> Edison Cells still out there.
> 
> Later,
> Bob Ellison

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[RE-wrenches] Wrench needed

[bob ellison]

I have a supplier looking for a "Wrench" in the Hammonton, NJ. area for a
grid connect system.

If someone on the list is in that area please reply off list and I will pass
the info on to him.

 

Thanks,

Bob Ellison

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Corrective EQ question

[bob ellison]

It might matter if they are high capacity batteries, some run a stronger
electrolyte to get more out of the batteries, this results in a lower cycle
life. Ie: 350 cycle life v/s 400 cycles.  I have seen factory cells that are
fully charged at 1.315 - 1.325

 

To give them an EQ charge they have to finish the bulk and absorb before
they will go into an eq charge normally the control box may say eq but until
the conditions are met it will not actually happen. Then it can easily take
8 to 10 hours or longer to give them a full eq charge.

Typically they have to drive the voltage to the top of the eq range then
hold it there till the sg in the cells stop increasing.

You usually can't give it 3 hours charge 1 day then 3 the next day. I am
betting the voltage is not getting to the top of the eq range with such a
short charge time. 

I doubt that 3 hours a day will not even get the battery to a full charge,
much less start an equalize charge with them that low to start with,
especially with loads on the battery at the same time.

 

Just my usual .02 worth,

Bob 

 

From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Kent
Osterberg
Sent: Friday, June 01, 2012 11:36 PM
To: al...@positiveenergysolar.com; RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Corrective EQ question

 

Allan,

My first thought about the high s.g. measurements is that the electrolyte
level may have been low when the measurements were made. When full, there is
about a liter of electrolyte above the plates in a L16. The s.g. will rise
by 0.03 if the electrolyte level is at the top of the plates.



Kent Osterberg
Blue Mountain Solar, Inc.
www.bluemountainsolar.com
t: 541-568-4882


On 6/1/2012 1:28 PM, Allan Sindelar wrote: 

Wrenches,
A long-time off grid client has a 48V Outback VFX system, with 1,680 watts
of PV and two strings (16 batteries total) of Deka L16s, installed last
October. The array is undersized, as the system is running three households;
one efficient home and two single-person tiny homes, but still too much for
the system. We learned a few weeks ago that the system had apparently stayed
at 30-50% SOC for the entire winter (this is approximate, as her TriMetric
monitors would eventually drift away from % accuracy if never allowed to get
full and reset). Eventually the batteries became sufficiently sulfated that
the system began shutting down.

As the batteries were nearly new, we figured that the sulfation had not yet
become permanently crystallized, and they could recover. We initiated a long
"corrective equalization" from her combined generator (45A DC from the
single inverter) and MX60 controller, for a maximum C/12.5 charge rate; less
in proportion to any loads that were on while charging. She ran this
procedure for three hours/day for five days, and when that offered only
partial recovery (as measured by specific gravity measured with a
refractometer), ran for six hours/day for five days. During this time the
MX60 was also manually set to EQ each morning, with a 62V EQ voltage and 3
hour EQ time, so that the array would add its amperage to the gennie until
the batteries had been above this setting for three hours.

We went out there yesterday, arriving while the EQ was in process. All of
the cells had recovered, as measured by SG. SG readings were all in the
1.280 - 1.300 range, with most above 1.290. We had never seen SG readings
this high before. Given the situation and the back story, should we have any
concern about the high SG readings?

Thank you,
Allan

-- 
Allan Sindelar
  al...@positiveenergysolar.com
NABCEP Certified Photovoltaic Installer
NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional
New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician
Founder and Chief Technology Officer
Positive Energy, Inc.
3209 Richards Lane (note new address)
Santa Fe, New Mexico 87507
505 424-1112
www.positiveenergysolar.com   

 

 






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Re: [RE-wrenches] Wind Turbines killing birds and bats

[bob ellison]

Drake,

There is nothing to it that is documented and recent. There were some
problems years ago (20 - 30) due to tower design and poor placement.

The towers are a different design and it was never a serious issue in any
case. Years ago the towers were a freestanding design with many places to
perch and look for game to pick off for lunch. Rotor diameter is also
considerably larger and slower now. Something like 20 rpm vs. 200 rpm. I
have watched black birds chase a hawk through the sweeping rotor for 10 -15
minutes, no problems. It might have been the hawk leading the black birds
through the rotor. Either way it was fun and fascinating to watch! I think I
videotaped it but it was years ago and I have no idea where it might be.

My house windows, cat and car get MANY more birds than my turbine ever has.
The cat and car do fairly well, when birds fly into the windows it is loud
and not good for the birds at all. I have never found a dead bird under any
of the turbines that I service.

I did find a dead bird in its nest that was inside a nacelle once, it was
uninjured and just dead, no sign that it was damaged at all. 

 

There is all kinds of misleading stuff like those links out there, it's just
not accurate and done by the anti wind folks.

 

Hope this helps,

Bob Ellison

 

From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Drake
Sent: Thursday, June 21, 2012 6:18 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: [RE-wrenches] Wind Turbines killing birds and bats

 

Hello Wrenches, 

A very knowledgeable friend has concern about wind turbines killing birds
and bats, and sent me these links.  From previous posts on this list and
information I've heard elsewhere, I thought this really wasn't much of an
issue, more of a red herring by those who are opposed to wind energy.

http://www.batsandwind.org/pdf/baerwald%20et%20al%20current%20biology%202008
.pdf 
http://coalicionventanasverraco.org/files/horn_et_al_2008.pdf
http://www.batsandwind.org/main.asp?page=research
<http://www.batsandwind.org/main.asp?page=research&sub=operational>
&sub=operational 
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/09/090928095347.htm

http://www.abcbirds.org/abcprograms/policy/collisions/pdf/wind_rulemaking_pe
tition.pdf 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Environmental_impact_of_wind_power


How much of an issue is this really?  Can we put the danger into
perspective?  Does this kill more bats and birds than the pollution it
displaces?  

Thanks,

Drake 



Drake Chamberlin 
ATHENS ELECTRIC LLC
OH License 44810
CO license 3773
NABCEP Certified PV

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Re: [RE-wrenches] 120V KWH meter wiring

[bob ellison]

Go to www.hialeahmeter.com they have all the diagrams on the web site.

Good day,
Bob Ellison

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=hialeigh%20meter&source=web&cd=1&ved=
0CGkQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.hialeahmeter.com%2F&ei=J3zoT521C4fy0gHVxa3XCQ
&usg=AFQjCNEpmx1HBT_cPUuWmrAmVOSMdh9tiA

-Original Message-
From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Jeremy
Rodriguez- All Solar Inc.
Sent: Monday, June 25, 2012 10:25 AM
To: re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
Subject: [RE-wrenches] 120V KWH meter wiring

Wrenches
Can someone please advise on the proper way to wire a meter to read 120V
inverter output. This is actually for production (RECs) Thanks in advance
Jeremy Rodriguez Sent via BlackBerry. Sorry for typos and shorthand!
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Battery Experience

[bob ellison]

I will put on my flame suit and just say that Trojan seem to outlive the
batteries listed below.

With all things the same, I have on several occasions replaced 10-12 year
old Trojan L-16's with Deka's and the Deka's lasted 3 years in the same
place with exactly the same customers, equipment and assumingly the same
care. 

 

Stick with Trojan's you just do not have to carry them to the battery box so
often.

No real experience with Surrettes but know other dealers who have, some are
hard to get full charged. 

 

I avoid the following in no real order,

 

Interstate

Exide

Dynasty

Deka (I do use their 2 volt cells to build big battery banks with good
results)

Sam's club (from whoever the builder is this year).

Bull Dog, industrial cells, long story. They failed in 6 months in a
Zamboni.

Avoid any Chinese battery.

 

Add any others that come to mind, I just got done with a 2250 mile drive in
2 days and my mind is mush.

 

I can list more but the mind is just not up to it, between the miles and 106
degree temps I'm toast!

 

Later,

Bob Ellison

 

 

 

From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Jonathan
Hill
Sent: Friday, June 29, 2012 9:41 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Battery Experience

 

Over 20 years experience with them says you can't go wring with Trojan!

Jonathan Hill, senior system engineer and founder

 

Sierra Solar Systems

563C Idaho Maryland Road

Grass Valley, CA 95945

Celebrating our 32nd year in solar!

tech info and foreign orders:  (530) 273-6754 

order line: (888) ON-SOLAR (US only)   FAX:  (530) 273-1760

e-mail:  <mailto:solar...@sierrasolar.com>

world wide web:  <http://www.sierrasolar.com>

 <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WY-0UuabPEk> 
Check out our 2 minute video at: 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WY-0UuabPEk





 

On Jun 29, 2012, at 12:42 PM, Dave Palumbo wrote:





We have had less than stellar performance out of the Crown L-16's that we
installed 4 to 5 years ago. Premature failure is my experience. About 60% of
the cycle life compared to Trojan L-16's and also Surrette/Rolls. I've been
using those since 1985.

 

Back to using Trojan. Specifically RE-B's either L-16, or T-105. And have
used Trojan Industrial IND 13-6V on one system with good success with
another set ordered.

 

Dave

 

From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of SunHarvest
Sent: Friday, June 29, 2012 11:56 AM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Battery Experience

 

Just got talked into buying Crown (395Ah@20Hr) as my local rep, "the battery
expert", was persuasive in his testimony to their reliability. Should've
consulted wrenches first.

 

Should I be worried??

 

Eric Stikes
SunHarvest Solar
+1 (530) 798 - 3738
www.harvesthesun.com

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Battery Experience

[bob ellison]

No experience with the Hup cells.

I avoid all of the HC batteries in power systems because they generally have
a stronger electrolyte and a shorter cycle life. Something like between 350
cycles v/s 400 cycles for the standard L-16's.

I have a big set installed that fully charged is between 1.315 and 1.325 SG.
That's what the school district wanted for the unit. Had to get a special
hydrometer to read them.

 

Later,

Bob 

 

From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Jeff
Wongstrom
Sent: Sunday, July 01, 2012 5:55 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Battery Experience

 

I have had bad luck with Trojan batteries that were installed 3-5 years ago
having had several premature L16 failures.  Some of the batteries had one
cell fail within 1-2 years.  Most of the batteries were well cared for and
most were the HC model.  Prior to the HC model I had good luck with Trojan
batteries sometimes seeing 10-12 year life spans.  Maybe the RE-B are a
better battery than the HC  but I am eager to try a different manufacturer.


 

I have had good luck with Solar One batteries but they are a hard sell.

 

Jeff

 

 


Jeff Wongstrom

NABCEP Certified

406.291.3416

Check out the new website:

www.thirstylakesolar.com

 

 






 

On Jul 1, 2012, at 3:29 PM, bob ellison wrote:





I will put on my flame suit and just say that Trojan seem to outlive the
batteries listed below.

With all things the same, I have on several occasions replaced 10-12 year
old Trojan L-16's with Deka's and the Deka's lasted 3 years in the same
place with exactly the same customers, equipment and assumingly the same
care.

 

Stick with Trojan's you just do not have to carry them to the battery box so
often.

No real experience with Surrettes but know other dealers who have, some are
hard to get full charged.

 

I avoid the following in no real order,

 

Interstate

Exide

Dynasty

Deka (I do use their 2 volt cells to build big battery banks with good
results)

Sam's club (from whoever the builder is this year).

Bull Dog, industrial cells, long story. They failed in 6 months in a
Zamboni.

Avoid any Chinese battery.

 

Add any others that come to mind, I just got done with a 2250 mile drive in
2 days and my mind is mush.

 

I can list more but the mind is just not up to it, between the miles and 106
degree temps I'm toast!

 

Later,

Bob Ellison

 

 

 

From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Jonathan
Hill
Sent: Friday, June 29, 2012 9:41 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Battery Experience

 

Over 20 years experience with them says you can't go wring with Trojan!

Jonathan Hill, senior system engineer and founder

 

Sierra Solar Systems

563C Idaho Maryland Road

Grass Valley, CA 95945

Celebrating our 32nd year in solar!

tech info and foreign orders:  (530) 273-6754 

order line: (888) ON-SOLAR (US only)   FAX:  (530) 273-1760

e-mail:  <mailto:solar...@sierrasolar.com>

world wide web:  <http://www.sierrasolar.com>

 <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WY-0UuabPEk> 
Check out our 2 minute video at: 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WY-0UuabPEk






 

On Jun 29, 2012, at 12:42 PM, Dave Palumbo wrote:






We have had less than stellar performance out of the Crown L-16's that we
installed 4 to 5 years ago. Premature failure is my experience. About 60% of
the cycle life compared to Trojan L-16's and also Surrette/Rolls. I've been
using those since 1985.

 

Back to using Trojan. Specifically RE-B's either L-16, or T-105. And have
used Trojan Industrial IND 13-6V on one system with good success with
another set ordered.

 

Dave

 

From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of SunHarvest
Sent: Friday, June 29, 2012 11:56 AM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Battery Experience

 

Just got talked into buying Crown (395Ah@20Hr) as my local rep, "the battery
expert", was persuasive in his testimony to their reliability. Should've
consulted wrenches first.

 

Should I be worried??

 

Eric Stikes
SunHarvest Solar
+1 (530) 798 - 3738
www.harvesthesun.com

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Outdoor woodstove/furnace and solar

[bob ellison]

Been there on 2 occasions, the pumps may seem like small loads but there are
usually many of them that (at least in this area) add up to a heck of a load
for anything but a huge off grid system.
Don't worry the problems that result will all be the power systems and/or
the system installers fault.

It all boils down to the furnace installer and he thinks they are
electrically efficient. Add all of the loads up including the ones that run
24/7. On grid they're great, lots of small loads if off grid.

Also many of the units are really junk, be careful.

Later,
Bob



-Original Message-
From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Ron @
earthRight Solar
Sent: Wednesday, July 04, 2012 7:49 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outdoor woodstove/furnace and solar

Hi Wrenches,

Have a client who wants to install an outdoor wood furnace for hydronic
heating in his shop and home. Wondering if any have had experience with
these. It seems like an intensive off-grid load because of fans and/or
pumps. Any experience or model recommendations is appreciated, thanks!

Ron Young
earthRight - Solareagle
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Magnum Energy Remote Control

[bob ellison]

I just either get the entire system (remote, BMK) installed or I just don't
do it. 

It may sound counterproductive but 60-80% of the time I get a call fairly
soon when they catch on that it's all or nothing.

They are happier in the long run and I can get intelligent answers when they
call. 

 

Except the guy that just called and said the BMK was showing "0" battery
remaining. I went over and stuck a cell with a hydrometer and guess what? 

11.25 SG, guess it was right. Battery voltage was 48.6 with 6 panels adding
to the confusion. Big new battery bank does not mean that you do not need to
charge it occasionally.

 

Bob Ellison 

 

From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Dan Fink
Sent: Saturday, July 07, 2012 2:01 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Magnum Energy Remote Control

 

Hi Jay;

 

When customers don't buy the Magnum remote meter, I program and test their
inverter with mine, then bring it home. Then they can pay me to come back if
changes in programming are needed (rare) or (more common) new equipment is
added.new generator, battery monitor, etc.

 

I always recommend the Magnum ME-BMK battery monitor for new Magnum
installations; In others where the owner doesn't want to buy the remote,
battery monitoring is through a previously-installed Tri-metric (about the
same price as the ME-BMK). The only cases where I run into no battery
monitor at all are systems that I didn't install, and am called in to
diagnose ;-)

 


Dan Fink,
Executive Director;
Otherpower
Buckville Energy Consulting
Buckville Publications LLC
NABCEP / IREC accredited Continuing Education Providers
970.672.4342 (voicemail)

 

 

On Sat, Jul 7, 2012 at 11:32 AM, jay peltz  wrote:

Hi Dan,

 

I've got to ask, if some customers don't buy those two things, I presume
they 

have to pay you for the service call to make any adjustments?

 

And, how do you tell them to operate the battery bank without a amp hr
meter?

I'm always curious about how others do this.

 

thanks,

 

jay

 

peltz power

 

-- 


 

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Morningstar MPPT charge controller

[bob ellison]

I haven't done it but why can't you use a standard lighting photocell to
turn on the inverter? There really is no current involved so the load
shouldn't be a problem.

I am assuming that you just want to turn on a light? 

 

Just a thought,

Bob Ellison

 

From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Solarguy
Sent: Thursday, August 02, 2012 10:49 AM
To: 'RE-wrenches'
Subject: [RE-wrenches] Morningstar MPPT charge controller

 

Wrenches

The Morningstar Sure Sine inverter and MPPT charge controller sound like a
good match considering the reliability of their products. But when I tried
to use the CCs ability to act as a timer to turn on/off the Sure Sine via
its remote on -off input terminals I found that the two are not compatible.
A call to tech support and I find that I must use a third-party relay to
activate the 1P-1T switch on the Sure Sine. 

I'm sure other Wrenches have come across this combination before for a 12V
lighting system so I'm wondering what specific brand or technology of relay
works reliably in a hot location. I prefer to have a DIN mounted relay but
will consider something else. 

Thanks in advance

 

Jim Duncan

North Texas Renewable Energy Inc

www.ntrei.com <http://www.ntrei.com/>  

NABCEP PV 031310-57

TECL-27398

nt...@1scom.net 

817.917.0527

 

 

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Dankoff 48Vdc replacement brushes?

[bob ellison]

Try going to a starter and alternator shop, if you can get a guy with a
sense of humor he may be able to match up something close. Then hope it
doesn't leak after you sink it again.

 

Bob Ellison

 

 

From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Allan
Sindelar
Sent: Wednesday, August 15, 2012 6:46 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Dankoff 48Vdc replacement brushes?

 

Long gone. Years ago, the Italian manufacturer made some products that
weren't up to standard, or some such. Cost Dankoff a lot of money to support
warranties. Dankoff sued the manufacturer in international court and won,
but never collected anything. That was the end of that relationship, of
course. 

Usually the ovoid or the flexible gasket goes before the brushes, and
they're made out of unobtanium. For awhile, Gary Hegg at 

Total Light & Power (505) 772-5759 PO Box 646 Pie Town, NM tried to service
them. I think he eventually gave up, but he might have brushes.

I think I know of one that I installed that's still working after 15 years.
Of course, the property was vacant for 14 of those years. Tip: it's not
worth fixing.

Windy doesn't follow this list any more.

Hope this helps!
Allan

Allan Sindelar
 <mailto:al...@positiveenergysolar.com> al...@positiveenergysolar.com
NABCEP Certified Photovoltaic Installer
NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional
New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician
Founder and Chief Technology Officer
Positive Energy, Inc.
3209 Richards Lane (note new address)
Santa Fe, New Mexico 87507
505 424-1112
www.positiveenergysolar.com <http://www.positiveenergysolar.com/>  

 

 

On 8/15/2012 4:15 PM, SunHarvest wrote:

Customer in need of replacement brushes for a Dankoff SunRise submersible
5226 48Vdc pump. Part number for brushes is BSH-5000. I keep getting the,
"Sorry, they don't make those anymore" response from my suppliers. Anyone
have them? Windy?

 

Thanks!

 

Eric Stikes
SunHarvest Solar
A Sustainable Energy Group Partner
+1 (530) 798 - 3738
www.harvesthesun.com






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Re: [RE-wrenches] question about Xantrex AGS

[bob ellison]

How do I contact "Flight Systems" I have a customer with a blown board from
a Hardy he would like to get rebuilt.

 

Thanks,

Bob Ellison

 

From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Chris Mason
Sent: Thursday, August 16, 2012 8:57 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] question about Xantrex AGS

 

Ron,

If your client wants to keep the Onan, Flight Systems can rebuild the board
for a small fee. I have used them for other generator controllers and they
are very reasonable.

On Thu, Aug 16, 2012 at 6:30 PM, Ron @ earthRight Solar
 wrote:

Hi Wrenches,

 

I have a client that has burned up two control boards on an Onan-Cummings
5.5 kw propane generator. The system includes an XW 6048 inverter, XW MPPT
c.c., and the Onan generator. System has worked well for several years but
recently burned up the control board on the Onan. Client decided to purchase
a new Onan instead of paying $1k for a new control board. The new Onan
lasted one week and the same result, control board fried. He is consulting
with me at this point - I didn't supply any of this equpt. - and Onan
supplier is being completely unhelpful. I'm trying to do a little detective
work here and discover the cause of the problem. I'm wondering if it could
be the XW-AGS possibly sending too high voltage to the Onan controller. Has
anyone had issues with these? Any suggestions?

 

Ron Young

 

earthRight Products - Solareagle.com

 

Williams Lake, BC

V2G 2A3

 


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-- 
Chris Mason

President, Comet Systems Ltd

www.cometenergysystems.com

Cell: 264.235.5670

Skype: netconcepts

 

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Heart Interface Inverter

[bob ellison]

Try putting a load on the generator (like a 1500 watt hair dryer) before the
Heart kicks on then once it transfers to the loads and starts charging, shut
it off.

It might be finding the voltage or frequency to high for it’s liking.

Plug it directly into the generator of somewhere before the inverter to get
gen power.

 

Bob Ellison

 

From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Chris Mason
Sent: Saturday, August 18, 2012 7:26 AM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Heart Interface Inverter

 

For what it's worth, the Fluke is known to mistake harmonics for base
frequency. I would look to borrow for a scope or at least use a cheaper
meter that can accurately report the frequency. Try slowing the generator to
59 Hz to see if the inverter likes it better.

 

On Fri, Aug 17, 2012 at 10:24 PM, mac Lewis  wrote:

Hello Wrenches,

 

AC charging system specs

Onan Marquis Gold 5500 LP Model 5.5HGJAB119D generator

Heart Interface Freedom 20 Model Inverter Charger (120VAC, 100A charger,
12VDC)

 

I have a new customer who has a used Onan RV generator (as specified above),
working with a Heart Inverter charger (specified above).  When the generator
is started, the Heart inverter kicks on and starts to charge, after about 3
seconds it kicks off, then on, then off and repeats.  The voltage and
frequency of the generator output look good. 120V L-N and 60-62 Hz no load.
The Heart just doesn't seem to like it after it kicks on the charger.
(Sorry, no scopemeter available)

 

What is very interesting is that on the other pole of a transfer switch
connected to the AC input, is a fairly inexpensive gas generator, pull
start, on wheels etc.  This puts out 108VAC at 59-60Hz.  When connected to
this generator the Heart immediately latches in and will continue charging
flawlessly at 100ADC.  For whatever reason, the Heart, doesn't like the
voltage waveform of the Onan generator.  The Fluke 87 multimeter that I was
using to test, was catching some type of transient (frequency reading would
shoot up to 70-100Hz) when the Heart would latch into the Onan.  Other that
that with my simple tools I could see no real difference between these
generators, other that the 108VAC of the gas generator.

 

Any ideas, or known compatibility issues with this equipment?

 

Thanks


 

-- 

 

 

 

Mac Lewis

"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates

 


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-- 
Chris Mason

President, Comet Systems Ltd

www.cometenergysystems.com

Cell: 264.235.5670

Skype: netconcepts

 

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Surge Protection- PV

[bob ellison]

Look at the video on Midnite Solar's site, You will never use Deltas again. 

Anyone want a deal on a bunch of LA302's?

 

Bob Ellison

 

From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Will White
Sent: Monday, August 20, 2012 10:53 AM
To: Keith Cronin; RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Surge Protection- PV

 

We use the LA302R for AC and LA602DC for the DC side.  I don't think I've
ever had one of them struck so I can't say how well they actually work.

 

From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Keith Cronin
Sent: Friday, August 17, 2012 4:53 PM
To: RE-Wrenches
Subject: [RE-wrenches] Surge Protection- PV

 

Hi folks

 

What kinds of products are you using for residential and commercial surge
protection for your PV systems?

 

Have a few clients that have been asking.

 

Is it at the service, using products like this:

http://www.cooperindustries.com/content/public/en/bussmann/electrical/produc
ts/surge_protectiondevice/photovoltaic_spd.videos.html

 

I always wonder what it protects and the fine print in the event of a
lightning storm to someone hitting a pole on the street and sending the
surge back into the property.

 

Aloha,

Keith

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Battery Specialist

[bob ellison]

I wire them thru bus bars now, but in the past before I did that I used to move 
them around occasionally. 

 

Later,

Bob

 

From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org 
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of 
d...@foxfire-energy.com
Sent: Friday, August 31, 2012 6:54 PM
To: re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
Subject: [RE-wrenches] Battery Specialist

 

Hi Guys, Seems my "Battery Specialist" is back. Yes, this is the same guy that 
convinced a few of my customers that most installers are clueless because we 
clean terminals with a wire brush instead of a razor blade (and don't believe 
in desulphators).  Now it seems he's telling folks that batteries should always 
be operated in the exact Sequence in which they were originally configured. 
i.e. #1 in the string should always be #1, #2 should always be #2 etc. I've 
been suggesting to folks (who still run multi string set ups) that they 
physically mix up their batteries periodically (at least once mid life cycle), 
to manually alter high resistance current paths. Call me old fashion, but I'm 
of the impression that only  Kirchhoff's Laws apply here. Am I missing 
something - again? Thanks db

 


Dan Brown
Foxfire Energy Corp.
Renewable Energy Systems
(802)-483-2564
www.Foxfire-Energy.com
NABCEP #092907-44

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Trojan L-16 SG Readings- Did Something Change?

[bob ellison]

Are you correcting for the changes in SG with the temperature increase?

I used to be able to get hydrometers with a built in thermometer and chart
but no longer have one. It died as most do, with a crash and shattering
sound.

 

Bob Ellison

 

From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Sequoya
Cross
Sent: Tuesday, September 04, 2012 3:23 PM
To: 'RE-wrenches'
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Trojan L-16 SG Readings- Did Something Change?

 

Thank you John. Is anyone else out there seeing specific gravity
measurements outside of what Trojan is stating on the spec sheets? 

 

John, we are not seeing these SG readings, no matter how much we equalize,
we are still seeing readings that are about .015+/- low after several
equalizations. This is on newer batteries, and within the plate forming
period. Do you have a SG reading that we should be looking for during the
first 18 months (or XX amount of cycles until the plates are properly
formed)?

 

Thanks-

 

Sequoya Cross
1589 Rapid Lightning Creek Rd
Sandpoint, Idaho 83864
 <http://www.backwoodssolar.com/> www.backwoodssolar.com

Phone(208)263-4290  

Fax (888) 273-8279


We are an online and catalog business that caters to off-grid and grid-tie
customers, with technicians that own and operate a variety of renewable
energy systems using the products that we sell. We take great pride in
getting to know our products so that we can recommend the best for our
customers.

 

 

 

 

From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of John
DeBoever
Sent: Friday, August 31, 2012 1:05 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Trojan L-16 SG Readings- Did Something Change?

 

Sequoya, Wrenches,

 

Thank you for your patience on this, as I had no easy Internet connection.
Below are the clarifications requested. 

 

 

*  Trojan Premium L16RE-B datasheet can be found here:
http://www.trojanbatteryre.com/PDF/datasheets/L16REB_TrojanRE_Data_Sheets.pd
f 

 

*  Trojan Premium line (
http://www.trojanbatteryre.com/PDF/Premium_Trojan_ProductLineSheet.pdf   )
has indeed changed its specific gravity from nominal 1.260+-0.007 to nominal
1,280+-0.007 since March 2012 production.  This change was motivated to
reduce the confusion in the field between Trojan Premium line S.G. values
and Trojan Signature line S.G. values.  They are now identical.  Only Trojan
IND line S.G. remain at 1.260 .

 

*  During the beginning of the life of the battery, an optimized development
process of the plates porosity will take place to maximize the surface
access contact between the electrolyte and the lead sulfate crystal within
Trojan proprietary exclusive paste formulation.  This optimum moisture of
the active material at the beginning of the battery life is the continuation
of an advanced factory-controlled 72-hour curing process and increase the
electrical conductivity and improved discharge performance of the active
material paste, resulting in Trojan's proven both sustained capacity and
total overall ampere-hours,  resulting in more operating power. The
variation can reflect approximately 7 points in the S.G. 

 

*  The date code can be found on the negative terminal and consist of one
letter and one figure.  The figure for 2012 is "2". Any date code from and
after "E2"  (i.e. Code date with letter E2, F2, G2,.)

will have a nominal S.G. of 1.280 . Prior that, the nominal S.G. was 1,260.

 

I hope that helps,

 

John 

 

 

John F. DeBoever

Global Technical & Projects Director - Renewable Energy

Trojan Battery Company

 

12380 Clark Street 

Santa Fe Springs, CA 90670

Tel: +1-562-236-3000 Ext. 3139

Cell: +1-845-514-7600 - NY office time zone: USA EST (GMT-5)

Skype: john.f.deboever

Fax: +1-562-236-3239

 <mailto:jdeboe...@trojanbattery.com> jdeboe...@trojanbattery.com

 <http://www.trojanbattery.com/> www.trojanbattery.com

 

From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Sequoya
Cross
Sent: Thursday, August 30, 2012 3:08 PM
To: re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
Subject: [RE-wrenches] Trojan L-16 SG Readings- Did Something Change?

 

We are wondering if anybody knows when the Trojan L-16RE-B batteries went
from full SG readings of 1.265 (after an 18 month "plate forming" period) to
1.280 that they now state on the data sheet. We have been having customers
use 1.250 as a full reading which would gradually increase over time to
1.265 and that might take/might not be seen for 18 months. Now we see that a
"full reading" should be 1.280 and maybe still a "plate forming" period or
maybe not? Does anyone know the date code that we can use with customers to
see what they should be looking for (should have been somewhere between 2010
and 2012)? I have this question out to Trojan as well, but haven'

Re: [RE-wrenches] wrenches] Short Circuit Cell Damage

[bob ellison]

If you cut them during the day, under sunlight conditions it can do bad things 
to the wire cutters.

 

Been there before,

Bob Ellison

 

From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org 
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of john
Sent: Tuesday, September 18, 2012 1:43 PM
To: re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] wrenches] Short Circuit Cell Damage

 

Mark,

   As far as cutting the jumper for us nightowls, it is easy.  Wait until dark. 
 The sun actually turns off every day!.
And for the new people on the block, polarity can still be determined after 
dark.  All you need is a microvolt to get polarity. 


John

CV Solar

-Original Message-
From: benn kilburn 
To: RE-wrenches 
Sent: Tue, Sep 18, 2012 1:48 am
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Short Circuit Cell Damage

Mark,

Shorting the string should not be an issue.  

Unless you work at night, obviously there will be an arc when you cut the 
jumper, so remember to cover the whole string with an opaque covering 
beforehand… I think I remember reading that somewhere?!?!  

Or just be careful, try to do it when the irradiance is low (less current), 
separate the cut wires quickly and make sure you have left enough wire in the 
box so that you are not working with short (and energized) wires in a metal 
box. put a wire nut on one wire while you handle and terminate the other.

 

A safer method, if possible, would be to leave an easily accessible module 
interconnection un-connected until you have terminated the home run (+)&(-), 
then go back and make the final module interconnection.

 

Cheers,

benn

DayStar Renewable Energy Inc. 

www.daystarsolar.ca <http://www.daystarsolar.ca/>   *  Ph: 780-906-7807 

Construction Electrician Solar Photovoltaic Systems Certified

Certificate # 0007S

HAVE A SUNNY DAY

 

On 17/09/12 9:50 PM, "Mark Frye"  wrote:

 

Wrenches,

 

True or False: In a nominal sort of grid tied situation with string Voc 

at about 300 VDC and Isc at about 6 or 7 amps..It is OK to install 

modules on a roof in the sun and short the pos and neg together 

indefinitely.

 

In other words modules can handle operating at Isc continuously without 

damage. It is only if you get localized shading AND a failed bypass 

diode that damaging hot spot heating can lead to failure?

 

I am reviewing an installation manual that recommends completing the 

home run by connecting the pos and neg of the string with a single 

jumper cable, folding the cable on itself in order to push it through to 

a j-box and at some point later on, cutting the jumper in the j-box to 

terminate the pos and negs to the home run.

 

I am concerned both about maintaining the string in a short circuit 

condition and cutting the jumper while energized.

 

Any thoughts?

 

Mark Frye

Berkeley Solar Electric Systems

 

 

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Ni-Fe batteries

[bob ellison]

Watch the Chinese ones, lots of problems there.

 

Bob Ellison

 

From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Aaron
Mandelkorn
Sent: Tuesday, September 25, 2012 4:52 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Ni-Fe batteries

 

Jon, Iron Edison in Colorado is the only supplier I know of.  I am thinking
about these as well. I know of a guy that has an Edison battery in his shop
for many years with no complaints.   

 

Their contact info is: 

The Iron Edison Battery Company, LLC 

10171 W. 9th Dr. 

Lakewood, CO 80215  

720-432-6433

http://ironedison.com/

 

Good luck,

 

Aaron Mandelkorn

NABCEP Certified PV Installer

Renewable Energy Outfitters

Box 65 Salida, CO. 81201

(970)596-3744

reoso...@gmail.com

www.reosolar.com

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

On Sep 25, 2012, at 11:19 AM, Jonathan Hill wrote:





Anyone know anything about Nickel-Iron Batteries? We sold some many years
ago but our supplier stopped carrying them. I have a client with a fairly
large bank of Hawker industrial batteries; 2100ah @ 48v. He is asking about
replacing them with Ni-Fe as he has heard that they will last virtually
forever, or at least longer than he might. Any thoughts on this? Also, any
suggestions of good suppliers? Thanks.

 

Jonathan Hill, senior system engineer and founder

Sierra Solar Systems

563C Idaho Maryland Road

Grass Valley, CA 95945

Celebrating our 32nd year in solar!

tech info and foreign orders:  (530) 273-6754 

order line: (888) ON-SOLAR (US only)   FAX:  (530) 273-1760

e-mail:  <mailto:solar...@sierrasolar.com>

world wide web:  <http://www.sierrasolar.com <http://www.sierrasolar.com/> >

 


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Re: [RE-wrenches] Ni-Fe batteries

[bob ellison]

I have a bunch of them but have never had enough solar to even think about
hooking them up. Efficiency is a problem as is the unusual voltage they run
at, It just seems strange running an odd number of cells. 

The Classic will handle it well but I am getting to the point where I want
things to go as smoothly as possible, after 20+ years experimenting is
getting tiring.

 

Have a great day,

Bob Ellison

 

From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Larry
Crutcher, Starlight Solar Power Systems
Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2012 7:58 AM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Ni-Fe batteries

 

Forever? Well, at least Edison thought they should last 100 years. As
mentioned by others, inefficiency is an impairing factor in an RE system.
However, due to the all time low cost for PV solar modules, these batteries
can actually be a viable option. If you have the space for 40% more PV power
and you have a customer willing to keep the batteries filled, the Ni-Fe
battery could be the last battery they will ever buy. Imagine the grand-kids
inheriting the battery bank.

 

Of course, there are many other details for you to study and understand
before diving in; don't compare these to lead acid. I have about 25 that of
these that are many years old that I bought for experimenting. I have also
read about an 85 year old bank that was made useable again by Peter DeMar.


Larry Crutcher

Starlight Solar Power Systems

 





 

On Sep 25, 2012, at 11:19 AM, Jonathan Hill wrote:

 

Anyone know anything about Nickel-Iron Batteries? We sold some many years
ago but our supplier stopped carrying them. I have a client with a fairly
large bank of Hawker industrial batteries; 2100ah @ 48v. He is asking about
replacing them with Ni-Fe as he has heard that they will last virtually
forever, or at least longer than he might. Any thoughts on this? Also, any
suggestions of good suppliers? Thanks.

Jonathan Hill, senior system engineer and founder 

Sierra Solar Systems

563C Idaho Maryland Road

Grass Valley, CA 95945

Celebrating our 32nd year in solar!

tech info and foreign orders:  (530) 273-6754 

order line: (888) ON-SOLAR (US only)   FAX:  (530) 273-1760

e-mail:  <mailto:solar...@sierrasolar.com>

world wide web:  <http://www.sierrasolar.com <http://www.sierrasolar.com/> >

 

 

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Trojan 2 volt L-16s

[bob ellison]

I too like the big single cells. I have used many of the Deka 1360 AH 2 volt
cells with good results over the years. All as a single string with welded
interconnects. The welding is an art but kinda fun to do. 

Want to clear out the owner, just light the torch!

 

I have had bad luck with the Deka L-16's in the same locations as Trojan
L-16's most failed around 3 years. The D series 2 volts are different, and
weigh around 230# or so. You can get them in the taller cases to have more
room for electrolyte to reduce watering frequency. They are my single cell
of choice at this point.

 

What I don't like about the Trojan L-16 2 volt is the separate cells, all
the caps to pull to check and fill, how about a connecting hole to let the
electrolyte travel between the cells, would it be that hard?

I have no doubt L-16 2 volt with the factory welded connections will 

outlast an L-16 6 volt

 

Good day,

Bob Ellison

 

 

 

From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Dan Fink
Sent: Monday, October 08, 2012 3:29 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Trojan 2 volt L-16s

 

Tom, big cells are really the way to go, rather than too many parallel
battery bank connections. That is for darned sure, Methinks the issue is
delivery weight. Was considering a back-of-pickup-truck winch arm  thing
here not too many years back, and then it all flashed before my
eyes...this SUCKS. We could possibly subcontract the delivery and
lifting of 300-400lb plastic-encased chunks of lead and acid, but otherwise
I have no desire to enter the health of my back into the equation. Those big
heavy batteries sure do work good, though, and last a long time.

 

-- 
Dan Fink,
Executive Director;
Otherpower
Buckville Energy Consulting
Buckville Publications LLC
NABCEP / IREC accredited Continuing Education Providers
970.672.4342 (voicemail)

On Mon, Oct 8, 2012 at 1:08 PM, Tom Duffy  wrote:

William

I have wondered about this as well, why don't they just make a big 1110 AH
cell? Which as you point out would be less caps to feed and less chance of
cell imbalance as well. I do like 2V cells over 6V but this question bothers
me.

Tom Duffy


-Original Message-
From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of William
Miller
Sent: Monday, October 08, 2012 1:59 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: [RE-wrenches] Trojan 2 volt L-16s

Friends:

Has anyone used the Trojan 2 volt L-16 batteries?  They each have 3 cells, I
presume in parallel.

The question presents:  Although you can divide the strings by three, there
are still an equal number of batteries and cells to maintain and to get out
of whack.  Will these batteries be equally likely or less likely to have
cell imbalances in the future?


The only benefit I see is a reduction in string wiring jumpers.

Comments?

Thanks in advance.

William Miller

 



 

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Off-grid 1nverter replacement for 3 HP

[bob ellison]

I have had inverters ruined by drywall dust, it literally filled them within
a couple years as the owner worked on his house. Next thing I am getting a
call that it would not work..

I doubt that sawdust would be any different.

 

Later,

Bob Ellison

 

From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of jay peltz
Sent: Saturday, October 13, 2012 5:28 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Off-grid 1nverter replacement for 3 HP

 

HI Hilton,

 

Before you go anywhere you need to know what the draw on this motor is.

 

I've seen 3 hp motors not be able to start on a 15kw genny.

Why?  Just horrible motors thats all.

 

jay

 

peltz power

On Oct 13, 2012, at 11:16 AM, Hilton Dier III wrote:





I have an off-grid client who is having trouble with his aging Xantrex
SW4024 inverter and is considering an upgrade. I need some advice.

One of his problems with his present system is that he can't run his 3 HP
240VAC table saw on the 4024. He'd be content to run his generator for any
long sessions of sawing, but he'd like the capability to do a cut or two
without firing it up.

I was thinking about stacking a couple of Outbacks. I'd like to know
people's real-world experiences with the relationship between motor HP,
rated inverter watts, and surge watts. How much wattage does he need to
actually do the job? That is, without flailing the inverter(s) into a
shortened life span.

Also, how do Outbacks compare with Magnums or whatever? I have been using
Outbacks for a while with good results, but I have been hearing murmurs and
grumbling since they were bought out. I haven't used Xantrex/Schneider for a
while and I have no experience with Magnums. I notice that the Magnums offer
split phase 240. 

I should note that he has his inverter setup in his wood shop. I am
theorizing that some of his inverter trouble could be from a tree's worth of
sawdust in the case. He presently has a 24V system, but he is considering a
battery replacement, which would be an opportunity to switch to 48V if
necessary. The sawdust issue makes me lean towards the sealed Outbacks, but
he does have a partially finished box for the inverter with filters and a
fan.

Opinions?

Many thanks.

Hilton



-- 
Hilton Dier III
Renewable Energy Design
Partner, Solar Gain LLC
453 East Hill Rd.
Middlesex, VT 05602
Tel: 802-223-6652

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Info On 2 V batteries Please

[bob ellison]

These batteries can take a 2000 or so cycles to 20% dod before they are worn
out.
Both numbers could be the 6 hour rate, it varies with electrolyte strength.
Somewhere between 1.265 and 1.285 SG, some hi acid cells are 1.325 SG.
The 24 means 24 cells, the 85 is the 85 AH plates and the 13 means 13
positive plates. Those will weigh 90 - 100# for each cell.
Can send you more info if you want.

Got to run,
Bob Ellison

-Original Message-
From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Parrish,
Peter
Sent: Tuesday, November 27, 2012 4:31 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: [RE-wrenches] Info On 2 V batteries Please

We recently purchased a battery powered forklift, with 24 ea. 2V batteries.
Approximate dimensions: W=5", L=6-3/16", H=~21" (hard to tell). Enersys is
stamped on the top.

The battery supplier claims the batteries are "24-85-13" but this refers to
a 24V battery as far as I can tell. He also claims that the batteries are
rated at 510-550 A-hr. I am assuming that the lower number is for 6 hours
discharge.

I would like to know more about the batteries. Also, how to discharge /
charge them. Should they be run down to 20% SOC and then fully charged? What
if we don't use the forklift for a week at a time?

Based on my experience of using AGM batteries, it would seem that the Bulk
charging rate should be some percentage (e.g. 20%) of the 6-hour ampacity,
then there is a constant voltage absorption charge (e.g. Vabs=2.385 V), and
a switch to Float when the charging current drops to some low percentage
(e.g. 0.5% of capacity), and the Float voltage being 2.125 V. Again
everything at 25 deg C. It seems like the forklift guys like to refer
everything to a 6 hour capacity, which may be related to the maximum typical
daily usage.

What is the relationship between Voc and SOC after resting the battery for 6
hours at 25 deg C?

Thanks in advance for your help, guys.

- Peter Parrish

Alternative Energy Department
College of the Canyons
peter.parr...@canyons.edu
O: (661) 362-3888 C: (323) 839-6108
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Magnum MS 4448 AE issues

[bob ellison]

Voltage drop with Magnum inverters has been an issue as it has with many
other off grid inverters.
That said, I doubt that you will ever get a Skystream to function correctly
off grid. You might get it to play nice if you hook it up to an Exeltec
inverter and have the inverter feed nothing else so it gets power separated
from the main system. Adding another string of batteries might help smooth
things out also, that would give it a larger sink to draw from and feed
into. The Rolls batteries have really dense plates and don't respond really
fast to changes.
A 2nd set of 2/0 cables wired to the opposite side of the battery bank might
help, unless you have them wired to buss bars or switch to 4.0 cables.

Just some random thoughts.

Merry Christmas everyone,
Bob Ellison 

-Original Message-
From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Ray Walters
Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2012 1:03 PM
To: ho...@catamountsolar.com; RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Magnum MS 4448 AE issues

I've seen those dips in output voltage from almost all off grid 
inverters under load.   They either dip the voltage or worse (like an 
old Trace SW5548) just shut off. Outback for instance just has a constant 50
amp output for 5 sec, and lets the voltage dip a bunch on surges.  The idea
is to to run them like a generator, which also dips voltage on surges.

2nd,  I know he didn't measure much volt drop on the DC side, but I've had
poor results with Rolls batteries under load.
3rd, I didn't know the Sky stream was recommended for off grid,  I thought
it was grid tie only.  I could see the Sky stream shutting off every time a
large load came on.  It probably would not work very well on generator power
either.
One fix would be to have separate inverters, to isolate the Sky stream from
the surge loads.
The only inverter I haven't tried is the Sunny Island, but I would imagine
it would have a voltage dip on surge too.
Perhaps some capacitance might help too?

Ray Walters
Solarray, Inc.

  On 12/23/2012 8:45 AM, Howie Michaelson wrote:
> Hi All,
>
> I am trying to help my brother-in-law figure out if he can continue 
> using his Magnum MS 4448 AE in his now off-grid home in Nova Scotia 
> which we installed about 3 years ago as at the time a battery backup 
> inverter.  I would preface the following with the information that he 
> is a very knowledgeable/hands on physicist (chair of the Physics 
> department at Dalhousie U. in Halifax, as well as an intrepid sailor 
> having sailed all over the world in 2 different sailboats he built 
> himself).  I mention this to explain that he is very capable and 
> understands the inner workings of his equipment much better than most
wrenches I know (and certainly me).
>
> About a year ago he installed a SkyStream 3.7 to add to the roughly 3 
> kW of solar on an FM80, and then a short time later disconnected 
> himself from the grid.  He immediately started having problems with 
> the Skystream regularly disconnecting from his system and shutting 
> down, then reconnecting and cycling off again, were as there hadn't 
> been a problem while grid-tied.  After much investigation and 
> conversation with SW WindPower tech support and some software patches 
> from them, things improved somewhat.  But the regular disconnections
continued.
>
> Since then he has spent a great deal of time on the phone with 
> Magnum's tech support but they have not been able to answer his more 
> technical questions.  The best they've offered is to have him send the 
> inverter in, but of course that is now not practical.
>
> The basic problem seems to be the voltage regulation during loading 
> and unloading of the inverter (even with medium sized loads). He tried 
> to get an internal wiring diagram and/or service manual from Magnum with
no luck.
>   He has not been able to get through to any engineers that would be 
> able to answer his more technical questions.  He is trying to figure 
> out if there are any internal set points that he can adjust or 
> components that can use tweaking. He has looked at the wave form with 
> a scope and would like to see if there are changes that he can make to 
> the electronics to allow for better regulation.
>
> Here is what he has written me:
>
> "Here is my report on the Magnum MS4448AE observing the AC output with 
> a Fluke 189, measuring the max and min values in slow mode (not it's 
> fast mode which would look at spikes for short times):
>
> I have checked several water heater elements running on 240 V (they 
> are between 2000 and 2500 Watts - immersion heaters). When switching 
> any one of them on, the voltage drops from around 240V to 197 V on 
> average, sometimes going as low as 170 V. These are serious

Re: [RE-wrenches] Fridge recommendations?

[bob ellison]

Not going to be doing it in Northern New York either!

The pump is broke and we will not get any sunshine until it is replaced!

 

We ARE that far back in the woods,

Bob Ellison

 

From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Chris Daum
Sent: Thursday, January 10, 2013 10:52 AM
To: 'RE-wrenches'
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Fridge recommendations?

 

Not in western Montana this time of year!

 

Chris Daum

Oasis Montana Inc.

 

  _  

From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Dean T.
Newberry
Sent: Wednesday, January 09, 2013 8:53 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Fridge recommendations?

Hello All,
Remarkable times now, when the answer is just stick up a little more PV to
fix your problem.
Put up 2kW and you can charge your Chevy Volt too. 

Regards, Dean



On 1/9/2013 7:38 PM, David Katz wrote:

Dave,
An extra kilowatt of modules will only cost you $700.  Put up the extra
modules and cut the generator run time in the winter.
David
 
David Katz
CTO & Founder
AEE Solar Inc
P: 707 825-1200
F: 707 825-1202
dk...@aeesolar.com
www.aeesolar.com
DISCLAIMER: 
This communication, along with any documents, files or attachments, is
intended for the use of only the addressee and contains privileged and
confidential information. If you are not the intended recipient, you are
hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of any
information contained in or attached to this communication is strictly
prohibited.  If you have received this message in error, please notify the
sender immediately by e-mail reply and destroy the original communication
and its attachments without reading, printing or saving in any manner.
 
 
-Original Message-
From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Dave Palumbo
Sent: Wednesday, January 09, 2013 12:23 PM
To: ho...@catamountsolar.com; 'RE-wrenches'
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Fridge recommendations?
 
Howie,
 
I usually agree to the Kenmore/Sears recommendation but the closest Sears is
coming in with is with 18 cu' units that are listed as using 385kWH/yr.
Higher than I'd like. This is for an off grid home and the extra 50 kWh/yr
translates to 137 Watt hours per day. For this particular home it will mean
an average of 2.5 hours per day of generator run time during our cloudy
snowy winter. This is for a small rental house on my property and I want to
keep the gen run time down as low as possible. Non-winter times will not be
a problem as the solar array will carry the RF as well as all the other
loads in the home.
 
Dave
 
-Original Message-
From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Howie
Michaelson
Sent: Wednesday, January 09, 2013 3:01 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Fridge recommendations?
 
Dave,
 
I've always recommended Kenmore (Sears) which we have - they are reliable,
quiet, and a good price point typically (especially if you get it on sale
which them seem to have every other week).  If you look for the right model,
you should be able to get one that comes close to that usage, especially in
the smaller models.  Sears' website lists the kWh yearly usage last time I
looked.
 
Howie
--
Howie Michaelson
NABCEP Certified Solar PV InstallerT
 
Catamount Solar, LLC
Renewable Energy Systems Sales and Service VT Solar Electric & Hot Water
Incentive Partner http://www.CatamountSolar.com
802-272-0004
 
 
On Wed, January 9, 2013 2:44 pm, Dave Palumbo wrote:

I'm having difficulty finding a RF in the 16 to 20 cu ft range that 
uses less than 350kWh/yr. All of the GE units listed by Energy Star as
300 to 311kWh/yr are no longer being manufactured according to my 
local appliance dealers.
 
 
 
I see a Fridgidaire 18.2 cu ft that uses 335kWh/yr (reviews that I see 
on this unit complained of loud clunky noises).
 
 
 
Sun Frost units are too pricey for this application.
 
 
 
Any recommendations?
 
 
 
Thanks,
 
Dave
 
 
 
David Palumbo
 
Independent Power LLC
 
462 Solar Way Drive
 
Hyde Park, VT 05655
 
www.independentpowerllc.com
 
Vermont Solar Partner
 
25 Years Experience, (802) 888-7194
 
 
 
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Fw: Anyone recognize this turbine?

[bob ellison]

Windseeker 500 rebladed

 

From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Jeremy
Rodriguez- All Solar Inc.
Sent: Saturday, February 23, 2013 6:41 PM
Cc: re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fw: Anyone recognize this turbine?

 

Sent via BlackBerry. Sorry for typos and shorthand!

  _  

From: All Solar Inc.  

Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2013 16:19:06 -0700

To: All Solar, Inc.

Subject: FW: Anyone recognize this turbine?

 



 




  _  

From: allso...@live.com
To: re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
Subject: Anyone recognize this turbine?
Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2013 16:14:35 -0700

It appears to have Air (tm) blades,but I am trying to get some info to
possibly repair it. 

ALL SOLAR INC.
Jeremy Rodriguez

 

  _  

No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 2013.0.2899 / Virus Database: 2639/6124 - Release Date: 02/22/13

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Re: [RE-wrenches] GJ series breakers 250A 250vdc

[bob ellison]

They are still available in several configurations (hook up styles)

The DC 175/250 had a hold down strap instead of bolting to a panel.  

Back to searching email.

Later,

Bob Ellison

 

 

 

From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Jason
Szumlanski
Sent: Monday, February 25, 2013 7:11 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] GJ series breakers 250A 250vdc

 

I think you can still buy the DC250, so I assume the breakers are out there.
You might look at the Midnite E-Panels. They may use the same or compatible
DC breakers.



Jason Szumlanski Vice President, Fafco Solar
Tel: 239-574-1500
ja...@fafcosolar.com | http://FafcoSolar.com

 <http://www.facebook.com/FafcoSolar> Facebook
<https://twitter.com/szumlanski> Twitter
<http://www.linkedin.com/in/jasonszumlanski> LinkedIn
<http://solarsouthwestflorida.com/feed> Blog RSS
<http://solarsouthwestflorida.com> WordPress

 

On Mon, Feb 25, 2013 at 1:23 PM, All Solar, Inc. 
wrote:

Wrenches,

Anyone know if the old DC250 breakers are still available?  I see they are a
GJ series Heinemann.

Going to be insatalling a 2nd SW for a client. He has the DC250 enclosure,
so I was hoping to install it there. I guess I would need the mounting clips
to hold it to the backplate. Wierd since it's a panel mount breaker.

 

Regards,

Jeremy

 

All Solar, Inc.


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Re: [RE-wrenches] DC circuit breakers in parallel

[bob ellison]

Makes me wonder how many dual breakers I have taken the handle tie off and
used as singles in the past. It has been several, and none with no internal
connections that I could find or notice, with the exception of longer rivets
holding them together.

 

Granted it has been a while since I have done that.

 

Later,

Bob Ellison 

 

From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of John Berdner
Sent: Wednesday, February 27, 2013 2:06 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] DC circuit breakers in parallel

 

Larry:

 

The Code requires parallel breakers to be designed for this application
(internally ganged).

Just using a handle tie does not allow you to use the poles in parallel.

 

Best Regards,

 

John Berdner

General Manager, North America

 

SolarEdge Technologies, Inc.

3347 Gateway Boulevard, Fremont CA 94538 USA  (*Please note of our new
address.)
T: 510.498.3200, X 747

M: 530.277.4894 

 

From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Ryan
Sent: Wednesday, February 27, 2013 8:45 AM
To: re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] DC circuit breakers in parallel

 

Larry
Our 100 amp din rail is essentially 2 breakers in parallel. So in theory the
2 60 amp breakers "Could" work but. My concern would be that they may not be
tripped at the same time where they are not internally ganged. I can't say
"Go Ahead" but.

Ryan

-- 
Ryan Stankevitz
Technical Support Manager
MidNite Solar Inc.
r...@midnitesolar.com
360-403-7207 XT 151
Skype ID ryan.midnite



On 2/27/2013 11:21 AM, Larry Crutcher, Starlight Solar Power Systems wrote:

We are installing the system today and I only have 60amp in stock. Customer
lives in CA and is leaving today after the installation. 


Larry Crutcher

Starlight Solar Power Systems

 

 

On Feb 27, 2013, at 9:17 AM, Jonathan Hill wrote:

 

Why not use one of Midnite's new 100 amp din breakers?

Jonathan Hill 

Solar applications engineer

Solar Electric Supply

530-559-3781

solar...@solarelectricsupply.com

 


On Feb 27, 2013, at 8:06 AM, "Larry Crutcher, Starlight Solar Power
Systems" wrote:

Hello Wrenches, 

 

I am installing a Classic 150 controller in an RV with potential 95 amps
output at 12 volts. The customer has a Midnite DIN box and wants me to use
it for the controller output. I am out of 150VDC breakers but I have two 60
amp breakers. Is it safe and reliable to use the 2 breakers in parallel for
this purpose? I can pin the two handles together. There will be other
circuit protection at the battery.


Thank you,


Larry Crutcher

Starlight Solar Power Systems

 






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Re: [RE-wrenches] DC generators

[bob ellison]

For a full charge the best bet would be a 3 stage charging system. That
would be for everyday use. A considerably less complicated controller than
the xantrex "incharge" would be really nice. I never could make one of those
function correctly over about 5 years of playing with it.
Otherwise a good bulk charge to get by till the sun comes back would work
well.

If it has a taper charge from the factory t would take almost forever to
charge a large battery bank.

I do like the output, but probably will hate the price.

Later,
Bob Ellison

-Original Message-
From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of jay peltz
Sent: Wednesday, March 06, 2013 8:20 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: [RE-wrenches] DC generators

I just wanted to follow up on one thing about the kohler DC gensets.

I talked to my genny buddy about the Kohler and he said:

The voltages are adjustable.  On the 24v unit, from 24 to 33v.
It also tapers  the current down to around 40 amps, from a peak of 222.

thanks,

jay

peltz power








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Re: [RE-wrenches] Reliable Cheap Modsine Inverter

[bob ellison]

I can second the Morningstar SureSine, it just works! To bad it is not
available in 24 volts. I keep hoping.

Bob Ellison

-Original Message-
From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Dan Fink
Sent: Wednesday, March 13, 2013 12:28 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Reliable Cheap Modsine Inverter

Ray;

Keep in mind that with truck stop inverters, everything *must* be plugged
into the front 120vac outlets on the inverter. You can use a power strip,
but can NOT run a wire to a breaker box. The ground/neutral bond will fry
most of these inverters, and you could see some significant leakage on the
ground line.

The only brand I've had decent luck with is Xantrex ProWatt. The rest have
all fried fairly quickly for various reasons.

Personally I'd go straight for a MorningStar SureSine, and a small breaker
box. These are awesome little inverters at 300W continuous. No fan, no
hassle, they just sit there and work, for years.


Dan Fink,
Executive Director;
Otherpower
Buckville Energy Consulting
Buckville Publications LLC
NABCEP / IREC accredited Continuing Education Providers
970.672.4342




On Wed, Mar 13, 2013 at 10:01 AM, Ray Walters  wrote:
> Hi Guys;
>
> I have a project that will need multiple small battery based inverters.
> Each one will only be running a 100 w max. computer power supply, so 
> there are no significant surges, and modsine will be fine  (most small 
> UPS systems only put out modsine)  Avg load will be 20 watts.
> I know these little devils are sold everywhere from Walmart to 
> Autozone, but what brand holds up to moderate use?
> Has anybody tried AIMs inverters?
> Cost is an issue, budget can't afford a Magnum 600, or other 
> transformer based model, but reliability is most important.  I'm 
> planning on oversizing it substantially, I figure I would start with 
> something at at least 400 w cont rating, just to make sure.  I had an 
> old no name 1500 w inverter on our work truck that we took in on 
> trade, and it actually ran a circular saw.  We tried to burn it out and
never did.
> UL listing is not an issue, as these will be very small stand alone 
> systems not requiring AHJs or permits.
>
> Thanks in advance as always,
>
> --
> R.Ray Walters
> CTO, Solarray, Inc
> Nabcep Certified, Licensed Contractor
> 808 269-7491
>
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No virus found in this message.
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Version: 2013.0.2904 / Virus Database: 2641/6165 - Release Date: 03/11/13

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Solar labels

[Bob Ellison]

If you're using a P touch there are labels with adhesives available that are 
non-removable and stick on real well
The regular labels will unpeel at some point 
The nonremovable ones don't unpeel their labels and hold their colors very well 
especially inside a box

Opening a box and finding five labels laying on the bottom isn't pleasant!

Later,
Bob Ellison


Bob Ellison

On Jul 17, 2013, at 2:17 PM, David Brearley 
 wrote:

> I recently sat in on a free HellermannTyton webinar that included quite a bit 
> of content related to solar labels:
> 
> http://www.hellermanntyton.us/promo/webinar.aspx
> 
> The webinar includes a good overview of NEC 2014 changes. It also emphasizes 
> solar label solutions offered by HellermannTyton. And there are new labeling 
> requirements on the way.
> 
> If you're in the market for a new labeling solution, you might want to sign 
> up for one of these webinars. There are 2 or 3 more scheduled in the near 
> future.
> 
> David Brearley
> Senior Technical Editor, SolarPro magazine
> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional
> david.brear...@solarprofessional.com
> Direct: 541.261.6545
> 
> 
> 
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Trace SW Stacking Cable?

[bob ellison]

Would it be possible to make one if we had a sample to know the wire order? 

Bob

-Original Message-
From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Jeff
Clearwater, Village Power Design
Sent: Monday, March 30, 2009 6:05 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: [RE-wrenches] Trace SW Stacking Cable?

Hi All,

I need to track down a '98 vintage Trace SW stacking cable.  Anyone 
have or know where I might find one?

Thanks,

Jeff C.
-- 
~
Jeff Clearwater
Senior Design Engineer
NABCEP (tm) Certified Solar PV Installer
http://www.nabcep.org/
Village Power Design/NorthEast Solar Design
Turnkey Solar Design & Installation for the Commercial Sector
http://www.villagepower.com
goso...@villagepower.com

Voice: 413-259-3750
Fax: 413-825-0703
65 Schoolhouse Rd
Amherst, MA 01002
~
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