Re: [RE-wrenches] SunSaver failures; MPPT controller reliability (1A Charge/Load controller)

[larry]

Jason,Not much to elaborate on. A single 200 watt Sanyo module, about 25' of 8 gauge wire, lowest temperature 20 degrees. When the SunSaver controllers fail, they cause a short circuit at the battery terminals. Morningstar handled the warranty as they do all SunSaver warranty's, quickly sending replacements with return postage for the defective unit. We have had 4 SunSaver failures since November 1.I sell 150+ charge controllers at our retail store each season (Nov. ~ Dec.), most of which are MPPT. Reliability is critical to me and I pay very close attention to failures. Most of my customers are mobile and not able to return to our store if a product fails. I have tested and sold many MPPT models. The Phocos MPPT controller I was evaluating failed and we have had our share of Outback and BZ controller failures. Blue Sky Energy has had a few bad controllers but compared to the volume of BSE products we sell (over 1100) they have been the most reliable. I have not yet tested Steca, TriStar, or Xantrex MPPT controllers.Larry Starlight Solar Power Systems


 Original Message 
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] 10A Charge / load controller
From: Jason Lerner <wapa...@rockisland.com>
Date: Sat, January 22, 2011 11:56 am
To: RE-wrenches <re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org>

Hi Larry,I am curious about the failures you have had,  could you elaborate?Thanks,Jason LernerWaldron Power and Light Co.On Jan 21, 2011, at 5:37 PM, Starlight Solar, Larry Crutcher wrote:I have had failures with the Sunsaver MPPT. I have used them with a single Sanyo module in small battery systems. Perhaps they just can't handle the 50.9 Voc. LarryStarlight Solar Power Systems



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[RE-wrenches] AGM battery charging, more details

[larry]

Hello Hugh,Generally, the manufacturers charge recommendations should be followed. If you take away the red paint, I believe the Rolls AGM is the Fullriver DC series battery. We started selling Fullriver last year and I was surprised to find the very high absorb voltage recommendation. For the DC400-6 (415AH) in cycle use they recommend charging at 29 to 29.8 volts and float at 27.6 @25C! That is the highest AGM voltage settings I have seen from any manufacturer.My thinking about AGM's is that the float voltage and transition current are much more important factors than absorb voltage and current. For most AGM's, initial charge current is almost unlimited. However, Fullriver recommends current limiting and constant voltage for the bulk/absorb cycle. Their current limit is .15 to .35*C20 rate. BTW, make sure to adjust the temp. comp to 3mV/C/C for float. That is lower than most.Equipment in a 24 volt system should be fine up to 32 to 33 volts. Check the specs.What I said about equalizing was that I had done it twice to my personal AGM battery bank. After the battery is fully charged (<0.2A per 100ah@C20) I put each battery, not each string, on a current controlled charger. The current setting is .05*C20. I don't use voltage regulation when I do this. Once the battery reaches 2.58 V/Cell, I charge for about 4 more hours always monitoring battery temperature. I use this process to recover AGM battery capacity and it has been mostly successful with all brands. No more puzzle.LarryStarlight Solar Power Systems


 Original Message 
Subject: [RE-wrenches] AGM set-points for 'opportunity charging'
From: Hugh <h...@scoraigwind.co.uk>
Date: Fri, April 22, 2011 11:49 pm
To: RE-wrenches <re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org>

  At 14:19 -0700 21/4/11, Starlight Solar, Larry Crutcher wrote:  I disagree about AGM life. I have heard others say this about AGM's but it has not been our experience. I personally have a 900AH bank that is 6 years old and shows little signs of aging. I have equalized the batteries twice to keep the capacity up(each one individually, constant current, unregulated voltage) We only sell and install battery based systems at our retail store and about 50% of sales are AGM batteries. We have found that they have similar life to flooded batteries but with great benefits.  I am curious about AGM battery charging set-points.  I may be using Rolls AGM batteries for a telemetry application (unattended) with wind and PV inputs.  This will be 'opportunity charging'.    I wonder what set points I should use for absorption and float?  Is it safe to set absorption to 29 volts (temperature compensated)?  I may not be able to set it this high since the voltage will exceed 30 in cold weather and this may interfere with equipment.  But will the batteries like that voltage?  Float would be lower of course.  But in my experience the Tristar flits between the two settings in a slightly random fashion.  I am also puzzled by the above statement where Larry charges each battery string at constant current, unregulated voltage.  I wonder what current is suitable?  thanks -- 
 Hugh Piggott  Scoraig http://www.scoraigwind.co.uk



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Re: [RE-wrenches] Battery / no-battery

[larry]

That one is news to me but I can see a small value in it as an upgrade path.Larry


 Original Message 
Subject: [RE-wrenches] Battery / no-battery
From: William Miller 
Date: Wed, October 26, 2011 10:20 pm
To: RE-wrenches 

Friends:

Is there such a thing as an inverter that does not need batteries today, 
but next week you can add batteries?  A potential client tell me a 
competitor is offering such an inverter.  I have a narrow field of 
experience with battery inverters:  Trace, Xantrex and Outback, so I might 
be unaware of a product.

Thanks in advance,

William

Miller Solar
Voice :805-438-5600
email: will...@millersolar.com
http://millersolar.com
License No. C-10-773985




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Re: [RE-wrenches] High Voltage MPPT units

[larry]

With 4800 watts and HV input, it seems to me that a simple battery backup can be formed from an existing PV grid tie system. Block diagram attached. Where can one find a 600 volt rated DC transfer switch?Larry


 Original Message 
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] High Voltage MPPT units
From: John DeBoever 
Date: Sat, November 05, 2011 6:09 am
To: "'re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org'"


 Todd, It is 2,560 Wp for 24V battery banks and 4,800 Wp for 48V battery banks. John    From: toddc...@finestplanet.com [mailto:toddc...@finestplanet.com]  Sent: Saturday, November 05, 2011 12:42 AM To: RE-wrenches   Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] High Voltage MPPT units      what is the max wattage the unit can handle? (it can't be 80 X 600?)   todd   



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Re: [RE-wrenches] intermittent battery problem; ...Battery Sulfation

[larry]

ning to think we have something else going on here, something electrical, not chemical. The rapid voltage drop is puzzling. To review, it's an Outback 3524 on an Epanel, Whisper 100 & controller, 6 4KS 25 Surrette batteries in 24v configuration - 4.5 years old, .7kw solar. I know the charging end is undersized but they have been compensating with the generator and they get lots of wind in the fall, winter, spring.Any more thoughts on this anyone?Best Regards,Ron YoungearthRight Products - Solareagle.comAlternative Energy Solutions ~ Renewable Energy ProductsOn 2011-10-24, at 6:50 AM, Larry Crutcher, Starlight Solar Power Systems wrote:Hi Ron,Accurate SG readings are not simple. Was temperature compensation properly employed? Have they been keeping a log book to identify changes? How accurate is the hydrometer? How skilled is the person taking the reading? Most of the Battery Wrench responses suggest equalization but I don't see from any of your posts that this has been done yet. I suggest this to be the next step and I recommend that you carefully watch voltage and current. This will tell you a lot. I use a Fluke ScopeMeter in the TrendPlot mode and track voltage and current over time. It provides a good visual understanding.In case others are using this forum to glean information, attached is a chart for illustration of the charge cycle. You should see a constant, somewhat linear rise in voltage until the constant voltage setting is reached. If you see a sudden rise: suspect sulfation. If you see a quick reduction in current: suspect sulfation. The current should drop to about 8-10 amps at the constant voltage towards the end of charge cycle. The health and DoD will determine the time this takes, expect many hours. Begin equalization.<3s-chart.gif> A couple other points: Is the MX absorb voltage at 29.6V? Did you program the MX controller for an extended absorb time (advanced menu, absorb time limits)? The default setting is poor for large batteries. I use 90 minutes minimum and 4 hours max. This can greatly reduce the possibility of undercharging the battery but it may use more water. The timer (ChgT) will determine how long it stays in absorb each day.Larry CrutcherStarlight Solar Power Systems On Oct 24, 2011, at 12:49 AM, Ron Young wrote:Hi Larry,I immediately assumed sulphated battery when I heard the customers description a couple of weeks ago but the hydrometer readings didn't jive. Any sulphated battery I've encountered, and I defer to your greater experience, has always revealed itself with a simple S.G. test and these batteries were reading above 1.265. I then thought the possibility of a defective hydrometer and had them test with another but we just got confirmation of the same thing. The weird drop in voltage also isn't explained by your description. Why would this just happen without loads or charging present (except maybe the DC Sunfrost load) at the same predictable time at 4 a.m. The fact that when the generator was turned on and sent a surge of current into the system and the problem went away made the detective in me think there had to be another explanation. The bank was at rest for several hours through the night and the voltage dropout was cured by a brief application of charge current. When I arrived on site my discovery that the client was under watering the batteries and this chronic condition resulted in a very rich electrolyte, reading well above 1.265 - into the 1.280 range made me think that was the problem and it seems to have gone away now that the electrolyte level was raised and the batteries given a good charge. But it still nags at me that something else is lurking in the shadows. Your description of the sulphate converting to a crystalline form has me worried because if this is the case this expensive battery bank is in danger. I would have to camp out at the site and monitor the charging over a day or so. I'm going to forward some of your comments and those of others that have generously offered suggestions and we'll see if I can convince the client who now believes everything is A-Ok.Best Regards,Ron YoungearthRight Products - Solareagle.comAlternative Energy Solutions ~ Renewable Energy Products___List sponsored by Home Power magazineList Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.orgOptions & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.orgList-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.orgList rules & etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htmCheck out participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org___
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[RE-wrenches] Outback Power monitor software

[larry]

Hello Wrenches,What options other than WinVerter are available for local data monitoring and display of an Outback system? The components are two FX's, two FM80's, AGS and FNDC. It would be ideal to monitor all components but most importantly the Flexnet DC.This installation is in a motorhome and space is very limited but I do have some wall space to surface mount a PC/display near the Mate. Has anyone used a touch screen with embedded PC like a 10.4" industrial type? The customer is a Mac user and does not want to load Windows. Thank you to all who contribute to the wrench list.Larry CrutcherStarlight Solar Power Systems
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Couple of Qustions about AGM batteries

[larry]

Hello Peter,The 3024iL and DiL have a few parameters that can be programmed with the internal DIP switches. Switch 7 will allow you to change the acceptance time. This will help lengthen the charge time as long as the current draw stays above the factory default setting of 1.5 amps/100AH capacity. You are correct: You must have the IPN Pro to adjust the float transition current to force the controller to stay in acceptance long enough to charge AGM's properly. You can program down as low as 0.1% of the 100AH capacity. The IPN Pro can be used to program all the settings of all IPN controllers and dealer cost is much less than a "few hundred" dollars.Larry CrutcherStarlight Solar Power Systems


 Original Message 
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Couple of Qustions about AGM batteries
From: "Peter Parrish" 
Date: Sun, February 07, 2010 11:43 am
To: "'RE-wrenches'" 

Dan et al,   Thanks for all the input. The 1 mA per A-hr capacity (20 hr) for AGMS was very important to know. Our AGMs are 250 A-hr, so that equates to 0.25 A. This is exactly what we are getting right now in float mode.    The problem that I was having arose from the Blue Sky 3024 DiL CC only staying in acceptance mode for 2 hours each day (this is the factory default). So it took quite a few days to really top off the battery bank.   In order to program the scenario I want, I will have shell out a few hundred bucks for an “IPN-ProRemote” to access and adjust the acceptance mode parameters on the 3024.      - Peter Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D., President California Solar Engineering, Inc. 820 Cynthia Ave., Los Angeles, CA 90065 CA Lic. 854779, NABCEP Cert. 031806-26 peter.parr...@calsolareng.com   Ph 323-258-8883, Mobile 323-839-6108, Fax 323-258-8885     



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Re: [RE-wrenches] Battery cable crimper

[larry]

Hi Allen,It is huskie, not Husky. I think my auto correct unfixed it. I purchased this one used. I think it was about $1800. When I get back to the office tomorrow, I'll check the model #. It is a dieless design with 4 points that crimp from #4 to 4/0 ( I think it goes to 500). We make well over 300 crimps per month and this tool has been fast and flawless.Larry 


 Original Message 
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Battery cable crimper
From: Allan Sindelar <al...@sindelarsolar.com>
Date: Thu, May 01, 2014 4:20 pm
To: RE-wrenches <re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org>

 Larry, OK, need more info please...  "Husky" is a Home Depot house brand for tools. "Huskie" makes hydraulic and battery powered crimpers costing up to $2500. What's the specific brand and model? Did you get this from Home Depot or otherwise, and what did you pay?  Thanks, Allan  Allan Sindelar al...@sindelarsolar.com NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. 505 780-2738 cell       On 5/1/2014 4:46 PM, Larry Crutcher, Starlight Solar Power Systems wrote:   Ray, 
This might be a "great mind think alike" moment..…I own all 4 of those crimpers also. But, the best money I ever spent was on this Husky battery operated monster. I can reach into an area when replacing a lug that you could never reach with other crimpers.

Larry
 
On Apr 30, 2014, at 11:08 PM, Ray Walters  wrote:

Here's all the battery lug crimpers I tried over the years in order of the best to worst connections they produced:

Yes, believe it or not: the venerable Hammer crimper makes excellent connections.  Its also Cheap, but its Slow, cumbersome, and can't be used in a J box.
The V and indent connection with the thin wall lugs makes the ideal battery and DC connections.  They look just like the crimps from Outback, Trace, Midnite,etc.  I've cut them open on a band saw, and the fine strands are practically fused together into an almost solid cross section of copper with no voids, but no tearing of strands at the edges either.
This crimper goes out on most jobs, as it fits in the bottom of the tool box.

The Greenlee indentor crimper makes the same V  crimp connection as the hammer crimper, but is faster, and can be used up in a j box.  More expensive, and adjuster readings can't be counted on.  I tighten the adjuster until I can just pull the handle down with putting some body weight into it, but not so much that I'm standing on it or straining the tool.  Depending on the cable and lug combination, the setting may be 2 sizes smaller with thin wall lugs.
Overall, this is what we use most of the time.  I found that this set in a drill vice makes a good bench crimper, when you need to do a batch of battery jumpers.


I used this one for many years, also a V crimper, but has different dies.  Crimp quality was not as good, as the dies tore into the lug some.  Also changing the dies took time, and we once lost one of the dies, and it took months to get a replacement.  Not adjustable for different lug and cable combos.


The "UL" Hex type crimper that you will find at regular electrical supply houses.  Quite expensive, but I am not a fan.  The dies bend slightly under pressure and so the hex crimps are not aligned with each other.  The dies tear the lugs, leaving sharp edges that can tear heat shrink, and there is no adjustment available to account for different cable and lug combinations.  
We have  X flex from Cobra, MTW from Quick Cable, and some DLO from another supplier.  All are UL listed 4/0 and all somewhat different in diam. and how the strands crush.  I have had a connection failure with this tool, and cutting through a cross section of the lug was not as solid a crimp as the V type.  I removed this tool from our shop, to avoid mistakes.
I'm sure with regular Class B stranded THHN, and the heavy wall, color coded lugs, that this is a good tool, but for battery connections, it does not work as well with thin wall lugs.
Finally, I do not recommend the heavy wall, long barrel lugs on batteries.  The square lug end is just too big and thick, and can't bolt to battery terminals in some cases.  We have had to grind away a corner for instance to have the heavy wall lugs land on an battery Flag terminal.  
The heavy terminals some what negate the advantages of flex cable in the first place.
R.Ray Walters
CTO, Solarray, Inc
Nabcep Certified PV Installer, 
Licensed Master Electrician
Solar Design Engineer
303 505-8760

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Battery cable crimper

[larry]

Here's one almost identical to mine: http://www.ebay.com/itm/GREENLEE-GATOR-PLUS-EK06AT-CRIMPER-TOOL-/261468069343?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3ce0b61ddf


 Original Message 
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Battery cable crimper
From: <la...@starlightsolar.com>
Date: Thu, May 01, 2014 4:51 pm
To: "RE-wrenches" <re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org>

Hi Allen,It is huskie, not Husky. I think my auto correct unfixed it. I purchased this one used. I think it was about $1800. When I get back to the office tomorrow, I'll check the model #. It is a dieless design with 4 points that crimp from #4 to 4/0 ( I think it goes to 500). We make well over 300 crimps per month and this tool has been fast and flawless.Larry     Original Message  Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Battery cable crimper From: Allan Sindelar <al...@sindelarsolar.com> Date: Thu, May 01, 2014 4:20 pm To: RE-wrenches <re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org>  Larry, OK, need more info please...  "Husky" is a Home Depot house brand for tools. "Huskie" makes hydraulic and battery powered crimpers costing up to $2500. What's the specific brand and model? Did you get this from Home Depot or otherwise, and what did you pay?  Thanks, Allan Allan Sindelar al...@sindelarsolar.com NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. 505 780-2738 cell       On 5/1/2014 4:46 PM, Larry Crutcher, Starlight Solar Power Systems wrote:   Ray, 
This might be a "great mind think alike" moment..…I own all 4 of those crimpers also. But, the best money I ever spent was on this Husky battery operated monster. I can reach into an area when replacing a lug that you could never reach with other crimpers.

Larry
 On Apr 30, 2014, at 11:08 PM, Ray Walters  wrote:

Here's all the battery lug crimpers I tried over the years in order of the best to worst connections they produced:

Yes, believe it or not: the venerable Hammer crimper makes excellent connections.  Its also Cheap, but its Slow, cumbersome, and can't be used in a J box.
The V and indent connection with the thin wall lugs makes the ideal battery and DC connections.  They look just like the crimps from Outback, Trace, Midnite,etc.  I've cut them open on a band saw, and the fine strands are practically fused together into an almost solid cross section of copper with no voids, but no tearing of strands at the edges either.
This crimper goes out on most jobs, as it fits in the bottom of the tool box.

The Greenlee indentor crimper makes the same V  crimp connection as the hammer crimper, but is faster, and can be used up in a j box.  More expensive, and adjuster readings can't be counted on.  I tighten the adjuster until I can just pull the handle down with putting some body weight into it, but not so much that I'm standing on it or straining the tool.  Depending on the cable and lug combination, the setting may be 2 sizes smaller with thin wall lugs.
Overall, this is what we use most of the time.  I found that this set in a drill vice makes a good bench crimper, when you need to do a batch of battery jumpers.


I used this one for many years, also a V crimper, but has different dies.  Crimp quality was not as good, as the dies tore into the lug some.  Also changing the dies took time, and we once lost one of the dies, and it took months to get a replacement.  Not adjustable for different lug and cable combos.


The "UL" Hex type crimper that you will find at regular electrical supply houses.  Quite expensive, but I am not a fan.  The dies bend slightly under pressure and so the hex crimps are not aligned with each other.  The dies tear the lugs, leaving sharp edges that can tear heat shrink, and there is no adjustment available to account for different cable and lug combinations.  
We have  X flex from Cobra, MTW from Quick Cable, and some DLO from another supplier.  All are UL listed 4/0 and all somewhat different in diam. and how the strands crush.  I have had a connection failure with this tool, and cutting through a cross section of the lug was not as solid a crimp as the V type.  I removed this tool from our shop, to avoid mistakes.
I'm sure with regular Class B stranded THHN, and the heavy wall, color coded lugs, that this is a good tool, but for battery connections, it does not work as well with thin wall lugs.
Finally, I do not recommend the heavy wall, long barrel lugs on batteries.  The square lug end is just too big and thick, and can't bolt to battery terminals in some cases.  We have had to grind away a corner for instance to have the heavy wall lugs land on an battery Flag terminal.  
The heavy terminals some what negate the advantages of flex cable in the first place.
R.Ray Walters
CTO, Solarray, Inc
Nabcep Certified PV Installer, 
Li

[RE-wrenches] Parallel Wire combining

[Larry]

Wrenches,

If I combine 3 conductors of equal length in parallel, is the resulting 
size equal to 3 times the Circular Mil area? For example, #4 is 42,080cm 
so are three #4's close to 2/0 (134,200cm) in size? Is it as simple as 
this? Assuming the conductors can not be removed individually, does this 
mean the current capacity is equal to the resulting wire size?


Thanks, Larry
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Parallel Wire combining

[Larry]

OK, let's use 1/0 for the example. 108,350 x 3 = 325,050. Do I now have 
a cable between 300 and 350 AWG?


Thank you,

Larry

On 12/2/14 10:51 AM, Bill Turberville wrote:


The minimum conductor size that can be paralleled, according to the 
NEC is 1/0.


William C. Turberville P.E.

President

Electrical Contracting Enterprises LLC

3080 Stage Post Dr ste 107

Bartlett, TN 38133

901-348-9230 ext 101 phone

901-289-6346 cell

901-348-2192 FAX

*From:*RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org 
<mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org>] *On Behalf Of 
*Jerry Shafer

*Sent:* Tuesday, December 02, 2014 11:45 AM
*To:* RE-wrenches
*Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Parallel Wire combining

We have installed multible mcm 500 to meet this and there were three 
on each leg but that was because of the required size and bending room

Jerry

On Dec 2, 2014 7:43 AM, "Larry" <mailto:la...@starlightsolar.com>> wrote:


Wrenches,

If I combine 3 conductors of equal length in parallel, is the 
resulting size equal to 3 times the Circular Mil area? For example, #4 
is 42,080cm so are three #4's close to 2/0 (134,200cm) in size? Is it 
as simple as this? Assuming the conductors can not be removed 
individually, does this mean the current capacity is equal to the 
resulting wire size?


Thanks, Larry



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Re: [RE-wrenches] Parallel Wire combining

[Larry]

That's the part that is throwing me off. If I have 3 times the circular 
mil and compare that to a single conductor of similar circular mil, how 
do I have 3 times the ampacity? These are very different numbers.


Example: 1/0 @ 90c is 170 amps x 3 = 510 amps. 510A is what a conductor 
just over 750 AWG will carry. The circular mils of 3 1/0 cables is only 
325,050 or a 325 AWG cable which would be rated at about 330 amps.


So, is it 510 amps (3x the ampacity) or 330 amps (3x circular mil)? And, 
more importantly, why?


Larry

On 12/2/14 11:14 AM, Bill Turberville wrote:


I am sorry.  Bad fingers.  Three times the ampacity under the same 
conditions.


*From:*RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org 
<mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org>] *On Behalf Of *Larry

*Sent:* Tuesday, December 02, 2014 12:09 PM
*To:* RE-wrenches
*Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Parallel Wire combining

OK, let's use 1/0 for the example. 108,350 x 3 = 325,050. Do I now 
have a cable between 300 and 350 AWG?


Thank you,
  
Larry


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Re: [RE-wrenches] Parallel Wire combining

[Larry]

Hey boB,

This is the reference table I was using. They show 325 AWG and 325kCM 
refer to the same diameter cable but I should have used kcm for clarity.


If all insulation/temp rating is the same we are back to my original 
question. Anyone else able to explain this? To be safe I am leaning 
toward using the combined CM number to size for current rather than 3 
times the ampacity as that just makes no sense to me.



On 12/2/14 3:54 PM, b...@midnitesolar.com wrote:


The "area" of the conductor will be 3 times and you would think that 
the NEC Ampacity would also be 3 times
that of one conductor.   But one LARGE conductor with the same area 
might not be as high as you think
because of insulation.  I would think that ampacity of 3 cables in 
parallel would be 3 times.  But probably
not when you take a single cable of the 3X area out of the NEC table.  
(I haven't looked at this to verify)


Also,  Larry,  325 AWG 750 AWG (gauge) wire is a bit too small for 
this, don't you think ?


I know...  You mean circular mils...
boB






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Re: [RE-wrenches] Parallel Wire combining

[Larry]

You ask a simple question to this group and stunning brilliance floods 
my inbox. RE-Wrenches, You are truly amazing. Thanks to all that 
discussed this for the knowledge I have gained.


Larry


On 12/2/14 3:47 PM, Daniel Young wrote:


It all boils down to how ampacity is determined in the NEC.

Ampacity is really related to temperature as far as the NEC is 
concerned. The ampacity of a 1/0 wire at 90c is the constant current 
it can carry in free air (30 C air) and not achieve an internal 
temperature of more than 90 C. the 75 c ampacity is the same, the 
amperage it can carry while not going over 75 C.


Now, if you double the diameter of a circle, the circumference also 
doubles, but the cross sectional Area actually goes up much more (4x 
more in fact) because cross sectional area is based on the square of 
the diameter and circumference is simply based on the diameter ^1 power.


Wire dissipates heat from its surface only, so the dimension critical 
for the amount of heat a wire can dissipate is circumference, not 
cross sectional area. So even though the wire is larger and has a much 
lower resistance, the heat dissipating area does not increase by as 
much, so in the end the larger wire has a lower current carrying 
capacity per unit cross sectional area, than a smaller wire.


Here is an example that lets me keep the math simple: (the #’s are all 
round #’s and not based on real ampacities/resistances, just to keep 
the math simple.)


Wire 1:

A diameter of 10 units and can carry 100A through it and stay at 90C. 
It has a resistance of 1 ohm/1000ft.


Wire 2:

A diameter of 20 units. It has 4times the cross sectional area, and 
double the circumference (which means 2x the outer surface area) to 
dissipate heat. It has a resistance of .25 ohm/1000ft (1/4 that of 
wire 1 since it has 4x the amount of copper to carry current).


For wire 1 to stay at 90 C, it has to dissipate (P=I^2*R), 
P=(100amps^2)*1 omh=10,000 watts per unit of outer surface area.


So if Wire 2 has double the surface area to dissipate heat, it can 
dissipate about 2x the energy, or 20,000watts. So if we work it 
backwards (P=I^2*R is the same as I=sqrt[P/R]) 
I=sqrt[20,000/.25]=sqrt[8]=282amps


So wire 2 can handle (282amps/100amps)=2.8 times the amperage, even 
though it has 4times the cross sectional area, all because it only has 
2 times the surface are to get rid of heat. There are other factors 
with heat transfer that make the larger wire have even lower ampacity, 
but this demonstrates the main contributing factor.


[In the NEC table 310.15(B) we see that a 250kcmill copper wire 
handles 255A @75C, and a 100kcmill (4x the area) can only take 545A, 
or 2.2 times the current, so not too far from my example].


I hope the above helps more than it hurts.

With Regards,

Daniel Young,

NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional^TM : Cert #031508-90

NABCEP Certified Solar Heating Installer^TM : Cert #SH031409-13




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[RE-wrenches] Programmable Battery Charger

[Larry]

Wrenches,

Does anyone know of a 120/12 volt battery charger that can be programmed 
for absorb and float voltage and time in absorb mode? I have been 
needing this product for many years but I can only find it in inverters 
with built in chargers from Magnum, Outback, and Xantrex.


--
Thank you,

Larry Crutcher
Starlight Solar Power Systems

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Programmable Battery Charger

[Larry]

I must have missed the prior discussion about using PV CC. The concept 
sounds good but how many of you have done this and are there any 
pitfalls to be aware of? If I use a 20 amp bridge I should be able to 
produce 80 amps @ 14.4V. For continuous operation, will I need a large 
heat sink on it?


How does the unfiltered full wave peak voltage affect the CC over time? 
Are they (specifically Midnite) really designed to handle input waveform 
like this? I like this idea, especially if I can stack the controllers.


Thank you,

Larry

On 12/15/14 6:51 PM, jay peltz wrote:

Hi Kirk,

If you use a 200vdc midnight CC you'll have no issues.
When you rectify 120vac its up around 166vdc
( uses the peak vac which is around 170vac.)

For a 150vdc max controller ( midnite 150)  or a 144vdc ( outback FM) 
then a buck transformer or standard transformer is the trick to reduce 
the AC and hence the DC for these lower voltage units.


jay
peltz power
On Dec 15, 2014, at 5:38 PM, Kirk Herander wrote:

This has been discussed on this list in years past. It is possible to 
use an outback charge controller as a battery charger. You need to 
put the 120 AC into a bridge rectifier, then feed the 120 DC into the 
controller’s PV input. So you’ll have an 80 amp battery charger.

*Kirk Herander*
*VT Solar, LLC*
*/Proven PV provider since 1991/*
*www.vermontsolarnow.com*
dba Vermont Solar Engineering
NABCEP^TMInaugural Certificant
VT RE Incentive Program Partner
802.863.1202
*From:*RE-wrenches 
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org]*On Behalf Of*Dan 
Tittmann

*Sent:*Monday, December 15, 2014 8:18 PM
*To:*i...@windsine.org <mailto:i...@windsine.org>; RE-wrenches
*Subject:*Re: [RE-wrenches] Programmable Battery Charger
You can manually adjust Iotas with tweaking the potentiomiters while 
monitoring it with a god volt meter. But no time adjustment.

Daniel

Daniel Tittmann
CTO
Greenwired
www.greenwired.com <http://www.greenwired.com>
dan...@greenwired.com <mailto:dan...@greenwired.com>
707-923-2001 (office)
707-206-5088 (Cell)
On Mon, Dec 15, 2014 at 4:21 PM, Windsine Inc. <mailto:winds...@gmail.com>> wrote:


Check out Argus Technologies.

RoyR

On Dec 15, 2014 4:01 PM, "Larry" <mailto:la...@starlightsolar.com>> wrote:


Wrenches,

Does anyone know of a 120/12 volt battery charger that can be 
programmed for absorb and float voltage and time in absorb mode? I 
have been needing this product for many years but I can only find it 
in inverters with built in chargers from Magnum, Outback, and Xantrex.


--
Thank you,

Larry Crutcher
Starlight Solar Power Systems



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Re: [RE-wrenches] Programmable Battery Charger

[Larry]

boB and Jarmo, thanks for great explanations...So, let's dump that 
idea and go back to square one: a programmable 1.5kW charger for 12 volt 
batteries. I have been checking with all the charger manufacturers I can 
find and no one makes this product. Argus said no, Pro Charging said no, 
a few others, no.


Brian, an inverter/charger and remote will work great but that still 
represents $1000 cost and about $1350 to my customer for a 100 amp 
charger. But, so far, this is my only option.


A few years ago Magnum Energy told me they were working on a stand alone 
programmable charger but nothing yet. It probably does not cost much 
less to build than the inverter/charger does.


Thanks to all for the answers.

Thank you,

Larry

On 12/16/14 2:19 PM, b...@midnitesolar.com wrote:


Jarmo, you are absolutely correct.   This is another great reason  NOT 
to use an MPPT charge controller
as an AC sourced battery charger.   Also, if my instructions are not 
followed to a TEE, the CC WILL blow up !


The input capacitors are going to wear out MUCH sooner than a real 
charger because of the 60Hz or 120
Hz ripple shown in Jarmo's graph.  Capacitor ripple abuse was one 
answer to one of Larry's questions about long term

reliability.


Also, if the input diodes short, you are applying AC directly to the 
input capacitors and

will go POOF as well as the power section.

And you would NOT know that you needed an input power resistor first 
or possibly where
to even find one of the correct resistor values and power ratings if 
the input source is stiff.
This is the scariest problem in my mind  Too high of input max 
power voltage, overcurrent

and then, battery voltage regulation will overshoot without that resistor.

I would just spend the extra money and do this right in the first 
place and don't try to

cut corners on price.

Brian Teitelbaum had the best idea I think...  Just buy an inverter 
with a power factor corrected
charger like the newer Schneider SW inverter/charger (I think that was 
the one ?) or one of
the MSW Magnums.  Or, a decent charger if one exists.  Haven't seen 
the Argus/Alpha one.


MPPT charge controllers are really just NOT designed for this. 
(although they might work for a while).


In fact, Ryan from MidNite Solar blew up several Classics at first.

But knowing that some folks are going to try this, I thought it best 
to give at least some directions.


Thanks,
boB


On 12/16/2014 12:34 PM, jarmo.venalai...@schneider-electric.com wrote:

Hi:

I'm enjoying learning many new ways of looking at things and of 
practical solutions on this forum.  In that spirit, the only thing I 
would add to this discussion is that the power factor as seen by the 
AC source will be very poor.  In that regard, the larger the caps, 
the more stable the "DC" voltage, but the poorer the PF.


This will show up as much lower charging efficiency due to the way in 
which AC current is drawn by the bridge rectifier/capacitor circuit. 
 Here's an actual graph of how a bridge rectifier connected to a 
capacitor draws AC current,




The graph is from my past life a couple of decades ago back when I 
was studying.  It's not a conventional phase-shift PF problem, but 
rather a form factor PF problem.  It shows the current drawn by a 13" 
PC monitor of that era, before PF correction was mandated for all new 
products.  In this example the 'crest factor', (peak current as 
measured versus what it could have been if the current was drawn 
throughout the AC pulses, was about 4x).  Depending on the size of 
capacitor, it can be as high as 7x.


The practical effect on the wires and devices including the diodes 
and charge controller, is that a lot of heat is generated in their 
power components.  The source of the energy for that heat is the AC 
source and in cases where the AC source is a generator that 
translates to much higher fuel consumption, (in some cases over 30% 
more).


Out of my tests back then, I also discovered one practical 
recommendation.


If you are using bridge rectifiers connected to capacitors, do not 
have any length of wire and in particular no loop area in the wires 
between the bridge rectifier and capacitors.  Having wire/loop area 
introduces inductance into the circuit which behaves somewhat like an 
ignition coil due to the high speed reverse recovery period of the 
diodes; and this happens four times every AC cycle.  Given the right 
conditions the voltage spikes caused by that inductance/ignition coil 
like effect will make short work of the diodes and other components 
which are on the circuit.


The voltage spikes wont be a problem if the bridge rectifier is as 
close as possible to the capacitors, but due to reverse recovery 
effect, you'll still be stressing the parts and heating wires.


In my opinion, its ok to do this, but I wouldn't push p

Re: [RE-wrenches] Magnum System - Discharged Battery Bank

[Larry]

Corey,

The reason a cell or a battery in series will reverse polarity is due to 
that cell having a lower capacity than other cells. For example, you 
have a string of 100AH cells. One cell only has a capacity 70AH. If you 
discharge the string more than 70Ah, in order for that cell to continue 
passing current from the string, the voltage will reverse and begin 
climbing in a negative direction.


If it were me, I would pull that cell (cells) from your pack and test 
individually. Fully charge and do a controlled discharge rate. If it 
comes up less capacity than the others it should not be returned to the 
bank. For one reason, the entire string is limited to the lowest 
capacity battery. That battery will always be first to reach full charge 
and first to totally discharge, reversing polarity again. Another reason 
is while charging, it will be severely overcharged while you try to 
reach 100% SoC on the other batteries. If the battery is AGM or GEL, it 
can go into thermal runaway and may cause a fire.


At the very least, charge the bank to 100% SoC and measure the 
temperature of the cell(s) that had reversed. Measure before transition 
to Float charge. If they are hotter than the others, you know you still 
have a problem.



Larry Crutcher
Starlight Solar Power Systems

On 12/19/14 7:48 AM, Corey Shalanski wrote:

Update on my investigation:
I visited the customer's house yesterday to set up a pulse charger. 
Much to my surprise the three batteries that originally registered 
negative voltage are now reading positive. Does this make sense - are 
batteries able to shift between negative and positive voltages at such 
a low charge level?


I do not see any evidence of distorted cases.




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Re: [RE-wrenches] Magnum System - Discharged Battery Bank

[Larry]

Here's a drawing to illustrate. When the 70AH is drained, the string 
voltage will drop because that cell will go to 0 volts. Continued 
discharge will reverse the cell voltage. When charging, the 70AH will 
get full first and be overcharged.


On 12/19/14 9:44 AM, Larry wrote:

Corey,

The reason a cell or a battery in series will reverse polarity is due 
to that cell having a lower capacity than other cells. For example, 
you have a string of 100AH cells. One cell only has a capacity 70AH. 
If you discharge the string more than 70Ah, in order for that cell to 
continue passing current from the string, the voltage will reverse and 
begin climbing in a negative direction.


If it were me, I would pull that cell (cells) from your pack and test 
individually. Fully charge and do a controlled discharge rate. If it 
comes up less capacity than the others it should not be returned to 
the bank. For one reason, the entire string is limited to the lowest 
capacity battery. That battery will always be first to reach full 
charge and first to totally discharge, reversing polarity again. 
Another reason is while charging, it will be severely overcharged 
while you try to reach 100% SoC on the other batteries. If the battery 
is AGM or GEL, it can go into thermal runaway and may cause a fire.


At the very least, charge the bank to 100% SoC and measure the 
temperature of the cell(s) that had reversed. Measure before 
transition to Float charge. If they are hotter than the others, you 
know you still have a problem.



Larry Crutcher
Starlight Solar Power Systems

On 12/19/14 7:48 AM, Corey Shalanski wrote:

Update on my investigation:
I visited the customer's house yesterday to set up a pulse charger. 
Much to my surprise the three batteries that originally registered 
negative voltage are now reading positive. Does this make sense - are 
batteries able to shift between negative and positive voltages at 
such a low charge level?


I do not see any evidence of distorted cases.


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Re: [RE-wrenches] Magnum System - Discharged Battery Bank

[Larry]

I have installed/serviced thousands of battery based systems, I have not 
seen any reversed cells either, but I know how it happens.


Here's a thought on what could cause multiple lower capacity cells in a 
bank. From the moment a battery is not being charged, including newly 
assembled batteries, it is self discharging and lead sulfate is forming 
on the plates. If left uncharged or undercharged for months, which could 
be date of assembly to date of installation, the capacity could be 
affected due to ionic bonding (a level 2 sulfate bond blocking SO4 from 
finishing the electrochemical process by discharging its electron to 
Pb). Simply put, less surface area is available so there is less 
capacity. Unless the installation date is within 60 days or less of the 
manufacturing date, this could happen.


If these damaged batteries were then mixed with healthy ones, this could 
account for multiple low capacity cells and the scenario I described in 
my previous email would apply.


Larry Crutcher
Starlight Solar Power Systems

On 12/19/14 12:23 PM, Jay Peltz wrote:

I find it really curious.
I've been dealing with batteries for almost 20 yrs. I've seen so many 
dead, flat batteries, systems etc I can't count them all.

But I've yet to find a reversed one.
I understand the process.

I'm trying to understand how he could get multiple reversed batteries 
at one go?


Jay
Peltz power


Sent from my iPhone

On Dec 19, 2014, at 9:47 AM, jarmo.venalai...@schneider-electric.com 
<mailto:jarmo.venalai...@schneider-electric.com> wrote:



Hi:

This cell reversal ability of lead acid batteries gives good 
perspective on just how much you can mistreat them and beat them up 
and still have an expectation of "recovery".


Lithium cells on the other hand without a full range of protections 
would have long since filled the home with all kinds of interesting 
high temperature thermal events, gaseous compounds and chemicals, and 
there is no way you could get that magic smoke back into them.


JARMO
_
*
Jarmo Venalainen*  | *Schneider Electric **|  Solar Business*  | 
*CANADA*  | *Training & Development Specialist - Senior* *
Phone:* +604-422-2528  | *Fax:* +604-420-1591  | *Mobile:* 
+604-505-0291 *
Email:* _jarmo.venalainen@schneider-electric.com_ 
<mailto:jarmo.venalai...@schneider-electric.com> | 
*Site:*_www.SEsolar.com_ <http://www.sesolar.com/> | *Address:* 3700 
Gilmore Way, Burnaby, BC V5G4M1

_
_ <http://%20www.sesolar.com/>
*** Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail



From: 	Corey Shalanski <mailto:cshalan...@joule-energy.com>>
To: 	re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org 
<mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org>,

Date:   12/19/2014 06:48 AM
Subject:Re: [RE-wrenches] Magnum System - Discharged Battery Bank
Sent by: 	"RE-wrenches" <mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org>>







Update on my investigation:
I visited the customer's house yesterday to set up a pulse charger. 
Much to my surprise the three batteries that originally registered 
negative voltage are now reading positive. Does this make sense - are 
batteries able to shift between negative and positive voltages at 
such a low charge level?


I do not see any evidence of distorted cases.


On Thu, Dec 18, 2014 at 7:58 AM, <_jay@asis.com_ 
<mailto:j...@asis.com>> wrote:


I second tump.
Most likely a bad /cell battery took out the system.
As these are VRLA batteries, I'm curious do,the cases look damaged 
such as expanded or sunk in?


Jay
Peltz power

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Panels with 20.1% efficiency rating?

[Larry]

Lou,

Panasonic has 21.1% module efficiency. Too bad the US distribution is 
gone as they are not only efficient but the best performance available 
as well since the demise of Uni-Solar.


Larry

On 12/20/14 9:16 AM, Lou Russo wrote:

Wrenches,

I am looking for panels with a 20.1% efficiency rating or better, that 
are NOT Sun Power. My distributors can not acquire anything even near 
that. Any leads or resources to check would be greatly appreciated.


Thanks!
Aloha,

Lou Russo
(440) 345 6762


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Re: [RE-wrenches] Magnum System - Discharged Battery Bank

[Larry]

Right Bill. We recommend fully charging and then an equalization charge 
on all new flooded batteries. It takes many cycles on a new battery to 
achieve full saturation of all the active material. Because of this 
effect, I believe it is vital to reach 100% SoC regularly during the 
first few months of a battery life.


Larry
 


On 12/19/14 9:34 PM, William Dorsett wrote:


That’s the reason it is so essential to get as fresh a batch as 
possible and make sure all are fully charged before installation.


Bill Dorsett

Manhattan, KS

*From:*RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] 
*On Behalf Of *Larry

*Sent:* Friday, December 19, 2014 7:07 PM
*To:* RE-wrenches
*Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Magnum System - Discharged Battery Bank

I have installed/serviced thousands of battery based systems, I have 
not seen any reversed cells either, but I know how it happens.


Here's a thought on what could cause multiple lower capacity cells in 
a bank. >From the moment a battery is not being charged, including 
newly assembled batteries, it is self discharging and lead sulfate is 
forming on the plates. If left uncharged or undercharged for months, 
which could be date of assembly to date of installation, the capacity 
could be affected due to ionic bonding (a level 2 sulfate bond 
blocking SO4 from finishing the electrochemical process by discharging 
its electron to Pb). Simply put, less surface area is available so 
there is less capacity. Unless the installation date is within 60 days 
or less of the manufacturing date, this could happen.


If these damaged batteries were then mixed with healthy ones, this 
could account for multiple low capacity cells and the scenario I 
described in my previous email would apply.


  
Larry Crutcher

Starlight Solar Power Systems




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Re: [RE-wrenches] Panels with 20.1% efficiency rating?

[Larry]

Right August, it was the Panasonic HIT 240 that is 21.1% . The newer 
ones are less.


On 12/20/14 9:53 AM, August Goers wrote:


Hi Lou,

The LG Mono X NeON 305 W 60 cell is 18.6% according to their website. 
I think that is about the best non-SunPower option you can readily get 
these days.


http://www.lg.com/us/commercial/solar-panels/lg-LG305N1C-B3

Even Panasonic modules  are only 19.4%: 
http://eu-solar.panasonic.net/en/products/n-240-n-245/


Best, August

*From:*RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org 
] *On Behalf Of *Lou 
Russo

*Sent:* Saturday, December 20, 2014 8:16 AM
*To:* RE-wrenches
*Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Panels with 20.1% efficiency rating?

Wrenches,

I am looking for panels with a 20.1% efficiency rating or better, that 
are NOT Sun Power. My distributors can not acquire anything even near 
that. Any leads or resources to check would be greatly appreciated.


Thanks!

Aloha,

Lou Russo
(440) 345 6762



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Re: [RE-wrenches] Panels with 20.1% efficiency rating?

[Larry]

Hey Marco,

I pulled the data sheet to scan it and what did I see? CELL efficiency 
is 21.1%, not module efficiency. I guess I told all my customers 
wrongsheesh!


I will email you the data sheet.



Larry

On 12/20/14 10:41 AM, Marco Mangelsdorf wrote:


Can you please provide a spec sheet on this mod, Larry?

Thanks,

marco

*From:*RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] 
*On Behalf Of *Larry

*Sent:* Saturday, December 20, 2014 7:39 AM
*To:* RE-wrenches
*Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Panels with 20.1% efficiency rating?

Right August, it was the Panasonic HIT 240 that is 21.1% . The newer 
ones are less.


  


On 12/20/14 9:53 AM, August Goers wrote:

Hi Lou,

The LG Mono X NeON 305 W 60 cell is 18.6% according to their
website. I think that is about the best non-SunPower option you
can readily get these days.

http://www.lg.com/us/commercial/solar-panels/lg-LG305N1C-B3

Even Panasonic modules  are only 19.4%:
http://eu-solar.panasonic.net/en/products/n-240-n-245/

Best, August

*From:*RE-wrenches
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
<mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org>] *On Behalf Of
*Lou Russo
*Sent:* Saturday, December 20, 2014 8:16 AM
*To:* RE-wrenches
*Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Panels with 20.1% efficiency rating?

Wrenches,

I am looking for panels with a 20.1% efficiency rating or better,
that are NOT Sun Power. My distributors can not acquire anything
even near that. Any leads or resources to check would be greatly
appreciated.

Thanks!

Aloha,

Lou Russo
(440) 345 6762




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[RE-wrenches] PV calculator for off grid in South Africa

[Larry]

Does anyone know of an online calculator tool for battery based system 
in S. Africa?


--
Thank you,

Larry Crutcher
Starlight Solar Power Systems

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Re: [RE-wrenches] wire sizing question

[Larry]

Jay,

Divide inverter capacity by LVD then divide by full load efficiency. 
Example: 4000 Watt inverter shuts down at 42 volts, efficiency 85% = 
4000/42 = 95A/.85 = 111 Amps. Then it depends on the insulation and 
conductor type and the corrections for ambient temp.


How can you not consider voltage drop? This is important for the surge 
capability of inverters. If the battery-inverter run is long you could 
have significant voltage drop for a wire correctly rated for ampacity.


Larry Crutcher
Starlight Solar Power Systems

On 1/1/15 7:23 PM, jay peltz wrote:

Happy new year all.

I have a question on wire sizing for the following.

250 amp breaker, in a UL enclosure ( say midnite or outback etc)
conduit from battery box to enclosure

I'm wondering how folks size this for ampacity not voltage drop.

thanks

jay

peltz power





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Re: [RE-wrenches] wire sizing question

[Larry]

Wow, Jarmo! That is some incredible workmanship and a great way to 
interconnect multiple inverters and chargers. You can tell they have 
done this a few times. Thanks for sharing those photos.


Larry Crutcher
Starlight Solar Power Systems

On 1/3/15 9:16 AM, jarmo.venalai...@schneider-electric.com wrote:

Hi:

This link takes you to a site in Romania so you (likely) wont be able 
to read the text, but  it does have a lot of good pictures.


This installer has been using XW since about 2007 and has a tons of 
experience.  I like what he does with the DC wiring/busbars.  The 
breakers are in the box below the inverters and charge controllers.


http://customer.lpelectric.ro/doc/sibiu2/sibiu2_28kw_fotovoltaic.html

JARMO
_
*
Jarmo Venalainen*  | *Schneider Electric **|  Solar Business*  | 
*CANADA*  | *Training & Development Specialist - Senior* *

Phone:* +604-422-2528  | *Fax:* +604-420-1591  | *Mobile:* +604-505-0291 *
Email:* _jarmo.venalainen@schneider-electric.com_ 
<mailto:jarmo.venalai...@schneider-electric.com> | 
*Site:*_www.SEsolar.com_ <http://www.sesolar.com/> | *Address:* 3700 
Gilmore Way, Burnaby, BC V5G4M1

_
_<http://%20www.sesolar.com/>
*** Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail



From:   drake.chamber...@redwoodalliance.org
To: "RE-wrenches" ,
Date:   01/02/2015 05:18 PM
Subject:Re: [RE-wrenches] wire sizing question
Sent by:"RE-wrenches" 






4/0 copper is good for a 24V, 4000 W inverter. What is being used for
multiple inverters?

I've paralleled 4/0 into outback boxes using 2, 2" PVC conduits. It gets
pretty messy trying to put 4 sets of 4/0s into enclosures and battery
boxes (although I have worked on such systems). Does anyone have clean
solutions for these systems?

Thanks,

Drake





> Some other things:  If you keep the conduit less than 24" long, which is
> recommended anyway for main battery connections, the conduit fill
> requirements don't apply. (see exception: 310.15(B)3a2)
> Using table 310.15(B)16 yeilds 230 amps for 4/0 at 75 C.  Then 240.6
> lists 250 amp as the next standard size of OCPD which is allowed to be
> used by 240.4(B)  So you can just justify 4/0.
> Further, many manufacturers (like Midnite) use the open air ampacity
> table: 310.15(B)17, since the cable is not "in conduit" and 4/0 cable at
> 75 C is rated to 360 amps.
> The Free Air interpretation is not completely substantiated in the code
> from my read of it though.  Maybe someone more knowledgable could cite
> the chapter and verse that defines when the free air rating can and
> cannot be used.
> Also remember those breakers are 100% duty cycle rated, and that the
> inverter usually can't run any where close to 250 amps continuously.
> Bottomline is we've been using 4/0 with 250 amp breakers for almost 20
> years, and I've never seen or heard of a problem.
>
> R.Ray Walters
> CTO, Solarray, Inc
> Nabcep Certified PV Installer,
> Licensed Master Electrician
> Solar Design Engineer
> 303 505-8760
>
> On 1/1/2015 7:23 PM, jay peltz wrote:
>> Happy new year all.
>>
>> I have a question on wire sizing for the following.
>>
>> 250 amp breaker, in a UL enclosure ( say midnite or outback etc)
>> conduit from battery box to enclosure
>>
>> I'm wondering how folks size this for ampacity not voltage drop.
>>
>> thanks
>>
>> jay
>>
>> peltz power
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Off Grid Inverter Replacement Questions

[Larry]

Dan and Allan,

I was not going to comment on this thread since my info is a few years 
old. But since you brought up recent failures I will tell my experience. 
A few year ago we were having failures with new FM60 and FM80 
controllers. Brand new DOA controllers were replaced with used, warranty 
repaired controllers. One customer had 3 controllers replaced in 30 
days. After too many calls to Outback and not one penny in compensation, 
we totally quit selling all Outback products.


Since then we have sold hundreds of Magnum Energy inverters. The only 
failure we have had was very recently with their new MSH series. For 
charge controllers we switched to Midnight Classic. We install 10-15 
Classic 150's per month. We have had 1 DOA but Midnite responded well 
and sent a new replacement.


Attention manufacturers...Customer service is everything to me.

Larry Crutcher
Starlight Solar Power Systems

On 2/9/15 12:14 PM, Dan Tittmann wrote:
AS someone who works almost exclusively with off grid battery based 
inverters for years.  I would recommend staying away from the outback 
line of inverters.  We are seeing outback failures in units that are 
only 2 to 3 years old, once you get through to the Tech Support 
generally a 30 to 40 min hold time and forget about the "call you back 
feature" unless you want a call back in three days.  The board 
replacements that we get are a total crap shoot.  I have had 
replacement boards fail within minutes and many of them within in 
months and there is no warranty on the boards.


I would go with Magun Hybrid as it is a 120 V AC unit and has load 
assist like the old SW's.  We are always sorry to replace the old SW 
units but after 20+ years of service I guess they have put in their 
work.  Magnum has provided us with reliable service since we started 
installing them 6 Years ago.  I hope they keep their product as 
reliable with the new owners.


my two cents
Daniel



Daniel Tittmann
CTO
Greenwired
www.greenwired.com <http://www.greenwired.com>
dan...@greenwired.com <mailto:dan...@greenwired.com>
707-923-2001 (office)
707-206-5088 (Cell)


On Fri, Jan 30, 2015 at 8:02 PM, Allan Sindelar 
mailto:al...@sindelarsolar.com>> wrote:


Esteemed Wrenches,

What I want to know, please, are answers to two+
questions: 1) what's the real scoop? what is now made where?
and 2) what actual experiences, specifically product failures,
have any of you had that directly relate to changes directly
attributable to overseas production? In other words, how much
of this is real and how much is rumor?


-- 


*Allan Sindelar*
al...@sindelarsolar.com <mailto:al...@sindelarsolar.com>
NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional
NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional
New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician
Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc.
*505 780-2738  cell*

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[RE-wrenches] Sunwize or industrial PV modules

[Larry]

Hello Wrenches,

Does anyone know where to by small 20 to 75 Watt modules like Sunwize 
used to sell? They were what I considered industrial grade with a 
junction box. I checked with Soligent but they don't have any.


Thanks, Larry

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Re: [RE-wrenches] SunWise or Small 12 or 24 Volts Modules

[Larry]

Hi Tom,

For some reason your link goes nowhere and when I Google "sunlandusa" 
get nothing related to PV solar.


Thank you,

Larry Crutcher

On 2/24/15 4:00 PM, Tom Lane wrote:


SunLand USA at www.sunlandusa.com has a large range of 5 to 180 watt PV modules 
that are all 12 or 24 volt . The modules are well made and their service is 
great . They only sell 12 and 24 watt mono  and poly modules . I have been 
happy with their 10 , 20 , 25 , 45 , and 75 , 80 , 85 , 120,140, 160 I have 
purchased and their other 12 and 24 volt equipment . GatorTom
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Uni-Solar 68w Laminate panel removal

[Larry]

Hi Lou,

There should be two screws at the top of the module. Remove these and on 
a very hot day you should be able to start at the top edge and peel it 
down. Don't hurry. Once started, a heat gun to the bottom will speed it 
up. If some stick-um gets left on the roof, you'll need a solvent to 
loosen it (can't remember, WD40?).


So, after all that effort you will have a used Uni-Solar 68 Watt PV mod 
that is worth about $50 to someone that knows about the performance of 
those amazing modules.



Larry Crutcher
Starlight Solar Power Systems

On 3/3/15 4:33 PM, Lou Russo wrote:

Wrenches,

Has anyone ever removed these from a metal standing seam roof? If so, 
was the module or roof damaged? If not, then is there a market for 
these used panels?


Thanks for any insight.
Aloha,

Lou Russo




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[RE-wrenches] Trace SWRC remote

[Larry]

Does anyone know where I can find a working SWRC remote for Trace PS and 
SW inverters?


--
Thank you,

Larry Crutcher
Starlight Solar Power Systems

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[RE-wrenches] Load testing Lithium battery bank

[Larry]

I am repairing and restoring a pair of poorly designed lithium-ion 
battery bank that suffered over discharge, damaging many cells. After 
cell replacement I need to perform a discharge test with a 10kW load to 
verify the remaining capacity. The battery voltage is 105 volts @ 100% 
SoC and 89.6 volts @ 0%


I would like advice on how I can create an economical 10kW load. Water 
heating element? Wire wound resistors? Are there any GT inverters that 
will operate at these voltages?


Thanks.

--


Larry Crutcher
Starlight Solar Power Systems

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Load testing Lithium battery bank

[Larry]

Hey Ray,

I remember seeing huge banks of light bulbs as loads back in the early 
70's.


I need to test the entire bank as one unit as the first cell of 32 to 
reach 2.8 volts determines the capacity for the bank. I just saw Home 
Depot has a 2kW 120 volt water heater for $10. Guess I need to do some 
welding.


Thank you,

Larry Crutcher
Starlight Solar Power Systems

On 3/17/15 11:59 AM, Ray Walters wrote:

Hi Larry,

I think you hit on the best load already: water heater elements rated 
for 120 v.  We have also used dump loads for wind turbines like the 
air heating elements from Bergey, but they are only about 1 kW each.  
Another possible source are the resistor banks for old golf carts 
(before they had controllers, they used resistor banks to operate at 
slow speeds)
A very long time ago, an inverter company had a demonstration that 
used a large bank of incandescent light bulbs.  They used to make a 
300 watt bulb for mining, so 33 of those would work.  (maybe a few 
more bulbs, since your voltage is bit lower than 120 v)  Cheap 
electric space heaters would work too.  You also might look around at 
an electronics surplus store.
Whatever you do, it sounds like a lot of time and work to set up. Any 
chance of doing a smaller load test for subsets of the total bank?  
You might be able to use a standard 12 v battery load tester then.


Good Luck.

R.Ray Walters
CTO, Solarray, Inc
Nabcep Certified PV Installer,
Licensed Master Electrician
Solar Design Engineer
303 505-8760

On 3/17/2015 12:41 PM, Larry wrote:
I am repairing and restoring a pair of poorly designed lithium-ion 
battery bank that suffered over discharge, damaging many cells. After 
cell replacement I need to perform a discharge test with a 10kW load 
to verify the remaining capacity. The battery voltage is 105 volts @ 
100% SoC and 89.6 volts @ 0%


I would like advice on how I can create an economical 10kW load. 
Water heating element? Wire wound resistors? Are there any GT 
inverters that will operate at these voltages?


Thanks.



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Re: [RE-wrenches] Load testing Lithium battery bank

[Larry]

I was thinking of mounting the water heat elements into an aluminum 
plate, laying the plate flat over a 55 gallon drum and filling the water 
level up to the plate. Stratified water may make the top pretty hot but 
I guess it will work.


Larry

On 3/17/15 1:07 PM, Ray Walters wrote:
Those look like your solution.  Also water can take more heat with 
less trouble than air heaters.  I've had air heaters start melting 
things, etc.  You can just install those in the side of a 55 gal 
barrel with a bulkhead fitting, or yes, weld the appropriate plumbing 
fitting to the side of the barrel. Might even be able to install them 
into a section of pipe with  Ts and run water through it to cool the 
elements.


R.Ray Walters
CTO, Solarray, Inc
Nabcep Certified PV Installer,
Licensed Master Electrician
Solar Design Engineer
303 505-8760

On 3/17/2015 1:40 PM, Larry wrote:

Hey Ray,

I remember seeing huge banks of light bulbs as loads back in the 
early 70's.


I need to test the entire bank as one unit as the first cell of 32 to 
reach 2.8 volts determines the capacity for the bank. I just saw Home 
Depot has a 2kW 120 volt water heater for $10. Guess I need to do 
some welding.


Thank you,

Larry Crutcher
Starlight Solar Power Systems

On 3/17/15 11:59 AM, Ray Walters wrote:

Hi Larry,

I think you hit on the best load already: water heater elements 
rated for 120 v.  We have also used dump loads for wind turbines 
like the air heating elements from Bergey, but they are only about 1 
kW each.  Another possible source are the resistor banks for old 
golf carts (before they had controllers, they used resistor banks to 
operate at slow speeds)
A very long time ago, an inverter company had a demonstration that 
used a large bank of incandescent light bulbs.  They used to make a 
300 watt bulb for mining, so 33 of those would work. (maybe a few 
more bulbs, since your voltage is bit lower than 120 v)  Cheap 
electric space heaters would work too.  You also might look around 
at an electronics surplus store.
Whatever you do, it sounds like a lot of time and work to set up. 
Any chance of doing a smaller load test for subsets of the total 
bank?  You might be able to use a standard 12 v battery load tester 
then.


Good Luck.

R.Ray Walters
CTO, Solarray, Inc
Nabcep Certified PV Installer,
Licensed Master Electrician
Solar Design Engineer
303 505-8760

On 3/17/2015 12:41 PM, Larry wrote:
I am repairing and restoring a pair of poorly designed lithium-ion 
battery bank that suffered over discharge, damaging many cells. 
After cell replacement I need to perform a discharge test with a 
10kW load to verify the remaining capacity. The battery voltage is 
105 volts @ 100% SoC and 89.6 volts @ 0%


I would like advice on how I can create an economical 10kW load. 
Water heating element? Wire wound resistors? Are there any GT 
inverters that will operate at these voltages?


Thanks.



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Re: [RE-wrenches] Load testing Lithium battery bank

[Larry]

Hi Jarmo,

One of the reasons I chose to sell and install GBS batteries is the 
chemistry is safer, they have vent caps (like AGM) and they offer an 
integrated solution where the battery, EMS/BMS and CPU are all designed 
specifically for each other instead of adding various parts from 
different manufacturers. The chemistry is LFMP (lithium iron manganese) 
not LFP. There are seven monitored fault events, including temperature, 
current and voltage, that will disconnect the battery from any load or 
any charge source.


Since we are installing in RV's, there are multiple charge sources and 
all must be controlled. The systems I design do this very well. Also, 
our charge and discharge rates are far lower than the industry normally 
expects; rarely reaching .5C.


I have seen private videos of destructive testing of GBS cells. Steel 
rods fired through entire packs; slow crush tests from top and sides, 
impact tests, even cells blown away on a gun range (that was more for 
fun I think as not too likely you will experience that). No fire, no 
thermal events. Bottom line for me is these are likely the safest 
Lithium battery I can offer. Many customers have already had shut down 
events because they were not being responsible. A simple reset and 
they're back in business.


What was the lithium chemistry that you had trouble with?

Thank you,

Larry Crutcher

On 3/17/15 12:49 PM, jarmo.venalai...@schneider-electric.com wrote:

Hi:

Please be careful when working with solar system size Lithium packs on 
the cell level.


We have been doing on-going testing with Lion battery packs from 
various suppliers and even with their built in temp sensors and other 
BMS circuits, have already had two "thermal events".


Lion is very unforgiving with regards low state of charge, high state 
of charge, temperature (110F is the max temp at which they should be 
charged and 140F is the max they can handle).


Given the low thermal mass of Lion cells, a high rate of discharge or 
charge quickly gets the cell temperature into the 110F+ range.


As soon as you cross the line things start happening and if the BMS 
doesn't put a stop to it by turning the battery pack off, it's a very 
quick slide down the hill from there.


JARMO
_
*
Jarmo Venalainen*  | *Schneider Electric **|  Xantrex Brand*  | 
*CANADA*  | *Sales Application Engineer* *
Phone:* +604-422-2528  | *Tech Support:* 800-670-0707  | *Mobile:* 
+604-505-0291 *
Email:* _jarmo.venalainen@schneider-electric.com_ 
<mailto:jarmo.venalai...@schneider-electric.com> | 
*Site:*_www.Xantrex.com_ <http://www.xantrex.com/> | *Address:* 3700 
Gilmore Way, Burnaby, BC V5G4M1

<http://www.xantrexrebate.com/>
<http://www.xantrex.com/> 	<https://www.facebook.com/Xantrex> 
<https://twitter.com/Xantrex> 	<https://twitter.com/Xantrex>





*** Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail



From:   Larry 
To: RE-wrenches ,
Date:   03/17/2015 11:41 AM
Subject:[RE-wrenches] Load testing Lithium battery bank
Sent by:"RE-wrenches" 




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Re: [RE-wrenches] Load testing Lithium battery bank

[Larry]

Hi Jarmo,

I agree and recognize your urgency in making us aware of the proper use 
and charging of Li-ion batteries as well as the dangers of mistreating 
them. As an early adopter myself, I am very cautious in my approach even 
to the point of refusing to sell to some customers. Lithium battery 
technology is in a state of rapid evolution.


Not wanting to harp on the GBS brand that I sell, but one of your points 
goes to prove the safety of their integrated approach. You said, "...all 
it takes is one poor connection or broken temp sensor on one cell." The 
GBS EMS system has cell level sensors for temperature (and other data) 
and each sensor board requires constant communication with the CPU. If 
the EMS fails to communicate any information with any cell, the CPU 
immediately shuts down both safety solenoids, disconnecting the battery. 
With the non integrated systems, failures that don't report information 
to the management system could lead to disaster.


Please keep offering us the knowledge you are gaining as I am a firm 
believer that Lithium technology is a large part of the inevitable 
replacement the aged lead battery.


Larry Crutcher
Starlight Solar Power Systems
 


On 3/17/15 6:11 PM, jarmo.venalai...@schneider-electric.com wrote:

Hi:

I may sound like I'm a detractor against using Lion, but that's not it.

What I want to bring to light is that, being as the technology is new, 
not all the issues are known and there are things to learn for all 
early adopters in the foreseeable future.


From what I can gather the framework for the issues lies in that Lion 
technology is based on intercalation, that is, a reversible insertion 
and removal of Li molecules into compounds with microscopically 
layered structures.  This predicates that there must be no chemical 
reaction in the battery, but rather only the shelving of the highly 
reactive Li ions.  If there are any chemical reactions taking place, 
then in the least the battery performance is compromised and in the 
most there is a thermal event or worse


There are some very robust Lion battery packs, a favorite of mine 
being from a local company from Vancouver, (well Richmond, which is a 
suburb of Vancouver).  It's a small company, but they have designed, 
developed, built and successfully approved their 6 kWh Lion pack for 
use in large car ferries in Scandinavia.  The ferries have stacks of 
these packs in the 100's, in the MWh size.  It can be done.


What I'm advocating is that its best to work with companies that have 
the time, interest and resources to work through the wrinkles, and if 
not, then carefully put in reliable and precise BMS circuitry which 
includes things like fail safe circuits for single point failures of 
critical sensing circuits, the foremost of which is cell temperature. 
 When you're pushing large currents, all it takes is one poor 
connection or broken temp sensor on one cell..


Here's a link to the Lion battery pack manufacturer, Corvus,

http://corvus-energy.com/

I know they do a good job, but they're not cheap, for now...

JARMO

*
Jarmo Venalainen*  | *Schneider Electric **|  Xantrex Brand*  | 
*CANADA*  | *Sales Application Engineer* *
Phone:* +604-422-2528  | *Tech Support:* 800-670-0707  | *Mobile:* 
+604-505-0291 *
Email:* _jarmo.venalainen@schneider-electric.com_ 
<mailto:jarmo.venalai...@schneider-electric.com> | 
*Site:*_www.Xantrex.com_ <http://www.xantrex.com/> | *Address:* 3700 
Gilmore Way, Burnaby, BC V5G4M1

<http://www.xantrexrebate.com/>
<http://www.xantrex.com/> 	<https://www.facebook.com/Xantrex> 
<https://twitter.com/Xantrex> 	<https://twitter.com/Xantrex>







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Re: [RE-wrenches] Load testing Lithium battery bank

[Larry]

Hi Chris,

Thanks for the recommendation. I received a quote from Comrent$1800 
to rent a load for 1 week. Ouch! I'll go with the $10 water elements and 
a little fabrication time. I have AH counters and controllers to stop 
the discharge.


Thank you,

Larry Crutcher
Starlight Solar Power Systems

On 3/17/15 2:38 PM, Chris Mason wrote:
Load banks are for rent, I am in the generator business and it is a 
common requirement to provide a load bank upon installation.

http://www.comrent.com/Solutions/load-bank-rentals.html


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Re: [RE-wrenches] Load testing Lithium battery bank

[Larry]

Not at all. The EMS boards are well built and are protected under a 
cover with the terminals. I have not had any failures of the EMS boards 
or any failure to communicate with them.


Larry

On 3/18/15 4:52 PM, Bruce Erickson wrote:
If a communication failure with a single cell (not even an actual 
fault) can cause total battery shutdown, does that lead to a lot of 
nuisance tripping?


*Bruce Erickson*
Mendocino Solar Service
PO Box 1252
Mendocino, CA 95460
707-937-1701
707-937-1741 fax
br...@mendocinosolar.com <mailto:br...@mendocinosolar.com>

/Celebrating 20 Years in Solar!/1994-2014







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Re: [RE-wrenches] Charging Multiple Battery Banks

[Larry]

Keep in mind that the Midnite controller has a combined PV and bat. 
negative and the Blue Sky requires isolated PV and bat. negative.


Larry Crutcher
Starlight Solar Power Systems

On 3/24/15 6:11 PM, Jeremy Rodriguez wrote:
The thought was to charge the batteries for a new building utilizing 
an SW4024 with new classic controller and new L A batteries, and once 
those batteries are charged send the PV to the house system which is 
the 48v setup with dual outback inverters and dual SB3048 CCs.  Lead 
acid batteries as well. 3 years old

I've never had this come up in 16 years!


Jeremy Rodriguez
All Solar, Inc.
1463 M
Penrose Colorado 81240

Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand!

On Mar 24, 2015, at 5:31 PM, "Ray Walters" <mailto:r...@solarray.com>> wrote:


What's the reasoning behind two different battery banks at different 
voltages? What is the other equipment involved: batteries type, age, 
inverters, etc.?

R.Ray Walters
CTO, Solarray, Inc
Nabcep Certified PV Installer,
Licensed Master Electrician
Solar Design Engineer
303 505-8760
On 3/24/2015 5:07 PM, Jeremy Rodriguez wrote:

It would be 2kw of PV

Jeremy
All Solar
Penrose, CO


Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2015 12:17:20 -1000
From: jerrysgarag...@gmail.com
To: re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Charging Multiple Battery Banks

How big of a system are you looking at as some of the smaller charge 
controllers are auto sensing

Jerry

On Tue, Mar 24, 2015 at 12:11 PM, Jeremy Rodriguez 
mailto:allsolarjer...@msn.com>> wrote:


Wrenches,
I have a client that wants to charge a 24v battery bank and a
48v bank with the same array. Different charge controllers, with
some type of relay is what I was thinking, and using the
controller's aux. 12v output for the relay control.
The primary battery to be charged would be the 24v bank, then
once it is fully charged, divert the pv to the secondary
controller at the 48v bank.

Any comments or recommendations on this would be helpful.

Jeremy Rodriguez
All Solar Inc.
Penrose, CO

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Charging Multiple Battery Banks

[Larry]

The Blue Sky should still work as long as he switches PV positive and 
negative. However, I like the idea of charging just the 24 volt system 
and feeding AC to the Outbacks to charge the 48 volt bank. A little more 
loss but mush easier to implement. You could easily control when AC is 
fed to the 48 volt system based on voltage of the 24 volt battery.


Larry

On 3/25/15 10:24 AM, Ray Walters wrote:

Hi Jeremy;

I usually would combine both buildings all into one system, KISS 
principle, and also less cost. Later when those batteries die, replace 
with a properly sized bank.  I also wouldn't be building a new system 
around an SW4024, those are getting really dated. Great inverter, but 
they don't last forever.  They have excellent resell value on Ebay for 
folks that need replacements in dual and quad systems.
Having said that, Jerry's idea of 2 controllers on one array sounds 
like it would work, but not with Blue Sky because of the grounding as 
Larry mentioned.

R.Ray Walters
CTO, Solarray, Inc
Nabcep Certified PV Installer,
Licensed Master Electrician
Solar Design Engineer
303 505-8760
On 3/25/2015 10:36 AM, Larry wrote:
Keep in mind that the Midnite controller has a combined PV and bat. 
negative and the Blue Sky requires isolated PV and bat. negative.

Larry Crutcher
Starlight Solar Power Systems
On 3/24/15 6:11 PM, Jeremy Rodriguez wrote:
The thought was to charge the batteries for a new building utilizing 
an SW4024 with new classic controller and new L A batteries, and 
once those batteries are charged send the PV to the house system 
which is the 48v setup with dual outback inverters and dual SB3048 
CCs.  Lead acid batteries as well. 3 years old

I've never had this come up in 16 years!


Jeremy Rodriguez
All Solar, Inc.
1463 M
Penrose Colorado 81240

Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand!

On Mar 24, 2015, at 5:31 PM, "Ray Walters" <mailto:r...@solarray.com>> wrote:


What's the reasoning behind two different battery banks at 
different voltages? What is the other equipment involved: batteries 
type, age, inverters, etc.?

R.Ray Walters
CTO, Solarray, Inc
Nabcep Certified PV Installer,
Licensed Master Electrician
Solar Design Engineer
303 505-8760
On 3/24/2015 5:07 PM, Jeremy Rodriguez wrote:

It would be 2kw of PV

Jeremy
All Solar
Penrose, CO


Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2015 12:17:20 -1000
From: jerrysgarag...@gmail.com
To: re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Charging Multiple Battery Banks

How big of a system are you looking at as some of the smaller 
charge controllers are auto sensing

Jerry

On Tue, Mar 24, 2015 at 12:11 PM, Jeremy Rodriguez 
mailto:allsolarjer...@msn.com>> wrote:


Wrenches,
I have a client that wants to charge a 24v battery bank and a
48v bank with the same array. Different charge controllers,
with some type of relay is what I was thinking, and using the
controller's aux. 12v output for the relay control.
The primary battery to be charged would be the 24v bank, then
once it is fully charged, divert the pv to the secondary
controller at the 48v bank.

Any comments or recommendations on this would be helpful.

Jeremy Rodriguez
All Solar Inc.
Penrose, CO



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Re: [RE-wrenches] ITC

[Larry]

On 3/27/15 1:04 PM, Gary Willett wrote:
but if a business owned PV system is involved, and does not 
involve a personal 1040 tax return /_or a residential PV system, the 
30% residential energy credit does not apply_/ - the Form 3468 
investment tax credit is used.


Regards,

Gary Willett
Icarus Solar
Irving TX



Hi Gary,

The PV system does not have to be a residential system to qualify. The 
tax credit applies to any "dwelling unit" owned by the individual 
including a recreational vehicle. We have had hundreds of customers take 
the credit over the last few years for systems installed on RV's.


Thank you,

Larry Crutcher
Starlight Solar Power Systems
www.starlightsolar.com
(928) 342-9103


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Re: [RE-wrenches] ITC - updated question on post-2016

[Larry]

The tax credit can be carried back one year and forward 20 years. Unless 
the credit is extended, it applies to systems placed in service on any 
dwelling unit by Dec. 31, 2016.



Thank you,

Larry Crutcher
Starlight Solar Power Systems

On 3/27/15 4:41 PM, August Goers wrote:


Hi Wrenches,

Since we’re on the topic of the ITC, I have another question someone 
might be able to help with. Assuming that a system is placed into 
service prior to the end of 2016, it should qualify for the 30% tax 
credit. Some people do not have enough tax liability to take the whole 
credit in the same year of the installation and I believe they 
typically have 5 years to take the credit. Do this apply to post-2016 
as well? In other words, if a system is placed into service in 2016 
but the owner doesn’t have a tax appetite until sometime after 2016, 
can they still take the tax credit (within 5 years)? I’m assuming the 
answer is yes, but thought some of you might be more versed in the tax 
code.


Thanks,

August



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Re: [RE-wrenches] Gen preheat in cold climates

[Larry]

About the carb heat idea...LP is a liquid at -44°F. The liquid does not 
combust, it must be vaporized. As the ambient temperature drops closer 
to the LP liquid temperature, there would be a reduction in how fast 
liquid is vaporizing and therefor a reduction in volume. What you need 
in cold weather is enough volume to maintain at least 11" wc while 
cranking or running the engine. You can test the vapor pressure with a 
manometer while cranking to verify if this is the problem.


If this is the reason the engine does not run, my thoughts are that 
heating the LP regulator would be much more economical from an energy 
standpoint, than heating the whole engine block. Perhaps an insulated 
enclosure with silicone heaters appropriately attached would work. They 
are available in many DC or AC and at various voltages.


Larry Crutcher
Starlight Solar Power Systems

On 4/2/15 10:34 PM, Allan Sindelar wrote:

Gary,
Mac's approach is intelligent and will work well, as an automated 
system with the right hardware. We took a quite different approach on 
a somewhat similar scenario in 2009.


This was a Kohler 8.5REZ, with the electric carb heater and AC charter 
for the starting battery. No block heater, but that could have been 
handled the same way. The inverter was a Magnum MS4024PAE, but that 
doesn't matter here. When we ran the bundle of gennie output 
conductors, we added a separate load circuit conductor, on its own 
breaker in the system E-Panel. Here's an excerpt from the original 
proposal description about our approach:


The unit uses an electronic generator controller with modest
(estimated at 200-700 mA, depending on state of operation) draw on
the starting battery. This controller drops to minimal “sleep”
draw automatically after 48 hours of non-operation. This generator
does not have a starting battery charging coil, but rather uses a
separate AC battery trickle charger to maintain the battery. I
will install a 20W PV module and small charge controller on the
generator to keep the starting battery charged. I will also
install the AC charger to operate whenever the generator is
running. While this combined setup has worked successfully for
other installers with whom I have spoken, if this proves
insufficient I can later add a switch and relay to allow the
charger to also operate off of inverter AC if ever needed.

The unit also requires a built-in carburetor heater to operate
during cold weather. This heater is normally controlled by a
thermostat to conservatively come on at or below 40°F, which would
mean that it would operate nearly continuously during Taos’ winter
months, draining the PV system. My solution is to put the
carburetor heater on a manual mechanical one-hour time switch
located at the generator; you will activate the heater through
this switch 15-30 minutes before starting the generator.

This may not work for you. This is a modern doublewide serving as a 
seasonal family meeting place, rather than a full time residence. With 
our usual sunny winters, we figure that if nobody is there, loads are 
minimal, and we don't want automatic (unattended) generator operation. 
I think we used a DG WP box inside the generator enclosure, with a 
mechanical timer (maybe one-hour) controlling a GFCI receptacle, with 
carb heater and battery charger plugged in.


I hope that gives you some ideas you can use.

*Allan Sindelar*
al...@sindelarsolar.com <mailto:al...@sindelarsolar.com>
NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional
NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional
New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician
Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc.
*505 780-2738 cell*

**




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Re: [RE-wrenches] Gen preheat in cold climates

[Larry]

Hi Chris,

LP will boil (vaporize) at -44° so until your ambient temperature is 
below that it is vaporizing. Heating the tank will increase the liquid 
and vapor pressure in the tank but it is still liquid, not vapor, that 
is plumbed to a cold regulator, or vaporizer if they have one, where the 
vaporization takes place for the engine. I can't see that increase tank 
temperature would solve the issue.


In 1981 I bought a truck with dual fuel capability. The J-valve 
regulator had liquid heater lines from the coolant system to heat the LP 
liquid at the point of vaporization. The tank was in the bed and never 
heated. In very cold weather I had to start the engine on gas then 
switch to LP after hot water hit the regulator. All worked well with a 
warm regulator.


Larry

On 4/3/15 10:56 AM, Chris Mason wrote:
Heating the regulator won't help if the propane is not vapourizing. 
You would need to heat the tank.
However, you do not need to heat it very much, just enough to let it 
vapourize. Think about putting it somewhere with a little heat, or 
burying it.


On Fri, Apr 3, 2015 at 1:51 PM, Larry <mailto:la...@starlightsolar.com>> wrote:


About the carb heat idea...LP is a liquid at -44°F. The liquid
does not combust, it must be vaporized. As the ambient temperature
drops closer to the LP liquid temperature, there would be a
reduction in how fast liquid is vaporizing and therefor a
reduction in volume. What you need in cold weather is enough
volume to maintain at least 11" wc while cranking or running the
engine. You can test the vapor pressure with a manometer while
cranking to verify if this is the problem.

If this is the reason the engine does not run, my thoughts are
that heating the LP regulator would be much more economical from
an energy standpoint, than heating the whole engine block. Perhaps
an insulated enclosure with silicone heaters appropriately
attached would work. They are available in many DC or AC and at
    various voltages.

Larry Crutcher
Starlight Solar Power Systems




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Re: [RE-wrenches] Gen preheat in cold climates

[Larry]

Chris,

After I hit the send button, I thought about how a small generator or 
gas grill will use tank pressure through a vapor regulator. If this 
generator is plumbed that way, there lies a problem that your solution 
of heating the tank will work with. Personally I would not plumb a 
generator with vapor lines from the tank, especially is it is a long 
distance away. Since Gary said this was a large system, I am assuming it 
is liquid delivery to the generator.


Gary, is the LP to the generator vapor or liquid from the tank?

Larry

On 4/3/15 10:56 AM, Chris Mason wrote:
Heating the regulator won't help if the propane is not vapourizing. 
You would need to heat the tank.
However, you do not need to heat it very much, just enough to let it 
vapourize. Think about putting it somewhere with a little heat, or 
burying it.


On Fri, Apr 3, 2015 at 1:51 PM, Larry <mailto:la...@starlightsolar.com>> wrote:


About the carb heat idea...LP is a liquid at -44°F. The liquid
does not combust, it must be vaporized. As the ambient temperature
drops closer to the LP liquid temperature, there would be a
reduction in how fast liquid is vaporizing and therefor a
reduction in volume. What you need in cold weather is enough
volume to maintain at least 11" wc while cranking or running the
engine. You can test the vapor pressure with a manometer while
cranking to verify if this is the problem.

If this is the reason the engine does not run, my thoughts are
that heating the LP regulator would be much more economical from
an energy standpoint, than heating the whole engine block. Perhaps
an insulated enclosure with silicone heaters appropriately
attached would work. They are available in many DC or AC and at
various voltages.

Larry Crutcher
Starlight Solar Power Systems




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Re: [RE-wrenches] Manufacturers warranty......

[Larry]

Hi Bill,

Because of the nature of my business, we have designed and installed 
thousands of small RE systems. As a result I install a much higher 
volume of components and consequently deal with a greater number of 
failed units. Over the last 14 years, Magnum Energy and Kyocera are the 
only companies that have offered hassle free compensation for labor. 
Magnum has established time for each repair whereas Kyocera pays for all 
of our R&R time.


Fronius? Took me a year and many arguments, pleading, emails and phone 
calls to get them to cough up payment for an inverter that _they 
insisted_ I return to them. (BTW, this was the 3rd inverter swap) Then, 
instead of mailing me a check, they issued a credit to Sunwize that only 
applied to future Fronius purchases, something which I will never do 
again. A boat load of crap later I got the credit applied to my account.


Larry Crutcher
Starlight Solar Power Systems

On 4/21/15 10:03 PM, frenergy wrote:
My recent experience with SMA was $150 for the warranty change out of 
one of their string inverters.  It was a significant hassle and took 
months to receive a check.  You have to know that they offer the $150, 
If you don't ask, they won't offer it.  Whereas Fronius almost insists 
they pay you $250 for a warranty change out, easy and prompt.  SMA 
used to ship from Rocklin, CA, now you have to wait for it to come 
from Colorado.

Anybody know Magnum's policy?
Bill
Feather River Solar Electric



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[RE-wrenches] Copper bar current capacity?

[Larry]

Hi Wrenches,

In building lithium battery systems, I have many components that need to 
be connected in series from the battery. Sometimes the space is very 
limited making it difficult to bend 2/0 cables. I would like to use 
copper flat bar and make parts to replace the cables. Does anyone know 
how much current I can run through copper bar based on its size? For 
example, 1" or 3/4"  wide by .0625" up to .125" thick. The pieces will 
only be a few inches long and bolted to solenoids, shunt and terminal posts.


--
Thank you,

Larry Crutcher
Starlight Solar Power Systems

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Copper bar current capacity?

[Larry]

I did see these AC 60Hz tables like your link. Is it the same for DC 
current? Seems like I read that there was a difference.


Thank you,

Larry Crutcher
Starlight Solar Power Systems

On 4/29/15 11:27 AM, August Goers wrote:

Larry,

There are many resources for this online. A quick search for "copper bar
current rating chart" yields results like this:

http://www.watteredge.com/pdf/Ampacity_Tables.pdf

Best,

August

-Original Message-
From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On
Behalf Of Larry
Sent: Wednesday, April 29, 2015 11:04 AM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: [RE-wrenches] Copper bar current capacity?

Hi Wrenches,

In building lithium battery systems, I have many components that need to
be connected in series from the battery. Sometimes the space is very
limited making it difficult to bend 2/0 cables. I would like to use copper
flat bar and make parts to replace the cables. Does anyone know how much
current I can run through copper bar based on its size? For example, 1" or
3/4"  wide by .0625" up to .125" thick. The pieces will only be a few
inches long and bolted to solenoids, shunt and terminal posts.

--
Thank you,

Larry Crutcher
Starlight Solar Power Systems

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[RE-wrenches] Wanted: Trace SWRC remotes

[larry]

I need 2 SWRC remotes in working condition. Please contact me off list if you can help.Larry CrutcherStarlight Solarla...@starlightsolar.com928-342-9103
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Battery Experience

[larry]

Jason,Forcing a lead acid battery to deeply discharge does not increase capacity or life of the battery. It only shortens battery life and may damage the battery. This is one of many battery myths. Larry CrutcherStarlight Solar Power Systems


 Original Message 
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Battery Experience
From: Jason Lerner <wapa...@rockisland.com>
Date: Fri, July 13, 2012 7:28 am
To: RE-wrenches <re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org>

Hello John,This time of year I service off grid summer cabins where people come up once a year for a few weeks.  The batteries in these systems generally do not die from over cycling,  but from over/under watering,  acid stratification, corrosion,  and generally being ignored.  The more savvy customers I will recommend they turn off the PV's when they are there to get a deep discharge in.Could you recommend any thing else they could do to lengthen their battery bank lifespan? These systems generally have a small PV charging capability,  and float charge 350 days a year. It seems ironic that these systems that really never get used,  and my battery bank at home that gets used (but not abused) and cycled daily, will last the same number of years.Thanks very much,Jason LernerWaldron Power and Light Co.



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Re: [RE-wrenches] Battery Experience

[larry]

Howie,The solution is to drive the battery voltage above the gassing point of about 2.37Vpc. If this is done regularly, stratification is not an issue. The best procedure for flooded batteries that remain in float mode for long time periods is periodic equalization charges of  2.58Vpc or more.Larry CrutcherStarlight Solar Power Systems


 Original Message 
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Battery Experience
From: "Howie Michaelson" 
Date: Fri, July 13, 2012 9:36 am
To: "RE-wrenches" 

Although I'm not clear on this, my impression is that when flooded
batteries float for long periods of time, the electrolyte stratifies and
creates various aging problems, which is why I assume one would want to
cycle the batteries at least somewhat on a somewhat regular basis...

Howie
-- 
Howie Michaelson
NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™

Catamount Solar, LLC
Renewable Energy Systems Sales and Service
VT Solar Electric & Hot Water Incentive Partner
http://www.CatamountSolar.com
802-272-0004




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Re: [RE-wrenches] Off-grid non-inverter battery charger recommendations?

[larry]

Hi Drake,Good find. We always adjust the Iota's for different types of batteries. Since this one is only used for back up purposes with a generator, you can leave the jumper in and always run at 15.7 volts. Once the voltage reaches that point, you will be +/-90% charged. This will not harm a flooded battery. If the converter is used long term with shore power, I would recommend that you install a resistor where you soldered the leads together to drop the voltage back to about 14.2vdc to preserve battery life. Also add a switch in parallel with the resistor and you will have the ability to select 14.2, 14.8 (jumper in) or 15.7 volts.Larry CrutcherStarlight Solar Power Systems


 Original Message 
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Off-grid non-inverter battery charger
recommendations?
From: Drake 
Date: Fri, October 26, 2012 6:23 am
To: RE-wrenches 

  Through a strange set of circumstances, I found a way to equalize batteries with an Iota charger.   My DLS 45 was borrowed on a couple of occasions.  I made the mistake of telling the borrowers how to adjust the voltage through the potentiometer.  Predictably, when I needed the unit, the pot had been ruined.  Calling Iota, they said there was no fix. The pot was soldered to the board.   The way the device works is that lowering the pot resistance increases the output voltage.  My solution was to cut the pot out of the circuit board and solder the leads together.  Now with the quick charge plug out, it holds at 15.2 to 15.4 volts.  The the quick charge plug in, it runs at around 15.7 volts.  I equalized a pair of T-105s yesterday without the quick charge plug.  It worked like a charm. This is much more useful for my needs than the factory configuration.  My uses are emergency charges from generators, often in cold weather, and equalization charges.  The operation of removing the pot was tricky for me, but someone more used to working with electronic circuit boards might not find it too difficult.   At 01:27 PM 10/15/2012, you wrote: Hi, Mechanix~ Bill Dorsett polled the group about recommended battery chargers for connection to a generator. Iota brand is the successor to Todd brand; I believe Iota bought the designs, tooling, etc. and these have appeal because of the relatively low cost per rated amp. They seem generator tolerant. The Todd design is a "constant voltage" type charger, however--basically an AC to DC converter with a fixed voltage output. In my experience, the "75 amp" Todd type charger will deliver 75 amps only for a relatively short time when first connected to a low battery. As the battery's voltage comes up that presents a sort of "back pressure" which slows the rate of charge. That's not so bad if one has utility power >always on< to drive the charger, but if an engine generator is running... The inverter/chargers (with which we are all familiar) begin with a "constant current" part of the charge cycle--aka bulk charge. The charger is determined to sock the battery with the amperage we have requested in the setup; I think a pulse width modulation is going on where the charger hums up its voltage in order to keep the amps high even as the back pressure builds. When it's time for the absorption phase of the charge, the logic shifts to a "constant voltage" where the amps are gradually dialed lower in order to keep the battery at the target voltage so it can "absorb". Ignoring the float phase which would come later, this overall charge regimen would be called CC/CV for "constant current/constant voltage". The CV part of that is not much different from what a Todd style charger does; it's just that the Todd design does not precede that phase with a CC "constant current" phase.  Some free-standing battery chargers have a CC/CV algorithm but those seem to cost as much or more than a comparably rated inverter/charger. Check the Magnum mod-square multi's, Bill, such as their RD series. As others on this List have noted, just the charge function is pretty good and since the inverter circuit is not pure sine, that keeps the cost lower. Built in time delay before it loads up the generator is an added benefit.  Jolliness, Mick Abraham, Proprietor www.abrahamsolar.com Voice: 970-731-4675 ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options & settings:  http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org  List-Archive:  http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org  List rules & etiquette:  www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios:  www.members.re-wrenches.org  ___
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Hydro Diversion Controls

[larry]

jay,The diversion control has nothing to do with battery current, it is to control voltage. Without it, over-voltage will occur anytime more charge current is available than the battery is accepting. A healthy small battery bank current can be as low as 0.6 amperes for flooded and AGM or GEL technology as low as 0.1 amperes.Larry CrutcherStarlight Solar Power Systems


 Original Message 
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Hydro Diversion Controls
From: jay peltz 
Date: Thu, November 22, 2012 12:22 pm
To: RE-wrenches 

Hi William

If the hydro is only 2 amps, I would argue that you don't diversion at all.

The float current expect for a really small battery bank is higher than that.

So unless you want/need it for some other reason, I would not install one.

jay

peltz power
On Nov 22, 2012, at 11:18 AM, William Miller wrote:

> David:
> 
> Interesting idea.  The added benefit is if the relay gets stuck, it won't destroy the battery bank.
> 
> The diversion load must equal or exceed the output of the hydro, correct?  The load we have will draw 38 amps at 24 vdc, the hydro will put out 2 amps.  Sounds like I have enough headroom
> 
> Thanks again to all of you.
> 
> William
> 
> At 08:32 PM 11/21/2012, David Katz wrote:
> 
>> William,
>> I always connect the hydro side of the diode to the diversion load with the contactor, so I don't pull the battery down while regulating.  The diversion load must draw enough current to pull the hydro voltage below the absorb voltage. Use ohms law to calculate the resistance.
>> David Katz
> 
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Re: [RE-wrenches] EPDM Roof Attachment/Flashing

[larry]

We use butyle rubber tape under the foot and then flood over the foot with Dicor 501 self leveling compound. Never had a leak with probably more than100,000 penetrations in the last 11 years. Contact me directly if you need to source these materials.Larry CrutcherStarlight Solar Power Systemsla...@starlightsolar.com


 Original Message 
Subject: [RE-wrenches] EPDM Roof Attachment/Flashing
From: wire...@gmail.com
Date: Mon, December 31, 2012 7:17 am
To: RE-wrenches <re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org>

Hello Wrenches,Installing rail mounted PV array on a 2 1/2 / 12 pitch EPDM residential roof. It's a flat section of roof in the middle of the house. Need to keep it low so would like to use 3" or 4" Unirac standoffs. The standard 1-6" peel and stick witches hat is fine for a 7" standoff but too tall for the 3-4" standoff. Unirac and Oatey have advised against using the Oatey aluminum flashing although the roofer who did the roof said it would be OK using seam tape between the Oatey and the EPDM. Another roofer I know has said absolutely not.  I did find a rubber Masterflash (6" x 6" base) that's a good fit but all their images show it used on metal roofs only and it's not a peel and stick. Can I use it with seam tape and/or caulking. Do I just need to go with the 7" standoff and the standard peel and stick witches hat and forget the low profile?Or is their some other system out there (roof attachment/flashing) that would keep it low. The ridge height is already at the 35 ft limit and the upper row of mod's would go above the ridge with the 7" standoff. I will work with a roofer but would like to figure this out before just turning it over to the rooferVery much appreciate any thoughts.Thank you and Happy New Year to you all. Larry LiesnerDesign and InstallationsElektron Solar, LLC49 Richmondville Ave Suite 107Westport, CT 06880203-557-3127 (office)203-644-2404 (cell)203-549-0977 (fax)wire...@gmail.com NABCEP Certified PV Installer (# 032611-184)  ___




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Re: [RE-wrenches] LiFePo4 Low Temp Charging Damage

[Larry]

My personal opinion is that you should not buy any lithium battery that does 
not provide adequate protection for all modes of operation. 

Freezing does not damage the battery; charging a frozen battery may damage it 
quickly. Trickle charging the battery is not the solution.

There are two solutions: provide a heat source to keep the batteries above 
freezing or incorporate a temperature controller to disable the charger if the 
battery is unsafe to charge.

Larry Crutcher


> On May 21, 2021, at 8:44 AM, Mark Frye  wrote:
> 
> Folks,
> 
> If I have a charger that does not have low battery charge cut-off, I can get 
> in trouble if I have a frozen pack and apply a charging voltage.
> 
> But, if I start with a pack that is above freezing and keep a trickle charge 
> on it, can I keep that pack safe from freezing and damage?
> 
> Or at some point, as ambient temperature drops, the pack will freeze and be 
> damaged anyway?
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Mark Frye
> 
> 
> ___

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[RE-wrenches] RFI from MPPT Charge Controllers

[Larry Crutcher]

Does anyone know of a large MPPT controller that does not produce RFI?  
Specifically, customers that are SWL, AM or amateur radio operators  
need RF quiet time during the day while operating or listening. All  
the controller I have installed make some noise. The Outback MX60 in  
my RV decimates every 40 kHz or so with broadband noise from 160  
meters and up.


Does anyone know how the Xantrex SW, Tristar MPPT or Apollo do with RFI?

Many thanks,

Larry Crutcher
Starlight Solar Power Systems
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Re: [RE-wrenches] RFI from MPPT Charge Controllers

[Larry Crutcher]

Hi Glenn,
Sure, except for morning net operations right when the controllers are  
starting up. Or, daytime on 20 meters for DX operations. Or for weak  
signal work or daytime AM radio listeners...and so on. Point is to  
find an alternative to the noise.


Dan,
Thanks for the suggestions. The RF noise can be picked up over 100  
feet away. #1 & #2 are standard procedure. I have not tried #3 but I  
have tried ferrite material on controller in and out wires, no change.  
Can you suggest a part number? #4, a Faraday cage might work if the  
controller is in the RV storage area and not inside on a wall.


Anyone know about the Xantrex XW, Tristar or other MPPT controllers?

Larry Crutcher, KB5HMU

On Aug 31, 2010, at 6:46 PM, Glenn Burt wrote:


Speaking as a ham radio operator, I find operating conditions are much
better after sundown.
Band conditions are much more conducive to distance operating and  
are much

quieter at that time.

Glenn Burt
KA2DTH

-Original Message-
From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Larry
Crutcher
Sent: Tuesday, August 31, 2010 8:01 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: [RE-wrenches] RFI from MPPT Charge Controllers

Does anyone know of a large MPPT controller that does not produce RFI?
Specifically, customers that are SWL, AM or amateur radio operators
need RF quiet time during the day while operating or listening. All
the controller I have installed make some noise. The Outback MX60 in
my RV decimates every 40 kHz or so with broadband noise from 160
meters and up.

Does anyone know how the Xantrex SW, Tristar MPPT or Apollo do with  
RFI?


Many thanks,

Larry Crutcher
Starlight Solar Power Systems


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Re: [RE-wrenches] RFI from MPPT Charge Controllers

[Larry Crutcher]

Hello Frank,

Looks like your low pass design cutoff frequency is below 500 kHz. I  
had not thought of this but I'll try it. Do you know where to find the  
coil that large?


I would think that just by the nature of their design that an MPPT  
controller would have this filtering.


Thanks,

Larry Crutcher
Starlight Solar Power Systems

On Sep 1, 2010, at 7:19 AM, Frank Lewon wrote:

We recommend making a Pi filter consisting of a 50 uH 30 amp medium  
Q coil and .1uF 100+ volt disc capacitors. Insert the Pi filter in  
the PV+ line. Wire with short direct leads to the control. Helps a  
lot. Not perfect.


Frank Lewon
BZ Products Inc.
7914 Gravois Road
St. Louis MO 63123 USA
314-644-2490 www.bzproducts.net


On 8/31/2010 7:00 PM, Larry Crutcher wrote:
Does anyone know of a large MPPT controller that does not produce  
RFI? Specifically, customers that are SWL, AM or amateur radio  
operators need RF quiet time during the day while operating or  
listening. All the controller I have installed make some noise. The  
Outback MX60 in my RV decimates every 40 kHz or so with broadband  
noise from 160 meters and up.


Does anyone know how the Xantrex SW, Tristar MPPT or Apollo do with  
RFI?


Many thanks,

Larry Crutcher
Starlight Solar Power Systems


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[RE-wrenches] Energy Tax Credits

[Larry Crutcher]

Is there a tax credit like the personal credit for your home? Form  
5695 part 1 says the 30% tax credit is for the main home. A customer  
has a second home that is leased out. He had a PV solar system  
installed at that home in 2010. Is there a 30% tax credit for the  
system installed at the leased home?


Thanks,
Larry


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Re: [RE-wrenches] Energy Tax Credits

[Larry Crutcher]

What I meant to say, is there a business tax credit like the personal  
credit. Sorry.


Larry

On Sep 17, 2010, at 9:39 AM, Larry Crutcher wrote:

Is there a tax credit like the personal credit for your home? Form  
5695 part 1 says the 30% tax credit is for the main home. A customer  
has a second home that is leased out. He had a PV solar system  
installed at that home in 2010. Is there a 30% tax credit for the  
system installed at the leased home?


Thanks,
Larry


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Re: [RE-wrenches] paralleling amp hour meters on one shunt?

[Larry Crutcher]

Todd,

The shunt is only providing a mV DC signal. In our showroom we have a  
working display wall of charge controllers and battery monitors (Blue  
Sky, Trimetric, Morningstar, analog meters) with a single shunt to a  
single battery. Works well for us. More than likely there is isolation  
before the AD converter so I would not expect any problems with any  
monitor.


Prescaler may be a different story although I suspect it will work. It  
is just converting a high voltage reference to a low one that the  
battery monitor can accept. If there was an issue I would try a small  
DC-DC device at the prescaler outputs going to each monitor.


Larry Crutcher
Starlight Solar Power Systems

On Oct 1, 2010, at 2:22 AM, Todd Cory wrote:

Has anyone ever paralleled two amp hour meters on one shunt? How  
about paralleling two e-meters on a single shunt and a single  
prescaler?


Todd


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[RE-wrenches] community solar

[Larry Brown]

wrenches.

I have had several inquires into this possible scenario.  anybody have  
any experience doing this with their local utility?


several families in a neighborhood or community invest together to put  
up a solar array either on an existing building that has excellent  
solar access or a ground mount that also has a wide solar window.  the  
system is set up so that it is configured into sub arrays with each  
sub array having an inverter and a kwh meter that records the output  
of that sub array. each of the sub arrays is designated (by agreement  
and the proper paper work)  to a particular family based on how much  
they invested into the system.  the output of the whole system is then  
grid tied and all of the kwh go directly to the utility.  it is then  
just a matter of accounting in that each of the sub arrays kwh's  
produced is deducted from the kwh's used by that particular customer  
on their home or business utility bill.  So the customer either has a  
credit that is carried over or has a balance owed that appears on the  
next utility bill.


The design and installation is straight forward and in one centralized  
local location.

It is only a matter of paper work and accounting.
And it builds community and neighbors get to know each other
Much like Community Supported Agriculture

Larry Brown
Sun Mountain



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[RE-wrenches] AC Coupling

[Larry Brown]

Wrenches,

After Hurricane Irene left a lot of people without power here in the  
Northeast, customers who have grid-tied systems are asking about some  
battery backup to power some essential loads.


We have used Sunny Islands but they require either 2 Sunny Islands or  
a step up transformer to get 240 volts for the well pump.  Schneider  
Electric  (Xantrex XW) inverters look like they would work  for this  
application and do 120/240 volt output as well and we have used these  
in off grid applications but not as AC coupled.  I have considered  
Magnum because they also do 120/240 volts but they need battery  
diversion to ensure the batteries are not over charged.


None of these systems are going to be rewired as a DC system so I am  
looking for any feed back on what others are using to AC couple to  
existing grid-tied systems to provide some battery backup.


Thanks
Larry

Larry Brown
Sun Mountain 
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Invert first?

[Larry Brown]

Eric,

We have had excellent results doing these with Sunny Boys and Sunny  
Islands.  It is more pricey but if you have a high end customer and  
want a a reliable, trouble free (?) system, we have had no wrinkles or  
call backs with this approach. We have inverted at the array in the  
past and sent AC to the critical loads sub panel at the house and from  
there to the Sunny Islands and then either the main service panel or  
done a tap between the main service panel and the utility meter. If  
you do a tap then you need an AC fused disconnect before the tap.  But  
you could also run DC from the array to the house, if it is a new  
system, and then invert to AC.
This is also a good approach if a customer wants to add battery back  
up to an existing grid tie system. There is some rewiring but it is  
not at the array.  The output of the grid tie inverter in an AC  
coupled system needs to land in the critical loads sub panel rather  
than the main service panel where it probably now lands.


Magnum has a good schematic on their website showing how this is done  
using a MS-PAE battery based inverter and a grid tie inverter


Larry Brown
Sun Mountain
Nabcep Certified PV Installer


On Oct 2, 2011, at 12:15 PM, Eric Thomas wrote:


Wrenches,

We are designing a super high end grid-tied w/ battery backup system  
for a customer. Array will be ~15kW; pole or stand alone structure  
mounted; 250' from home/batteries. My question is: does it make any  
sense to invert the power at the array and use this ac to make the  
long run to the batteries THEN connect to a typical battery charger  
rather than a dc charge controller? Im mostly concerned with huge dc  
conductors making this run across the property. Havent delved into  
the specific design enough to size said conductors yet, or specify  
any equipment, but wanted to know if im barking up the wrong tree ir  
not.

Thanks for the insight.

Eric Thomas
Founder
Solar Epiphany LLC
NABCEP Certified PV Installer
WA Electrical Contractor # SOLAREL911NR

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Auger for ground mount

[Larry Brown]

We have been using Techno Metal Posts Helical Piers with much success for many 
years
Larry

Larry Brown
Sun Mountain
845-657-8096
sunmount...@netstep.net


Sent from my iPhone

> On Feb 9, 2018, at 11:48 AM, Chris Schaefer  wrote:
> 
> While I've been using the Zilla platform with an auger attachment for a mini 
> excavator with good luck. With that said I'm looking at Nuance Energy and 
> their Osprey mount which requires a hammer drill. Anyone tried this yet?
> 
> Christopher
> 
>> On Fri, Feb 9, 2018 at 11:35 AM, Jerry Shafer  
>> wrote:
>> Chris
>> Azk around for a fence contractor, they generally have what you need
>> Jerry
>> 
>>> On Feb 9, 2018 5:05 AM, "Chris Mason"  wrote:
>>> I'm taking on construction of a ground mount system of about 30KW. My 
>>> previous experience has entailed using a utility truck mounted auger for 
>>> the holes but that's expensive. The soil type here is fairly soft, not 
>>> rock.  There's no contractor available with a skid steer mounted auger. I 
>>> need at least four inch holes, three foot deep. Siz inch would be better.
>>> What are the options? Any novel ideas?
>>> We have a service truck with a 2 ton hydraulic crane, anything I can mount 
>>> to that? I don't mind fabricating brackets and mounts, welding parts to it.
>>> 
>>> -- 
>>> Chris Mason
>>> NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™
>>> Solar Design Engineer
>>> Generac Generators Industrial technician
>>> 
>>> www.cometsolar.com
>>> 264.235.5670
>>> 869.662.5670
>>> Skype: netconcepts
>>> 
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> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Chris Schaefer’s
> 
> Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 
> 5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424
> www.solarandwindfx.com ~ E-mail: ch...@solarandwindfx.com
> 
> 
> 
> Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, 
> "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing 
> to work and give to those who would not."
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[RE-wrenches] Ac Coupling

[Larry Brown]

Does anyone have a recommendation on a battery based inverter to AC Couple with 
a Solar Edge 11400A-US Inverter that is already installed?
I have been working a lot with the Schneider Conergy XW+ Inverters for off grid 
but have no experience AC Coupling them with a Solar Edge Inverter
Any recommendations?

Thanks
Larry

Larry Brown
Sun Mountain
845-657-8096
sunmount...@netstep.net


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Re: [RE-wrenches] Ac Coupling

[Larry Brown]

Kirpal

Thanks for the recommendations
If you have a diagram that would be most helpful and generous
What Lithium Battery are you using with this configuration?

Much Appreciated
Larry

Larry Brown
Sun Mountain
845-657-8096
sunmount...@netstep.net


On Jul 19, 2018, at 11:15 AM, Kirpal  wrote:

Larry.Outback Radian would work fine but you would need 2 of the 8kW 
inverters for your ~11kW GT inverter.  Outback  recommends a maximum 75% 
loading ratio when AC coupling.  We have used a simple solid state relay 
controlled by the Aux Out of the Radian to turn off one leg of the SolarEdge or 
any other GT inverter essentially shutting off the GT inverter when a desired 
battery voltage is reached.  
As an aside, in earlier days when lead acid batteries where the main battery 
technology I didn't like this set up because it didn't allow multistage 
charging of the batteries leading to batteries only reaching approximately 80% 
SOC (bad for batteries) because there was no ability to taper charge (aside 
from frequency shift compatible inverters). But nowadays with Lithium 
batteries, which don't require multistage charging becoming more common this 
method of AC coupling is pretty attractive because the batteries don't care if 
they only reach a partial state of chargeEven though you can charge them 
more than 80% before kicking off the GT inverter.  We have used this method 
successfully in addition to having DC coupling present in the same system as 
well.
Let me know if you need a diagram.


Sunny Regards,
Kirpal Khalsa
Oregon LRT#25
NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional
Oregon Solarworks LLC
www.oregonsolarworks.com <http://www.oregonsolarworks.com/>
541-299-0402

On Thu, Jul 19, 2018 at 7:07 AM, Larry Brown mailto:sunmount...@netstep.net>> wrote:
Does anyone have a recommendation on a battery based inverter to AC Couple with 
a Solar Edge 11400A-US Inverter that is already installed?
I have been working a lot with the Schneider Conergy XW+ Inverters for off grid 
but have no experience AC Coupling them with a Solar Edge Inverter
Any recommendations?

Thanks
Larry

Larry Brown
Sun Mountain
845-657-8096
sunmount...@netstep.net <mailto:sunmount...@netstep.net>


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[RE-wrenches] Burkina Faso Off Grid

[Larry Brown]

Wrenches

I had a call from someone looking for an installer to do some off grid 
installations in Burkina Faso, Africa
They have a school project they are working on

If anyone does work in that part of the world would you get in touch and I will 
hook you up with Pascal

Thanks
Larry

Larry Brown
Sun Mountain
845-657-8096
sunmount...@netstep.net


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[RE-wrenches] Staber washing machines

[Larry Brown]

Wrenches,

Has anyone had a problem with the control boards on Staber washing  
machines?
We have had 3 control boards fail in a relatively short time frame on  
the same machine

Staber has replaced the boards each time
The last one was after completing a load of laundry and then starting  
a second load twenty minutes later and having the brand new, just  
installed replacement control board fail again
This is a dedicated washing machine outlet with additional surge  
protection

No other motors or electronics have experienced any problems
This house has a grid-tied system with a Xantrex 2.8 kw inverter
All failures have been in the morning around  9-10 am

Any ideas or recommendations?

Thanks
Larry Brown
Sun Mountain

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Ground Mount

[Larry Brown]

Keith,

We have had good success with TechnoMetalPosts for ground mounts
No excavation, no concrete work and almost no disturbance to the site
They have been running about $225-250 per post installed and a  
stamped engineering report for the local Building Department


Larry Brown
Sun Mountain

On Jun 30, 2009, at 8:14 PM, Keith Cronin wrote:


Hi
I have a solar friend who is looking for some feedback on cost per  
footing for a small residential ground mount system in Northern CA.  
Do any of you have a cost estimate/assumption for each sonotube and  
concrete mix? What have been the general requirements for diameter  
and depth of the footings?
Does anyone have a concrete person they know up in the Santa Rosa  
area?

Thanks

Keith
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Ground Mount

[Larry Brown]

Dave,

We have not done top of pole mounts using Techno Metal posts but they  
say they are available


Larry

On Jun 30, 2009, at 9:37 PM, David Palumbo wrote:


Hey Larry,



Have you worked with the Techno Metal Posts (TPM) for 6” SCH40  
(orSCH80) top of pole mounts?  I have heard of the TMP’s being used  
for multi pole ground mounts and my Vermont TMP franchisee wants to  
do some single pipe mast DPW top of pole mounts with his TM Post.




Dave Palumbo



From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches- 
boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Larry Brown

Sent: Tuesday, June 30, 2009 8:23 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Ground Mount



Keith,



We have had good success with TechnoMetalPosts for ground mounts

No excavation, no concrete work and almost no disturbance to the site

They have been running about $225-250 per post installed and a  
stamped engineering report for the local Building Department




Larry Brown

Sun Mountain



On Jun 30, 2009, at 8:14 PM, Keith Cronin wrote:




Hi
I have a solar friend who is looking for some feedback on cost per  
footing for a small residential ground mount system in Northern CA.  
Do any of you have a cost estimate/assumption for each sonotube and  
concrete mix? What have been the general requirements for diameter  
and depth of the footings?
Does anyone have a concrete person they know up in the Santa Rosa  
area?

Thanks

Keith

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[RE-wrenches] hydro

[Larry Brown]

Wrenches,

Any recommendations for a small scale hydro manufacturer for a grid- 
tied system with about 80 feet of head and 1200 gallon per minute  
flow and the dam already in place.   The load at this Center is to  
high for an affordable battery bank and the grid is close at hand,  
they already have a backup generator and transfer switch


Thanks for any advice

Larry Brown
Sun Mountain
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Great service at the wholesale level?

[Larry Crutcher]

I would but isn't that what the "bitching" list is for?

Larry Crutcher
www.starlightsolar.com
la...@starlightsolar.com
(928) 941-1660

Retail Store & Shipping
2998 Shari Ave.
Yuma, AZ 85365

Mailing address
11881 South Fortuna Road
Yuma, AZ 85367

Renewable Energy Systems Sales, Service, Installations

On Oct 25, 2009, at 8:35 AM, Dana wrote:

Anyone care to rave about your wholesale supplier for great service  
and response time?




Dana Orzel

Great Solar Works, Inc
www.solarwork.com
E - d...@solarwork.com
V - 970.626.5253
F - 970.626.4140
C - 970.209.4076

I will be the shift in how the world uses power! - Dana Orzel

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Re: [RE-wrenches] micro-hydro distribution problem

[Larry Crutcher]

Nick,

No matter what you come up with, every battery system will have  
different demand's, the hungriest getting the bulk of the power. Can  
you get this group to take this one step further and just build a  
single battery/inverter system (hopefully at higher DC voltage) and  
then distribute the AC? Each home can be metered so the usage is paid  
for fairly. I would not try it any other way.


Sincerely,

Larry Crutcher
www.starlightsolar.com
la...@starlightsolar.com
(928) 941-1660

Retail Store & Shipping
2998 Shari Ave.
Yuma, AZ 85365

Mailing address
11881 South Fortuna Road
Yuma, AZ 85367

Renewable Energy Systems Sales, Service, Installations

On Oct 25, 2009, at 2:29 PM, Nick Houser wrote:



Esteemed fellow wrenches: May we put our heads together on today's  
problem
in my terrain: How best to distribute and regulate the output of a  
single

turbine from a convenient distribution point to
four residences on the off grid property, each with it's own 12 volt
battery/inverter system. If I may spare you the details of the
lake/stream/intake/penstock and apparatus, let's say we have
sufficient head and flow to divide 700 watts four ways, average  
distance
maybe 300 feet. The problem becomes:  diversion controllers and dump  
loads

at each battery or some central scheme?
Anybody done this kind of thing? Cautionary tales welcomed. (Any
experienced comments welcomed.
Thanks muchly in advance.  Nick Houser  Off Grid Services,  Lund,  
British

Columbia.

--
Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/
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[RE-wrenches] generator

[Larry Brown]

Fellow Wrenches,

On an off the grid system we did for a client a year or two back, we  
installed an Outback VFX3524 mounted on a Midnight Solar E Panel.   
They had a manual pull Homelight generator as back up.  All worked well.
Recently the client upgraded to an electric start 8000 watt Generac  
generator.
Now every time they start the new generator, the GFI 20 amp  
receptacle on the generator pops.
There is probably a redundant neutral to ground bond that is causing  
this but I am uncertain on the best approach to remedy this condition
Any recommendations or experience on how to get the generator to  
interface with the system?


Thanks
Larry

Larry Brown
Sun Mountain 
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Re: [RE-wrenches] generator

[Larry Brown]

Dave,

The original setup was an 1800 watt Homelite generator with two non  
GFI receptacles, no twist lock receptacle

The client had the generator from building their house
It was wired through a fused disconnect to the VFX3524
All worked fine
They tried the same set up with the new Generac 8000 watt inverter
They plugged into a 20 amp GFI receptacle on the generator and it  
kept popping the GFI breaker
I did lower the Battery charger AC amps and the AC amps in but it  
seemed to make no difference


Larry


On Nov 10, 2009, at 8:22 PM, David Palumbo wrote:


Larry,

Are you sure it is not a simple overload situation? Have you tried
reprogramming the VFX with a Mate to lower critical values (AC Amps  
In, and

Battery charger AC amps)?

Seems strange a 8kW generator to have a 20A breaker protect a load  
like a
generator (unless you were plugged into that outlet). How do you  
have the

output wired?

Dave

-Original Message-
From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of  
Larry Brown

Sent: Tuesday, November 10, 2009 7:11 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: [RE-wrenches] generator

Fellow Wrenches,

On an off the grid system we did for a client a year or two back, we
installed an Outback VFX3524 mounted on a Midnight Solar E Panel.
They had a manual pull Homelight generator as back up.  All worked  
well.

Recently the client upgraded to an electric start 8000 watt Generac
generator.
Now every time they start the new generator, the GFI 20 amp
receptacle on the generator pops.
There is probably a redundant neutral to ground bond that is causing
this but I am uncertain on the best approach to remedy this condition
Any recommendations or experience on how to get the generator to
interface with the system?

Thanks
Larry

Larry Brown
Sun Mountain
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Re: [RE-wrenches] generator

[Larry Brown]

Allan,

Using a T-240 fed from the 30 amp twist lock, non GFI, outlet with  
240 volts and then taking the stepped down 120 volts into the Outback  
looks like it would solve the problem of having two neutral to ground  
bounds.
It is a little pricey for the extra T-240 needed but it means not  
altering the new generator and possibly voiding the warrantee.  It  
also leaves the 2-20 amp GFI receptacles on the generator in their  
proper working order for future use.


Thanks for the helpful fix

Larry

On Nov 10, 2009, at 8:10 PM, Allan Sindelar wrote:


Larry,
The single VFX3524 takes 19A plus loads from one leg, way  
overloading that
120V leg. Your best bet would be to add a T240 or PSX240 to balance  
both

legs. Then use the 30A 240V receptacle on the Genereck. The twist-loc
receptacle doesn't run through a GFI, so the tripping will go away.  
Plus
your VFX can overload and trip the 20A breaker when charging at the  
full 19A

and a surge load comes on. This would likely solve that.

Contact me off-list if you'd like a pdf copy of the off-grid  
gennies article

in Home Power; it will help explain a bit about wiring with the !)$%&@
bonded-chassis neutral and a few other issues.


Allan Sindelar
al...@positiveenergysolar.com
NABCEP Certified Photovoltaic Installer
EE98J Journeyman Electrician
Positive Energy, Inc.
3201 Calle Marie
Santa Fe, New Mexico 87507
505 424-1112
www.PositiveEnergySolar.com


-Original Message-
From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of  
Larry Brown

Sent: Tuesday, November 10, 2009 5:11 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: [RE-wrenches] generator

Fellow Wrenches,

On an off the grid system we did for a client a year or two back, we
installed an Outback VFX3524 mounted on a Midnight Solar E Panel.
They had a manual pull Homelight generator as back up.  All worked  
well.

Recently the client upgraded to an electric start 8000 watt Generac
generator.
Now every time they start the new generator, the GFI 20 amp
receptacle on the generator pops.
There is probably a redundant neutral to ground bond that is causing
this but I am uncertain on the best approach to remedy this condition
Any recommendations or experience on how to get the generator to
interface with the system?

Thanks
Larry

Larry Brown
Sun Mountain
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Inverter causing migraine?

[Larry Brown]

Ron,

Many people are becoming sensitive to all of the environmental  
assaults that we are subjected to on a daily basis.
This staff member may be sensitized even though no one else appears  
outwardly affected.
If you know anyone who does kinesiology, you can have them test this  
person for this.


Larry Brown
Sun Mountain


On Feb 3, 2010, at 8:38 PM, Ron Young wrote:

I have a staff member that has begun complaining recently of  
feeling like a "rubber band was tightening around my head" and of  
migraines when we turn on an inverter. We have set up an Outback  
3524 inverter in our store and it is charging a set of batteries.  
Whenever she complained we shut it off. It is creating a  
complicated situation and I'm wondering if anyone has any  
experience with this? We have customers that live in one room  
cabins with these inverters and have never had a complaint of this  
nature. No one else on staff has any problem with this. Her work  
area is situated 25' away from the inverter.


Ron Young
earthRight Solar
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Warranty replacement for Kyocera KC-120's

[Larry Crutcher]

We see defective KC-120's almost weekly on RV systems and Kyocera has  
been great in handling the claims. FYI, you do not need to wait for  
the modules to fail to warranty them. The labor reimbursement needs to  
be applied for and approved prior to replacing the modules. For  
information, contact Amie.Ebert AT kyocera DOT com.


Larry Crutcher
Starlight Solar Power Systems
www.starlightsolar.com

la...@starlightsolar.com
Office - 928-342-9103
Cell - 928-941-1660

On Jun 12, 2010, at 2:14 AM, Nick Soleil wrote:

Kyocera replaced 296 KC-120s for our customer and paid us more than  
1$ per watt for the labor to swap em'


Nick Soleil


From: Joel Davidson 
To: RE-wrenches 
Sent: Thu, June 10, 2010 7:12:32 PM
Subject: [RE-wrenches] Warranty replacement (was Astopower 120  
failure)


Our customer, an engineer in San Diego, self-installed 28 KC120  
modules in 2002. May 25, 2010, he reported that the array output  
stopped. The same day I emailed him that his test results indicated  
that the problem was bad cell interconnects, that Kyocera knew of  
the problem, did not recall the modules, but instead was replacing  
reported bad modules, and gave him some Kyocera email addresses. The  
next day someone from Kyocera emailed our customer. June 9 the  
replacement modules arrived. I don't know if he received  
remanufactured modules.

Joel Davidson

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[RE-wrenches] PV solar powered pond aeration compressor

[Larry Crutcher]

Greetings Wrenches,

I am looking for a DC motor, oil-less, continuos duty air compressor  
to use for a pond aeration system. Higher voltage DC preferred for  
direct PV module power. I'm not sure how to calculate the pressure and  
volume needed but a similar 120vac pump draws about 1200 watts and  
delivers about 9 CFM. I assume that the same wattage DC motor would  
mean comparable air supply. Any experiences out there?


Thanks,

Larry Crutcher
Starlight Solar Power Systems

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Re: [RE-wrenches] PV solar powered pond aeration compressor

[Larry Crutcher]

The Lorentz pump may be the ticket. Due to stratification, surface  
pumps will not correct the situation in this 10 acre lake.


Thank you Mark and all other responders.

Larry Crutcher

On Jun 17, 2010, at 9:02 AM, Mark Dickson wrote:


Hi Larry,
Lorentz offers an aeration pump based on their Boost pump system.  I  
will send you specs off-list.  We usually, however trend towards the  
Lorentz floating fountain pump for aeration—quite effective and  
efficient!


Best regards,

Mark Dickson,
NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer ™
Oasis Montana Inc


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Re: [RE-wrenches] On demand WH

[Larry Brown]

I have had a Bosch/Aqua Star 125 HX LP On Demand Water Heater installed and 
working flawlessly in my home since February of 2007 with a hydro generator 
that ignites the pilot and main burner when there is a demand for hot water.  
With no demand for hot water, there is no standing pilot light and no propane 
usage.

The only adjustment I needed to make is with a 20/40 psi pressure switch or a 
30/50 psi pressure switch on the pressure tank, the hot water heater started to 
taper down the hot water output on the low end of the cycle before the points 
closed and the pump came on.  I installed a 40/60 psi pressure switch and have 
had constant hot water when ever required.

Larry Brown
Sun Mountain
Olivebridge, New York
Nabcep Certified PV Installer


On Oct 1, 2013, at 12:19 PM, toddc...@finestplanet.com wrote:

> i remember hearing there was one brand which had a tiny hydro generator, 
> operated by the flowing water, which was used to light the burner... yet, no 
> one mentioned them?
>  
> todd
>  
>  
>  
>  
>  
> On Tuesday, October 1, 2013 5:48am, "Bill Loesch"  
> said:
> 
> > 
> > Hi Dick,
> > 
> > Following the Carter era oil embargo energy awareness, pilot lights were
> > reduced from ~700 BTU/h to ~ half. In a tank, that heat is put to
> > amazingly efficient use; not so with a tankless.
> > 
> > In places where they take energy usage seriously, the pilot light is lit
> > only when the tankless is going to be used. A piezo igniter is standard
> > on the standing pilot natural draft heater identified earlier.
> > 
> > For all those folks with a tank, using it as a batch heater with the
> > circuit breaker or pilot gas selector also eliminates the majority of
> > standby loss. My pet peeve is folks who unwittingly heat the water well
> > past the using temp and temper it with cold at the faucet.
> > 
> > Glad you are pleased with your tankless operation,
> > 
> > Bill Loesch
> > Solar 1 - Saint Louis Solar
> > 314 631 1094
> > 
> > On 30-Sep-13 7:29 AM, Richard L Ratico wrote:
> > > As concerns standby loss, I can't speak to the others, but the Rinnai has 
> > > a
> > > simple on/off button on the front of the unit. A remote controller is
> > available
> > > which also provides the switch. It does take afew seconds for the unit to
> > boot
> > > up. Up to three remotes may be installed, making the on /off operation and
> > > temperature adjustment fairly convenient.
> > >
> > > Been using a Rinnai here, on grid for 10 years or so. It works. We like 
> > > it.
> > >
> > > I understand a pilot uses a significant amount of gas over the course of a
> > year.
> > > Just sayin'.
> > >
> > > Dick Ratico
> > > Solarwind Electric
> > >
> > > --- You wrote:
> > > If its a Rinai, I measured one once that was 30 watts AC standby, and
> > > jumped a bit higher when firing. It also needed pure sine.
> > > The customer swapped it for a regular hot water tank.
> > > Some Bosches and old Palomas, etc. had either a piezo ignition or pilot,
> > > but took no power.
> > > I'm working on a system with one now that needs 12vdc at about 5 watts.
> > >
> > > R.Ray Walters
> > > CTO, Solarray, Inc
> > > Nabcep Certified PV Installer,
> > > Licensed Master Electrician
> > > Solar Design Engineer
> > > 303 505-8760
> > > --- end of quote ---
> > > ___
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> > >
> > > -
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> > 
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> > Version: 2014.0.4142 / Virus Database: 3604/6707 - Release Date: 09/28/13
> > 
> > 

Re: [RE-wrenches] Aqueous Hybrid Ion batteries

[Larry Crutcher]

David,

Something does not add up to me. The cell has a voltage discharge curve 
way outside of RE equipment, 1.75 Vpc down to 0.5Vpc. I can't see how 
this technology could be scaled to RE applications without wasting much 
of the capacity. From what I see, only about 40% could be used before LVD.



On 11/10/14 10:10 AM, Dave wrote:


Wrenches,

I have a customer with a grid-tied w battery back-up (formerly 
off-grid) with failing LA batteries. He found these batteries on the 
web and asked me to check them out.


Anyone out there know anything about this AHI technology and or this 
company, Aquion Energy? 
*http://www.aquionenergy.com/microgrid-energy-storage*


**

Thanks,

David Palumbo

Independent Power LLC

462 Solar Way Drive

Hyde Park, VT 05655

802-888-7194



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Re: [RE-wrenches] Tesla Powerwall battery paired with solar

[Larry Brown]

Michael,

How do i access the marketing list?

Thanks
Larry

Larry Brown
Sun Mountain

On May 2, 2015, at 8:07 PM, Michael Welch wrote:

> Hey gang. This has been interesting, but let's get the list back to 
> wrenching. 
> 
> Let's move any further discussion to the RE-Marketing list, or the 
> RE-Bitching list.
> 
> Thanks.
> 
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[RE-wrenches] These Wind Turbines Generate Energy Without any Blades | Digital Trends

[Larry Brown]

Wrenches,

Does anyone have any comments or knowledge on this new product about to enter 
the Renewable Energy world?

Larry

Larry Brown
Sun Mountain


http://www.digitaltrends.com/cool-tech/vortex-bladeless-wind-turbine-indiegogo/
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[RE-wrenches] Transverter Total Smart Grid Solution

[Larry Brown]

Have any wrenches had any experience with Heart Transverters

http://www.transverter.com/

I have a client who wants to use one to transition from a grid tied system to 
an off the the grid system

Thanks

Larry Brown
Sun Mountain
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[RE-wrenches] Sunny Island 5048

[Larry Brown]

Wrenches

Does anyone have an empty original cardboard box for a Sunny Island 5048 
Inverter?

Please contact me off list

Thanks
Larry

Larry Brown
Sun Mountain
sunmount...@netstep.net
845-657-8096
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[RE-wrenches] Fwd: AC Coupled

[Larry Brown]

> 
> Wrenches,
> 
> I have a client with a 4.6 kw grid tied system using a Sunny Boy 6000 
> inverter.  We have AC Coupled to that system with 2 Sunny Island 5048's and 
> 8-Concorde SunXtender 3050T 6 volt batteries in series feeding an essential 
> load/critical load sub panel.  The wiring to the sub panel from the Sunny 
> Islands is #6, the max wire size that can be used in the AC 1 and AC 2, in 
> and out, of the Sunny Islands.  The 2 pole breaker at the sub panel is 70 
> amps ( 56 amps feed through current x 1.25 = 70 amps ).
> This allow the 4.6 kw solar system and the Sunny Boy 6000 to act as a micro 
> grid and charge the batteries and support the loads in the SubPanel when the 
> grid is down and still be isolated from the main service panel and the grid. 
> 
> We have moved several loads from the main 200 amp service panel into the 
> essential load/critical load panel, the well pump, the refrigerator, the 
> circulator/boiler controls for the propane fired radiant heating system and 
> some lights and communication circuits.  
> 
> The main 200 amp main service panel has an integrated manual transfer switch 
> that has allowed them to fire up the gas powered Honda generator and run all 
> of the loads when the grid was down before we installed any systems to their 
> home.  They would like to be able to continue to do this in an extended power 
> outage.
> 
> So here is the question?  In a power outage, if they fire up the generator 
> and move the manual transfer switch in the Main Service Panel to generator, 
> the Sunny Islands will see this generator power coming from the Main Service 
> Panel and switch from Back Up Mode to Pass Through Mode.  The Sunny Boy 6000 
> will send any excess power not used by the loads to the the generator (as if 
> it was a net metering arrangement ) believing it is the grid. This would 
> probably destroy the generator or some other disasterous scenario.  
> 
> So how can the generator feeding the Main Service panel be isolated from the 
> Sunny Islands and Sunny Boy feeding the SubPanel as a micro grid in a power 
> outage and still provide power to the loads that are in the Main Service 
> Panel?
> 
> Thank you for the collective wisdom and knowledge that this group has 
> acquired from years in the trenches making it all happen.
> 
> Larry
> 
> Larry Brown
> Sun Mountain
> NABCEP Certified PV Installer
> 
> 

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Community says farewell to solar pioneer Gottlieb - Brattleboro Reformer

[Larry Brown]

Richard was one of the early pioneers who brought Renewable Energy awareness 
and installations into the public mind

I would call him my friend, one of my early mentors and a constant source of 
inspiration and guidance whenever I had some design questions that I needed 
feedback with.
He knew how to play and be resourceful and innovative.  He was a natural 
teacher and we co-taught together many Solar Design and Installation courses 
for Solar Energy International. 

Richard has left behind a rich legacy of installs and many talented installers 
and designers who gained their beginnings in this field under Richards 
mentoring.
He will be much missed by those who knew him, worked with him and got their 
start under his guidance.

Larry

Larry Brown
Sun Mountain
sunmount...@netstep.net
NAPCEP Certified PV Installer

On Feb 24, 2012, at 10:05 AM, d...@foxfire-energy.com wrote:

> For those of you who knew Richard
> 
> http://www.reformer.com/localnews/ci_20024575#.T0enKNp5zOw.email
> 
> ---
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Grid-Tied, PV by AC or DC

[Larry Brown]

Jay,

We have installed a number of AC Coupled systems using Sunny Boys and Sunny 
Islands.  One important consideration in this approach is to connect the 
inverters (Sunny Boys and Sunny Islands) together with a communication cable 
and Communication Cards and to upload new software into the Sunny Boys that let 
them know when the grid is down to operate in off grid mode. In this way when 
the grid is down the Sunny islands can limit the output of the Sunny Boys to 
meet the demand of the loads in the protected loads sub panel. Without the 
communication between the inverters, if the grid is down and the output of the 
Sunny Boys exceeds the demand of the loads in the protected load sub panel, 
then the Sunny Island will phase shift and the Sunny Boys will completely 
disconnect and then wait five minutes to try and connect again and will 
continue to do this until the output of the Sunny Boys does not exceed the 
demand of the loads.   So it is all or nothing without  communication between 
the inverters.  This would seem to hold true as well for Sunny Islands mixed 
with any other Grid Tied inverters that are not of the SMA family and can not 
effectively talk to each other.

Larry

Larry Brown
Sun Mountain
NABCEP Certified PV Installer


On Mar 4, 2012, at 10:25 AM, jay peltz wrote:

> HI Darryl,
> 
> Is this a UL listed application for the Radian/Outback?
> 
> And in following this thread about AC coupled:
> Given the higher efficiency of the batteryless inverter and fantastic MPP, vs 
> the relatively high losses with the 600v xantrex or standard CC/inverter 
> losses, I would use the AC couple technique.
> 
> Jay
> 
> peltz power
> 
> 
> On Mar 3, 2012, at 8:06 AM, Darryl Thayer wrote:
> 
>> A few years back I made some year long measurements on an outback GVFX and a 
>> sunny boy for net energy to the grid I got only a few percentages not 10%  I 
>> think one of the problems is the battery selection, these new batteries from 
>> Outback seem to have very low self discharge so very little energy should be 
>> expended to keep them charged.  I am trying to close on a system where the 
>> distance from the solar array to the house is far, so I am planning to AC 
>> couple to a Radian to the grid, and I have been sucessful with AC coupleing 
>> on GVFXs and Outback assures me it will workas well with theRradian.  This 
>> install is very sensitive to LOL (loss of load) and has the generator ready 
>> to go, but for the short outages that he has it is a hassel.  (he has worn 
>> out one generator all ready, it was a construction grade genny) 
>>  
>> I am hoping if this system is a go to consider a Xantrex 600 volt charge 
>> controller, but it depends upon the customer
>> thanks for the patence
>> Darryl
>> 
>> From: Drake 
>> To: RE-wrenches  
>> Sent: Friday, March 2, 2012 9:31 AM
>> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Grid-Tied, PV by AC or DC
>> 
>> I think the AC coupled approach would be the best.  For the 10KW system, a 
>> pair of Sunny Islands fed by Sunny Boys would make an efficient system.  
>> Since there is no generator, the system should be fairly straight forward. 
>> 
>> At 02:06 AM 3/2/2012, you wrote:
>> 
>>> i think mark was asking more about ac coupling to get away from the 
>>> horrible inefficiencies of battery based, grid-tied inverters.
>>> 
>>>  
>>> 
>>> as an experiment, i have been thinking about ac coupling one (or more) of 
>>> my arrays on my outback system to gain 10% over having the gvfx do the 
>>> selling.
>>> 
>>>  
>>> 
>>> stc to ptc usually costs about 20%, then losing another 10% in the inverter 
>>> is a real performance hit. i advise customers about phantom loads and 
>>> conservation, when actually the battery based inverter is itself the big 
>>> lump under the carpet!
>>> 
>>>  
>>> 
>>> todd
>>> 
>>>  
>>> 
>>>  
>>> 
>>>  
>>> 
>>>  
>>> 
>>>  
>>> 
>>> On Thursday, March 1, 2012 7:07pm, "Maverick Brown [Maverick Solar]" 
>>>  said:
>>> 
>>> My two cents:
>>> "battery-based inverter w/ PV on the DC side via charge controllers"
>>> Simply replace the GT inverter with a Xantrex 600V Charge Controller plus 
>>> the 48V Grid Interactive Inverter of your choice and added battery bank, 
>>> etc.
>>> Until the market is saturated with unneeded GT Inverters, you will be ok. 
>>> ;-)
>>> Try your best to provide enough battery for at least 24 hours of outage at 
>>> 5

[RE-wrenches] damaged in Hurricane Sandy

[Larry Brown]

Wrenches,

I am looking for 8- Sanyo HIP200BA19 modules that were damaged in Hurricane 
Sandy and need to be replaced.
Please contact me off list if you know of any

Thanks
Larry Brown
Sun Mountain
845-657-8096
sunmount...@netstep.net

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Re: [RE-wrenches] crystalline VS uni-solar

[Larry Crutcher]

Geoff,

When you mentioned "plenty of partial shading", that settled the issue  
for me. Every cell in Uni-Solar modules have a bypass diode allowing  
them to handle shading better than any other module I know of. For  
potentially shaded areas or high ambient temperatures, it is our  
module of choice. After 6 years of selling and installing Uni-Solar,  
we have only had one failure. Their performance here in our very hot  
climate is outstanding.


As for the mismatching module sizes, the 68 is half the voltage of the  
136 but the same current. They both use the same cells. If you are  
only using a single string the MPPT controller will simple adjust for  
the Vmp of that circuit. However, as with any array, if you have  
multiple strings with mismatched string voltages, the controller will  
"see" a lower average and you will, at the least, be wasting power.  
The bypass diodes have nothing to do with mismatched strings.


If you are comparing arrays with different angle of incidence and  
without shading, the one most perpendicular to the sun will perform  
the best.


Kindest Regards,

Larry Crutcher
Starlight Solar
11279 S. Glenwood Ave #4
Yuma, AZ 85367
(928) 941-1660

[EMAIL PROTECTED]
www.starlightsolar.com


On Oct 31, 2008, at 8:08 AM, Geoff Greenfield wrote:

As a follow up to my uni-solar post (and thanks to all who provided  
feedback),  I have a second request:


Any references to recent side-by side "shoot-outs" between Unisolar  
and conventional crystaline PV?  Scientific studies?  Your own  
wrench thoughts?


I am more and more often encountering confused customers that are  
considering unisolar systems at zero-tilt (we are at 40 degrees N),  
with plenty of partial shading, after getting a pitch about all  
sorts of advantages of Uni-Solar.  I think that this product has  
it's role and I occasionally sell it... But I am frustrated when I  
truly believe I can deliver a better net energy production with a  
tilted crystalline solution (avoiding the shaded areas).

For a brighter energy future,

Geoff Greenfield
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[RE-wrenches] battery box fan

[Larry Brown]

Wrenches.

On an upgrade to an existing system, we just installed a Xantrex  
XW6048 inverter.  We have a 48 volt dc battery box vent fan that we  
used to run through the relay on the old SW5548.  The XW6048 has a 12  
vdc aux output so I assume we need to install a relay to run the fan,  
12vdc input, that will allow 48 vdc output

Any suggestions on what relay to use?

Thanks

Larry Brown
Sun Mountain
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Re: [RE-wrenches] helical screw piers

[Larry Brown]

Eric,

We just used helical screw piers on a 5.6kw ground mount
The site was difficult due to its slope and soft because the frost  
had come back out after some warm days
There was an excellent chance that a concrete truck would have gotten  
stuck and a back hoe would have made a mess
The 4 wheel drive unit that drives the helical screw piers had no  
trouble navigating the terrain, did no damage to the site, was in and  
out in less than a day.
The piers were in two parallel  rows and all were within 1/2" of our  
string, though that is in the skill of the operator

In very rocky soil it might be more problematic

Larry Brown
Sun Mountain


On Jan 25, 2009, at 8:05 PM, Eric Andrews wrote:

Does anyone have any experience using Helical screw pier footing  
for ground mount racks?




Eric





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Re: [RE-wrenches] helical screw piers

[Larry Brown]

Wrenches,
We used a company called techno Metal Post   
( www.technometalpost.com ) I believe it is a franchise arrangement  
with the main company in Canada. Here is a business opportunity if a  
franchise does not exist in your community.
They are screwed into the ground while hydraulic pressure is applied.  
We received a stamped engineering report after completion that  
identified how many posts were set,  to what depth and how much  
hydraulic pressure had been applied for load bearing capacity

It requires a special unit designed for this purpose
We set 8 posts in 2 rows of 4 and then attached a UniRac U-LA Ground  
Mount racking system for 28 Sanyo 200's
The posts in this case were 2" schedule 40 galvanized steel pipe  
ready for the UniRac mounting system
They also shot the elevation and cut each pipe to the proper height  
so that the relationship between the front row of pipes and the back  
row of pipes was set to receive the racking system and then the  
mounting rails would be at latitude for this site.  We supplied the  
heights that were required.

Many other uses for these screw piers.  Pictures on their website

Larry



On Jan 26, 2009, at 1:48 AM, ASAP POWER! 2 wrote:

Sounds like we gots to have it.  Larry, any pics?   If I assume  
correctly, these are literally screwing into the ground in place of  
a concrete footing.  such that you can place/attach a structural or  
pipe column or its part of the screw.   I can call some local  
rental yards and do some internet searching, but is there a brand  
name to the screw, driver, or a specialized 4WD unit?  How many did  
you drive for 5.6kW?


I had contacted the outfit that advertised on TV/web for a while a  
couple of years ago, but wasn't impressed, however, thought maybe  
with the right soil it could be exceptional tool for quick guy wire  
anchoring purposes for wind towers.   This sounds like something  
more substantial.


Thanks,
Peter D.

From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches- 
boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Larry Brown

Sent: Sunday, January 25, 2009 5:58 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] helical screw piers

Eric,

We just used helical screw piers on a 5.6kw ground mount
The site was difficult due to its slope and soft because the frost  
had come back out after some warm days
There was an excellent chance that a concrete truck would have  
gotten stuck and a back hoe would have made a mess
The 4 wheel drive unit that drives the helical screw piers had no  
trouble navigating the terrain, did no damage to the site, was in  
and out in less than a day.
The piers were in two parallel rows and all were within 1/2" of our  
string, though that is in the skill of the operator

In very rocky soil it might be more problematic

Larry Brown
Sun Mountain


On Jan 25, 2009, at 8:05 PM, Eric Andrews wrote:

Does anyone have any experience using Helical screw pier footing  
for ground mount racks?



Eric



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Re: [RE-wrenches] helical screw piers

[Larry Brown]

Ken,

We have done a lot of ground mounts
We usually do an excavation at least to frost depth, 4 feet here, and  
then use either sonotubes or big foot tubes if the ground is wet, set  
on a couple of inches of gravel.
We then set a 2" schedule 40 galvanized steel pipe, that has been  
drilled near the bottom and a 6" piece of rebar fastened to prevent  
twisting and pull out,  in each form and build a wooden frame around  
the steel to keep them plumb, square and in alignment.  Then we pour  
concrete and often get charged extra for a small load of concrete.   
We come back and strip the wooden framework and hand grade what the  
back hoe was not able to finish.
With the screw piers it was just myself and the equipment operator.  
No damage to the site.  Ready to go the next day with the mounting racks

They charged us $250 per post, labor and material and engineering.
If we had 20 or 30 posts to set it would either be a negotiated price  
for the whole job or a careful calculation as to the least expensive  
option


Larry

On Jan 26, 2009, at 7:40 AM, Ken Schaal wrote:


Would you be able to show the cost for those 8 piers??

Did you do some estimates for pole mounts or concrete pier mounts??

Thanks
Ken

- Original Message -----
From: Larry Brown
To: i...@asappower.com ; RE-wrenches
Sent: Monday, January 26, 2009 7:24 AM
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] helical screw piers

Wrenches,
We used a company called techno Metal Post   
( www.technometalpost.com ) I believe it is a franchise arrangement  
with the main company in Canada. Here is a business opportunity if  
a franchise does not exist in your community.
They are screwed into the ground while hydraulic pressure is  
applied. We received a stamped engineering report after completion  
that identified how many posts were set,  to what depth and how  
much hydraulic pressure had been applied for load bearing capacity

It requires a special unit designed for this purpose
We set 8 posts in 2 rows of 4 and then attached a UniRac U-LA  
Ground Mount racking system for 28 Sanyo 200's
The posts in this case were 2" schedule 40 galvanized steel pipe  
ready for the UniRac mounting system
They also shot the elevation and cut each pipe to the proper height  
so that the relationship between the front row of pipes and the  
back row of pipes was set to receive the racking system and then  
the mounting rails would be at latitude for this site.  We supplied  
the heights that were required.

Many other uses for these screw piers.  Pictures on their website

Larry



On Jan 26, 2009, at 1:48 AM, ASAP POWER! 2 wrote:

Sounds like we gots to have it.  Larry, any pics?   If I assume  
correctly, these are literally screwing into the ground in place  
of a concrete footing.  such that you can place/attach a  
structural or pipe column or its part of the screw.   I can call  
some local rental yards and do some internet searching, but is  
there a brand name to the screw, driver, or a specialized 4WD  
unit?  How many did you drive for 5.6kW?


I had contacted the outfit that advertised on TV/web for a while a  
couple of years ago, but wasn't impressed, however, thought maybe  
with the right soil it could be exceptional tool for quick guy  
wire anchoring purposes for wind towers.   This sounds like  
something more substantial.


Thanks,
Peter D.

From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re- 
wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Larry Brown

Sent: Sunday, January 25, 2009 5:58 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] helical screw piers

Eric,

We just used helical screw piers on a 5.6kw ground mount
The site was difficult due to its slope and soft because the frost  
had come back out after some warm days
There was an excellent chance that a concrete truck would have  
gotten stuck and a back hoe would have made a mess
The 4 wheel drive unit that drives the helical screw piers had no  
trouble navigating the terrain, did no damage to the site, was in  
and out in less than a day.
The piers were in two parallel rows and all were within 1/2" of  
our string, though that is in the skill of the operator

In very rocky soil it might be more problematic

Larry Brown
Sun Mountain


On Jan 25, 2009, at 8:05 PM, Eric Andrews wrote:

Does anyone have any experience using Helical screw pier footing  
for ground mount racks?



Eric



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Options &a

Re: [RE-wrenches] Outback Mate Controller Issues

[Starlight Solar, Larry Crutcher]

Interesting. A customer from Baja, on the Sea of Cortez has a similar problem 
after 2 years trouble free. No ESD potential there. Rebooting the remote did 
not help. Did Outback pant a time bomb!!

Larry
  - Original Message - 
  From: Kirpal Khalsa 
  To: RE-wrenches 
  Sent: Thursday, December 09, 2010 9:30 AM
  Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback Mate Controller Issues


  Good Morning All..we have recently had 2 off grid outback systems go 
haywire.both have been running perfectly for more than 2 years.then all 
of a sudden the mate stops allowing AC inputs.a variety of troubleshooting 
indicated all components were fine.Outback support  took care to help with 
the confirmation that all the components were fine..finally with us being 
stumped, tech support asked us to unplug the mate from the hub and replug it 
back in.Voila!  everything started working properly again..only setting 
that seemed to be changed and needed to be reset was that the chargers on the 
inverters were turned off and a few button pushes later and this was also 
restored..
  Anyone else having any similar experiences?  This is puzzling as we haven't 
ever had this kind of problem and for some coincidental reason we had two 
systems both with long term smooth operating histories have the same 
issue..we appreciated the quick, accessible, competent support from Outback 
tech support but remain puzzled as to what may have triggered these odd 
events..feedback appreciated!


  -- 
  Sunny Regards,
  Kirpal Khalsa
  NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer
  Renewable Energy Systems
  www.oregonsolarworks.com
  541-218-0201 m
  541-592-3958 o



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Re: [RE-wrenches] Battery based hydrogen incidents

[Starlight Solar, Larry Crutcher]

I was hesitant to reply because I surely will look foolish, but perhaps it may 
help someone in the future. I did something very stupid back in 2001 that 
caused an explosion. 

The battery bank (12 volt, 660AH) was located in a metal cargo container next 
to the wall and set in a plastic container. The container had open doors on 
both ends. The battery was in the absorption cycle with heavy gassing. I 
noticed that the positive terminal was slightly loose. Fully aware of the 
danger of the task I was performing, I grabbed my socket wrench and began to 
carefully snug it down. Even though I carefully observed the location of the 
wrench, I did not think about the steel container wall as having a path back to 
battery negative. It did. I blew the top off a battery that I was standing 
over. Fortunately I was wearing safety glasses or I probably would not be here 
today typing this. There was a water hydrant near and I was able to flood my 
face and body for about 15 minutes. No facial scares but a lessen very well 
learned: Do NOT work on batteries that are off gassing. Gassing begins at about 
2.3 volts per cell. If you are a battery novice, I encourage you to thoroughly 
educate yourself and do not neglect your safety gear when working on batteries.

Another event I witnessed: In 2007 I was at a campground and heard an 
explosion. The owner of an RV a few spaces down from me was opening the battery 
compartment as I walked up. Inside he had  un-vented batteries in the same 
compartment as the inverter and other switch gear. His batteries were obviously 
gassing when something sparked it off. The top was blown off a 6 volt battery 
and he had electrolyte everywhere and a damaged cargo door. We work on hundreds 
of RV's and sadly I see this kind of poor "workmanship" every week at our 
service center.

Larry Crutcher
Starlight Solar Power Systems
928-342-9103
  - Original Message - 
  From: Kent Osterberg 
  To: RE-wrenches 
  Sent: Wednesday, December 15, 2010 10:21 AM
  Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Battery based hydrogen incidents


  Sounds like, in general, that the off-grid industry has been fortunate to not 
have hydrogen explosions.  That's good.  No explosions here either.  But one 
shouldn't take that as evidence that it couldn't happen.  I don't believe this 
is a circumstance where it is better to be lucky than good.  That's why I 
recommend doing the calculations.

  Kent Osterberg
  Blue Mountain Solar



  Dana wrote: 
Ken - 



To meet the flow have run 2 and 3 fans to meet the flow. 2" output from the 
fan into a 4" header with a matching 2.5" inlet as far away on the lowest 
portion of the battery box.





In 22+ years in off grid installations I have yet to see or even hear of 
one hydrogen explosion. I get repeatedly asked why we have to go to the efforts 
we go to for box and venting. I am not able to provide even one incident that I 
have heard rumor of.



Q - How many battery based hydrogen incidents have happened in our 
collective experience?







Dana Orzel

Great Solar Works, Inc

E - d...@solarwork.com

V - 970.626.5253

F - 970.626.4140

C - 970.209.4076

web - www.solarwork.com



"Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988"

Do not ever belive anything, but seriously trust through action.



From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org 
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Kent Osterberg
Sent: Tuesday, December 14, 2010 12:07 PM
To: Wrenches
Subject: [RE-wrenches] Battery Venting



Fellow Wrenches,

The discussion about battery venting reminds me of a useful and inexpensive 
program, BattMV, for determining ventilation requirements per EN-50272.  
EN-50272 is a European standard used to determine how much air flow is needed 
for a room, I don't know of a equivalent standard used in the U.S.  It takes a 
surprising amount of ventilation.  For a 400-AH 48-volt L16 bank charged at 
57.6 volts and 24 amps, it's about 7 CFM just to keep the %H2 down to 4%.  A 
12-volt Zephyr vent is good for about 5 CFM!   If you think you are venting 
enough, take some time and study this issue.

Kent Osterberg
Blue Mountain Solar


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[RE-wrenches] Apollo TSW inverters experience

[Starlight Solar, Larry Crutcher]

Has anyone developed any experience with the Apollo TSW inverters? I would like 
to have your opinion about them and the companies responsiveness if problems 
occurred.
Best Regards,

Larry Crutcher

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