[Pharo-users] Teapot and POST:

[horrido]

I'm trying to learn how to use Teapot. The documentation is pretty clear
about how to do GET: but it's thoroughly useless about how to do POST:. Is
there any example for how to do POST:?



--
View this message in context: 
http://forum.world.st/Teapot-and-POST-tp4951616.html
Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

Re: [Pharo-users] Teapot and POST:

[horrido]

Thank you very much! Now, I understand. However, it's not *that* obvious.
Your excellent POST: example really should be in the documentation.


Attila Magyar wrote
> It's basically the same as GET and the others. The request object contains
> the url encoded form data or whatever was posted. The request object is
> the same as ZnRequest with a few additional methods. There is a generic
> at: method that can be used to access both path and queryOrFormParams.





--
View this message in context: 
http://forum.world.st/Teapot-and-POST-tp4951616p4951676.html
Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

[Pharo-users] UUIDGenerator

[horrido]

Is there even one shred of documentation anywhere that shows how to use
UUIDGenerator? A thorough Google search reveals nothing! All I find are
reference materials. I'd like to see just one working code sample, no matter
how simple.



--
View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/UUIDGenerator-tp4951725.html
Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

Re: [Pharo-users] UUIDGenerator

[horrido]

Okay, I figured it out. Here's my method:

generateUUID
| aStream hex s x |
hex := '0123456789ABCDEF'.
x := ByteArray new: 16.
UUIDGenerator default generateBytes: x forVersion: 4.
s := String new: 32.
aStream := WriteStream on: s.
x do: [ :each | aStream nextPut: (hex at: each // 16 + 1).
aStream nextPut: (hex at: each \\ 16 + 1) ].
^ s

Works like a charm. It would've been nice if a similar example was available
/somewhere/ on the web.



--
View this message in context: 
http://forum.world.st/UUIDGenerator-tp4951725p4951731.html
Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

Re: [Pharo-users] UUIDGenerator

[horrido]

Message 'next' is not understood.

But yes,

UUID new hex asUppercase

works fine.

This is what happens when there is inadequate documentation: you end up
doing things the *hard* way.

Thanks.



Sven Van Caekenberghe-2 wrote
> Why not just
> 
>   UUIDGenerator default next hex asUppercase.
> 
> Or even
> 
>   UUID new hex asUppercase.
> 
> ?
> 
> Since you are using #generateBytes:forVersion: (which is an internal
> method BTW), you must be working in an older Pharo image (older than 6).
> We replaced the UUIDGenerator class, the class comment in from the newer
> version.
> 
>> On 17 Jun 2017, at 16:27, horrido <

> horrido.hobbies@

> > wrote:
>> 
>> Okay, I figured it out. Here's my method:
>> 
>> generateUUID
>>| aStream hex s x |
>>hex := '0123456789ABCDEF'.
>>x := ByteArray new: 16.
>>UUIDGenerator default generateBytes: x forVersion: 4.
>>s := String new: 32.
>>aStream := WriteStream on: s.
>>x do: [ :each | aStream nextPut: (hex at: each // 16 + 1).
>>aStream nextPut: (hex at: each \\ 16 + 1) ].
>>^ s
>> 
>> Works like a charm. It would've been nice if a similar example was
>> available
>> /somewhere/ on the web.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> --
>> View this message in context:
>> http://forum.world.st/UUIDGenerator-tp4951725p4951731.html
>> Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>>





--
View this message in context: 
http://forum.world.st/UUIDGenerator-tp4951725p4951743.html
Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

Re: [Pharo-users] UUIDGenerator

[horrido]

I didn't know about the Spotter. That is so frickin' cool!!!

Thanks.


philippeback wrote
> Spotting for hex is hardly complex.
> 
> Shift-Enter hex #im
> 
> --> implementors of hex, first one I see is in ByteArray.
> 
> Shit-Enter hex #se
> 
> --> senders of hex. First one is a test in ByteArray
> 
> testHex
> "self debug: #testHex"
> self assert: #[122 43 213 7] hex = '7a2bd507'.
> self assert: #[151 193 242 221 249 32 153 72 179 41 49 154 48 193 99 134]
> hex = '97c1f2ddf9209948b329319a30c16386'.
> self assert: (ByteArray readHexFrom: '7A2BD507') = #[122 43 213 7].
> self assert: (ByteArray readHexFrom: '7a2bd507') = #[122 43 213 7].
> 
> From this test, one can spot readHexFrom: which uses lowercase or
> uppercase
> for reading.
> 
> And asUppercase, Shift-Enter upper, scrolll down as bit, find
> String>>#asUppercase
> 
> Spotter is really great at finding stuff, and coupled with tests and
> examples it helps in building understanding.
> 
> Agreed, this is not the same as looking for stuff as in, say, Java or
> Python. I find it better in the long run still.
> 
> Phil
> 
> On Sat, Jun 17, 2017 at 9:23 PM, horrido <

> horrido.hobbies@

> > wrote:
> 
>> Message 'next' is not understood.
>>
>> But yes,
>>
>> UUID new hex asUppercase
>>
>> works fine.
>>
>> This is what happens when there is inadequate documentation: you end up
>> doing things the *hard* way.
>>
>> Thanks.
>>
>>
>>
>> Sven Van Caekenberghe-2 wrote
>> > Why not just
>> >
>> >   UUIDGenerator default next hex asUppercase.
>> >
>> > Or even
>> >
>> >   UUID new hex asUppercase.
>> >
>> > ?
>> >
>> > Since you are using #generateBytes:forVersion: (which is an internal
>> > method BTW), you must be working in an older Pharo image (older than
>> 6).
>> > We replaced the UUIDGenerator class, the class comment in from the
>> newer
>> > version.
>> >
>> >> On 17 Jun 2017, at 16:27, horrido <
>>
>> > horrido.hobbies@
>>
>> > > wrote:
>> >>
>> >> Okay, I figured it out. Here's my method:
>> >>
>> >> generateUUID
>> >>| aStream hex s x |
>> >>hex := '0123456789ABCDEF'.
>> >>x := ByteArray new: 16.
>> >>UUIDGenerator default generateBytes: x forVersion: 4.
>> >>s := String new: 32.
>> >>aStream := WriteStream on: s.
>> >>x do: [ :each | aStream nextPut: (hex at: each // 16 + 1).
>> >>aStream nextPut: (hex at: each \\ 16 + 1) ].
>> >>^ s
>> >>
>> >> Works like a charm. It would've been nice if a similar example was
>> >> available
>> >> /somewhere/ on the web.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> --
>> >> View this message in context:
>> >> http://forum.world.st/UUIDGenerator-tp4951725p4951731.html
>> >> Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Users mailing list archive at
>> Nabble.com.
>> >>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/UUIDGenerator-
>> tp4951725p4951743.html
>> Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>>
>>
>>





--
View this message in context: 
http://forum.world.st/UUIDGenerator-tp4951725p4951844.html
Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

[Pharo-users] Teapot session

[horrido]

Does Teapot's (ZnRequest's?) session ever expire? What is the expiry period?

I can't find where it's specified or configured.




--
View this message in context: 
http://forum.world.st/Teapot-session-tp4951845.html
Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

Re: [Pharo-users] Teapot session

[horrido]

I've added an attribute to the session called #user...

req session attributeAt: #user ifAbsentPut: user

This is used to *determine if I'm logged in*. On logout, I would like to
*remove* this attribute, but I can't figure out how to do it. Suggestion?



Sven Van Caekenberghe-2 wrote
> If you are talking about ZnServerSessions, the ones returned from
> ZnRequest>>#session, then the answer is that they are eligible for
> expiration and cleanup after 1 hour (see ZnServerSession>>#isValid).
> Cleanup happens inZnSingleThreadedServer>>#periodTasks. Right now, the
> expiration time is a fixed constant.
> 
>> On 19 Jun 2017, at 08:08, Stephane Ducasse <

> stepharo.self@

> > wrote:
>> 
>> Teapot is a layer on zinc so you may check the Zinc chapters (I do not
>> know if this is there).
>> 
>> 
>> On Mon, Jun 19, 2017 at 1:42 AM, horrido <

> horrido.hobbies@

> > wrote:
>>> Does Teapot's (ZnRequest's?) session ever expire? What is the expiry
>>> period?
>>> 
>>> I can't find where it's specified or configured.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> --
>>> View this message in context:
>>> http://forum.world.st/Teapot-session-tp4951845.html
>>> Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>>> 
>>





--
View this message in context: 
http://forum.world.st/Teapot-session-tp4951845p4951905.html
Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

Re: [Pharo-users] Teapot session

[horrido]

Interesting. Auto-complete doesn't show #removeAttribute: as an option.

Another question: After I've logged out, I can still click on Backpage in
the browser to get to a page that should no longer be authorized. Is there a
way to prevent this? Is there a way to invalidate the page?



Sven Van Caekenberghe-2 wrote
>> On 19 Jun 2017, at 15:40, horrido <

> horrido.hobbies@

> > wrote:
>> 
>> I've added an attribute to the session called #user...
>> 
>> req session attributeAt: #user ifAbsentPut: user
>> 
>> This is used to *determine if I'm logged in*. On logout, I would like to
>> *remove* this attribute, but I can't figure out how to do it. Suggestion?
> 
> req session removeAttribute: #user
> 
>> Sven Van Caekenberghe-2 wrote
>>> If you are talking about ZnServerSessions, the ones returned from
>>> ZnRequest>>#session, then the answer is that they are eligible for
>>> expiration and cleanup after 1 hour (see ZnServerSession>>#isValid).
>>> Cleanup happens inZnSingleThreadedServer>>#periodTasks. Right now, the
>>> expiration time is a fixed constant.
>>> 
>>>> On 19 Jun 2017, at 08:08, Stephane Ducasse <
>> 
>>> stepharo.self@
>> 
>>> > wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> Teapot is a layer on zinc so you may check the Zinc chapters (I do not
>>>> know if this is there).
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> On Mon, Jun 19, 2017 at 1:42 AM, horrido <
>> 
>>> horrido.hobbies@
>> 
>>> > wrote:
>>>>> Does Teapot's (ZnRequest's?) session ever expire? What is the expiry
>>>>> period?
>>>>> 
>>>>> I can't find where it's specified or configured.
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> --
>>>>> View this message in context:
>>>>> http://forum.world.st/Teapot-session-tp4951845.html
>>>>> Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Users mailing list archive at
>>>>> Nabble.com.
>>>>> 
>>>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> --
>> View this message in context:
>> http://forum.world.st/Teapot-session-tp4951845p4951905.html
>> Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com.





--
View this message in context: 
http://forum.world.st/Teapot-session-tp4951845p4951908.html
Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

[Pharo-users] How to use HTTPS (SSL) with Zinc

[horrido]

Okay, so I have my nice little Teapot app, but I'd like to run it as HTTPS.
As far as I can understand, to do this I must go through Zinc. However, the
docs on the web seem rather out of date. For example, I do not have
ZnZincServerAdapter (in Pharo 5.0).

In the simplest terms, how do I support HTTPS? (I've created my self-signed
cert.)

Thanks.



--
View this message in context: 
http://forum.world.st/How-to-use-HTTPS-SSL-with-Zinc-tp4952461.html
Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

Re: [Pharo-users] How to use HTTPS (SSL) with Zinc

[horrido]

I get an "SSL Exception: accept failed [code:-5]" error. Is it because I have
a self-signed cert?

Apparently, it's failing on:

result := self sslSession accept: in from: 1 to: count into: out.



Sven Van Caekenberghe-2 wrote
> Hi,
> 
>> On 23 Jun 2017, at 20:41, horrido <

> horrido.hobbies@

> > wrote:
>> 
>> Okay, so I have my nice little Teapot app, but I'd like to run it as
>> HTTPS.
>> As far as I can understand, to do this I must go through Zinc. However,
>> the
>> docs on the web seem rather out of date. For example, I do not have
>> ZnZincServerAdapter (in Pharo 5.0).
> 
> ZnZincServerAdapter is specific for Seaside.
> 
>> In the simplest terms, how do I support HTTPS? (I've created my
>> self-signed cert.)
> 
> (ZnSecureServer on: 1443)
>   certificate: '/home/sven/ssl/key-cert.pem';
>   logToTranscript;
>   start;
>   yourself.
> 
> I don't know how Teapot is implemented, but it uses Zinc, so somehow it
> will work. You should figure where/how it creates/starts its ZnServer.
> 
> Note that this might not run on every platform (it depends on the SSL
> plugin, I know Linux used to work).
> 
> Sven
> 
>> Thanks.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> --
>> View this message in context:
>> http://forum.world.st/How-to-use-HTTPS-SSL-with-Zinc-tp4952461.html
>> Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>>





--
View this message in context: 
http://forum.world.st/How-to-use-HTTPS-SSL-with-Zinc-tp4952461p4952476.html
Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

Re: [Pharo-users] How to use HTTPS (SSL) with Zinc

[horrido]

This is on my Raspberry Pi running the latest Raspbian. I'm using Pharo 5.0.

The browser is Firefox.



Sven Van Caekenberghe-2 wrote
>> On 23 Jun 2017, at 23:39, horrido <

> horrido.hobbies@

> > wrote:
>> 
>> I get an "SSL Exception: accept failed [code:-5]" error. Is it because I
>> have
>> a self-signed cert?
>> 
>> Apparently, it's failing on:
>> 
>> result := self sslSession accept: in from: 1 to: count into: out.
> 
> Platform ? Pharo version ?
> 
> It also depends on how you made the certificate. Note that not all
> browsers like self-signed certificates.
> 
> It should work on Linux. This is how I once did it (making the
> certificate), in 2013-2014 (I know that others have managed to do this
> too):
> 
> 
> 
> sven@netbook:~/ssl$ openssl genrsa -out privkey.pem 1024
> Generating RSA private key, 1024 bit long modulus
> ..++
> .++
> e is 65537 (0x10001)
> sven@netbook:~/ssl$ openssl req -new -key privkey.pem -out certreq.csr
> You are about to be asked to enter information that will be incorporated
> into your certificate request.
> What you are about to enter is what is called a Distinguished Name or a
> DN.
> There are quite a few fields but you can leave some blank
> For some fields there will be a default value,
> If you enter '.', the field will be left blank.
> -
> Country Name (2 letter code) [AU]:BE
> State or Province Name (full name) [Some-State]:
> Locality Name (eg, city) []:Hasselt
> Organization Name (eg, company) [Internet Widgits Pty Ltd]:STfx.eu
> Organizational Unit Name (eg, section) []:
> Common Name (e.g. server FQDN or YOUR name) []:Sven Van Caekenberghe
> Email Address []:

> sven@

> 
> Please enter the following 'extra' attributes
> to be sent with your certificate request
> A challenge password []:
> An optional company name []:
> sven@netbook:~/ssl$ ls
> certreq.csr  privkey.pem
> sven@netbook:~/ssl$ openssl x509 -req -days 3650 -in certreq.csr -signkey
> privkey.pem -out newcert.pem
> Signature ok
> subject=/C=BE/ST=Some-State/L=Hasselt/O=STfx.eu/CN=Sven Van
> Caekenberghe/emailAddress=

> sven@

> Getting Private key
> sven@netbook:~/ssl$ ( openssl x509 -in newcert.pem; cat privkey.pem ) >
> server.pem
> 
> 
> 
> (ZnSecureServer on: 1443)
>   certificate: '/home/sven/ssl/server.pem';
>   logToTranscript;
>   start;
>   yourself.
> 
> 
> 
>> Sven Van Caekenberghe-2 wrote
>>> Hi,
>>> 
>>>> On 23 Jun 2017, at 20:41, horrido <
>> 
>>> horrido.hobbies@
>> 
>>> > wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> Okay, so I have my nice little Teapot app, but I'd like to run it as
>>>> HTTPS.
>>>> As far as I can understand, to do this I must go through Zinc. However,
>>>> the
>>>> docs on the web seem rather out of date. For example, I do not have
>>>> ZnZincServerAdapter (in Pharo 5.0).
>>> 
>>> ZnZincServerAdapter is specific for Seaside.
>>> 
>>>> In the simplest terms, how do I support HTTPS? (I've created my
>>>> self-signed cert.)
>>> 
>>> (ZnSecureServer on: 1443)
>>>  certificate: '/home/sven/ssl/key-cert.pem';
>>>  logToTranscript;
>>>  start;
>>>  yourself.
>>> 
>>> I don't know how Teapot is implemented, but it uses Zinc, so somehow it
>>> will work. You should figure where/how it creates/starts its ZnServer.
>>> 
>>> Note that this might not run on every platform (it depends on the SSL
>>> plugin, I know Linux used to work).
>>> 
>>> Sven
>>> 
>>>> Thanks.
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> --
>>>> View this message in context:
>>>> http://forum.world.st/How-to-use-HTTPS-SSL-with-Zinc-tp4952461.html
>>>> Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>>>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> --
>> View this message in context:
>> http://forum.world.st/How-to-use-HTTPS-SSL-with-Zinc-tp4952461p4952476.html
>> Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com.





--
View this message in context: 
http://forum.world.st/How-to-use-HTTPS-SSL-with-Zinc-tp4952461p4952478.html
Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

Re: [Pharo-users] How to use HTTPS (SSL) with Zinc

[horrido]

I discovered that I skipped an important step in creating the SSL cert. HTTPS
is now working. However, for some reason, it's not finding my Teapot routes.
The route that worked in http://localhost:1701/login, for example, no longer
works in https://localhost:1443/login. I'm investigating...





--
View this message in context: 
http://forum.world.st/How-to-use-HTTPS-SSL-with-Zinc-tp4952461p4952492.html
Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

Re: [Pharo-users] How to use HTTPS (SSL) with Zinc

[horrido]

Okay, I think I understand. There are two server instances, one for http and
one for https. How do I get Teapot to use the one for https???


horrido wrote
> I discovered that I skipped an important step in creating the SSL cert.
> HTTPS is now working. However, for some reason, it's not finding my Teapot
> routes. The route that worked in http://localhost:1701/login, for example,
> no longer works in https://localhost:1443/login. I'm investigating...





--
View this message in context: 
http://forum.world.st/How-to-use-HTTPS-SSL-with-Zinc-tp4952461p4952493.html
Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

Re: [Pharo-users] How to use HTTPS (SSL) with Zinc

[horrido]

Are you referring to ConfigurationOfTeapot? I presume it's not loaded by your
instruction:

Gofer it
smalltalkhubUser: 'zeroflag' project: 'Teapot';
configuration;
loadStable.

So how do I load it?



Attila Magyar wrote
> Teapot uses ZnServer defaultServerClass by default, but you can configure
> Teapot to use other kind of ZnServers like this.

> 
> This is available only in the latest development version.





--
View this message in context: 
http://forum.world.st/How-to-use-HTTPS-SSL-with-Zinc-tp4952461p4952505.html
Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

Re: [Pharo-users] How to use HTTPS (SSL) with Zinc

[horrido]

Okay, I should've asked, how do I get the development version?



horrido wrote
> Are you referring to ConfigurationOfTeapot? I presume it's not loaded by
> your instruction:
> 
> Gofer it
> smalltalkhubUser: 'zeroflag' project: 'Teapot';
> configuration;
> loadStable.
> 
> So how do I load it?
> 
> Attila Magyar wrote
>> Teapot uses ZnServer defaultServerClass by default, but you can configure
>> Teapot to use other kind of ZnServers like this.

>> 
>> This is available only in the latest development version.





--
View this message in context: 
http://forum.world.st/How-to-use-HTTPS-SSL-with-Zinc-tp4952461p4952506.html
Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

[Pharo-users] PreDebugWindow: Report to whom?

[horrido]

In the PreDebugWindow, there is an option to Report an exception. But to whom
does it report? I can't find any documentation for this.

I presume most developers would never need to Report anything.



--
View this message in context: 
http://forum.world.st/PreDebugWindow-Report-to-whom-tp4953974.html
Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

[Pharo-users] Using the Debugger to write code

[horrido]

The *Pharo By Example* book says that you can use the Debugger to write code.
So if you have a "does not understand" error, you're given the option of
Creating a new method. That's cool.

But for the life of me, I can't figure out how to create new classes for my
application from within the Debugger. Must I create new classes using the
System Browser first before I can continue adding new methods from within
the Debugger? What's the recommended procedure for all this?

Thanks.



--
View this message in context: 
http://forum.world.st/Using-the-Debugger-to-write-code-tp4954451.html
Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

[Pharo-users] In Praise of the Very Best Programming Language

[horrido]

My farewell article? 
https://medium.com/@richardeng/in-praise-of-the-very-best-programming-language-eae36ae434af

  



--
View this message in context: 
http://forum.world.st/In-Praise-of-the-Very-Best-Programming-Language-tp4955487.html
Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

[Pharo-users] Can anyone answer this?

[horrido]

Miles Fidelman (at Quora) and I were having an argument about the suitability
of Smalltalk (Pharo) for large maintainable software projects. The problem
is, I've never used Smalltalk in a commercial setting, esp. with respect to
large projects. Without that experience, I am wholly unqualified to answer
his response, which follows...

*I just spent a little time looking at a couple of big projects that use(d)
Smalltalk - JWARS & the Seaside web server. And I discovered that both have
basically avoided the “live coding environment” aspects of Smalltalk.

JWARS incorporates a lot of access & configuration controls that limit who
can change which parts of the system.

Seaside seems to follow standard development processes - with a version
control system, and formal releases.

Which kind of reinforces what I see as issues with Smalltalk from a system
building & maintenance point of view:

1) When everything is a work in progress, it’s impossible to manage a
project, maintain deployed code (“what version do you have, what did you
modify? clearly that’s where the bug is”), update things (interfaces change,
updates overwrite local mods), etc.

2) The typical deployment model is to deploy a completely new virtual
machine & environment. For some things (e.g., servers), that works - and
seems to be the way of the world with containerization - but for other
things (e.g., desktop applications), deploying an entire new environment for
every patch is just a bit match.

3) Gross violation of “principle of least privilege.” Live code,
particularly multi-user code, that can be modified by its users - now that
is a surefire recipe for disaster.*



--
View this message in context: 
http://forum.world.st/Can-anyone-answer-this-tp4955861.html
Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

[Pharo-users] The Wisdom of the Crowd Redux

[horrido]

I'm glad people in the programming community are recognizing the value of
Smalltalk:  The Wisdom of the Crowd
  . I
was very pleasantly surprised by this.



--
View this message in context: 
http://forum.world.st/The-Wisdom-of-the-Crowd-Redux-tp4963261.html
Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

[Pharo-users] Minimizing an Application

[horrido]

I received this comment on Facebook:

Smalltalk is a fantastic language and its development environment can't be
beat... But the documentation for the many open source implementations is
contradictory or confusing or missing. I can't speak for the commercial
versions. Without an experienced mentor it is not possible to create a
complex app. And even when you have done so, *I know no way to strip out the
unused part of the image as well as the embedded source code*.
-

This issue of stripping out unused code seems to recur a lot. And truth be
told, I've never seen a clear explanation of how to do this. Can someone
provide clear direction? Is this documented anywhere? I'd like to use the
information in future to assuage other people's concerns.

Thanks.



--
View this message in context: 
http://forum.world.st/Minimizing-an-Application-tp4963262.html
Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

Re: [Pharo-users] Minimizing an Application

[horrido]

If you start with a minimal imaqe, it's not obvious to me how you'd add a
missing class and pull in all of its dependencies (which can be voluminous).
And for a large application, there could be many, many missing classes. This
sounds rather arduous.


Tim Mackinnon wrote
> There has been a lot of great work on this front on the Pharo side from
> the "team" and PharoLambda has made use of it (although it's a tiny
> project).
> 
> My footprint is ~22mb including vm & image. And leaving out sources.
> 
> The ./scripts directory has the example of how to do it, along side the
> .gitlab-ci.yml file.
> 
> Unlike the commercial distributions (and this may have changed recently),
> there is a minimal image you can have download, which has enough to
> bootstrap loading your project via metacello. There are no browser tools
> or morphic things in the starting image I have chosen.
> 
> You can potentially get smaller - but it's a decent result. The only bit I
> added was to remove testcases (optional), and clear down metacello.
> 
> It's probably worthy of a blog post - but honestly the running example is
> pretty straight forward.
> 
> The commercial tools all have a decent "strip dead code" tool, that does a
> similar thing in reverse - which is equally a decent way of approaching
> the problem and can lead to even tinier results.
> 
> Tim
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
>> On 21 Aug 2017, at 21:25, horrido <

> horrido.hobbies@

> > wrote:
>> 
>> I received this comment on Facebook:
>> 
>> Smalltalk is a fantastic language and its development environment can't
>> be
>> beat... But the documentation for the many open source implementations is
>> contradictory or confusing or missing. I can't speak for the commercial
>> versions. Without an experienced mentor it is not possible to create a
>> complex app. And even when you have done so, *I know no way to strip out
>> the
>> unused part of the image as well as the embedded source code*.
>> -
>> 
>> This issue of stripping out unused code seems to recur a lot. And truth
>> be
>> told, I've never seen a clear explanation of how to do this. Can someone
>> provide clear direction? Is this documented anywhere? I'd like to use the
>> information in future to assuage other people's concerns.
>> 
>> Thanks.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> --
>> View this message in context:
>> http://forum.world.st/Minimizing-an-Application-tp4963262.html
>> Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>>





--
View this message in context: 
http://forum.world.st/Minimizing-an-Application-tp4963262p4963349.html
Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

Re: [Pharo-users] The Wisdom of the Crowd Redux

[horrido]

Quite right. When you tout the wisdom of the crowd, you have to back it up
with simple, persuasive arguments. That's what my blog series over the past
three years have been all about! I just keep hammering away at the same
simple, persuasive arguments again and again and again and again. Ad
nauseum.

Similarly, if I insult your favourite language, whether that's C or
JavaScript or Common Lisp, I better back it up with clear points.



Offray Vladimir Luna Cárdenas-2 wrote
> Yes, thanks for sharing it Richard.
> 
> For me the issue with wisdom of the crowd arguments is, as you point at
> the end of the article, that also crowd can be pretty stupid, so
> when/how you difference between both cases? At some point seems like
> crowd is wise when they share my opinion and dumb when they don't. A
> different argument I have found in favor or non-popular but powerful
> languages is made by Matthew Butterick[1] in the case of Lisp/Racket by
> deconstructing the ad-populum falacy (something is good, because is
> popular) and then going beyond the frequent flattery of authoritative
> voices, giving real examples from a first person perspective. I think
> that is an interesting and novel approach for advocacy.
> 
> [1] http://practicaltypography.com/why-racket-why-lisp.html
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Offray
> 
> On 22/08/17 12:09, Ben Coman wrote:
>> nice article. thanks for sharing.
>> cheers -ben
>>
>> On Tue, Aug 22, 2017 at 4:14 AM, horrido <

> horrido.hobbies@

> > <mailto:

> horrido.hobbies@

> >> wrote:
>>
>> I'm glad people in the programming community are recognizing the
>> value of
>> Smalltalk:  The Wisdom of the Crowd
>>
>> <https://medium.com/@richardeng/the-wisdom-of-the-crowd-c7aff954bd5f
> >
> <https://medium.com/@richardeng/the-wisdom-of-the-crowd-c7aff954bd5f>;> 
>> . I
>> was very pleasantly surprised by this.
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> View this message in context:
>> http://forum.world.st/The-Wisdom-of-the-Crowd-Redux-tp4963261.html
>>
>> <http://forum.world.st/The-Wisdom-of-the-Crowd-Redux-tp4963261.html>;
>> Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Users mailing list archive at
>> Nabble.com.
>>
>>





--
View this message in context: 
http://forum.world.st/The-Wisdom-of-the-Crowd-Redux-tp4963261p4964407.html
Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

[Pharo-users] Dark Mode

[horrido]

I found this  interesting article

 
. I wanted to express my opinion...

Dark mode looks cool and all, but it does have a downside. I was very happy
with the normal Pharo 5.0 look, but when Pharo 6.0 came out with its dark
theme, I was rather put off by it. For me, at least, the dark theme makes it
harder to read the text. Too bad Pharo isn't themable.



--
View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/Dark-Mode-tp4964409.html
Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

Re: [Pharo-users] Dark Mode

[horrido]

Oh, cool! I didn't realize that. (I've never had a need to look at Settings.)

Thanks.



--
View this message in context: 
http://forum.world.st/Dark-Mode-tp4964409p4964436.html
Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

[Pharo-users] You can help me

[horrido]

I'm writing an article about Pharo. I would like to list the Top 10 "really
big" things that have been developed in the past several years, /or are
being developed right now/. Please word it in a way that laypeople (like
CTOs and non-Smalltalkers) can understand. Thanks.

(I know "really big" is rather subjective. I leave it to your discretion.)



--
Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html

[Pharo-users] Behold Pharo: The Modern Smalltalk

[horrido]

Behold Pharo: The Modern Smalltalk

  

If you would like to suggest some edits, I'm all ears. Anything to improve
the impact of the article.

Thanks.



--
Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html

Re: [Pharo-users] Behold Pharo: The Modern Smalltalk

[horrido]

Yes, the "updated" angle was the crucial tactic. Thanks.

I just wanted to inform you that in just 48 hours since publication, this
article has gathered over 11,000 views! This is a new record for me. Fastest
rising.

I am astounded by the number; I really didn't expect it. It's a very, very
nice way to end my campaign on a high note. Hopefully, Pharo (and Smalltalk)
will become more popular.

Cheers.



--
Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html

Re: [Pharo-users] Behold Pharo: The Modern Smalltalk

[horrido]

I've incorporated some of the suggestions. Thanks.

Here's a very lively discussion at Hacker News:
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15399442

The article has sparked a raging debate. Hacker News readers seem to really
like the article, as it has garnered 150 points, /more than any other
article that I've ever posted!/

(Even  my original TechBeacon article
  
-- which launched my campaign! -- only got 115 points.)

You should all participate in the discussion and help to dispel the many
misconceptions people have about Pharo/Smalltalk. I find a great deal of
ignorance out there, and *only you folks* can address it properly.

Thanks.



--
Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html

Re: [Pharo-users] Behold Pharo: The Modern Smalltalk

[horrido]

I received this comment from someone who complained:

*What about the lack of documentation? From time to time I’ve checked some
SmallTalk implementations like Squeak, GNU-Smalltalk and now Pharo. Of
these, only GNU-SmallTalk appears to have a free, official programming guide
and core library reference that any serious programmer expects from a
language.

https://www.gnu.org/software/smalltalk/manual-base/html_node/*

I pointed to Pharo's documentation but then he came back with:

*Then show me a link of the free, maintained reference documentation for the
classes that form “the core library”, like this one for Python
(https://docs.python.org/3/library/index.html)*

It's true, most Smalltalks do not have a core library reference, not even
VisualWorks! So what is the proper response to this complaint?

Thanks.



--
Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html

Re: [Pharo-users] Behold Pharo: The Modern Smalltalk

[horrido]

Thanks. I gave your answer verbatim. I also added the following paragraph:

The problem I find with today’s developers is that they are rather
closed-minded. They are rigid and inflexible, and not willing to adapt to
new and different ways of doing things. In my generation (circa 1980–1990),
people didn’t have a problem with trying different technologies. That’s why
I had no issue with learning Smalltalk 10 years ago, after I had retired
from a 20-year-long career in C systems programming and FORTRAN scientific
programming.



Sven Van Caekenberghe-2 wrote
>> On 6 Oct 2017, at 14:54, horrido <

> horrido.hobbies@

> > wrote:
>> 
>> I received this comment from someone who complained:
>> 
>> *What about the lack of documentation? From time to time I’ve checked
>> some
>> SmallTalk implementations like Squeak, GNU-Smalltalk and now Pharo. Of
>> these, only GNU-SmallTalk appears to have a free, official programming
>> guide
>> and core library reference that any serious programmer expects from a
>> language.
>> 
>> https://www.gnu.org/software/smalltalk/manual-base/html_node/*
>> 
>> I pointed to Pharo's documentation but then he came back with:
>> 
>> *Then show me a link of the free, maintained reference documentation for
>> the
>> classes that form “the core library”, like this one for Python
>> (https://docs.python.org/3/library/index.html)*
>> 
>> It's true, most Smalltalks do not have a core library reference, not even
>> VisualWorks! So what is the proper response to this complaint?
> 
> The first answer is that Pharo/Smalltalk is unique in that a running
> system/IDE contains _all_ source code, _all_ documentation (class, method,
> help, tutorial), _all_ unit tests and _all_ runnable examples in a very
> easy, accessible way. It takes some getting used to, but this is actually
> better and much more powerful than any alternative.
> 
> The second answer is that there are lots of books and articles that take
> the classic/structured book/paper approach. There is
> http://books.pharo.org, http://themoosebook.org,
> http://book.seaside.st/book, http://medium.com/concerning-pharo and many
> more.
> 
>> Thanks.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> --
>> Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html
>>





--
Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html

Re: [Pharo-users] Behold Pharo: The Modern Smalltalk

[horrido]

To be honest, I didn't know you could do live coding in Python, Ruby, C/C++.
I had only ever heard of "hot swapping" in Java.

At any rate, I'd be surprised if live coding in these languages was as easy
and convenient as in Pharo/Smalltalk.



Sven Van Caekenberghe-2 wrote
> Yes, you are right: Pharo/Smalltalk is more or less the same as
> Ruby/Python/C/C++ in terms of power & flexibility of OOP and in live
> coding.
> 
> Come on.
> 
>> On 6 Oct 2017, at 23:18, Dimitris Chloupis <

> kilon.alios@

> > wrote:
>> 
>> Wise not to mention Ruby and Python and Pick the worst of the worst in
>> OOP. Because frankly the competition for Pharo against those two
>> behemoths can be quite brutal in the flexibility and power of OOP. 
>> 
>> And no , these language can do live coding with ease. I know because I
>> currently code live coding style with Python for an app I am making. Sure
>> it wont provide you with a live system out of the box, but put in 10
>> lines of code and you already ready to go with hardcore live coding. At
>> least Python , Ruby being practically a rip off of Smalltalk language may
>> need even less. 
>> 
>> iPython which by the way is by far the most popular Python tool is the
>> real deal, a full blow live coding enviroment. 
>> 
>> To my suprise its not even hard to do live coding with C/C++ including
>> using image format. To my shock live coding is actually supported by both
>> the OS and the hardware. Hardware has its own exception system , OS has
>> an image flie format called "memory mapped files" used for DLLs and a lot
>> of essential functionality. 
>> 
>> For some weird reason however its well hidden and not that much utilised
>> by coders. They really love long compile times, dont ask me why. 
>> 
>> But yeah C++ even though it has come a long way with its template system,
>> its still the king of ugly. That sytax, oh the horrors of that
>> syntax. yiaks !!!
>> 
>> I am so enternal greatful that Pharo introduced me to live coding and
>> opened my eyes to universe of fun and productivity. I cannot imagine
>> coding an other way ever again. 
>> 
>> I really hope that we take this further though. 
>> 
>> On Wed, Oct 4, 2017 at 1:31 PM horrido <

> horrido.hobbies@

> > wrote:
>> Behold Pharo: The Modern Smalltalk
>> <https://medium.com/smalltalk-talk/behold-pharo-the-modern-smalltalk-38e132c46053>;
>> 
>> If you would like to suggest some edits, I'm all ears. Anything to
>> improve
>> the impact of the article.
>> 
>> Thanks.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> --
>> Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html
>>





--
Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html

Re: [Pharo-users] Behold Pharo: The Modern Smalltalk

[horrido]

> My point is that indeed you can do with EASE live coding in a numerous
languages, at least to my experience. I have tried only Python and C/C++.

Until I came upon this thread, I never knew you could do live coding in
Python and C/C++. And I was a professional C/C++ programmer for over 15
years!

It is certainly a well-kept secret. I have found very little information on
the web about doing live coding in these languages (in fact, none). This
leads me to believe that the vast majority of Python and C/C++ developers
don't know about, or don't do, live coding.

Whether it's "easy" is rather subjective. I suspect it's not as easy nor as
convenient as in Pharo. If it were, then live coding ought to be much more
prevalent in the Python and C/C++ communities. After all, what developer
doesn't want to improve their productivity or increase their velocity of
development?

The key differentiator here, I think, is that live coding is baked into
Pharo/Smalltalk, thus making it natural to use. It is not natural for Python
and C/C++ programmers. It would be difficult to convince the IT industry to
adopt live coding en masse.



--
Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html

[Pharo-users] What does RMoD stand for?

[horrido]

It is bizarre. Nowhere on the web can I find any reference to what INRIA's
*RMoD* acronym stands for.



--
Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html

Re: [Pharo-users] Behold Pharo: The Modern Smalltalk

[horrido]

Hey, guys, I'm mentioned in this  O'Reilly newsletter

 
!!! All because of the Pharo article.

I wonder, is my campaign /actually/ succeeding? If so, I can die happy. ;-)



--
Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html

[Pharo-users] FYI about Pharo MOOC

[horrido]

Somebody posted this about the Pharo MOOC:
https://medium.com/@josephshirk/it-would-be-nice-if-it-were-in-english-b07f6445f23

To which I responded:
https://medium.com/@richardeng/the-videos-are-like-lecturers-in-university-49a68c23cf01

Some food for thought.



--
Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html

Re: [Pharo-users] Behold Pharo: The Modern Smalltalk

[horrido]

Interestingly, I'm getting a fair amount of pushback on this. Personally, I
think it would be very helpful to have a live (updatable, so as to keep it
current) reference page for the class library, something that developers can
easily look up what they need. After all, most of the power of Pharo comes
from the class library and we need to make it as accessible as possible to
less experienced Pharoers (i.e., beginners).

Exploring the class library through the System Browser is very inefficient.
This is further exacerbated by the fact that many classes and methods are
simply not well-documented (containing a cursory remark which is just barely
useful).

I realize that creating a live reference page is not easy to do. In fact,
it's a lot of work. But the absence of such a page is a real obstacle to
Pharo acceptance.



horrido wrote
> Thanks. I gave your answer verbatim. I also added the following paragraph:
> 
> The problem I find with today’s developers is that they are rather
> closed-minded. They are rigid and inflexible, and not willing to adapt to
> new and different ways of doing things. In my generation (circa
> 1980–1990),
> people didn’t have a problem with trying different technologies. That’s
> why
> I had no issue with learning Smalltalk 10 years ago, after I had retired
> from a 20-year-long career in C systems programming and FORTRAN scientific
> programming.
> 
> 
> 
> Sven Van Caekenberghe-2 wrote
>>> On 6 Oct 2017, at 14:54, horrido <
> 
>> horrido.hobbies@
> 
>> > wrote:
>>> 
>>> I received this comment from someone who complained:
>>> 
>>> *What about the lack of documentation? From time to time I’ve checked
>>> some
>>> SmallTalk implementations like Squeak, GNU-Smalltalk and now Pharo. Of
>>> these, only GNU-SmallTalk appears to have a free, official programming
>>> guide
>>> and core library reference that any serious programmer expects from a
>>> language.
>>> 
>>> https://www.gnu.org/software/smalltalk/manual-base/html_node/*
>>> 
>>> I pointed to Pharo's documentation but then he came back with:
>>> 
>>> *Then show me a link of the free, maintained reference documentation for
>>> the
>>> classes that form “the core library”, like this one for Python
>>> (https://docs.python.org/3/library/index.html)*
>>> 
>>> It's true, most Smalltalks do not have a core library reference, not
>>> even
>>> VisualWorks! So what is the proper response to this complaint?
>> 
>> The first answer is that Pharo/Smalltalk is unique in that a running
>> system/IDE contains _all_ source code, _all_ documentation (class,
>> method,
>> help, tutorial), _all_ unit tests and _all_ runnable examples in a very
>> easy, accessible way. It takes some getting used to, but this is actually
>> better and much more powerful than any alternative.
>> 
>> The second answer is that there are lots of books and articles that take
>> the classic/structured book/paper approach. There is
>> http://books.pharo.org, http://themoosebook.org,
>> http://book.seaside.st/book, http://medium.com/concerning-pharo and many
>> more.
>> 
>>> Thanks.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> --
>>> Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html
>>>
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> --
> Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html





--
Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html

Re: [Pharo-users] Behold Pharo: The Modern Smalltalk

[horrido]

I'll second that. Having separate namespaces would be really good.
VisualWorks has them. Why not Pharo?



kilon.alios wrote
> The one things I trully miss, even know that I am "experieced" Pharo
> coder,
> depending on your standards, is python namespaces
> 
> I dont care about the dot syntax but containers of containers at language
> level that will make me avoid giving weird names to my Pharo classes to
> avoid potential collisions is a must have for me. It would also make the
> System Browser experience much smoother not only for beginners but also
> experts in Pharo.
> 
> Also again under the threat of being thrown tomoatoes (probably justified)
> I would not mind a more modular approach to image format, for example
> having mutlipe files instead one monolithic. Not as a mandatory thing just
> something optional, the ability to break an image to pieces , send those
> pieces around so people do not have to close their image to open yours.
> Fuel covers this case nicely but again it could become a bit more "out of
> the box" and more automatic. .
> 
> On Thu, Oct 12, 2017 at 11:22 AM stephan <

> stephan@

> > wrote:
> 
>> On 12-10-17 08:30, Markus Stumptner wrote:
>> > Just to lead this back to the original question.  What you say is
>> > undoubtedly true.  It is not, however, necessarily something that a
>> > beginner will understand or be able to share in.
>>
>> That is a very important point. It also explains a lot of why we are
>> missing certain things that developers coming from other environments
>> take for granted: they simply provide less value to experienced
>> smalltalkers. And that is indeed a barrier to entry.
>>
>> I remember sharply my first looking at squeak, and just not
>> understanding how I could create a new class or method in a browser.
>> Another was that I have been programming in seaside for a year without
>> using senders and implementers. Pair programming for an hour with
>> Philippe Marschall showed me so much invisible/hidden functionality.
>>
>> Other (mainstream) environments don't provide the immediate feedback of
>> navigating, inspecting and manipulating the whole environment, and
>> therefore newcomers have no appropriate expectations (internal model),
>> and are clueless on what they are able to do in Pharo. Combined with the
>> lack of systematic visual clues and the high density of the class
>> library that makes it not easy to learn.
>>
>> Stephan
>>
>>
>>





--
Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html

Re: [Pharo-users] Smalltalk Argument

[horrido]

To quote from  The Wisdom of the Crowd
  :

The crowd is indeed wise. This wisdom shows up in the  latest StackOverflow
survey

 
, as well. Under “Most Loved Languages,” Smalltalk shows up in clear second
place (after Rust and before TypeScript, Swift, Go, Python, Elixir, and C#).
This shows that people who’ve used Smalltalk love the language and are loyal
to it.

It also shows, by inference, that the programming community is not aware of
how good Smalltalk is. Most in the community wallow in ignorance over it.
/If they were to try Smalltalk programming, the language would very likely
become popular./



itli...@schrievkrom.de wrote
> I do not want to spoil the party (perhaps I've done this already) - but
> has anyone done a serious inspection of this number: 67%.
> 
> They have interviewed 64000 persons and 67% of the people should "love"
> Smalltalk? Come on, that seems to be not possible. Perhaps 67% of the
> user already using Smalltalk "love" that.
> 
> By the way - the most loved platform is Linux (69%) ...
> 
> 
> Marten
> 
> Am 20.10.2017 um 09:19 schrieb Paulo R. Dellani:
> 
>> 
>> The second most loved language by 67% of developers surveyed cannot
>> simply
>> be ruled out because of unfounded concerns. (Thanks again for the
> 
> 
> -- 
> Marten Feldtmann





--
Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html

Re: [Pharo-users] Smalltalk Argument

[horrido]

Of all the responses here, I like this one the best because it's right on the
money.

In my long career, I've been dropped into many software projects where I had
to quickly ramp up with a new programming language. The employer didn't hire
me for my language expertise; they hired me for my programming skill and
ability to deliver good quality software on time. The programming tool used
was a mere technicality, and hardly an obstacle.

There is not a software developer alive who can coast through their entire
career without ever needing to pick up another programming language. This is
simply not an issue except for the most myopic of employers.



Pharo Smalltalk Users mailing list wrote
> Hi Paulo,
> 
> I think this is not the right question to ask.
> The problem is not "Where to find Smalltalk developers?", the problem is 
> rather
> "How much effort does it take to help a good experienced OO developer to 
> transition to Smalltalk?"
> 
> OO developers have to steadily gain and learn new technologies and 
> frameworks...
> So why not Smalltalk?
> Those developers that are not willing to learn a new language just 
> because they consider the trade-offs of not finding a job in that field 
> that easily, might not be the best choice for your team anyway...
> 
> That is my experience... I know more developers missing the "Smalltalk 
> experience" than those hating Smalltalk once they left a team...
> 
> Sebastian
> 
> 
> On 2017-10-19 12:04 AM, Paulo R. Dellani wrote:
>> Dear all,
>>
>> after using Smalltalk for several years I developed a passion for the
>> language (how not to?), and Pharo is just so great to develop with.
>> So thank you guys for keeping this wonderful project running.
>>
>> Unfortunately, it is not easy to always point out why Smalltalk
>> should be employed as "main development language" in a team
>> or for a project. In the last discussion of this sort I was confronted
>> with the question "where are we going to get new smalltalk
>> developers if our startup grows or if you go?". Well, I had no
>> good answer to that. What would have you answered?
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> Paulo
>>
>>
>>





--
Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html

[Pharo-users] Multi-core Software Concurrency

[horrido]

With today’s powerful multi-core processors, the demand for efficient
software concurrency is high. We find strong support for such concurrency in
the latest crop of “modern” languages such as Clojure, Elixir, Go, Haskell,
and Scala.

Whenever I present Smalltalk (Pharo) as a great language option, inevitably
someone asks me about multi-core software concurrency. I have no response
for them.

Do I just say that if you need concurrency, Pharo is the wrong choice? After
all, no programming language can be good at everything. You must always
choose the right tool for the job.

Do I say that doing concurrency right is very, very tough, even for the most
experienced of developers? Let's focus on Pharo's strengths, instead. Sounds
like an excuse.

Can we safely ignore the multi-core reality? I welcome your feedback.



--
Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html

Re: [Pharo-users] Multi-core Software Concurrency

[horrido]

Yes, but isn't there an important class of concurrent software where
lightweight threads work on shared state? Isn't that the reason for
"goroutines" in Go, and STM in Clojure, and actors in Scala?



Stephan Eggermont-3 wrote
> On 23-10-17 15:27, horrido wrote:
>> Do I just say that if you need concurrency, Pharo is the wrong choice?
>> After
>> all, no programming language can be good at everything. You must always
>> choose the right tool for the job.
> 
> No, you tell them to use many images and/or vms. We can effectively use 
> state-full micro services. Immutable data is still rather inefficient 
> and in many cases we can avoid needing that.
> 
> Stephan





--
Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html

Re: [Pharo-users] Multi-core Software Concurrency

[horrido]

Thanks. Good answer.


kilon.alios wrote
> It all comes down to what you mean by "efficient". Obviously if you want
> top performance on multiple cores you dont use any of those languages
> including Pharo. Thats prettty much the sole reason why C++ is still a
> relevant language.
> 
> Now if you want ok performance you could use those languages.
> 
> However in real case scenarios if you are worried about multi core support
> then you have performance issues that you have to make sure its not the
> code that has to be blamed before the language.
> 
> For example yesterday I was loading a PNG file via Python to display on
> screen via OpenGL and I was getting very slow performance 2.7 second for
> 1.5 mb PNG. So my assumption as always "super slow python". But I decided
> to give a try to another Python library and expected no more than 1.5 - 2
> seconds load time for the same file. It loaded in 0.03 seconds and took
> some time to collect my jaw from the floor.
> 
> Of course the previous library used a "pure python" approach , the other
> library was the usual C library wrapped for Python.
> 
> So the library and the code plays a massive role, and I mention this
> example because Pharo works in a very similar way. If you do the code in
> pure Pharo, Elixir or whatever you will be hit by the performance whale of
> dynamic languages. Dynamic typing comes with a high cost as does a live
> coding enviroment. Pharo is very lucky in that it has a JIT VM espeically
> optimised for its language, so generally you wont get the slow speeds I
> got. But still C will once more run circles around a Pharo implementation
> ,
> especially if its an optimised library.
> 
> Thus we have the UFFI. Esteban has done an excellent job and works like a
> charm for using C libraries.
> 
> Now if C also is proven slow then multi core wont help you much.
> 
> You need the big guns , which is another name for "GPUs". A powerful GPU
> is
> even hundrends time faster than the most powerful CPU because it has
> thousands of cores. But those cores are designed to compute similar tasks
> hence why we dont throw CPUs away which are more versatile.
> 
> So if you plan to do similar computations through millions of objects,
> multi core wont help you much, you need the big guns a very expensive and
> powerful GPU to do the heavy lifting.
> 
> GPUs used to specialise only on Graphics, but 3d has become so complex
> that
> nowdays they can do all sort of computations and they have dedicate APIs
> for accesing thousands of cores via OpenCL and CUDA.
> 
> Unsuprisingly they run mainly on C/C++.
> 
> The good news is that through the UFFI is possible to access a GPU via
> Pharo, Ronie has done this.
> 
> But to my experience most people dont realise what an extremely complex
> field performance is and how it widely fluctuates from scenario to
> scenario. So there is no "turbo" button to press.
> 
> Now if you ask "but how I do this with pharo". Well technically you dont
> do
> this with Pharo because Pharo is made to run on CPU.
> 
> GPUs run their own executables which means you have to use special
> compilers , good news is that they can do compiling on the fly too so
> Pharo
> can leverage that. Again Ronie's works is relevant here.
> 
> If you want to avoid all the complexity and go for the simplest solution ,
> then avoid the GPU. Because GPUs are kinda insane in terms of complexity.
> 
> The easiest way is to fire up multiple Pharo and have them communicate
> with
> each other via socket or shared memory. The OS when it starts a new
> process
> it usually asigns it a core that is idle to take advantage of your
> multiple
> cores.
> 
> Summary:
> The answer is "Pharo can do this by accessing the GPU which much faster
> than CPU or can access multiple cores through multiple instances running
> at
> the same time".
> 
> So yes you can have top performance Pharo code if run this way, it wont be
> up to C standards but it will be blazzing fast none the less.
> 
> On Mon, Oct 23, 2017 at 4:28 PM horrido <

> horrido.hobbies@

> > wrote:
> 
>> With today’s powerful multi-core processors, the demand for efficient
>> software concurrency is high. We find strong support for such concurrency
>> in
>> the latest crop of “modern” languages such as Clojure, Elixir, Go,
>> Haskell,
>> and Scala.
>>
>> Whenever I present Smalltalk (Pharo) as a great language option,
>> inevitably
>> someone asks me about multi-core software concurrency. I have no response
>> for them.
>>
>> Do I just say that if you need concurrency, Ph

[Pharo-users] UFFI and Fortran

[horrido]

Can UFFI be used to call into a Fortran library?



--
Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html

[Pharo-users] Pharo: Reinventing Smalltalk

[horrido]

FYI, reader comments to my interview with Stef:
https://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/7a30vx/pharo_reinventing_smalltalk/

If you can respond, that would be great.



--
Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html

Re: [Pharo-users] UFFI and Fortran

[horrido]

Sounds like it's possible to call into TensorFlow (Python) from Pharo. That
would give Pharo a tremendous boost for machine learning applications.

Am I right?


kilon.alios wrote
> Maybe you talk about TalkFFI which aumatically wrapped C libraries for
> Pharo and i think Squeak as well but used Nativeboos, i think
> 
> http://forum.world.st/TalkFFI-automatic-FFI-generation-for-Pharo-td4662239.html
> 
> On the subject of Fortran yes you can use UFFI if Fortran code is compiled
> as a DLL (or equivelant non Windoom OSes)
> 
> https://software.intel.com/en-us/node/535305
> 
> Dynamic Library format are not exclusive to C for generation , many
> languages can generate them so even though UFFI is used predominatly for C
> any language that can generate a DLL without any name mangling should be
> accessible via UFFI.
> 
> if DLL generation is not possible, then you can drop down to my solution
> of
> Shared Memory Mapped Files. Which means you make an executable in Frotran
> (or any other language)  that contains the code you want to access and
> creates a shared memory region and you can access that region from Pharo
> via UFFI.
> 
> This is how I built my CPPBridge project. Which one can use as a template
> for generating similar bridge for Fortran or any other language where the
> generation of DLLs is not practical or possible.
> 
> The shared memory region can be used also as a means of communication
> additional to sharing live state, memory mapped files automatically save
> the live state so next time you open the file it behaves as you would
> expect a Pharo image to behave by restoring the live state. A means to
> extend Pharo image to include memory not managed by the VM.
> 
> Because memory mapped files is mechanism of the OS Kernel and is also the
> mechanism used for the loading of dynamic libraries like DLLs there is
> also
> no loss of performance and is the fastest way of communication between
> languages, libraries and applications.
> 
> So yes using Fortran code is possible via UFFI in more than one way.
> 
> But in the end it should be noted here that because IPC mechanisms (common
> way of using libraries from other languages) are based on core OS
> functionality like , memory managment, sockets , pipes, etc its not hard
> to
> use libraries from any language from inside any language.
> 
> So Pharo can use Fortran libraries and Fortran can use Pharo libraries,
> its
> also possible to retain live coding even when executing code written in
> another language through various means. Recently I was succesful in making
> Python into a basic live coding enviroment , meaning code that when
> changed
> in the source file it updates also existing live intances as you expect in
> Pharo. Python also supports memory mapped files so its possible to create
> a
> joined live coding enviroment and live image that containes both Pharo and
> Python bytecode. Of course without touching VM source code.
> 
> Even though live state is not tricky to retain for compiled languages,
> live
> code can be a bit trickier to do but still not impossible or that hard as
> most would assume.
> 
> Sky is the limit.
> 
> Bottom line is that if you have a favorite library in any language you can
> use it from inside Pharo with at worst a few hundrend lines of setup code
> you can create as a library and of coure reuse next time you want to use
> again a library from another language without having to write a line of
> additional code. The technology is available is just a matter of learning
> how to use it.  Especially if its a very large libraries it will be
> thousands times easier than trying to replicate the functionality in
> Pharo.
> 
> 
> 
> On Fri, Oct 27, 2017 at 6:26 PM Sean P. DeNigris <

> sean@

> >
> wrote:
> 
>> Ben Coman wrote
>> > it seems to hint how to do it from Pharo UFFI.
>>
>> Slightly OT: I remember years ago, someone (Dave Mason?) demoed a library
>> which automatically created FFI wrappers for C libs. I never heard
>> anything
>> about it after that, which is sad, because I was amazed and wanted to use
>> it!
>>
>>
>>
>> -
>> Cheers,
>> Sean
>> --
>> Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html
>>
>>





--
Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html

Re: [Pharo-users] UFFI and Fortran

[horrido]

That would be phenomenal! Let me know if and when it's done and I shall
scream it out to all of social media!



tblanchard wrote
> Yes - the reason I've been trying to learn FFI is specifically to get
> TensorFlow integration.
> 
> I want a better ML workbench.
> 
>> On Nov 2, 2017, at 9:08 PM, Ben Coman <

> btc@

> > wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> On Fri, Nov 3, 2017 at 11:10 AM, horrido <

> horrido.hobbies@

>  <mailto:

> horrido.hobbies@

> >> wrote:
>> Sounds like it's possible to call into TensorFlow (Python) from Pharo.
>> That
>> would give Pharo a tremendous boost for machine learning applications.
>> 
>> Am I right?
>> 
>> Tensorflow has a C API for FFI from other languages.
>> * https://www.tensorflow.org/install/install_c
>> <https://www.tensorflow.org/install/install_c>;
>> * https://www.tensorflow.org/extend/language_bindings
>> <https://www.tensorflow.org/extend/language_bindings>;
>> 
>> cheers -ben





--
Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html

[Pharo-users] Typical Pharo Application Footprint

[horrido]

What is a typical Pharo application footprint size? (I'm assuming deployment
starting with a minimal core image.)

How small can a Pharo application be?



--
Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html

[Pharo-users] New Pharo article at The Cohort

[horrido]

Why Pharo Might be the Future of Software Development
  

Spread the word.



--
Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html

Re: [Pharo-users] New Pharo article at The Cohort

[horrido]

I appreciate all the feedback, even the negative comments. Let me address
some of them...

First of all, you need to understand that this article, like nearly all of
my other articles, is about /marketing/. I've never made any bones about
this.

If you know anything about marketing, you know that it involves exaggeration
and hyperbole. It sometimes involves bending the truth. The point of
marketing is to persuade on an emotional level, not a logical one.

This is exactly what companies like Apple and Microsoft do. If you think
Apple ads tell the absolute truth, then you are terribly naive.

So, is Pharo being used to fight Ebola? Not exactly, but who cares? I'm
trying to change people's perception. I'm trying to *move* them. If I have
to exaggerate, I will do so.

Has everybody heard of Smalltalk? Of course not. And it doesn't matter. I'm
taking /literary licence/. As a writer and a marketer, I am allowed to do
this.

Second, the article hasn't been published yet that pleases everybody. I
accept that some people may not like what I've written, and that's perfectly
fine.

What's not perfectly fine is if the majority of readers are turned off by my
article. I do not believe this is the case. I have published literally
hundreds of Smalltalk articles over the past three years, most of them on
Medium, and I've tracked responses and viewership. As far as I can tell,
these articles have been generally well-received. I have something of a fan
base!

Something else that I've been told: marketing to programmers will not work
because they are too smart for that. What a load of bullcrap! Programmers
are human beings, and all human beings are susceptible to marketing. My
Smalltalk campaign over the past three years have proven that it works.

So why should I stop?

Third,...

> You will not convince people to use Pharo by spitting on everything else.

What am I spitting on? I claim that the way everybody has been doing
programming, ie, with file-based languages, has not been ideal for
productivity. That's not insulting. That's just the truth.

Isn't that why we use Pharo (Smalltalk)? For productivity reasons?

> But even more important is that I don't understand why people always talk
> about the future when the only thing they do is telling the past.

The future is always based on the past. There is no future if you ignore the
past (and the present).

Again, the reason for bringing up BYTE magazine is to move people. And it
seems to work.

Telling people about how Smalltalk was once a high flyer in the 1990s and
that IBM chose Smalltalk as the centrepiece of their VisualAge enterprise
initiative to replace COBOL also works.

Giving this information to people will offer some comfort and confidence
that choosing Pharo won't be a mistake.

If my marketing campaign is hurting Smalltalk and Pharo, you'll have to show
me the evidence. If you can, then I will stop. I am only here to serve you.




--
Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html

Re: [Pharo-users] New Pharo article at The Cohort

[horrido]

"There is only one thing in life worse than being talked about, and that is
not being talked about."
Oscar Wilde

Smalltalk was on the verge of being forgotten. Now, people talk about it.
Some may be turned off, I have no doubt. Some are curious; some are
intrigued, enough to actually try Pharo (Smalltalk). How do I know this?

Because they've told me directly! They've told me that they had never heard
of Smalltalk (speaking to Norbert's point), and that they will take a
serious look at it.

Am I doing something wrong? Maybe, but the results would suggest otherwise.
Let's suppose I am doing something wrong. What can I do about it? This is my
style of writing; it reflects who I am, like it or not. Am I supposed to
change who I am?

Frankly, I cannot change my style. It's just not gonna happen. The only
alternative is for me to stop doing what I'm doing.

Well, may I should, anyway. It's been a long campaign and I'm very tired.
Marketing Smalltalk is bloody hard work. Perhaps one of you can take over?



--
Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html

Re: [Pharo-users] New Pharo article at The Cohort

[horrido]

Looks like we may have a taker! You're my Doctor Who regeneration. :-)

I'm in earnest. If someone can take over the marketing duties, I'll be glad
to step down. I just don't want to see Smalltalk slip back into obscurity.

Remember what marketing is all about:attracting eyeballs; raising curiosity;
precipitating discussion; appealling to emotionality.

Marketing is not about pumping out technical articles. We've seen plenty of
those over the years and they've done squat to promote Smalltalk.

Can anyone show me one technical article in the past 20 years that has
garnered more than 10,000 pageviews? I've published eight such articles in
the past 3 years!

I want someone to continue doing this. Publish articles on a regular basis
that draw attention to Pharo and Smalltalk. Inspire interest. Get them
excited. Make Pharo the next iPhone!



aglynn42 wrote
> Here’s a list of the articles @ https://medium.com/@dasein42/latest, in
> case any catch your eye:
> 
> Latest
> Go to the profile of Andrew Glynn
> Andrew Glynn
> Nov 14
> “Dynamics Trumps Semantics”: Why Java is Easy to Learn, but Difficult to
> be Good at.
> 
> Read more…
> 
> 
> Go to the profile of Andrew Glynn
> Andrew Glynn
> Nov 8
> IoT Initiative — “little brother”
> 
> The core notion behind “little brother” is to overcome the inevitable lag
> between the increase in…
> Read more…
> 
> 
> Go to the profile of Andrew Glynn
> Andrew Glynn
> Nov 7
> Software Developer Tooling: Then and Now
> 
> While my criticisms of current tooling for development are often met with
> an attitude of…
> Read more…
> 
> 6
> 
> Go to the profile of Andrew Glynn
> Andrew Glynn
> Nov 5
> 
> The Inverted Ambiguity of the Post-Modern Public, or Not
> Read more…
> 
> 
> Go to the profile of Andrew Glynn
> Andrew Glynn
> Nov 5
> Someone Was Asking About Devops …
> 
> Someone I know was asking me about devops the other day, particularly the
> number and variety of…
> Read more…
> 
> 5
> 
> Go to the profile of Andrew Glynn
> Andrew Glynn
> Nov 5
> Reality and the ‘Simple’ True, or the True-in-Itself, or the Truth
> 
> Read more…
> 
> 
> Go to the profile of Andrew Glynn
> Andrew Glynn
> Nov 5
> What is Intended by the term “Object-Oriented”?
> 
> Read more…
> 
> 1
> 1 response
> Go to the profile of Andrew Glynn
> Andrew Glynn
> Nov 4
> Pharo Smalltalk as a DSL Without a DSL
> 
> If anyone has written a DSL in Eclipse, for example, simply the base
> projects Eclipse…
> Read more…
> 
> 22
> 
> Go to the profile of Andrew Glynn
> Andrew Glynn
> Nov 4
> 
> Tooling: Design of Meta and Underlying Rationale
> Read more…
> 
> 
> Go to the profile of Andrew Glynn
> Andrew Glynn
> Nov 2
> 
> How the Results of Disruption Changes the Discussion Between Aficionados
> of Specific Languages and Environments
> Read more…
> 
> 
> Go to the profile of Andrew Glynn
> Andrew Glynn
> Nov 2
> Disrupted Software the Disrupted Software Industry Uses to Build
> Disruptive Software
> Read more…
> 
> 
> Go to the profile of Andrew Glynn
> Andrew Glynn
> Nov 2
> Software is Virtual; the Virtual is Disruptive; Software Disrupts the
> Development of Software
> Read more…
> 
> 
> Go to the profile of Andrew Glynn
> Andrew Glynn
> Nov 2
> Three Comments from a Conversation on a Mailing List
> Read more…
> 
> 10
> 
> Go to the profile of Andrew Glynn
> Andrew Glynn
> Oct 28
> Reasons … and Reasons , How the Software Industry Turns its Issues into
> Subscriptions
> 
> Read more…
> 
> 12
> 
> Go to the profile of Andrew Glynn
> Andrew Glynn
> Oct 19
> A Commentary On Three Quotes From “Working on the Go Team at Google”
> (https://medium.com/@ljrudberg/working-on-the-go-team-at-google-917b2c8d35ff)
> “First, a little bit about myself: I am 23 years old, less than two years
> out of my undergrad degree at UW…
> Read more…
> 
> 1 response
> Go to the profile of Andrew Glynn
> Andrew Glynn
> Oct 11
> Building-With Versus Building-On:
> Improving Software Development Incrementally
> Three articles and a doctoral thesis that I came across or had pointed out
> to me recently deal with the state of the software industry from different
> angles. However different they are, they do relate, and by putting them…
> 
> 
> From: Dimitris Chloupis
> Sent: Saturday, November 18, 2017 5:10 AM
> To: Any question about pharo is welcome
> Subject: Re: [Pharo-users] New Pharo article at The Cohort
> 
> 
> First of all, you need to understand that this article, like nearly all of
> my other articles, is about /marketing/. I've never made any bones about
> this.
> 
> If you know anything about marketing, you know that it involves
> exaggeration
> and hyperbole. It sometimes involves bending the truth. The point of
> marketing is to persuade on an emotional level, not a logical one.
> 
> This is exactly what companies like Apple and Microsoft do. If you think
> Apple ads tell the absolute truth, then you are terribly naive.
> 
> So, is Pharo being used to fight Ebola? Not exactly, but who cares? I'm
> trying to change people's perc

Re: [Pharo-users] New Pharo article at The Cohort

[horrido]

Yes, I've even cited your excellent "Elegant Pharo Code" article on several
occasions. Okay, perhaps I'm wrong about the number of pageviews.

Nevertheless, prior to my campaign, hardly anyone talked about Smalltalk.
That was my essential point.

By the way, I am gratified that at Medium, I have nearly 1,900 followers. I
realize that's not a huge number, since many other Medium authors have tens
of thousands of followers, but it's far above the average. That means I have
considerable reach.

I can get people talking! And that's not a bad thing. Let's keep the
conversation going...



Sven Van Caekenberghe-2 wrote
>> On 18 Nov 2017, at 18:19, horrido <

> horrido.hobbies@

> > wrote:
>> 
>> Can anyone show me one technical article in the past 20 years that has
>> garnered more than 10,000 pageviews? I've published eight such articles
>> in
>> the past 3 years!
> 
> Views or reads ?
> 
> Popularity is not necessarily an indication of quality, but yes, it is
> possible to reach such numbers by writing technical articles. Here are the
> current stats of 3 of my articles on Medium:
> 
> 
> 
> I do not know what marketing to programmers means, or if it is really
> possible. In my opinion the best we can do is to clearly and accurately
> describe how things are, why we use and like Pharo, and hope people are
> interested enough to explore further on their own. And to build an
> excellent system, of course.
> 
> Sven
> 
> --
> Sven Van Caekenberghe
> Proudly supporting Pharo
> http://pharo.org
> http://association.pharo.org
> http://consortium.pharo.org
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Screen Shot 2017-11-18 at 18.40.55.png (57K)
> <http://forum.world.st/attachment/5029420/0/Screen%20Shot%202017-11-18%20at%2018.40.55.png>;





--
Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html

Re: [Pharo-users] New Pharo article at The Cohort

[horrido]

> Apple certainly does not do what you.

Really??? I don't know what kind of ads Apple runs in Europe, but in North
America, it's very obvious when Apple exaggerates or bends the truth.
Remember those popular "I'm a PC, I'm a Mac" ads from a few years ago? They
had all kinds of exaggerations and half-truths about the benefits of Mac vs
the drawbacks of PC. For example, the Mac OS has never had significant
upgrade problems the way Vista had? Who the hell believes this?

The Mac has many default apps included that obviate the need to buy
additional software? Sorry, that's bullcrap. I do video editing, and I find
the included video editor on the Mac to be too limited and inflexible, so I
have to look for third-party software.

The Mac is better at creative stuff than PC? That, too, is bullcrap.

The Mac is immune to viruses and spyware? No need to comment on this lie.

In my articles, I have never made an outright lie. I've made exaggerations
but that's not against the law. Everything I state always has a grain of
truth. And remember, I am still entitled to literary licence. What does
European law have to say about literary licence?



--
Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html

Re: [Pharo-users] New Pharo article at The Cohort

[horrido]

Fortunately, I'm not selling a product, good or service. I'm selling an idea.
The idea that you should use Pharo for software development. This isn't
about commerce or trade, and thus there can be no basis for litigation.

I'm rather amused that everyone has missed the fundamental point, which I
made long ago at the start of my campaign:

*I'm adopting marketing techniques or practices to promote Smalltalk.*

That's not to say that I'm marketing a good or service, so whatever laws
there are, they don't apply. I'm just borrowing a method to *raise public
awareness*.



--
Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html

Re: [Pharo-users] New Pharo article at The Cohort

[horrido]

Well, I don't think we have to worry about Pharo becoming too big. 

I never expected Smalltalk to ever become big (again). I just want to see it
lifted out of obscurity. If people talk about Pharo in the same breath as
Clojure, Elixir, Haskell, and Rust, that would be great.



Offray Vladimir Luna Cárdenas-2 wrote
> Agreed. This obsession with popularity in North America is kind of sad
> when is looked from elsewhere and is really pervasive: from teenagers
> comedies to technologies and business. Any community needs "proper size"
> to keep momentum and agility. Too big, it become bureaucratic or
> stagnant. Too little, it become fragile and non supportive.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Offray
> 
> 
> On 20/11/17 11:20, Andrew Glynn wrote:
>>
>> The amount of FUD spread by M$ and IBM, just two very noticeable
>> examples out of numerous others, is possible because very few of those
>> laws are applicable unless the statement is part of a paid campaign by
>> the originating company.  If I exaggerate how well my MB 400E was made
>> on a blog post, neither I nor MB are likely to run into any legal
>> issues.  If MB does so in an advertisement, it becomes a different
>> matter.
>>
>>  
>>
>> That said, I don’t think merit is really in question.  There are two
>> bigger ones: 
>>
>>  
>>
>>  1. To whose advantage is inefficient development and the tooling that
>> promotes it?
>>
>>  
>>
>>  2. How would people who find it too /difficult/ to maintain state in
>> a single threaded language acclimatize themselves to Pharo
>> Smalltalk (or to any actual programming language, for that matter) ?
>>
>>  
>>
>> The first question doesn’t have one answer, since it’s to the
>> advantage of a number of interested parties, from large organizations
>> that can afford inefficiency more than smaller competitors (and
>> simultaneously can afford the not inconsequential investment in
>> writing a proprietary Smalltalk or something similar for things that
>> “must work”), to click-bait online ‘forums’ such as “Slack Overload”. 
>>
>>  
>>
>> The second, well, I suppose how you would answer it depends on your
>> experience working with said people.  My own hasn’t been particularly
>> positive.
>>
>>  
>>
>> Not that I’m particularly enamoured with the idea of Pharo becoming
>> mainstream.  It would then be subject to the same disruption as
>> current mainstream environments.  The degradation of Java environments
>> over the past 20 years is a good example.  It was never great, but the
>> combination of syntactic parmesan to hide the bad spaghetti and the
>> need to support every passing fad has made it nearly unusable. I’ve
>> seen a number of companies specifying Java 7 or even Java 6 in their
>> tech stacks “because Java 8 is too unreliable”.
>>
>>  
>>
>> Until mainstream “software engineers” start /acting/ like engineers,
>> i.e. people who make things /work/, rather than popularity contestants
>> or fashion victims, that won’t change.
>>
>>  
>>
>> Andrew Glynn
>>
>>  
>>
>> *From: *Richard A. O'Keefe  ok@.ac

> >
>> *Sent: *Sunday, November 19, 2017 6:19 PM
>> *To: *

> Pharo-users@.pharo

>   Pharo-users@.pharo

> >
>> *Subject: *Re: [Pharo-users] New Pharo article at The Cohort
>>
>>  
>>
>> I'm obviously missing a lot of the context here, but in  my
>>
>> country (New Zealand) there is something called the
>>
>> Fair Trading Act.
>>
>>  
>>
>> My understanding from reading the Commerce Commission web
>>
>> site is that
>>
>>   - false or misleading representations about goods or
>>
>>     services or the availability of goods are against the
>>
>>     law
>>
>>   - "The penalties for breaching the Act can be severe"
>>
>>     (Grant Harris).
>>
>>   - obviously wild exaggerations made to be funny are sort
>>
>>     of OK, but if anyone falls for them you could find this
>>
>>     tested in court
>>
>>   - "Any claims made to bolster the image of a business or
>>
>>     its products or services must be accurate."
>>
>>   - "The Act applies even when there was no intention to
>>
>>     breach the Act".  (Grant Harris again.)
>>
>>  
>>
>> http://www.comcom.govt.nz/fair-trading/fair-trading-act-fact-sheets/claiming-you-re-something-you-re-not/
>>
>>  
>>
>> The Fair Trading Act was passed as part of a program of market
>>
>> liberalisation and in order to foster competition and market
>>
>> efficiency, and the majority of the cases have been trader-to-
>>
>> trader.  Why mention this?  Because it's not just places where
>>
>> consumer protection is high-ranked that have such laws; it's
>>
>> also places that are gung-ho about free markets and competition
>>
>> and want to protect businesses.
>>
>>  
>>
>> Law in the USA varies from state to state.  For California, see
>>
>> https://www.truthinadvertising.org/california/
>>
>> (which has a navbar on the right for other states).
>>
>>  
>>
>> Me, I think Pharo is good enough to "sell" on its merits
>>
>> without any exaggerations.  (If you could combine

Re: [Pharo-users] Behold Pharo: The Modern Smalltalk

[horrido]

Speaking of which, one of my readers said he tried out Pharo recently and
found the documentation wanting. He was expecting a Getting Started guide at
the pharo.org website and couldn't find one. So he had to blunder around a
bit.

I told him he could've looked at "Chapter 2: A quick tour of Pharo" in the
*Pharo by Example 5* book, but he's right. There ought to be something
obvious at the pharo.org website that helps a newbie get Pharo up and
running, understand how to basically use the Pharo IDE, and write the
standard "Hello World" program.

I checked out squeak.org and found the same documentation issue! Why is
this???


Offray Vladimir Luna Cárdenas-2 wrote
> Documentation is going well. In fact the stuff that kept me away of
> Squeak, despite of its potential was the lack of documentation. "The
> artifact is the curriculum" was to powerful but too heavy. You need a
> way to understand how to deconstruct and navigate the artifact that is
> usually anchored with the culture you have (books and reading) instead
> of only launching inspectors os browsing the code. Grafoscopio is my
> attempt to fill that gap between the world of objects/simulations and
> the world of scripts/documents.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Offray





--
Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html

[Pharo-users] Where is Numerical Methods with Pharo?

[horrido]

What happened to the "Numerical Methods with Pharo" book? It suddenly
vanished from pharo.org.



--
Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html

Re: [Pharo-users] Behold Pharo: The Modern Smalltalk

[horrido]

Understood. I'm working on a Pharo Quick Start guide. If it passes muster
with you guys, you may want to link to it, or incorporate its contents into
the pharo.org website.

However, I've stumbled on an odd obstacle: downloading and running the
Default GNU/Linux zip file. According to the Linux installation page, and I
quote:

Version 6.1 for several common GNU/Linux configurations. The zip files
contain everything necessary. Just download and run the executable. For more
download options, see the sections below.

I am unable to "run the executable" without further explanation. I'm
guessing that it's missing the Pharo VM, which apparently isn't included in
the download.

A newbie looking at this installation page and trying to get started with
Pharo under Linux would be totally confused and frustrated. Hell, *I'm
totally confused and frustrated!*



Stephane Ducasse-3 wrote
> Hi
> 
> We have a full mooc with 90 videos, we have books. And we are super busy.
> You see we cannot do everything.
> 
> 
> Stef
> 
> On Mon, Dec 4, 2017 at 5:15 AM, horrido <

> horrido.hobbies@

> > wrote:
>> Speaking of which, one of my readers said he tried out Pharo recently and
>> found the documentation wanting. He was expecting a Getting Started guide
>> at
>> the pharo.org website and couldn't find one. So he had to blunder around
>> a
>> bit.
>>
>> I told him he could've looked at "Chapter 2: A quick tour of Pharo" in
>> the
>> *Pharo by Example 5* book, but he's right. There ought to be something
>> obvious at the pharo.org website that helps a newbie get Pharo up and
>> running, understand how to basically use the Pharo IDE, and write the
>> standard "Hello World" program.
>>
>> I checked out squeak.org and found the same documentation issue! Why is
>> this???
>>
>>
>> Offray Vladimir Luna Cárdenas-2 wrote
>>> Documentation is going well. In fact the stuff that kept me away of
>>> Squeak, despite of its potential was the lack of documentation. "The
>>> artifact is the curriculum" was to powerful but too heavy. You need a
>>> way to understand how to deconstruct and navigate the artifact that is
>>> usually anchored with the culture you have (books and reading) instead
>>> of only launching inspectors os browsing the code. Grafoscopio is my
>>> attempt to fill that gap between the world of objects/simulations and
>>> the world of scripts/documents.
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>>
>>> Offray
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html
>>





--
Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html

Re: [Pharo-users] Behold Pharo: The Modern Smalltalk

[horrido]

Then clearly there is something seriously wrong with the Default GNU/Linux
download. It does not contain a file called 'pharo-ui'.

Moreover, since the Pharo6.1.image file is located in the 'shared' folder,
you'd have to CD to 'shared' to execute your command. No mention of this
anywhere! How is a newbie to know???

Also, there is absolutely no indication that: (a) you need to download a VM;
and (b) where you can obtain this VM from. All in all, this Linux support is
quite messed up. It would be safer to remove it completely from pharo.org,
rather than confusing the hell out of a visitor to pharo.org.



Stephane Ducasse-3 wrote
> On Tue, Dec 5, 2017 at 5:49 AM, horrido <

> horrido.hobbies@

> > wrote:
>> Understood. I'm working on a Pharo Quick Start guide. If it passes muster
>> with you guys, you may want to link to it, or incorporate its contents
>> into
>> the pharo.org website.
> 
> Sure let us know.
> 
> 
>> However, I've stumbled on an odd obstacle: downloading and running the
>> Default GNU/Linux zip file. According to the Linux installation page, and
>> I
>> quote:
>>
>> Version 6.1 for several common GNU/Linux configurations. The zip files
>> contain everything necessary. Just download and run the executable. For
>> more
>> download options, see the sections below.
> 
> ./pharo-ui Pharo61.image &
>>
>> I am unable to "run the executable" without further explanation. I'm
>> guessing that it's missing the Pharo VM, which apparently isn't included
>> in
>> the download.
> 
> Why would it be?
> 
> 
>>
>> A newbie looking at this installation page and trying to get started with
>> Pharo under Linux would be totally confused and frustrated. Hell, *I'm
>> totally confused and frustrated!*
> 
> As you see this can be fixed without losing more time on that.
> 
> 
>>
>>
>>
>> Stephane Ducasse-3 wrote
>>> Hi
>>>
>>> We have a full mooc with 90 videos, we have books. And we are super
>>> busy.
>>> You see we cannot do everything.
>>>
>>>
>>> Stef
>>>
>>> On Mon, Dec 4, 2017 at 5:15 AM, horrido <
>>
>>> horrido.hobbies@
>>
>>> > wrote:
>>>> Speaking of which, one of my readers said he tried out Pharo recently
>>>> and
>>>> found the documentation wanting. He was expecting a Getting Started
>>>> guide
>>>> at
>>>> the pharo.org website and couldn't find one. So he had to blunder
>>>> around
>>>> a
>>>> bit.
>>>>
>>>> I told him he could've looked at "Chapter 2: A quick tour of Pharo" in
>>>> the
>>>> *Pharo by Example 5* book, but he's right. There ought to be something
>>>> obvious at the pharo.org website that helps a newbie get Pharo up and
>>>> running, understand how to basically use the Pharo IDE, and write the
>>>> standard "Hello World" program.
>>>>
>>>> I checked out squeak.org and found the same documentation issue! Why is
>>>> this???
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Offray Vladimir Luna Cárdenas-2 wrote
>>>>> Documentation is going well. In fact the stuff that kept me away of
>>>>> Squeak, despite of its potential was the lack of documentation. "The
>>>>> artifact is the curriculum" was to powerful but too heavy. You need a
>>>>> way to understand how to deconstruct and navigate the artifact that is
>>>>> usually anchored with the culture you have (books and reading) instead
>>>>> of only launching inspectors os browsing the code. Grafoscopio is my
>>>>> attempt to fill that gap between the world of objects/simulations and
>>>>> the world of scripts/documents.
>>>>>
>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>
>>>>> Offray
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html
>>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html
>>





--
Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html

Re: [Pharo-users] Behold Pharo: The Modern Smalltalk

[horrido]

I've encountered another issue, this time with the macOS download...

After I download the zip file, I unzip the file and move the Pharo
application to the Applications folder. Then I have to right-click on the
Pharo application and select open (double-clicking prevents me from opening
the file at all). This last step fails (Pharo crashes), but if I repeat it,
it works.

Thereafter, I may double-click to open the file anytime.

I can't add these instructions to my Pharo Quick Start guide without
sounding like an ass. I shall have to wait until all download issues are
resolved before I can complete the guide.




--
Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html

Re: [Pharo-users] Behold Pharo: The Modern Smalltalk

[horrido]

I've completed the first draft of my  Pharo Quick Start guide
  . I decided
to forge ahead anyway.

Feedback welcome.

Note that I chose wget instead of curl because many Linux distros do not
have curl installed.

I've tested the guide for various Linux distros including Mint 18.3
(Ubuntu-based), Debian 9.2.1, Manjaro 17.0.6 (Arch-based), Solus 3, and
Fedora 27. So it should be good for all the popular distros (Top 10).



--
Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html

Re: [Pharo-users] Behold Pharo: The Modern Smalltalk

[horrido]

I've revised the draft slightly for the comments given here:
https://medium.com/@richardeng/pharo-quick-start-5bab70944ce2

Yes, it's a definite improvement. Thanks.



Richard Sargent wrote
> Excellent work, Richard!
> 
> May I offer the small criticism against using #initialize for the method
> name? I think a name like #sayIt (for example) and invocation like "Hello
> new sayIt" would make it explicit.
> 
> This will be a great help for people who drop by out of curiosity.
> 
> 
> On Thu, Dec 7, 2017 at 11:38 AM, horrido <

> horrido.hobbies@

> > wrote:
> 
>> I've completed the first draft of my  Pharo Quick Start guide
>> <https://medium.com/@richardeng/pharo-quick-start-5bab70944ce2>;  .
>> I
>> decided
>> to forge ahead anyway.
>>
>> Feedback welcome.
>>
>> Note that I chose wget instead of curl because many Linux distros do not
>> have curl installed.
>>
>> I've tested the guide for various Linux distros including Mint 18.3
>> (Ubuntu-based), Debian 9.2.1, Manjaro 17.0.6 (Arch-based), Solus 3, and
>> Fedora 27. So it should be good for all the popular distros (Top 10).
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html
>>
>>





--
Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html

Re: [Pharo-users] Behold Pharo: The Modern Smalltalk

[horrido]

Done. Class #Hello is now #Greeter in package "HelloDemo".

I presume we're good to go, then?



Offray Vladimir Luna Cárdenas-2 wrote
> May be the class name could be changed a little bit to allow more
> flexibility using the Pharo Quick Start as a base. Something like
> "Greeter" and "Greeter new say: 'Hello world!'" or "Greeter new sayIt"
> could be implemented from there. Nice to see more and more documentation
> around Pharo, including this one.
> 
> That being said, I have always felt that hello world is kind of a
> strange introduction to programming:
> 
> http://mutabit.com/offray/blog/en/entry/dumb-hello-world
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Offray
> 
> 
> On 07/12/17 15:31, horrido wrote:
>> I've revised the draft slightly for the comments given here:
>> https://medium.com/@richardeng/pharo-quick-start-5bab70944ce2
>>
>> Yes, it's a definite improvement. Thanks.
>>
>>
>>
>> Richard Sargent wrote
>>> Excellent work, Richard!
>>>
>>> May I offer the small criticism against using #initialize for the method
>>> name? I think a name like #sayIt (for example) and invocation like
>>> "Hello
>>> new sayIt" would make it explicit.
>>>
>>> This will be a great help for people who drop by out of curiosity.
>>>
>>>
>>> On Thu, Dec 7, 2017 at 11:38 AM, horrido <
>>> horrido.hobbies@
>>> > wrote:
>>>
>>>> I've completed the first draft of my  Pharo Quick Start guide
>>>> <https://medium.com/@richardeng/pharo-quick-start-5bab70944ce2>; 
>>>> .
>>>> I
>>>> decided
>>>> to forge ahead anyway.
>>>>
>>>> Feedback welcome.
>>>>
>>>> Note that I chose wget instead of curl because many Linux distros do
>>>> not
>>>> have curl installed.
>>>>
>>>> I've tested the guide for various Linux distros including Mint 18.3
>>>> (Ubuntu-based), Debian 9.2.1, Manjaro 17.0.6 (Arch-based), Solus 3, and
>>>> Fedora 27. So it should be good for all the popular distros (Top 10).
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html
>>>>
>>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html
>>
>>





--
Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html

Re: [Pharo-users] Behold Pharo: The Modern Smalltalk

[horrido]

I'm not sure what you mean by *PrintIt:*. If you mean type 'Hello World' in
the Playground and just *Print it*, that's not really a "program."



Sean P. DeNigris wrote
> hernanmd wrote
>> To me the Hello World in Smalltalk was always just writing: 'Hello world'
> 
> +1. While putting it in a class shows a few more of the system's features,
> it also makes it seem more complex than other languages, when that's not
> really true. Why not just PrintIt: 'Hello world'? If it seems important to
> show classes, maybe start with PrintIt: 'Hello world' and step-by-step
> build
> through `Transcript show: 'Hello world'` to the class-based solution.
> 
> 
> 
> -
> Cheers,
> Sean
> --
> Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html





--
Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html

Re: [Pharo-users] Behold Pharo: The Modern Smalltalk

[horrido]

Thanks to all your feedback, the Pharo Quick Start guide gets better and
better. Now, the reader will *really* see how easy Pharo is by the end of
the second section. The rest of the guide deals with the System Browser.

I'm very happy about this because I keep hearing crapola from JavaScript
developers saying how low the entry barrier for JavaScript is (everybody has
a web browser; all you need is a text editor and you can see immediate
results). I wanted to drive home the point that the entry barrier for Pharo
is exceptionally low, too.

And it's just as low as for Elixir, Julia, Nim, Racket, and other languages
I've recently tried.



Offray Vladimir Luna Cárdenas-2 wrote
> Maybe the core of the suggestion is start with the Playground and then
> go to the code browser, that's my workflow coming from other languages
> like Python and Scheme, and having the playground to emulate REPL before
> going to code browser has been really refreshing and also "going from
> scripting to object" is a well received approach in our Data Weeks.
> 
> So the Pharo Quick Start, after providing the installation instrucctions
> could be something like:
> 
> """
> The classical "Hello World!" program can be done in one line in Pharo,
> as in most dynamic languages by opening the Playground ("Cmd + Shif + o"
> shortcut on Mac o "Ctrl + Shift + o" on Windows) and writing "Transcript
> show: 'Hello World!" (see figure below), but we are going to learn also
> how to put this simple script into the Code Browser, a place where much
> of the Pharo power resides.
> 
> 
> ^ Up: The "Hello World!" example as a one-liner script ran in the
> Playground.
> 
> """
> and then I would add the succinct explanation you are doing about how to
> create the Greeter.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Offray
> 
> On 08/12/17 09:41, horrido wrote:
>> I'm not sure what you mean by *PrintIt:*. If you mean type 'Hello World'
>> in
>> the Playground and just *Print it*, that's not really a "program."
>>
>>
>>
>> Sean P. DeNigris wrote
>>> hernanmd wrote
>>>> To me the Hello World in Smalltalk was always just writing: 'Hello
>>>> world'
>>> +1. While putting it in a class shows a few more of the system's
>>> features,
>>> it also makes it seem more complex than other languages, when that's not
>>> really true. Why not just PrintIt: 'Hello world'? If it seems important
>>> to
>>> show classes, maybe start with PrintIt: 'Hello world' and step-by-step
>>> build
>>> through `Transcript show: 'Hello world'` to the class-based solution.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -
>>> Cheers,
>>> Sean
>>> --
>>> Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html
>>
>>
> 
> 
> 
> amgfcildhiemjbph.png (21K)
> <http://forum.world.st/attachment/5060126/0/amgfcildhiemjbph.png>;





--
Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html

Re: [Pharo-users] Behold Pharo: The Modern Smalltalk

[horrido]

Pharo: The Next Ten Minutes
<https://medium.com/@richardeng/pharo-the-next-ten-minutes-a17899dc9a58>  .

Feedback welcome.

I will be leaving for vacation on Sunday for two weeks. Feedback should be
given to me asap. Thanks.



Stephane Ducasse-3 wrote
> Hi Richard
> 
> Thanks this is nice. I like Greeter :)
> The suggestion of Ben are fun for the next one.
> I will add a link to your article.
> 
> Stef
> 
> On Thu, Dec 7, 2017 at 11:35 PM, horrido <

> horrido.hobbies@

> > wrote:
>> Done. Class #Hello is now #Greeter in package "HelloDemo".
>>
>> I presume we're good to go, then?
>>
>>
>>
>> Offray Vladimir Luna Cárdenas-2 wrote
>>> May be the class name could be changed a little bit to allow more
>>> flexibility using the Pharo Quick Start as a base. Something like
>>> "Greeter" and "Greeter new say: 'Hello world!'" or "Greeter new sayIt"
>>> could be implemented from there. Nice to see more and more documentation
>>> around Pharo, including this one.
>>>
>>> That being said, I have always felt that hello world is kind of a
>>> strange introduction to programming:
>>>
>>> http://mutabit.com/offray/blog/en/entry/dumb-hello-world
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>>
>>> Offray
>>>
>>>
>>> On 07/12/17 15:31, horrido wrote:
>>>> I've revised the draft slightly for the comments given here:
>>>> https://medium.com/@richardeng/pharo-quick-start-5bab70944ce2
>>>>
>>>> Yes, it's a definite improvement. Thanks.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Richard Sargent wrote
>>>>> Excellent work, Richard!
>>>>>
>>>>> May I offer the small criticism against using #initialize for the
>>>>> method
>>>>> name? I think a name like #sayIt (for example) and invocation like
>>>>> "Hello
>>>>> new sayIt" would make it explicit.
>>>>>
>>>>> This will be a great help for people who drop by out of curiosity.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Thu, Dec 7, 2017 at 11:38 AM, horrido <
>>>>> horrido.hobbies@
>>>>> > wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> I've completed the first draft of my  Pharo Quick Start guide
>>>>>> <https://medium.com/@richardeng/pharo-quick-start-5bab70944ce2>;
>>>>>> .
>>>>>> I
>>>>>> decided
>>>>>> to forge ahead anyway.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Feedback welcome.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Note that I chose wget instead of curl because many Linux distros do
>>>>>> not
>>>>>> have curl installed.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I've tested the guide for various Linux distros including Mint 18.3
>>>>>> (Ubuntu-based), Debian 9.2.1, Manjaro 17.0.6 (Arch-based), Solus 3,
>>>>>> and
>>>>>> Fedora 27. So it should be good for all the popular distros (Top 10).
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html
>>>>
>>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html
>>





--
Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html

[Pharo-users] Blitzkrieg!

[horrido]

http://horridohobbies.tumblr.com/   

*Today is the one-month anniversary of the SRP.* We have made good progress,
but there is still much work ahead of us.

Shortly, I will be seeking corporate sponsorship. As well, I'm trying to
coordinate activities with the Smalltalk Foundation.

Later this summer, I will be pushing my "Small Minds Initiative," a
sub-campaign of the SRP to get Smalltalk into the classroom. I will begin
with the Toronto District School Board.

Are we pumped yet?!

Generalissimo



--
View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/Blitzkrieg-tp4800165.html
Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

[Pharo-users] InfoWorld on Redline Smalltalk

[horrido]

http://www.infoworld.com/article/2867543/java/redline-smalltalk-bridging-smalltalk-jvm-worlds.html

  

Amber and Redline are vital *strategic* projects for Smalltalk. One is for
the browser and one is for the JVM.

Amber and Redline are *nascent* projects. Hopefully, they will be ready to
greet newcomers in the latter half of this year. People are working hard, so
please be patient.

The Redline project needs contributors. I urge people to step up. It would
be tragic if this project failed. /We need a Smalltalk on the JVM!/

2015 will the Year of Smalltalk.

Generalissimo



--
View this message in context: 
http://forum.world.st/InfoWorld-on-Redline-Smalltalk-tp4800172.html
Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

Re: [Pharo-users] InfoWorld on Redline Smalltalk

[horrido]

I had never heard of RTalk or Gravel. In all my Googling, I've never come
across these two. They're obviously not on the minds of very many people.
Are they even active projects?

At least Redline is relatively prominent. At least James Ladd is actively
working on it. His efforts should be commended and *supported*.

Let's rally around the Redline project. This should be doable.

Generalissimo


Stephan Eggermont wrote
> continued from pharo-dev, please keep discussion here.
> 
> The smalltalk on jvm situation is exactly like it shouldn't be.
> There are three implementations, not working together:
> - RTalk
> - Gravel
> - Redline
> 
> The first two are driven by existing commercial smalltalk users
> coming from a platform that they feel is not sufficiently 
> developing (different ones).  This amount of fragmentation is ridiculous.
> Of course they have different priorities and needs, but it should be 
> possible to share the work that all three feel they have to do.
> The result is that at least two of them move forward very slowly.
> 
> Stephan





--
View this message in context: 
http://forum.world.st/InfoWorld-on-Redline-Smalltalk-tp4799678p4800173.html
Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

Re: [Pharo-users] [Pharo-dev] InfoWorld on Redline Smalltalk

[horrido]

I agree that Amber is important, given that client-side web development is
the /fad du jour/. But having a Smalltalk on the JVM is also important if we
want to penetrate the enterprise. JVM is the closest thing we have to a
"standard" enterprise platform.

Languages such as Scala and Groovy have had some measure of success on the
JVM. I'd be happy if Smalltalk could achieve even this level of popularity!

Generalissimo


Esteban A. Maringolo wrote
> El ene 15, 2015 8:55 AM, "Sebastian Sastre" <

> sebastian@

> >
> escribió:
>>
>>
>>> On Jan 14, 2015, at 9:44 PM, Esteban A. Maringolo <

> emaringolo@

> >
> wrote:
>>>
>>> Shaking the hive can certainly have a positive outcome, but you can also
> get you bitten. :)
>>
>>
>> And what’s the news on that?
>>
>> The world is full of people paralysed by fear.
>>
>> Scared people is not worth following (they are not going to invent any
> interesting future).
>>
>> The ones who dear to do different are way more interesting.
>>
> 
> I totally agree with you. But the mentioned project was a viable option
> two
> years ago, when it was trying to get developer traction and the "runs on
> JVM" was a hyped feature (not to mention the bad experience almost
> everyone
> had with such things).
> 
> Amber is, IMO, way more valuable and with a greater feature than Redline.
> And I never used any of them.
> 
> I wouldn't do a PR campaign mentioning VW's Pollock UI, Pharo's Spec or
> any
> other abandoned project whatsoever.
> 
> A different thing is a project of which you can expect to move at a slow
> pace, but uninterruptedly.
> 
> Regards,





--
View this message in context: 
http://forum.world.st/Re-Pharo-dev-InfoWorld-on-Redline-Smalltalk-tp4799686p4800174.html
Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

Re: [Pharo-users] InfoWorld on Redline Smalltalk

[horrido]

kilon.alios wrote
> Porting code to JVM and Javascript has 3 issues
> 
> a) you are no longer able to use the libraries of your popular
> implementation (see Pharo) unless you wrap those libraries with something
> like JNA (a ffi for JAVA)
> b) most people would not use JVM unless if they have to and in most cases
> it will be more likely their code will be written in JAVA so they use JAVA
> c) JVM and Javascript languages are notorious for being slow , so once
> again fall back to JAVA and Javascript

Indeed, many organizations have to use JVM, and yes, they probably fall back
on Java because that's the "safe" choice. It doesn't mean that we can't
persuade them to try Smalltalk. Redline makes it easier to interoperate with
the existing Java infrastructure.

If we can't convince these organizations that they'll be much more
productive using Smalltalk over Java, and save tons of money /in the long
run/, then how can we ever advance our agenda to the rest of the world??

BTW, JVM and JS aren't /that/ slow any more. They're so well-optimized that,
for most use cases, performance is no longer an issue. I know because my
brother Robert used to work at IBM (he just quit yesterday!). 

> So those language ported to JVM act mainly as scripting languages, you got
> a JAVA app which is probably quite big and you port small parts of it to
> that other language to make your code more managable and less verbose.

So Scala, Groovy, and Clojure are used mainly as scripting languages? That's
not what I hear.

> So overall I doubt that Smalltalk will ever be a big hit on JVM or
> Javascript. The problem with smalltalk that other languages dont have is
> that it comes with an IDE , which is both a blessing and a curse. The last
> time I checked Pharo was 200k lines of codes, that is huge for a dynamic
> language. If we take out the IDE we lose a big advantage as developers,
> add
> to that the fact that other IDEs have very limited supported for Smalltalk
> and you end up as a not so cool situation especially if you are used to
> code in Pharo. This is something I have against with Amber.

I don't expect Smalltalk to become a big hit on the JVM or JS, either. But
if it proves to be as popular as Scala, I'd be very satisfied!

Making Smalltalk available to other domains is not simply a matter of
checking off boxes. Strategically, it shows Smalltalk's versatility and that
it's not just a one-trick pony. Limiting ourselves to just desktop (or
Seaside) applications is rather short-sighted.

> So the ideal scenario is for someone to do what Rtalk promised but that
> would requires someone or some coder with very deep knowledge of the JVM,
> So dont hold your breath.

I won't, which is precisely why I support James Ladd's efforts.

> My choice is sticking with Pharo, sure Javascript and Java are nice sirens
> singing an irresistible song but I am not willing to give up the comforts
> of Pharo just so I have access to Java and Javascript libraries. Tempting
> but not that tempting.  Pharo is an excellent choice if you are a lone
> coder and you want to be very productive which if you think of it is
> completely diffirent to what the JVM aims for which is big coder groups
> and
> big companies.

I certainly don't want to limit Smalltalk to just lone developers and small
software houses. That's the very definition of "niche."

> On the other hand if there is a real need for Smalltalk on JVM then sooner
> or later someone will step up and start something. Right now from what I
> see Clojure and Scala are the only two langauge that get some attention ,
> again nowhere near as much as other popular languages but they still
> somewhat popular. The thing with Clojure is that is not just lisp on JVM ,
> there was already lisp for JVM called ABCL and never got popular, Clojure
> became popular not because its lisp but because it targeted concurrency
> and
> made it easier . If Smalltalk is to become ever as popular it has to bring
> something similar to the table and I think concurency would not be a bad
> idea either especially for those that are not big fans of lisp syntax and
> prefer something like Smalltalk.

As I intimated previously in my list of essay topics for the Smalltalk
community, I believe it's important for us to address concurrency in
Smalltalk. Yes, it would not only be a good idea, it would be /essential/.

I think there's a real need for Smalltalk on JVM, and Mr. Ladd has indeed
stepped up. The real question is, who among you will help him?

Generalissimo



--
View this message in context: 
http://forum.world.st/InfoWorld-on-Redline-Smalltalk-tp4799678p4800179.html
Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

Re: [Pharo-users] InfoWorld on Redline Smalltalk

[horrido]

Thanks for this link! I always thought there was something not right about
Angular, and this article (and its links) clearly lay out the issue.

Obviously, I think Amber is a better solution. 

The one big takeaway from these anti-Angular articles, I think, is this...

/IT management often make stupid choices based on fad, fashion, and
laziness./ They can't be bothered to do the actual research and
investigation to see which technology best fits their goals and objectives.
Presumably, one of their chief objectives is to improve productivity and
save on (labour) costs. How can you meet this objective without at least
trying one of the premier productivity technologies on the market, namely,
Smalltalk? How can you not have heard the oft-repeated claims about
Smalltalk's superlative productivity over the years? They've only been made
year after year since the 1980s.

All that is required is to run a pilot Smalltalk program. This will
definitively answer the question: How much more productive can you be in
developing software?

Generalissimo


sebast...@flowingconcept.com wrote
>> On Jan 17, 2015, at 3:18 PM, kilon alios <

> kilon.alios@

> > wrote:
>> 
>> So overall I doubt that Smalltalk will ever be a big hit on JVM or
>> Javascript. 
> 
> Everybody is a looser if you frame it in that perspective.
> 
> That game is not interesting, nor strategy wise.
> 
> An interesting alternative is to create the opportunity for people to take
> their bite on the Java market and if they can do it, as small as it might
> be that’s all that really counts.
> 
> James is already one of those someone will make it when the demand is
> felt.
> 
> If Redline Smalltalk saves significant costs to a company that has
> invested heavy in something JVM-ish then you will have their attention.
> 
> Productivity is one of the strongest opportunities for Smalltalk unless
> our tools UI/UX sucks so bad it get deteriorated or the world catches up.
> 
> And we have control over the UI/UX we provide.
> 
> Have you ever thought that AngularJS is essentially a Google strategy to
> bite Java’s market
> ;?





--
View this message in context: 
http://forum.world.st/InfoWorld-on-Redline-Smalltalk-tp4799678p4800193.html
Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

Re: [Pharo-users] Blitzkrieg!

[horrido]

This is a fine line to tread. I have several problems with self-censorship:

First of all, "Generalissimo" is just a handle. My previous handle,
"horrido", was surely objectionable as well, since it's a play on the battle
cry associated with the WWII German Luftwaffe ( Horrido: Fighter Aces of the
Luftwaffe
<http://www.amazon.ca/Horrido-Luftwaffe-Raymond-F-Toliver/dp/0553126636>  ).

I admit to being a WWII buff. I have been for many years. Should I apologize
for this?

Second, I am firmly and philosophically opposed to Political Correctness. I
find it intellectually offensive to my very core. I guess that would make me
a lousy politician.

One thing that no one can accuse me of is being intellectually dishonest.

Third, my self-censorship is hardly different from what Muslim terrorists
were trying to achieve in Paris last week. Free expression should be
protected (as long as it is not foul or vulgar). Any language you use will
offend /someone somewhere/ at /some time/ in the world. I try to be sensible
and I try to be artistically honest. This is reflected in my writings. There
will always be people who find my style distasteful. There isn't much I can
do about that.


sebast...@flowingconcept.com wrote
> Sometimes you want to polarise people but there is nothing interesting as
> output of this particular one, please consider review that inner joke
> Richard
> 
> So I agree, that this particular vocabulary will polarise people in an
> inconvenient way.
> 
> 
> 
> 
>> On Jan 18, 2015, at 6:30 AM, 

> jtuchel@

>  wrote:
>> 
>> Horrido,
>> 
>> You are aware that there are regions on this planet where mails
>> containing vocabulary like Blitzkrieg or Genaralissimo will evoke
>> reactions that will not help at ll. You are at risk to simply be ignored
>> in the best case. In the worst case, people will hsake their heads and
>> associate Smalltalk with a certain kind of political spam they receive
>> from time to time.
>> 
>> Joachim
>> 
>> 
>> Von: horrido <mailto:

> horrido.hobbies@

> >
>> Gesendet: ‎Samstag‎, ‎17‎. ‎Januar‎ ‎2015 ‎16‎:‎15
>> An: Any question about pharo is welcome <mailto:

> pharo-users@.pharo

> >
>> 
>> http://horridohobbies.tumblr.com/
>> <http://horridohobbies.tumblr.com/>;  
>> 
>> *Today is the one-month anniversary of the SRP.* We have made good
>> progress,
>> but there is still much work ahead of us.
>> 
>> Shortly, I will be seeking corporate sponsorship. As well, I'm trying to
>> coordinate activities with the Smalltalk Foundation.
>> 
>> Later this summer, I will be pushing my "Small Minds Initiative," a
>> sub-campaign of the SRP to get Smalltalk into the classroom. I will begin
>> with the Toronto District School Board.
>> 
>> Are we pumped yet?!
>> 
>> Generalissimo
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> --
>> View this message in context:
>> http://forum.world.st/Blitzkrieg-tp4800165.html
>> Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com.





--
View this message in context: 
http://forum.world.st/Blitzkrieg-tp4800165p4800229.html
Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

Re: [Pharo-users] InfoWorld on Redline Smalltalk

[horrido]

Let us know when Pharo-chat is ready. I'll move everything there.

Thanks.


stepharo wrote
> Hello people
> 
> do you realize that you are poluting the PHARO users mailing-list?
> What is the message we sent to users that are happily hacking in Pharo.
> The user mailing-list not an open bar to talk about any topics.
> 
> We will create a Pharo-chat mailing-list.
> And all these discussions should be moved there.
> 
> Stef
> 
> 
> Le 18/1/15 01:00, horrido a écrit :
>> Thanks for this link! I always thought there was something not right
>> about
>> Angular, and this article (and its links) clearly lay out the issue.
>>
>> Obviously, I think Amber is a better solution.
>>
>> The one big takeaway from these anti-Angular articles, I think, is
>> this...
>>
>> /IT management often make stupid choices based on fad, fashion, and
>> laziness./ They can't be bothered to do the actual research and
>> investigation to see which technology best fits their goals and
>> objectives.
>> Presumably, one of their chief objectives is to improve productivity and
>> save on (labour) costs. How can you meet this objective without at least
>> trying one of the premier productivity technologies on the market,
>> namely,
>> Smalltalk? How can you not have heard the oft-repeated claims about
>> Smalltalk's superlative productivity over the years? They've only been
>> made
>> year after year since the 1980s.
>>
>> All that is required is to run a pilot Smalltalk program. This will
>> definitively answer the question: How much more productive can you be in
>> developing software?
>>
>> Generalissimo
>>
>>
>> 

> sebastian@

>  wrote
>>>> On Jan 17, 2015, at 3:18 PM, kilon alios <
>>> kilon.alios@
>>> > wrote:
>>>> So overall I doubt that Smalltalk will ever be a big hit on JVM or
>>>> Javascript.
>>> Everybody is a looser if you frame it in that perspective.
>>>
>>> That game is not interesting, nor strategy wise.
>>>
>>> An interesting alternative is to create the opportunity for people to
>>> take
>>> their bite on the Java market and if they can do it, as small as it
>>> might
>>> be that’s all that really counts.
>>>
>>> James is already one of those someone will make it when the demand is
>>> felt.
>>>
>>> If Redline Smalltalk saves significant costs to a company that has
>>> invested heavy in something JVM-ish then you will have their attention.
>>>
>>> Productivity is one of the strongest opportunities for Smalltalk unless
>>> our tools UI/UX sucks so bad it get deteriorated or the world catches
>>> up.
>>>
>>> And we have control over the UI/UX we provide.
>>>
>>> Have you ever thought that AngularJS is essentially a Google strategy to
>>> bite Java’s market
>>> <http://www.quirksmode.org/blog/archives/2015/01/the_problem_wit.html>;?
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> View this message in context:
>> http://forum.world.st/InfoWorld-on-Redline-Smalltalk-tp4799678p4800193.html
>> Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>>
>>
>>





--
View this message in context: 
http://forum.world.st/InfoWorld-on-Redline-Smalltalk-tp4799678p4800233.html
Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

Re: [Pharo-users] Blitzkrieg!

[horrido]

You make some valid points. I shall reconsider my position. However, the
articles I write, such as "The Smalltalk Revolution" and "Dart is Dead", as
well as my "stream of consciousness" blog at Tumblr, must remain true to my
style. Artistically, I have no choice.

I'd like to make one further note: the handle Generalissimo was NOT selected
from the Italian army during WWII. So no one should take offence here. It
was used in an excellent Chinese film called " Back to 1942
<http://www.imdb.com/title/tt2113822/?ref_=nm_flmg_act_12>  ", which
impressed me so much that I glommed onto the handle. If you think this
reflects poorly on everyone, then I apologize.


Jimmie Houchin-5 wrote
> I do not think anybody is trying to compel you to be politically correct 
> or intellectually dishonest.
> 
> However, most of what you have been doing is being done in the name of 
> marketing. When marketing you choose what words you use and what words 
> you don't use. You choose in order to effect a certain result.
> 
> The words you choose have consequences. From the handle you choose to 
> label yourself by, to the words you choose to describe Smalltalk or Pharo.
> 
> You are a free person, living in a free part of the world. You make your 
> choices for your words. And you accept the consequences of those 
> choices. Whether for accolades or rebuke or somewhere in between. 
> However, in this context you are also attempting to represent a larger 
> community. You are attempting to represent and market Smalltalk and 
> Pharo. There are many here who are a part of that community will also 
> bear the consequences of words chosen by members of this community.
> 
> To my understanding all that is being asked is. Look at the big picture. 
> Choose your words, handles, labels wisely.
> 
> Is it politically correct or intellectually dishonest to call you Richard?
> Can you not be intellectually and artistically honest and choose words 
> for who you are and who you are writing to and for?
> Are there no other handles which are just as appropriate for you but are 
> better in this context?
> 
> I think it can often be just as intellectually dishonest to say, 
> "tough", "deal with it". I like these words and I do not want to make an 
> effort to choose others.
> 
> It is not the English language that constrains.
> 
> Regarding Paris. My heart and prayers go out to the people of France.
> 
> You are not writing political satire. You are attempting to make certain 
> technical, business, policy, ... arguments to market the adoption of 
> Smalltalk and Pharo.
> 
> You are not being attacked at all. You are simply being advised of 
> consequences to certain choices.
> 
> Choose. Choose well. For the consequences good or bad, are yours.
> 
> Jimmie
> 
> On 1/18/2015 10:16 AM, horrido wrote:
>> This is a fine line to tread. I have several problems with
>> self-censorship:
>>
>> First of all, "Generalissimo" is just a handle. My previous handle,
>> "horrido", was surely objectionable as well, since it's a play on the
>> battle
>> cry associated with the WWII German Luftwaffe ( Horrido: Fighter Aces of
>> the
>> Luftwaffe
>> <http://www.amazon.ca/Horrido-Luftwaffe-Raymond-F-Toliver/dp/0553126636>;
>>  
>> ).
>>
>> I admit to being a WWII buff. I have been for many years. Should I
>> apologize
>> for this?
>>
>> Second, I am firmly and philosophically opposed to Political Correctness.
>> I
>> find it intellectually offensive to my very core. I guess that would make
>> me
>> a lousy politician.
>>
>> One thing that no one can accuse me of is being intellectually dishonest.
>>
>> Third, my self-censorship is hardly different from what Muslim terrorists
>> were trying to achieve in Paris last week. Free expression should be
>> protected (as long as it is not foul or vulgar). Any language you use
>> will
>> offend /someone somewhere/ at /some time/ in the world. I try to be
>> sensible
>> and I try to be artistically honest. This is reflected in my writings.
>> There
>> will always be people who find my style distasteful. There isn't much I
>> can
>> do about that.
>>
>>
>> 

> sebastian@

>  wrote
>>> Sometimes you want to polarise people but there is nothing interesting
>>> as
>>> output of this particular one, please consider review that inner joke
>>> Richard
>>>
>>> So I agree, that this particular vocabulary will polarise people in an
>>> inconvenient way.
>>>
>>>
>>

Re: [Pharo-users] Blitzkrieg!

[horrido]

Excellent advice! I shall do exactly that.

Again, I apologize if anyone was offended by my use of the world
"blitzkrieg". I was trying to be clever and it obviously backfired on me.

My love of WWII history should not paint me as a bad guy. To be honest, I
had no idea that modern Germans still feel very touchy about the subject. As
a Canadian growing up, my friends and I loved to play war, esp. WWII, and
this has been ingrained into my character. I had a profound admiration for
great tactics and strategy (which may also explain my love of chess), and
there's no question that blitzkrieg ranked high in that regard.


Jimmie Houchin-5 wrote
> As an USAmerican, I would not have associated Generalissimo with WWII. 
> It is a common term for a leader in many Hispanic nations or armies. 
> Many of them unfortunately are dictators.
> 
> I also not being a WWII buff, was not familiar with horrido. It meant 
> nothing to me and I didn't look. It was merely a label you were using to 
> represent yourself.
> 
> That is one of the interesting things about this list is it is very 
> global in representation. So it is very difficult to know name 
> associations that people will make.
> 
> When representing ourselves we can make any choice we want, wise or not. 
> But hopefully if we are doing something which represents some community 
> (this or any other) we should make decisions within that context.
> 
> Considering what has been learned about global perception. You might 
> take the opportunity on your blog on an about page or something to 
> educate as to what your chosen names represent, to you, whom they are 
> representing. This could present an opportunity to educate on one of 
> your favorite topics and to allow people who might otherwise have the 
> wrong understanding to obtain the correct one for you and your context.
> 
> Just some thoughts.
> 
> Jimmie
> 
> 
> On 1/18/2015 11:22 AM, horrido wrote:
>> You make some valid points. I shall reconsider my position. However, the
>> articles I write, such as "The Smalltalk Revolution" and "Dart is Dead",
>> as
>> well as my "stream of consciousness" blog at Tumblr, must remain true to
>> my
>> style. Artistically, I have no choice.
>>
>> I'd like to make one further note: the handle Generalissimo was NOT
>> selected
>> from the Italian army during WWII. So no one should take offence here. It
>> was used in an excellent Chinese film called " Back to 1942
>> <http://www.imdb.com/title/tt2113822/?ref_=nm_flmg_act_12>;  ",
>> which
>> impressed me so much that I glommed onto the handle. If you think this
>> reflects poorly on everyone, then I apologize.
>>
>>
>> Jimmie Houchin-5 wrote
>>> I do not think anybody is trying to compel you to be politically correct
>>> or intellectually dishonest.
>>>
>>> However, most of what you have been doing is being done in the name of
>>> marketing. When marketing you choose what words you use and what words
>>> you don't use. You choose in order to effect a certain result.
>>>
>>> The words you choose have consequences. From the handle you choose to
>>> label yourself by, to the words you choose to describe Smalltalk or
>>> Pharo.
>>>
>>> You are a free person, living in a free part of the world. You make your
>>> choices for your words. And you accept the consequences of those
>>> choices. Whether for accolades or rebuke or somewhere in between.
>>> However, in this context you are also attempting to represent a larger
>>> community. You are attempting to represent and market Smalltalk and
>>> Pharo. There are many here who are a part of that community will also
>>> bear the consequences of words chosen by members of this community.
>>>
>>> To my understanding all that is being asked is. Look at the big picture.
>>> Choose your words, handles, labels wisely.
>>>
>>> Is it politically correct or intellectually dishonest to call you
>>> Richard?
>>> Can you not be intellectually and artistically honest and choose words
>>> for who you are and who you are writing to and for?
>>> Are there no other handles which are just as appropriate for you but are
>>> better in this context?
>>>
>>> I think it can often be just as intellectually dishonest to say,
>>> "tough", "deal with it". I like these words and I do not want to make an
>>> effort to choose others.
>>>
>>> It is not the English language that constrains.
>>>
>>> Regarding

Re: [Pharo-users] InfoWorld on Redline Smalltalk

[horrido]

Alain Rastoul-2 wrote
> "If we can't convince these organizations that they'll be much more
> productive using Smalltalk over Java, and save tons of money /in the long
> run/, then how can we ever advance our agenda to the rest of the world??"
> 
> I do not see productivity as very important. It is just an (eventually) 
> good feature.
> Productivity, and cost are the most flawed indicators in software 
> development and this is the argument I hate the most (I may be a bit 
> rude about that because I have to maintain some old legacy code and  we 
> had quite some bugs last years).
> Costs in the middle and long run are clearly related to code quality and 
> to bugs, not to productivity.
> And sometimes, the cost of bugs is terrible when you think about how 
> many people are involved in the chain and what has to be done to solve 
> customer problems and revert the results of bugs. .. Awful.

It's true, the long-term costs of maintenance generally outweigh the initial
cost of development. But this is true regardless of which language you use.
It does not imply that companies do not care to write their applications
quickly and economically.

Smalltalk may offer benefits during maintenance and bug-fixing, too. But
that's a lot harder to quantify and therefore harder to sell. It's much
easier to make – and demonstrate! – the productivity argument.

> "Strategically, it shows Smalltalk's versatility and that
> it's not just a one-trick pony. Limiting ourselves to just desktop (or
> Seaside) applications is rather short-sighted."
> 
> I do not understand how Smalltalk will be more versatile  by using a jvm 
> ?  doing like others ?
> 
> IMHO innovation is related to change, this implies not following the 
> main path somewhere,
> and some risks too.

By versatile, I mean that Smalltalk usage is applicable in many other
domains, including JVM, .NET, mobile, etc.

I'm all for innovation, but we cannot ignore current needs. For better or
worse, the JVM is the de facto enterprise standard platform. If we can't
play in their space, then that just /looks/ bad. After all, Java is our
biggest competitor.

> To end, I found your question a good revealer about  one's expectations 
> about pharo, very interesting :).
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Regards,
> 
> Alain





--
View this message in context: 
http://forum.world.st/InfoWorld-on-Redline-Smalltalk-tp4799678p4800277.html
Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

[Pharo-users] Essays

[horrido]

We have a couple of essays published at  Smalltalk renaissance
  . *We need
more.*

This is our opportunity to answer the questions, concerns, and criticisms of
non-Smalltalk developers, an opportunity afforded by the SRP, which is
drawing much new attention to Smalltalk. We should exploit this opportunity
and not waste it.

Suggested essay topics include:

- talk about actual use of Smalltalk in the enterprise
- expand on the much-touted productivity advantage of Smalltalk (many people
are skeptical)
- explain how the experience of using the Smalltalk environment is superior
to that of Eclipse, IntelliJ, Visual Studio, etc.
- talk about future developments in Smalltalk, eg, concurrency features, new
IDEs, new tooling, etc.
- any other topics you may deem noteworthy

So, please, contribute an essay. /Without you, there is no campaign./

Send all submissions to my personal email: horrido.hobbies at gmail dot com.

Thanks.



--
View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/Essays-tp4800394.html
Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

Re: [Pharo-users] Blitzkrieg!

[horrido]

Marcus Denker-4 wrote
>> On 18 Jan 2015, at 13:16, horrido <

> horrido.hobbies@

> > wrote:
>> 
>> This is a fine line to tread. I have several problems with
>> self-censorship:
>> 
>> First of all, "Generalissimo" is just a handle. My previous handle,
>> "horrido", was surely objectionable as well, since it's a play on the
>> battle
>> cry associated with the WWII German Luftwaffe ( Horrido: Fighter Aces of
>> the
>> Luftwaffe
>> <http://www.amazon.ca/Horrido-Luftwaffe-Raymond-F-Toliver/dp/0553126636>;
>>  
>> ).
>> 
>> I admit to being a WWII buff. I have been for many years. Should I
>> apologize
>> for this?
> 
> As a german living in France I feel insulted.
> 
>   Marcus

Wow, you really have a problem with me being a WWII buff?? I should feel
insulted.

You do realize that I'm not the only WWII buff on the planet, right?



--
View this message in context: 
http://forum.world.st/Blitzkrieg-tp4800165p4800397.html
Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

Re: [Pharo-users] Blitzkrieg!

[horrido]

Marcus Denker-4 wrote
>> On 18 Jan 2015, at 19:37, Sebastian Sastre <

> sebastian@

> > wrote:
>> 
>> Please don’t take it as self-censorship but as strategy on communication.
>> 
>> It’s fine that you have a taste for history but you need to calculate the
>> way you make rapport (or not) with your audience and don’t let it
>> interfere too much with your message.
>> 
>> I don’t feel your inner sophisticated handle was helping you to convey
>> your signal 
>> 
>> You are showing that you are a good listener, that’s really great!
>> 
> Honestly: He is *awful*. 
> 
>> Keep up the good work!
>> 
> 
> Do you really think that? Wow.
> 
>   Marcus

Consider all the positive publicity that I've drawn to Smalltalk in just the
past several weeks. The excitement is palpable.

Up until recently, Smalltalk has been all but forgotten in the IT community
at large. Do you need evidence?

Consider that organizations such as the Smalltalk Foundation or ESUG have
not achieved even this much in 9 months, or several years! Just how quick
should progress be in your mind?

You have no conception of the amount of work I've put into the SRP. You are
quick to dismiss it all as, what, hot air?



--
View this message in context: 
http://forum.world.st/Blitzkrieg-tp4800165p4800399.html
Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

Re: [Pharo-users] Blitzkrieg!

[horrido]

There is much to respond to here. First of all, I was NOT putting down ESUG
or Smalltalk Foundation. I was simply pointing out that, despite their
promotional efforts, Smalltalk has slipped out of the public consciousness,
as evidenced by language rankings and coverage in the IT press, as well as
the fact that Smalltalk does not compete well against the likes of Java for
enterprise adoption. Have I made any inaccurate observations here?

Second, I am NOT trying to over-promote myself or even promote myself at
all. The only reason why I state my accomplishments is to *defend* myself
against criticism. I don't want the SRP to be about me. I have repeatedly
stated that the SRP is about *you*, the Smalltalk community. Without your
support and contributions, I do not have a campaign. Period.

To the extent that I am challenged in galvanizing the Smalltalk community, I
have to visibly lead the charge. I know that everyone is pretty busy, so it
is understandable that trying to get you to contribute is rather like
pulling teeth. I accept that; it is part of my job. It is thus inevitable
that my persona has to enter the picture. And this is apparently a point of
friction.

Third, it seems funny that I have to give you a "state of the union" report
on the campaign. If you were paying attention at all, if you gave a damn,
you would have all the information. But nevertheless, here goes...

Through a web of social media, through my publications, through the mention
of Smalltalk Renaissance in InfoWorld, word of Smalltalk is once again
rippling out to the rest of the cybersphere. You can see this on my Twitter
feed, where I am continually gaining followers, where my tweets are being
retweeted and favourited. Who knows how far these tweets are propagating!
It's hard to tell, but I'm guessing that *Smalltalk is on the minds of a lot
more people today than it was a month ago.*

Ditto for Facebook and Google+ where I'm also continually gaining followers
and likes. I'm even gaining followers on WordPress, something that I did not
expect.

Moreover, exposure at Medium should not be underestimated. It gets a lot of
eyeballs. The current tally of "The Smalltalk Revolution" is 14K views and
7.6K reads, with 16 recommendations. This is by far the most popular article
I have ever written in my entire life! And I've written a lot of sh*t.

Getting a mention in InfoWorld is a big deal. Congrats to James Ladd and
Redline. You have no idea how hard it is to get the IT press to cover
Smalltalk. I'm thankful for small victories.

I have no idea what the impact of all this is, but if Smalltalk manages to
get back onto the TIOBE language index in the next month or two, you can be
pretty sure it's because of my efforts.

Fourth, I am perfectly aware of all the Smalltalk material that have been
published online over the years. It is truly voluminous and impressive. It
is all part of a "grassroots" effort to promote Smalltalk, and this should
not be dismissed.

However, grassroots are NOT going to get you where you want to be...unless
you are satisfied to remain in your niche forever. The idea that if you
build it, they will come, is incredibly naive. You /have/ built it. You
/are/ building it. Still, Smalltalk is not gaining a lot of converts. Why?
Because you haven't told them a good story. You haven't persuaded them that
Smalltalk has a future, after it has fizzled over the past 20 years. This is
a tough perception to overcome.

The SRP is your opportunity to tell your story. I believe you have the power
to persuade. This was the whole idea behind my campaign.

Fifth, if you don't believe in my campaign, or in what I'm doing, then why,
oh, why am I wasting my time and energy?? If the issue is *me*, my
undesirable persona, then perhaps I should step down and let someone else
take over. I'm sure one of you can put in the same amount of time and energy
that I have (6-8 hours a day, every day for the past several weeks, with
many more weeks to come). I'm sure one of you has a better plan, a better
strategy.

I am not looking for recognition. I am not looking for gratitude (although a
wee bit would be appreciated). I am not doing this because I'm an
egotistical maniac. I'm doing it because I believe in Smalltalk. I'm doing
it out of the kindness and goodness of my heart.

But if you think so little of me, then tell me to F--- off. /Because,
seriously, I don't need this./



--
View this message in context: 
http://forum.world.st/Blitzkrieg-tp4800165p4800506.html
Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

Re: [Pharo-users] Blitzkrieg!

[horrido]

Well, I've already apologized. You are right, I was oblivious to
extra-cultural thinking, to which I plead ignorance. Now that I know better,
I shall do better.

Please remember, I'm a volunteer. I stepped up when no one else would. Am I
the best man for the job? Probably not, *but who is??*

I will make mistakes. Hopefully, I will learn from my mistakes. Hopefully, I
will do a good job for you.

As per Jimmie's advice, I have prepared a note that explains where I'm
coming from, so that no one in the future should ever misconstrue my
writings: http://horridohobbies.tumblr.com/

I still don't think there's anything wrong with me being a WWII buff, so I
shall never apologize for that. However, I shall endeavour to be sensitive
to people in other parts of the world. Where I stumble, I will expect you to
correct me. After all, I *am* human. If you prick me, do I not bleed?


Alain Rastoul-2 wrote
> I agree fully with all of what  Ben said,
> but I would like to say a last word before stopping me too, because 
> that bother me and very probably other people.
> 
> I  thought about that thread in the train  this morning, I was  reading 
> charlie hebdo "message de Cabu: allez les gars ne vous laissez pas 
> abattre" bad translation: "come on guys dont let yourself be down (shot 
> down in french)" Cabu was one of the charlie hebo magazine guys shot 
> last week and  very well known and loved in france.
> the epitaph  was : "rions aux larmes"  (let's laught to tears")
> That was really hard.
> Here I couldn't laugh at all even if I like to joke about everything 
> (me, my bike, my code, things I like, the awkward and stupid  the more I 
> like - people do not always appreciate, they think I'm stupid and I am, 
> so it's ok)
> 
> I hate people who think they have rights over others.
> In the past I talked to several much older  people (all dead now) whose 
> lives where completely broken by war.
> 
> That you are WWII buff is fine for you if you like that, for me I don't,
> even if my son liked to play war with soldiers figurines when he was 8 
> and I liked to played with him.  He grew up, I did  too (... not 
> completely sure for that one :) ),
> 
> these are things I hate and I will allways be against.
> I will *never* rally up with a "blitzkrieg smalltalk" or "horiirod" or 
> "generalisimo" whatever ...
> Even if I love smalltalk.
> As a PR campain Richard, this is upmost too bad taste for me.
> 
> On the other hand, I think a carefully driven PR campaign could be good 
> a thing, and it's great to see involved people,  you worked hard on that.
> We could also talk of lot interesting things related to software
> evolution.
> For example  that :
> - dinausors died because they where not agile enough to handle 
> meteorits, should they have learned scrum in order to diversify ? :)
> - the graal quest seems to have failed in life, and in software too ?
> - smalltalk is mostly about implementing and refactoring living systems ?
> there are very actual great examples of that in software .
> 
> 
> -- 
> Regards,
> 
> Alain





--
View this message in context: 
http://forum.world.st/Blitzkrieg-tp4800165p4800735.html
Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

[Pharo-users] Mea Culpa

[horrido]

Okay, so far, I've made two mistakes. First was my lack of sensitivity to
cultural differences around the world. Now that I know better, I shall do
better.

Second was my failure to distinguish between different subgroups within the
Pharo forum. The reason I chose Pharo forum to discuss my campaign was the
fact that it is the most active Smalltalk forum there is. People who are
interested in Smalltalk join the most active forum generally, and this
includes not only Pharoers, but people from ESUG, Squeak, Cincom, Amber,
Redline, etc.

So, for example, when I appealed for contributors to the Redline project, I
should've distinguished the target audience as those groups other than
Pharoers. This was my failure and I own up to it.

It is unfortunate that I must use the Pharo forum for this purpose. The
Smalltalk community is so terribly fragmented that there is no universal
Smalltalk forum to address, at least, none that is actually *inhabited*.
Without the ability to address the largest number of Smalltalkers, the SRP
cannot make any progress. I'm sorry, but I have to be blunt.

If anyone can offer a practical alternative, I'd like to hear it. Otherwise,
the SRP has only two choices:

1) Continue what it is doing on the Pharo forum, and be mindful of which
group(s) I am addressing.

2) Fold up the campaign and leave the destiny of Smalltalk to the Fates.
Without the ability to reach out to Smalltalkers everywhere, I am hopelessly
disadvantaged.

Regards,
Richard



--
View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/Mea-Culpa-tp4800840.html
Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

Re: [Pharo-users] Mea Culpa

[horrido]

hernanmd wrote
>> It is unfortunate that I must use the Pharo forum for this purpose. The
>> Smalltalk community is so terribly fragmented that there is no universal
>> Smalltalk forum to address, at least, none that is actually *inhabited*.
>> Without the ability to address the largest number of Smalltalkers, the
>> SRP
>> cannot make any progress. I'm sorry, but I have to be blunt.
>>
>>
> Then maybe you should start your own Smalltalk mailing-list?

A new mailing list that is uninhabited has no value for our campaign. If you
create one, it may take months or years before a large number of
Smalltalkers migrate to it.

>> If anyone can offer a practical alternative, I'd like to hear it.
>> Otherwise,
>> the SRP has only two choices:
>>
>> 1) Continue what it is doing on the Pharo forum, and be mindful of which
>> group(s) I am addressing.
>>
>> 2) Fold up the campaign and leave the destiny of Smalltalk to the Fates.
>> Without the ability to reach out to Smalltalkers everywhere, I am
>> hopelessly
>> disadvantaged.
>>
>>
> I am not that convinced Smalltalk should be popular. Surely any
> smalltalker
> could find easily (more) job offers, that would be the only determinant
> factor because we need desperately more Smalltalk positions. But
> popularity
> has many drawbacks some smalltalkers are afraid to competition, and we
> all read the StackOverflow 'popular' questions...

There are people who don't care for Smalltalk's popularity, and there are
people who really hope that Smalltalk becomes mainstream. I strongly suspect
that the latter group is much larger.

Smalltalk positions are relatively few and far between (at least, this is
true in Canada). Becoming mainstream is the only way to improve this. Very
few developers are willing to relocate.

> So, my alternative is: Instead of broadcasting Smalltalk by traditional
> internet advertising, go and get them. I suspect you won't get much from
> us, we are some kind of Loyal Customers. But there are tons of
> unexperienced developers lacking of fear to change, which are reading
> Quora, StackExchange, Wikipedia, etc. And unexperienced developers are the
> next business decision makers.

In order to improve Smalltalk's popularity, it is necessary to harness the
support and energy of the Smalltalk community. This is not a question of
preaching to the converted; it's about getting help to convert others.




--
View this message in context: 
http://forum.world.st/Mea-Culpa-tp4800840p4800872.html
Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

[Pharo-users] The Smalltalk Revolution is still going!

[horrido]

My article "The Smalltalk Revolution" is a frickin' Energizer Bunny! It just
keeps going and going and going...

At this moment, it has surpassed 15K views and 8.1K reads. Instead of
petering out, *as it appeared to be doing earlier this week*, it seems to be
growing again! /I wonder what's going on??/



--
View this message in context: 
http://forum.world.st/The-Smalltalk-Revolution-is-still-going-tp4800873.html
Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

Re: [Pharo-users] Essays

[horrido]

Someone mentioned to me that there are some incredible Pharo-related projects
coming down the pike, that these developments should be made known to the
rest of the world. To which I replied:

> Yes, yes, yes! Absolutely! I want Pharo to get this message out there.
> 
> I can help, but I cannot be the only voice. This is why I entreat you to
> write about these incredible developments and present them as essays at
> our website. I have focussed (or tried to focus) the world's attention on
> our web of social media (eg, WordPress, Twitter, Facebook, Google+,
> LinkedIn). Rather than having your message scattered everywhere, it should
> be in one place 
*
> where everybody is drawn to
*
> . 
*
> That's the power of branding!
*
> 
> As I mentioned in a previous post, the amount of published information on
> Smalltalk (and Pharo) is voluminous. For me to curate all this information
> and summarize it on our website is daunting; I simply don't have enough
> time and energy. I need your help.

So please, take this unique opportunity to spread your message. Talk about
all the great things coming out of Pharo. I will publish your essays and
make you look good!

You know where to send your submissions.

Thanks.

horrido wrote
> We have a couple of essays published at 
> Smalltalk renaissance
> <https://smalltalkrenaissance.wordpress.com/category/essays/>  
> . 
*
> We need more.
*
> 
> This is our opportunity to answer the questions, concerns, and criticisms
> of non-Smalltalk developers, an opportunity afforded by the SRP, which is
> drawing much new attention to Smalltalk. We should exploit this
> opportunity and not waste it.
> 
> Suggested essay topics include:
> 
> - talk about actual use of Smalltalk in the enterprise
> - expand on the much-touted productivity advantage of Smalltalk (many
> people are skeptical)
> - explain how the experience of using the Smalltalk environment is
> superior to that of Eclipse, IntelliJ, Visual Studio, etc.
> - talk about future developments in Smalltalk, eg, concurrency features,
> new IDEs, new tooling, etc.
> - any other topics you may deem noteworthy
> 
> So, please, contribute an essay. 
/
> Without you, there is no campaign.
/
> 
> Send all submissions to my personal email: horrido.hobbies at gmail dot
> com.
> 
> Thanks.





--
View this message in context: 
http://forum.world.st/Essays-tp4800394p4801004.html
Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

Re: [Pharo-users] Mea Culpa

[horrido]

Any language that has a significant user base, ie, a large number of
applications, will experience resistance to change. The only way to avoid
this is for people NOT to use the language.

The fear of popularization will condemn a language to permanent niche
status. That's fine, if that's what the user community wants. The language
will forever be a "hobbyist" tool.


Sean P. DeNigris wrote
> 
> hernanmd wrote
>> I am not that convinced Smalltalk should be popular
> For me, the goal is "critical mass" - big enough where issues and new
> projects move forward with ease. And this is probably just a few hundred
> percent. Mass popularity brings in people disconnected from the vision.
> Smalltalk for me is prototype Dynabook software. If it was just "a better
> programming environment", I'd still use it, but I doubt there would still
> be a passionate dream for the future of humanity attached to it...





--
View this message in context: 
http://forum.world.st/Mea-Culpa-tp4800840p4801047.html
Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

Re: [Pharo-users] Popular

[horrido]

So let me see if I understand this...

Pharo is not ready for prime time because it's still gestating? At what
point will Pharo be ready for everyone in the world to use? Five years from
now? Ten years?

And when it is ready for the world to use, can we be sure that the world
will use it? "If you build it, they will come." Really??

Have we not learned that grassroots guarantee nothing? The language
landscape is littered with dead or dying languages that failed to rise above
grassroots.

At some point, people will begin to use your language (you hope). And when
that time comes (sooner than 5 years?), organic growth will be a lot
tougher.

You don't get to choose your users; the users choose your language. Of
course, you can always screw them by pulling the rug from underneath them.
Not nice, but who said you have to be nice?

The idea that hackers know, or can determine, what is a "good" language
strikes me as rather presumptuous and incorrect. And whose definition of
"good" are we using anyway?


Ben Coman wrote
> I found this article on the popularity of programming languages
> interesting.
> http://www.paulgraham.com/popular.html
> 
> It mostly references Lisp, but I think a lot of the same applies to Pharo.
> It is quite long so I picked a few points that stood out to me:
> 
> Some non-technical points...
> 
> * Nothing could be better, for a new technology, than a few years of being
> used only by a small number of early adopters. Early adopters are
> sophisticated and demanding, and quickly flush out whatever flaws remain
> in
> your technology. When you only have a few users you can be in close
> contact
> with all of them. And early adopters are forgiving when you improve your
> system, even if this causes some breakage.
> 
> * Users are a double-edged sword. They can help you improve your language,
> but they can also deter you from improving it. So choose your users
> carefully, and be slow to grow their number. Having users is like
> optimization: the wise course is to delay it.
> 
> * There are two ways new technology gets introduced: the organic growth
> method, and the big bang method. ... Organic growth seems to yield better
> technology and richer founders than the big bang method. If you look at
> the
> dominant technologies today, you'll find that most of them grew
> organically.
> 
> * Hackers have to know about a language before they can use it. How are
> they to hear? From other hackers. But there has to be some initial group
> of
> hackers using the language for others even to hear about it. I wonder how
> large this group has to be; how many users make a critical mass? Off the
> top of my head, I'd say twenty.
> 
> 
> 
> Some technical points...
> 
> * There is one thing more important than brevity to a hacker: being able
> to
> do what you want. In the history of programming languages a surprising
> amount of effort has gone into preventing programmers from doing things
> considered to be improper. This is a dangerously presumptuous plan ... The
> bumbler will shoot himself in the foot anyway ... Good programmers often
> want to do dangerous and unsavoury things ... give the programmer access
> to
> as much internal stuff as you can without endangering runtime systems like
> the garbage collector.
> 
> * It might be a good idea to have an active profiler -- to push
> performance
> data to the programmer instead of waiting for him to come asking for it.
> For example, the editor could display bottlenecks in red when the
> programmer edits the source code.
> 
> * It might be a good idea to make the byte code an official part of the
> language, and to allow programmers to use inline byte code in bottlenecks.
> 
> * The most important part of design is redesign. Programming languages,
> especially, don't get redesigned enough.
> 
> cheers -ben





--
View this message in context: 
http://forum.world.st/Popular-tp4801049p4801103.html
Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

Re: [Pharo-users] Mea Culpa

[horrido]

In fact, I did look for previous attempts to "market" Smalltalk. I found
nothing. All previous attempts to popularize Smalltalk have been grassroots,
ie, using word of mouth; giving talks and seminars at conferences and local
user groups; a scattered (and somewhat chaotic) collection of blogs and
websites. Nothing that /focuses/ attention.

A personal note: it was word of mouth that got me hooked on Smalltalk. A
close friend of mine from Cherniak Software persuaded me to look into
Smalltalk. If not for him, I'd *still* think Smalltalk was a dying language
today.


blake wrote
>>>Without the ability to address the largest number of Smalltalkers, the
SRP
> cannot make any progress.<<
> 
> Did you do any research on this before embarking? You may not be the first
> person who has attempted what you're trying.
> ​
> Often when I'm trying to accomplish something that hasn't previously been
> attempted or, if attempted, not attained, I find that I've misunderstood
> where the difficulty lies. In very few cases is it merely a matter of
> determination.
> 
> Looking at others' failures can be instructive.





--
View this message in context: 
http://forum.world.st/Mea-Culpa-tp4800840p4801107.html
Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

Re: [Pharo-users] Mea Culpa

[horrido]

Offray wrote
> I think that SRP has a "flaw" of showing itself as some kind of way to 
> save Smalltalk of its unpopular destiny, not being on top 10 of TIOBE or 
> being a niche platform, but for me that's not a cruel destiny and if it 
> were that's not the best way to fight against it, but by building stuff 
> that more people can use. Talking by making instead of talking by 
> talking. We can start with some small community and spread from there 
> (interactive documentation is my approach).

This is the popular "if you build it, they will come" philosophy. It /may/
work, but I seriously doubt it.

> So may be the best way of SRP to serve Smalltalk could be to not be so 
> "self-serving" about its own goals (popularity, jvm, javascript, 
> enterprise, TIOBE) and show the diversity of views and concerns of the 
> Smalltalk community. To be a place for diversity in Smalltalk (may be a 
> curator of dispersed experiences elsewhere).

I don't understand what you mean by "self-serving". The SRP does not serve
itself – it serves *you*, the Smalltalk community. It's sole purpose is to
promote your language, to raise it in the public consciousness, to get
people to try it. There is no other agenda.

Of course, whether or not you /want/ this attention is a different question.

> I hope it helps,
> 
> Offray





--
View this message in context: 
http://forum.world.st/Mea-Culpa-tp4800840p4801113.html
Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

[Pharo-users] The SRP Has Moved

[horrido]

By now, every Smalltalker and his dog have heard about the Smalltalk
Renaissance Program. So it is no longer necessary to stay in the Pharo
forum.

I have moved all future SRP-related discussions to the /English/ forum at
forum.world.st. I ask everyone who is even remotely interested in the
campaign to join the English forum (aka  Smalltalk Research
  ).

I remind everyone that the SRP is about you and your community. Without you,
there is no campaign. Please participate.

Thank you.



--
View this message in context: 
http://forum.world.st/The-SRP-Has-Moved-tp4801141.html
Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

[Pharo-users] Stop Thinking in Terms of Files

[horrido]

I submitted an article at Reddit called "Stop Thinking in Terms of Files."
Some guy with the handle "audioen" wrote the following comment:

We have heard that smalltalk appears to use model similar to a LISP machine
of yore in that the programming environment = the OS = the runtime
environment. Once you define a function, it simply exists without being
written to a file or compiled into some process that runs it. You can just
call it, or undefine it and it ceases to be. From this point of view, it is
probably perfectly valid to say that it has no files, because it doesn't
need them.

On the other hand, let's assume that your smalltalk image got a little bit
corrupted so that some packages/functions/whatever are now missing or not
functioning. Or, let's say that you accidentally undefined a function and
that was a mistake and now you really want to get it back. How would you do
that? The file-based answer is that you hopefully had backups of the files
that held definition of that function. What passes for a backup in smalltalk
land?

And how do you deal with version control? How do you recover from mistakes?
If you wanted to share your crap to someone else collaboratively through
e.g. github, how would you do that? You'd have to export your functions into
individual files, probably, and packages as directories into git. Someone
would check them out, eval them, make changes, and commit updated functions.
How does this kind of process look like, in a non-file paradigm, if it is
done at all? (Does smalltalk VM even support networking?)

In general how do you even dump the state of the VM in some way that you can
show someone what exactly your project is made of, in textual form? It's not
very nice to dump an entire image and tell them to just run that. I bet the
image is much larger and contains historical stuff that you no longer care
about. What if you really just wanted to publish a recipe that can construct
something equivalent of that particular image? What does "docker" for
smalltalk look like?

If you tell us files suck, tell us also how you solve the same problems that
we solve through files. Especially that collaborative programming through
github use case interests me a little.
-

I must confess, I'm not fully qualified to answer this comment, /at least,
not optimally/. Perhaps some of you can go to  the Reddit link

  
and respond? Thanks.



--
View this message in context: 
http://forum.world.st/Stop-Thinking-in-Terms-of-Files-tp4865614.html
Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

Re: [Pharo-users] Stop Thinking in Terms of Files

[horrido]

"An image is essentially a self-contained operating system that manages all
the code for you, thanks to an easy-to-use IDE."

I'm not trying to be pedantic. I'm using general parlance to convey an idea,
and the idea is essentially correct. And I'm hardly alone. GemTalk's own
"Pharo, the collaborActive Book" defines image in much the same way:

"A Smalltalk Image is your entire system. The Image includes all the tools
required to interact, customize and add functionality to your system, so
Smalltalk’s IDE is a very Integrated Development Environment."

Let's not conflate /implementation/ with the Smalltalk UI experience. Of
course, under the hood, Smalltalk is implemented using files. Duh!

Today, Smalltalk is hosted on Windows or Mac OS or Linux or whatever other
OS. But the original idea behind Smalltalk was that it would be a
self-contained operating system; no host required. Think back to the Xerox
PARC days: how did they host Smalltalk? Remember the  Xerox Alto
  ?

The reality is that the entire world is deeply entrenched on using files,
much the same way the entire world is entrenched on using QWERTY keyboards
and automobile steering wheels. Smalltalk has to live in this world, /so it
makes accommodations/ for filein/fileout, Git, etc. Amber for the web has to
live with HTML, CSS, and JS files.

However, this does not alter the basic premise of my article. Smalltalk
programming is a file-free abstraction. In order to enjoy this environment,
you should mentally unfetter yourself from the traditional methodology of
using file-based tools like Emacs, IntelliJ, and so on. *This is one of the
main things holding back developers.*



kilon.alios wrote
> "
> 
> *Files belong in the Stone Age"*
> 
> *No they do not !*
> 
> "Smalltalk is an *image-based* programming language."
> 
> An image IS a file !!!
> 
> "An image is essentially a self-contained operating system that manages
> all
> the code for you, thanks to
> 
> *an easy-to-use IDE"*
> 
> 
> *no its not!!! the vm is the virtual OS , the image is the OS libraries.
> The VM also is a binary file separate from image and comes with a lot more
> files , plugins and external libraries. *
> 
> 
> *Look man you do more harm with these articles than you do good. This
> Smalltalk hype is the worst of its kind and completely misses the point of
> why Smalltalk is great. *
> 
> 
> *It would even make zero diffirence if we were to break the image file
> down
> to much smaller files, it would still be a live coding enviroment.
> Actually
> you dont even need those files to be even binary , text source code files
> can still store live state and be all about objects. *





--
View this message in context: 
http://forum.world.st/Stop-Thinking-in-Terms-of-Files-tp4865614p4865642.html
Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

Re: [Pharo-users] Stop Thinking in Terms of Files

[horrido]

I didn't say I cannot answer the questions; I said I may not answer them
/optimally/. After all, *I haven't used Smalltalk in a long while*, and I
was never an expert to begin with. I'm certainly not up with the latest
developments in Pharo. (For example, I didn't know that Pharo no longer has
filein/fileout.)

I'd rather not give a weak response. Hence, I appealed to you guys. You live
and breathe Smalltalk; I don't.

I posted in amber-lang because I know many Pharoers are there, too, and I
use Amber. The Pharo forum is less inviting for me, I find. This thread is a
fine example. 



kilon.alios wrote
> *And on top of that there are people there asking you the easiest
> questions
> and you cannot even answer them while at the same time you proclaim the
> end
> of File's "Stone age". *
> 
> *And on top of that you post this in amber-lang which is not even relevant
> in any way with your article (since its not image based) just to get more
> attention. *





--
View this message in context: 
http://forum.world.st/Stop-Thinking-in-Terms-of-Files-tp4865614p4865643.html
Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

Re: [Pharo-users] Stop Thinking in Terms of Files

[horrido]

And for the record, a number of long-time Smalltalkers have expressed their
appreciation for the work I've done. One of them (a 25-year Smalltalk
veteran!!!) said to me: "You may think the job was thankless, but I think
you did a great job." I really, truly appreciate his accolade.

Hey, I get it. Not everybody agrees with my marketing approach. *And not
every Smalltalker wants Smalltalk to become popular.* I expect these folks
to be in the minority.

It is sad and unfortunate that the Smalltalk community is divided in this
manner.



kilon.alios wrote
> *Look man you do more harm with these articles than you do good. This
> Smalltalk hype is the worst of its kind and completely misses the point of
> why Smalltalk is great. *





--
View this message in context: 
http://forum.world.st/Stop-Thinking-in-Terms-of-Files-tp4865614p4865648.html
Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

Re: [Pharo-users] Stop Thinking in Terms of Files

[horrido]

I don't understand people today. They seem so brittle and inflexible,
unwilling to open their minds and learn.

When I was fresh out of university, my only programming experience was with
FORTRAN on mainframes. My first job was on the newest technology of the day: 
DEC PDP-11   . Subsequently, I had jobs
working on Tandem NonStop computers (GUARDIAN OS and TAL programming
language), Modcomp systems and their assembler, Unix and C, VAX and DCL,
AS/400, Windows, Smalltalk and Seaside, Python and web2py, Java and Android,
Objective-C and iOS, etc. Each and every job was an exciting, stimulating
learning opportunity. It was **fun** diving into unexplored territory.

These various environments were quite different from one another. But I had
no trouble adapting. The various programming languages had *substantially*
different syntaxes. But I wasn't bothered. It took little time for me to get
comfortable with each new language.

So why is Smalltalk giving people conniptions? Are they really so spoiled?

Re: today's IDEs (Eclipse, IntelliJ, Visual Studio, etc.). The problem isn't
that they are so resource-hungry. It's that they're so damn complex. The
file-based underpinnings, the "plumbing" if you will, is what have caused
the design of these tools to evolve into complex behemoths. When you start
with a clean slate, you can design a clean, elegant IDE without compromise.
And that's what we have in Pharo.



marten wrote
> When we switched from VisualWorks/ENVY to C# around 2003 we were surprised
> to see how bad source code management was in the Microsoft area those days
> - and asking around in the usual community groups those days made one
> think very clear: the world is thinking in files and noone will not be
> able to force these large numbers of developers to change their behaviour.
> That's the base problem. 
> 
> But we will also not be able to change these large numbers to Smalltalkers
> anyway (mostly because it uses "." and NOT ";" or "[","]" instead of "{",
> "}" - strange, that so many younger programmers have then problems with
> this syntax - seems to come a monoculture of programmers  ).
> 
> These days we have git and svn and the quality of tools has improved very,
> very much - but limitations of the file based process are still there, BUT
> instead of changing the users: the tools available today (e.g.
> VisualStudio) do a huge work in the background to give an intelligent view
> on these files (where .NET is much better here than Java). So the users
> have their loved files and still have some intelligent repository-like
> view on the source code - they do not see the difference any more. The
> drawback of this approach is the huge-memory-demand of these tools - where
> Smalltalk's memory usage is more or less still there where is was 18 years
> ago. That's also message.





--
View this message in context: 
http://forum.world.st/Stop-Thinking-in-Terms-of-Files-tp4865614p4865800.html
Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

Re: [Pharo-users] Stop Thinking in Terms of Files

[horrido]

But these are implementation details...implementation of the base system.
/From the perspective of a programmer writing an application/, none of this
matters.

As I said earlier, the only reason why Smalltalk has to deal with files at
all is because we live in a file-based culture. And the reason our culture
is so entrenched with files is because we are too heavily invested in them,
and we aren't going to budge. *Files are about as low a storage abstraction
as you can get*, and they pre-date even Unix. Yes, files belong in the Stone
Age!



kilon.alios wrote
> That's the thing you can't take the argument further without diminishing
> the value of you argument precisely for the fact that the vm is far closer
> related to the image than it is to 0s and 1s. That tight relation is
> fundamental to the behavior and existence of the image. It defines its
> functionality, purpose and limitations.
> 
> The image itself is a file and the fact that it can store live state in a
> binary format does not make it unique or any less of a file. In my case I
> use blender files, they store the entire live state of the blender window
> including images and even Python scripts. Similar examples are countless
> out there.
> 
> So the answer to the question what makes the image file format unique is
> simply Nothing
> What's the advantage of using the image format compared to other files ?
> None
> 
> On Mon, 7 Dec 2015 at 15:14, Ben Coman <

> btc@

> > wrote:
> 
>> On Mon, Dec 7, 2015 at 3:37 PM, Dimitris Chloupis <

> kilon.alios@

> >
>> wrote:
>> > "A Smalltalk Image is your entire system. The Image includes all the
>> tools
>> > required to interact, customize and add functionality to your system,
>> so
>> > Smalltalk’s IDE is a very Integrated Development Environment."
>> >
>> >
>> > Thats not the case even for someone like me that has been working with
>> > smalltalk for only 2 years. The Image is not even the engine that
>> drives
>> > smalltalk . Thats the job of the VM that exists in a completely
>> different
>> > universe than smalltalk. It exists in the same universe than many other
>> > languages do exists and thats the C universe, the universe of the OS.
>> > Essentially what drives your system is not smalltalk is C. The
>> diffirence is
>> > that for a part of it that is high level enough, Slang is used, a
>> Hybrid
>> > language between C and Smalltalk that compiles to C. So while in the
>> image
>> > everything is , well almost everything, an object all the way down, in
>> the
>> > VM everything is C all the way down.
>>
>> To take that argument further, the VM is not even the thing driving
>> the image ;).  Essentially what drives it are the 1's and 0's of
>> machine code.  Further, what drives that are the electrons flowing
>> through the chip.  I think its fair to say that we *code* in Pharo
>> without files.  Files relate to Pharo only to the same extent that a
>> database like Oracle or Postgres can be said to use files.  That is,
>> when you do SQL queries, are you *thinking* in terms of files, even
>> though files are used by the server to store the data? Its just a
>> matter of where you draw the line of abstraction.
>>
>> cheers -ben
>>
>> > Ironically an image misses the most important tool to even generate
>> this
>> C
>> > code and thats the VMMaker that has to be installed separately. And of
>> > course there are parts of the system that are coded in pure C, like
>> some
>> > core functionalities of the VM and of course plugins and external
>> libraries
>> > that the image has to rely on make things happen.
>> >
>> > Of course the image is still fairly powerful, you can change the
>> syntax,
>> > implement high level libraries, IDE tools and much more. But its not
>> the
>> > core of the system just another essential part of it.
>> >
>> >
>> > On Mon, Dec 7, 2015 at 9:24 AM Dimitris Chloupis <

> kilon.alios@

> >
>> > wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> well, i wouldn't need or even want it in memory, so on disk is fine.
>> the
>> >>> problem is more likely management of the same. browsing the changes
>> is
>> >>> not
>> >>> really convenient.  ideally i'd like to see versions in the
>> class-browser
>> >>> and
>> >>> in the debugger, where on error i could then take a look at older
>> >>> versions for
>> >>> comparison, and switch to them to see if maybe the last change was
>> the
>> >>> cause of
>> >>> the error.
>> >>>
>> >>> greetings, martin.
>> >>>
>> >>
>> >> There are versions already for methods. So the functionality is there.
>> >>
>> >> I disagree however with you, I think that changes file was created for
>> the
>> >> precise scenarios of an image crash/ lockdown. In that case you may
>> want to
>> >> go back through the code and dont remember which method was triggered
>> or
>> >> what else was defined and created. In the case going chronologically
>> which
>> >> is how the changes file is already organised is far more useful than
>> going
>> >> method and class based.
>> >>
>> >> But I

Re: [Pharo-users] Stop Thinking in Terms of Files

[horrido]

You make a convincing argument. Files are useful.

In modern circumstances, Smalltalk has to coexist with a file-based world.
As Joachim wrote earlier, we are well-equipped to deal with files, but we do
not think in terms of files when we code our applications. We are not
obliged to use a file-based toolchain. The point of my article was to
persuade other developers that letting their obsession with file-based tools
prevent them from adopting Smalltalk is short-sighted and
counter-productive. Files have their uses, but they should look beyond files
for other software creation possibilities. Smalltalk has much to offer.

And, yes, it would be very good to have 64-bit support in Smalltalk.



kilon.alios wrote
> The devil is in the details ;)
> 
> It matters to me, I just came across the need to share data between
> multiple images. So I was pointed by the good people here to the Fuel
> library that , surprise surprise , it generates binary files that contain
> objects in their live state that helps you move and share code and data
> between images. Works well and I really like its design :)
> 
> We are not talking here about something sophisticated, we are talking here
> super basic functionality. Images sharing data and code. What we use ?
> Files. The image by itself has no functionality to even cover this super
> basic scenario because as a format is made to be self contained.
> 
> How you cant even care for such basic functionality ? Of course you will
> at
> some point. Its unavoidable.
> 
> The nice thing about files is that they have one very big advantage over
> the image. That is, specialization. When an app find a specific file ,
> just
> by looking at its extension it immediately knows the structure of the data
> and the code that it may contain.
> 
> On other hand when you have an object system like the image is, such
> specifications go outside the window meaning you have to deal with the
> fact
> and trust that those that made those images have adhered to specific
> guidelines so you can make sure that your code wont run in front of some
> very nasty surprises.
> 
> But since the image itself allow you hack so deeply as the syntax of the
> language , you can't be sure how the data and code will be presented. Sure
> they will objects, but the format does not really matter so much as the
> structure itself.
> 
> In those cases files win hands down because they tend to be far more
> restricted on how they are structured. Not because there is anything
> special to these files, apart from the fact that their authors made sure
> to
> follow the specific structure to ensure compatibility with third party
> apps.
> 
> So not only Files are not on the Stone Age but they have evolved the level
> of specification to a whole new level that have made the foundation of our
> every day lives.
> 
> Sure you could probably replace files with a new way that is more
> Smalltalk
> friendly and still retain all the advantages of files and file system but
> ,
> Smalltalk has not presented such solution to my knowledge. Hence we the
> smalltalkers we will still keep relying heavily on files for our every day
> needs until such solution is presented to us. Also with the huge wealth of
> file formats it would be a pain in the ass to replace them with a
> smalltalk
> solution.
> 
> In the mean time there are even more pressing matter that the image file
> has to attend to, which is far more stone age , to use your remark , than
> files. That is the ability to use full memory of the system and the
> ability
> to deal with large data without any large hits on performance. In short
> good support for 64 bit and big data.
> 
> 
> "But these are implementation details...implementation of the base system.
> /From the perspective of a programmer writing an application/, none of
> this
> matters.
> 
> As I said earlier, the only reason why Smalltalk has to deal with files at
> all is because we live in a file-based culture. And the reason our culture
> is so entrenched with files is because we are too heavily invested in
> them,
> and we aren't going to budge. *Files are about as low a storage
> abstraction
> as you can get*, and they pre-date even Unix. Yes, files belong in the
> Stone
> Age!"
> 
> On Mon, Dec 7, 2015 at 6:45 PM horrido <

> horrido.hobbies@

> > wrote:
> 
>> But these are implementation details...implementation of the base system.
>> /From the perspective of a programmer writing an application/, none of
>> this
>> matters.
>>
>> As I said earlier, the only reason why Smalltalk has to deal with files
>> at
>> all is because we live in a file-based culture. And the reason our
>> c