Re: [LincolnTalk] Exploring the Holy Land Problem: Friday, Dec 6 and Saturday, Dec 7

[Sara Mattes]

An odd post below-

It would seem the author is  dismissing any in this conversation who do not 
embrace the hostility to the upcoming program.
And, that no one who is not a Jew, by birth cannot understand antisemitism is 
fairly uneducated in the history of many non-Jews who stood with Jews in a 
variety of human rights endeavors, and those who gave their lives to raise 
issues about dangers to Jews (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dietrich_Bonhoeffer

No one is dismissing struggles.
That is a bizarre leap from my previous posts.

And one does not have other be a Jew to know something of Jewish history, not 
does need to have a direct connection to Isreal (I have relatives there, but 
that is neither here not there).

And then there is this comment:
>> "I am deeply grateful to those who approach these complex conversations with 
>> humility, willing to pause and reflect when others are crying out for help 
>> and understanding."
>> 


To suggest that others than those who are opposed to the upcoming lectures 
approach the debate lack empathy, humility or sensitivity is downright 
insulting!



> On Dec 4, 2024, at 12:18 PM, Forest Brown  wrote:
> 
> Thank you to everyone who has contributed thoughtfully to this conversation, 
> sharing facts and insights rather than relying on assumptions or feelings.
> 
> It’s relevant to mention that when a Black person shares their experience of 
> something they feel is racially discriminatory or offensive, it’s crucial for 
> others—especially white individuals—not to dismiss those feelings by saying, 
> “it’s not racist.” This dynamic can reflect deeper power imbalances and a 
> history where white voices have often dominated the conversation about 
> racism, even in situations they haven’t directly experienced. I am seeing 
> this happen here to Jews.
> 
> I would be deeply troubled to hear a white person dismiss the struggles of 
> Black people with phrases like "there’s enough hate to go around" or “chew 
> gum while walking.” Antisemitism is often subtle and can be overlooked. When 
> the Black Lives Matter movement began, many white people were confronted with 
> the reality of their own biases and took the initiative to educate 
> themselves. A similar approach—one of openness and humility—would be greatly 
> appreciated here, especially as Jews and allies have shared important facts 
> and perspectives that seem to have been overlooked in this discussion- and 
> sadly seem to be getting ignored as the conversation continues by those 
> defending the presentation in question.
> 
> It is painful to witness others tell Jews what is or isn’t antisemitic, 
> particularly when they do not have a direct connection to Israel or a deep 
> understanding of Jewish history. Knowing or marrying someone Jewish, or 
> disliking a specific political conflict, does not give anyone the authority 
> to define antisemitism for the Jewish community.
> 
> I am deeply grateful to those who approach these complex conversations with 
> humility, willing to pause and reflect when others are crying out for help 
> and understanding.
> 
>> On Dec 4, 2024, at 11:35 AM, Margo Fisher-Martin 
>>  wrote:
>> 
>> Sara and Lt,
>> 
>> I think that although you might be able to, many people CANNOT “walk and 
>> chew gum” at the same time - to use your analogy. 
>> I agree with Seth that Israel hate and Jew hate are very much connected, and 
>> this type of presentation will only foster antisemitism, no matter how 
>> well-meaning  attendees are. 
>> 
>> Margo 
>> 
>> 
>> On Wed, Dec 4, 2024 at 10:26 AM Dianeclimo--- via Lincoln 
>> mailto:lincoln@lincolntalk.org>> wrote:
>>> Two comments : 
>>> The bombing of Gaza and Lebanon is directed at two terrorist organizations 
>>> that lead their citizens to hate the Jewish people not only in Israel, and 
>>> with the desire to wipe all of the Jewish people off the face of the 
>>> earth.This war is not for political purposes; it is for survival.
>>> 2. Furthermore, please don’t tell me that the Palestinians have a better 
>>> claim to the land of Israel when the Jewish people have sought to return 
>>> “home” for thousands of years since the Romans destroyed the Temple in 
>>> Jerusalem and the diaspora began. 
>>>  
>>> How many Lincoln women, gays, transgenders, bi-sexuals would like to live 
>>> in Gaza, Lebanon, Iraq, Iran, Turkey, Egypt and Saudi Arabia? Israel is the 
>>> ONLY place in the middle east that upholds the values for which we fought 
>>> for in 1775.
>>>  
 On 12/04/2024 9:42 AM EST Sara Mattes >>> > wrote:
  
  
 All,
 I believe that we here in Lincoln can walk and chew gum at the same time.
  
 We can love a country and its people and despise its leadership and the 
 actions of leadership, especially when it comes to war.
 We can hold sympathies/empathy for a civilian population being devastated 
 by bombs, and want to seek ways to assist them/defend them, while we 
>>>

Re: [LincolnTalk] Exploring the Holy Land Problem: Friday, Dec 6 and Saturday, Dec 7

[Lisa Rosen]

Sara,You asked, "How can anyone say this presentation will foster antisemitism without actually attending and listing why and how?”I can list why and how.If someone has the phrase "From the river to the sea" in their bio or organization's description, then they are not interested in peace. It's equivalent to putting a swastika in your organization's logo. This phrase has been used by Hamas and other Islamist terrorist groups for years to mean a total eradication of the Jews from Israel. They showed us on October 7 how they intend to do that. Other indicators of anti-semitic propaganda include calling Israelis "colonizers" (the history dispels that notion) or - my personal favorite - "Zionists!" If you want to read a history of the word "Zionist" and how it has inexplicably evolved as some kind of insult or slur, please read Noa Tishby's "Israel: A Simple Guide To The Most Misunderstood History On Earth." It's fact-based and well-written.The reason why folks are upset about this event is because the description is so wildly offensive. The only thing missing from the actual event is Mohammed Sinwar's invitation to be keynote speaker. A more balanced event description might look something like this:“Over one year ago, Hamas slaughtered over 1200 men, women, and children and took 254 hostages. Today, 105 hostages still remain in captivity. Since Hamas effectively declared war against Israel over a year ago, Iran and other Iranian-backed militias have attacked Israel, expanding the conflict from Gaza to Lebanon, the West Bank, and Iran proper. Thousands of Palestinians have lost their lives, and there are many who criticize Netanyahu’s motives in unnecessarily prolonging the war to avoid facing criminal charges.   In the face of rising anti-semitism in the US, an incoming Trump administration appears ready to confirm Israel’s right to defend itself though the incoming administration hasn’t outlined any policies aimed at ending the conflict. To that end, we are hosting an event titled “The Hamas/Netanyahu Problem” that will bring together experts in the field to discuss strategies for ending the conflict, bringing the hostages home, and how the two sides might move towards peace.”Finally, you said, "Maybe some Isreal (sic) hate translates into Jew hate, but I would argue not all."What kind of statement is this? Do you have evidence to support your "argument"? The logical conclusion of your statement is that it's just “some” Jew hate that results from hating Israel. Why is any level of hating Jews acceptable? Can you imagine this same discussion but replacing Jews with people of color or LGBTQ+? Because I can't.Lisa RosenBedford Rd.-- Forwarded message -From: Sara Mattes Date: Wed, Dec 4, 2024 at 6:39 PMSubject: Re: [LincolnTalk] Exploring the Holy Land Problem: Friday, Dec 6 and Saturday, Dec 7To: Margo Fisher-Martin CC: Lincoln Talk The only way to know if the accusations about the speakers are correct is to listen to them.Maybe some Isreal hate translate into Jew hate, but I would argue not all.Let's just not make blanket statements, and statements that as inflammatory or more so than those the speakers are accused of making.How can anyone say this presentation will foster antisemitism without actually attending and listing why and how?There is a lot of anxiety being expressed on these threads.Much of it justified, and there exists much anxiety about much, in addition to the increase in antisemitism.Let’s not increase anxiety further.We are a sophisticated audience that can listen and discern between some actual realities/facts and propaganda.We can do this! On Dec 4, 2024, at 11:35 AM, Margo Fisher-Martin  wrote:Sara and Lt,I think that although you might be able to, many people CANNOT “walk and chew gum” at the same time - to use your analogy. I agree with Seth that Israel hate and Jew hate are very much connected, and this type of presentation will only foster antisemitism, no matter how well-meaning  attendees are. Margo On Wed, Dec 4, 2024 at 10:26 AM Dianeclimo--- via Lincoln  wrote:

  
   
 
 
   
   
Two comments : 


The bombing of Gaza and Lebanon is directed at two terrorist organizations that lead their citizens to hate the Jewish people not only in Israel, and with the desire to wipe all of the Jewish people off the face of the earth.This war is not for political purposes; it is for survival. 

   
2. Furthermore, please don’t tell me that the Palestinians have a better claim to the land of Israel when the Jewish people have sought to return “home” for thousands of years since the Romans destroyed the Temple in Jerusalem and the diaspora began. 

   
 

   
How many Lincoln women, gays, transgenders, bi-sexuals would like to live in Gaza, Lebanon, Iraq, Iran, Turkey, Egypt and Saudi Arabia? Israel is the ONLY pl

Re: [LincolnTalk] Exploring the Holy Land Problem: Friday, Dec 6 and Saturday, Dec 7

[Sara Mattes]

I would  suggest that all who are having an issue with the upcoming event 
organize an event that counters whatever is imagined will be presented here.

Bemis Hall isa available to all.

Write your own program description.
Offer speakers who might offer another view of history and the current 
situation.

The upcoming event is not advertised as a panel discussion of “opposing sides.”
It is a program to lay out what the presenters see as a necessary story of the 
current conflict.
It has a clear “bias"-it pretends to be nothing less.
There is no obligation to offer the program you would like to see.

And to the final point-there should be  no room for hate, any hate…Jews or 
others!


> On Dec 4, 2024, at 8:15 PM, Lisa Rosen  wrote:
> 
> 
>>> Sara,
>>> 
>>> You asked, "How can anyone say this presentation will foster antisemitism 
>>> without actually attending and listing why and how?”
>>> 
>>> I can list why and how.
>>> If someone has the phrase "From the river to the sea" in their bio or 
>>> organization's description, 

>>> then they are not interested in peace. It's equivalent to putting a 
>>> swastika in your organization's logo. 

>>> This phrase has been used by Hamas and other Islamist terrorist groups for 
>>> years to mean a total eradication of the Jews from Israel. 

>>> They showed us on October 7 how they intend to do that. 
>>> Other indicators of anti-semitic propaganda include calling Israelis 
>>> "colonizers" (the history dispels that notion) or - my personal favorite - 
>>> "Zionists!" 

>>> If you want to read a history of the word "Zionist" and how it has 
>>> inexplicably evolved as some kind of insult or slur, please read Noa 
>>> Tishby's "Israel: A Simple Guide To The Most Misunderstood History On 
>>> Earth." 

>>> It's fact-based and well-written.
>>> The reason why folks are upset about this event is because the description 
>>> is so wildly offensive. 

>>> The only thing missing from the actual event is Mohammed Sinwar's 
>>> invitation to be keynote speaker. 
>>> A more balanced event description might look something like this:
>>> “Over one year ago, Hamas slaughtered over 1200 men, women, and children 
>>> and took 254 hostages. 

>>> Today, 105 hostages still remain in captivity. Since Hamas effectively 
>>> declared war against Israel over a year ago, Iran and other Iranian-backed 
>>> militias have attacked Israel, expanding the conflict from Gaza to Lebanon, 
>>> the West Bank, and Iran proper. 

>>> Thousands of Palestinians have lost their lives, and there are many who 
>>> criticize Netanyahu’s motives in unnecessarily prolonging the war to avoid 
>>> facing criminal charges.  
>>>  
>>> In the face of rising anti-semitism in the US, an incoming Trump 
>>> administration appears ready to confirm Israel’s right to defend itself 
>>> though the incoming administration hasn’t outlined any policies aimed at 
>>> ending the conflict. 

>>> To that end, we are hosting an event titled “The Hamas/Netanyahu Problem” 
>>> that will bring together experts in the field to discuss strategies for 
>>> ending the conflict, bringing the hostages home, and how the two sides 
>>> might move towards peace.”
>>> Finally, you said, "Maybe some Isreal (sic) hate translates into Jew hate, 
>>> but I would argue not all."
>>> What kind of statement is this? 

>>> Do you have evidence to support your "argument"? 
>>> The logical conclusion of your statement is that it's just “some” Jew hate 
>>> that results from hating Israel. 

>>> Why is any level of hating Jews acceptable? 
>>> Can you imagine this same discussion but replacing Jews with people of 
>>> color or LGBTQ+? Because I can't.
>>> 
>>> Lisa Rosen
>>> Bedford Rd.
>>> 
>>> -- Forwarded message -
>>> From: Sara Mattes mailto:samat...@gmail.com>>
>>> Date: Wed, Dec 4, 2024 at 6:39 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [LincolnTalk] Exploring the Holy Land Problem: Friday, Dec 6 
>>> and Saturday, Dec 7
>>> To: Margo Fisher-Martin >> >
>>> CC: Lincoln Talk mailto:lincoln@lincolntalk.org>>
>>> 
>>> 
>>> The only way to know if the accusations about the speakers are correct is 
>>> to listen to them.
>>> Maybe some Isreal hate translate into Jew hate, but I would argue not all.
>>> Let's just not make blanket statements, and statements that as inflammatory 
>>> or more so than those the speakers are accused of making.
>>> 
>>> How can anyone say this presentation will foster antisemitism without 
>>> actually attending and listing why and how?
>>> 
>>> There is a lot of anxiety being expressed on these threads.
>>> Much of it justified, and there exists much anxiety about much, in addition 
>>> to the increase in antisemitism.
>>> 
>>> Let’s not increase anxiety further.
>>> 
>>> We are a sophisticated audience that can listen and discern between some 
>>> actual realities/facts and propaganda.
>>> 
>>> We can do this!
>>> 
>>> 
>>>  
>>> 
>>> 
 On Dec 4, 2024, at 11:35 AM, Margo Fisher-Marti

Re: [LincolnTalk] Keeping an open mind-

[Sara Mattes]

All,
As I have said in the past, Bemis Hall is available to ALL.
It was built to provide a venue to host lectures for the education and 
edification of the citizens of Lincoln, in addition to offer a venue for 
entertainment and dance.

The scheduler is not a gatekeeper, only a scheduler.
Any applicant who meets the conditions of the Hall for its rental are able to 
use it.
I have posted the town website multiple times to make clear who, how and when 
it can be used/rented.
Town/municipal organizations (official town bodies) have free use.
Others play a deposit and a fee.

Please educate yourselves, regarding Bemis Hall :
https://www.lincolntown.org/facilities/facility/details/Bemis-Hall-3

Again, I am confident that Lincoln can parse out  what is being presented, as 
you have done regarding a presentation you attended.
Perhaps others would have interpreted the presentation in another way.

I do have some special sensitivity to many of these issues.

I am in a family of Holocaust survivors.

I find it offensive to anyone suggest that anyone holds anger at the current 
Jewish state, accountable for horrific acts against innocent  Palestinians, is 
antisemitic.

As to divisiveness-we are often divided over politics-witness our last Town 
Meeting.

We can rise to the challenge-listen to speakers and (attempt to) have civil 
discussion.

.





> On Dec 4, 2024, at 5:29 PM, Jonathan Rapaport  wrote:
> 
> Sara, it was with an open mind that I attended one of Stephen and Barbara 
> Low’s GRALTA events at the library some years ago. The speaker was a college 
> professor and member of Jewish Voice for Peace, which is a big player in the 
> anti-Israel Boycott, Divestment and Sanction movement (BDS). (It’s hard to 
> understand how peace will be achieved through an international ban on Israeli 
> academics, artists, athletes, and hummus. But that’s a separate topic.)
> 
> The speaker gave a grossly misleading account of Israel’s modern history, as 
> is consistent with someone wanting to delegitimize the Jewish state. Then she 
> made a joke about the Holocaust. It is to my everlasting shame that I didn’t 
> speak up in the moment.
> 
> Discussions around difficult issues require nuance, balance, knowledge, and 
> empathy. There are important discussions to be had about the war and 
> suffering in Gaza, and conflict in the Middle East. But as Rosa Elena 
> eloquently inferred from the flyer, the upcoming event will serve as a 
> platform for propaganda and bias. Accusing Israel of neocolonialism, fascism, 
> and genocide are examples of Holocaust inversion.
> 
> It saddens me to see our town’s public spaces used to perpetuate  
> divisiveness. Perhaps things would be different if someone other than Barbara 
> Low were in charge of booking Bemis Hall. Lincoln deserves better.
> 
> Jonathan Rapaport

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Re: [LincolnTalk] Fwd: Exploring the Holy Land Problem: Friday, Dec 6 and Saturday, Dec 7

[Jonathan Sheffi]

It's well and good to say, "I wish Netanyahu would call elections to make
room for a different prime minister." or "I wish the Israeli government had
built a larger regional coalition before beginning its war against Hamas."
or "I wish Netanyahu had a clearer vision for post-war Gaza." or "I wish
the Israeli and American governments coordinated more effectively to bring
about an end to the war."

*That's not what Qumsiyeh advocates*. It's not hard to know his beliefs, as
his writing is extensive. He believes Israel should be abolished as a
Jewish state, and that Jews should return to the period of statelessness in
between the Roman Empire and the founding of the modern state of Israel. He
claims that Jews have no connection to the land of Israel, despite the
Bible and 3,000 years of archaeological findings.

Furthermore, despite his stated support for non-violence, he does not
condemn what happened on October 7th. Quite the opposite: he specifically
glorified the slaughter and kidnapping of Israeli civilians on October 7th
as a "ghetto uprising"

.

As Lincoln, we strive to fight hatred in all its forms. On Saturday, we
have a chance to show this man what we're made of: Skip the talk. Let
Qumsiyeh preach his bigotry to an empty room.

He has the right to speak, and nobody will take it away from him. The rest
of us have the right not to listen.
ᐧ

On Wed, Dec 4, 2024 at 9:44 AM Sara Mattes  wrote:

> All,
> I believe that we here in Lincoln can walk and chew gum at the same time.
>
> We can love a country and its people and despise its leadership and the
> actions of leadership, especially when it comes to war.
> We can hold sympathies/empathy for a civilian population being devastated
> by bombs, and want to seek ways to assist them/defend them, while we
> despise that use them for political purposes.
>
> We can hold special concern for oppressed populations who have suffered
> under despotic colonial rule for centuries.
> This country itself sought to free itself from what has become such rule,
> and we took up arms to that on April19,1775.
> We “settled” this land by pushing out, removing, going to war with those
> who had lived here before.
> We built this country on the backs of forced labor that we brought here
> against their will, then bought, sold traded that labor.
> Our wealth was built on the backs of that forced labor, all while we
> debated how best to govern ourselves.
>
> This country, while having a ideal of tolerance, has, in practice has had
> racism (and all sorts of other “isms”, antisemitism included) in its DNA.
>
> History is messy and there is enough hate to go around.
>
> Let’s take a deep breath and recognize that perhaps it might be a good
> thing to hear from those advocating for the rights of another peoples-the
> Palestinians-not Hamas or Hezbollah-the Palestinians and their long history
> of struggling to secure a homeland.
>
> We can do it.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Begin forwarded message:
>
> *From: *Jennifer Saffran 
> *Subject: **Re: [LincolnTalk] Exploring the Holy Land Problem: Friday,
> Dec 6 and Saturday, Dec 7*
> *Date: *December 3, 2024 at 7:43:52 PM EST
> *To: *Seth Rosen 
> *Cc: *Forest Brown , Lincoln Talk <
> lincoln@lincolntalk.org>
>
> Also, many Jews go back and forth between Israel and other countries, or
> have close relatives in both places. IDK any American or Canadian Jewish
> person that I can think of who does not have a relative in Israel. Having
> said that, IDK a single Jewish person who supports Netanyahu. (There may be
> someone in the US or Canada , but I don’t know them.)
>
> On Dec 3, 2024, at 5:01 PM, Seth Rosen  wrote:
>
> Paul - there are many Jews who take issue with Israel’s government
> (American and Israeli), and many others who take issue with her approach. I
> see no issue with that dialogue, and I know for a fact that it occurs in
> many and possibly every Jewish household including my own.
>
> That doesn’t change the fact that Israel hate and Jew hate are mostly the
> same thing. It’s a fairly straightforward connection, and it can appear a
> little disingenuous when folks don’t acknowledge it. People who have anger
> toward Israel also have anger toward the Jews.  Her enemies don’t simply
> wish to eliminate Israel the State… they seek to eliminate every Jew that
> lives within her borders.  The so-called colonizers and zionists to which
> the event description refers.
>
> Israel is the national homeland of the Jewish people.  It’s a majority
> Jewish country.  It’s the only country explicitly established to provide
> safety and security for Jews after literally millennia of persecution.
>
> The type of vitriolic propaganda (from the river to the sea, and the like)
> contained in this talk is the same type that calls for the elimination of

Re: [LincolnTalk] Exploring the Holy Land Problem: Friday, Dec 6 and Saturday, Dec 7

[Emily Marcus]

Well said. Thank you, Seth. Emily MarcusOn Dec 3, 2024, at 5:01 PM, Seth Rosen  wrote:Paul - there are many Jews who take issue with Israel’s government (American and Israeli), and many others who take issue with her approach. I see no issue with that dialogue, and I know for a fact that it occurs in many and possibly every Jewish household including my own. That doesn’t change the fact that Israel hate and Jew hate are mostly the same thing. It’s a fairly straightforward connection, and it can appear a little disingenuous when folks don’t acknowledge it. People who have anger toward Israel also have anger toward the Jews.  Her enemies don’t simply wish to eliminate Israel the State… they seek to eliminate every Jew that lives within her borders.  The so-called colonizers and zionists to which the event description refers. Israel is the national homeland of the Jewish people.  It’s a majority Jewish country.  It’s the only country explicitly established to provide safety and security for Jews after literally millennia of persecution. The type of vitriolic propaganda (from the river to the sea, and the like) contained in this talk is the same type that calls for the elimination of the state of Israel and all the Jews in it.  It seems like what you’re arguing is that American Jews are just very different than the Israeli Jews, and you’re just talking about “the Israeli ones.”  It’s dangerous. We are the same people.  The Jews over in Israel are the same people who fled persecution less than 100 years ago. After the war, the very few that survived (including a fortunate few in my own family) made their way there and oversaw the formation, defense, and construction of the State.The Jews here in the US (the second largest population of Jews outside of Israel) are also a relatively new phenomenon.  It wasn’t until 1880 that Jews came here in any significant number, fleeing persecution in Europe, Russia and elsewhere.  So to put a finer point on it — people historically haven’t liked us very much.  And they’ve been trying to kill us for a long time. As a result, we haven’t been able to get settled down in any one place for too long because of that fact.  We don’t get too comfortable, because history suggests we shouldn’t.  So we’re a little sensitive to hate mongering because we’ve seen how it ends up, and we know history tends to repeat itself. Seth Rosen On Dec 3, 2024, at 10:26 AM, Paul Shorb  wrote:Yes the speakers may intend to generate anger at Israel. Or at least recognize that will be a foreseeable reaction. However, you lose me when you then add “and by extension the Jewish community”. What is your basis for inferring that intent? And what do you mean by “the Jewish community”?  I note that many Jews condemn Israel’s treatment of Gaza. On Tue, Dec 3, 2024 at 11:55 AM Rosa Elena  wrote:While I agree that we should not censor good faith discussions on difficult topics, can we really say that that the intent of this specific meeting is in “good faith”? Let’s take a look at the invitation (please look at the pdf with the actual description of the event). It says things like the following:“… confirm Israel as a Jewish supremacist/apartheid state, and to further subjugate or eliminate non-Jews living in a Greater Israel.”“Zionism today (…) has emerged as an _expression_ of neocolonialism, Christian nationalism, and fascism.”Using words and phrases like supremacist, Apartheid, elimination of non-Jews, fascism - is that “good-faith criticism” or hyperbolic language meant to incense and generate anger/fear of Israel and by extension the Jewish community? I am all for a fact-based discussion with multiple perspectives, but that does not seem to be the goal of this talk.I don’t think the “real-life risk” of hate crimes due to this type of language is as low as some might like to think it is. To me, the fact that these “experts” chose to use this type of tired rethoric instead of fact-based and rational arguments diminishes their respectability, and yes, I find it dangerous.- RosaOn Mon, Dec 2, 2024 at 6:07 PM Joan Kimball  wrote:Thank you Paul. A very thoughtful, clear  response that, for me, puts these very difficult issues in perspective.  JoanOn Mon, Dec 2, 2024, 12:46 PM Paul Shorb  wrote:Rosa - One can't deny the fact that sometimes, anger at Israel seems to trigger/release/self-justify hate crimes against Jews in the United States. Similarly, hate crimes against Muslims soared after 9/11; African-Americans were lynched in New York City riots of 1863 by people opposed to the Civil War draft; etc. All of these actions targeting innocent people based on race or religion obviously are terrible. However, that real-life risk isn't sufficient reason to censor good-faith criticism of Israel for actions that arguably also are terrible - and at a scale at least thousands of times as large as the increase in hate crimes in the U.S. that might result

Re: [LincolnTalk] mooing sound last night

[Garrick Niemiec]

I live close to codman...could be a ...cow fart.  We love the farm

On Tue, Dec 3, 2024, 5:18 PM Bijoy Misra  wrote:

> Live on upper Bedford Road.  No cow mooing, occasional fox howling from
> the northern woods!
>
> Bijoy
>
> On Tue, Dec 3, 2024 at 10:58 AM Kristine Barker <
> kristinebarke...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Hi there -
>>
>> I am on Lewis Street, so I know you’re farther than me from Codman, but
>> honestly we hear the cow symphony every night so maybe they were extra
>> harmonious last night?
>>
>> Kristine
>>
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>> On Dec 3, 2024, at 10:46 AM, Stacey Sawyer-Mackie via Lincoln <
>> lincoln@lincolntalk.org> wrote:
>>
>> 
>> Did anyone else hear something that sounded like a cow mooing in the
>> middle of last night? We live at the upper part of Greenridge Lane. I was
>> wondering whether the coyotes got at the cows at Codman Farm or a cow got
>> loose.
>> --
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>>
>> --
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>>
>> --
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> .
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>
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Re: [LincolnTalk] Exploring the Holy Land Problem: Friday, Dec 6 and Saturday, Dec 7

[Jennifer Saffran]

Also, many Jews go back and forth between Israel and other countries, or have 
close relatives in both places. IDK any American or Canadian Jewish person that 
I can think of who does not have a relative in Israel. Having said that, IDK a 
single Jewish person who supports Netanyahu. (There may be someone in the US or 
Canada , but I don’t know them.)

> On Dec 3, 2024, at 5:01 PM, Seth Rosen  wrote:
> 
> Paul - there are many Jews who take issue with Israel’s government (American 
> and Israeli), and many others who take issue with her approach. I see no 
> issue with that dialogue, and I know for a fact that it occurs in many and 
> possibly every Jewish household including my own. 
> 
> That doesn’t change the fact that Israel hate and Jew hate are mostly the 
> same thing. It’s a fairly straightforward connection, and it can appear a 
> little disingenuous when folks don’t acknowledge it. People who have anger 
> toward Israel also have anger toward the Jews.  Her enemies don’t simply wish 
> to eliminate Israel the State… they seek to eliminate every Jew that lives 
> within her borders.  The so-called colonizers and zionists to which the event 
> description refers. 
> 
> Israel is the national homeland of the Jewish people.  It’s a majority Jewish 
> country.  It’s the only country explicitly established to provide safety and 
> security for Jews after literally millennia of persecution. 
> 
> The type of vitriolic propaganda (from the river to the sea, and the like) 
> contained in this talk is the same type that calls for the elimination of the 
> state of Israel and all the Jews in it.  
> 
> It seems like what you’re arguing is that American Jews are just very 
> different than the Israeli Jews, and you’re just talking about “the Israeli 
> ones.”  It’s dangerous. We are the same people.  
> 
> The Jews over in Israel are the same people who fled persecution less than 
> 100 years ago. After the war, the very few that survived (including a 
> fortunate few in my own family) made their way there and oversaw the 
> formation, defense, and construction of the State.
> 
> The Jews here in the US (the second largest population of Jews outside of 
> Israel) are also a relatively new phenomenon.  It wasn’t until 1880 that Jews 
> came here in any significant number, fleeing persecution in Europe, Russia 
> and elsewhere.  
> 
> So to put a finer point on it — people historically haven’t liked us very 
> much.  And they’ve been trying to kill us for a long time. As a result, we 
> haven’t been able to get settled down in any one place for too long because 
> of that fact.  We don’t get too comfortable, because history suggests we 
> shouldn’t.  
> 
> So we’re a little sensitive to hate mongering because we’ve seen how it ends 
> up, and we know history tends to repeat itself. 
> 
> Seth Rosen 
> 
>> On Dec 3, 2024, at 10:26 AM, Paul Shorb  wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> Yes the speakers may intend to generate anger at Israel. Or at least 
>> recognize that will be a foreseeable reaction. 
>> 
>> However, you lose me when you then add “and by extension the Jewish 
>> community”. What is your basis for inferring that intent? And what do you 
>> mean by “the Jewish community”?  I note that many Jews condemn Israel’s 
>> treatment of Gaza. 
>> 
>> On Tue, Dec 3, 2024 at 11:55 AM Rosa Elena > > wrote:
>>> While I agree that we should not censor good faith discussions on difficult 
>>> topics, can we really say that that the intent of this specific meeting is 
>>> in “good faith”? Let’s take a look at the invitation (please look at the 
>>> pdf with the actual description of the event). It says things like the 
>>> following:
>>> 
>>> “… confirm Israel as a Jewish supremacist/apartheid state, and to further 
>>> subjugate or eliminate non-Jews living in a Greater Israel.”
>>> 
>>> “Zionism today (…) has emerged as an expression of neocolonialism, 
>>> Christian nationalism, and fascism.”
>>> 
>>> Using words and phrases like supremacist, Apartheid, elimination of 
>>> non-Jews, fascism - is that “good-faith criticism” or hyperbolic language 
>>> meant to incense and generate anger/fear of Israel and by extension the 
>>> Jewish community? I am all for a fact-based discussion with multiple 
>>> perspectives, but that does not seem to be the goal of this talk.
>>> 
>>> I don’t think the “real-life risk” of hate crimes due to this type of 
>>> language is as low as some might like to think it is. To me, the fact that 
>>> these “experts” chose to use this type of tired rethoric instead of 
>>> fact-based and rational arguments diminishes their respectability, and yes, 
>>> I find it dangerous.
>>> 
>>> - Rosa
>>> 
>>> On Mon, Dec 2, 2024 at 6:07 PM Joan Kimball >> > wrote:
 Thank you Paul. A very thoughtful, clear  response that, for me, puts 
 these very difficult issues in perspective.  
 
 Joan
 
 On Mon, Dec 2, 2024, 12:46 PM Paul Shor

Re: [LincolnTalk] End of an Era for BLFF

[Jennifer Saffran]

I was a tour guide at the ICA. They no longer have this program. It is 
difficult to explain the impact, importance, and excellence of the collection 
that she gifted to the ICA. She opened minds as well as doors.

> On Dec 3, 2024, at 4:10 PM, Sara Mattes  wrote:
> 
> Many of us remember when Barbara was just another mom on the soccer field.
> 
> Lincoln women move on and up, lifting  those behind them.
> 
> Huzzah!!!
> 
>> Begin forwarded message:
>> 
>> From: Amanda Hunter - Barbara Lee Family Foundation 
>> Subject: End of an Era for BLFF
>> Date: December 3, 2024 at 1:23:15 PM EST
>> To: Sara 
>> Reply-To: Amanda Hunter - Barbara Lee Family Foundation 
>> 
>> 
>> View this email in your browser 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Dear Sara,
>> 
>> After 25 years, the Barbara Lee Family Foundation has closed.
>> 
>> Through its groundbreaking research, partnerships, and investments, the 
>> Foundation has influenced the national conversation about women’s leadership 
>> and led the effort to bring American politics and contemporary art closer to 
>> gender parity.
>> 
>> When Barbara Lee started the Foundation in 1998 to advance women’s equality 
>> and representation in the fields of American politics and contemporary art, 
>> just 63 women 
>> 
>>  were serving in the U.S. House and the Senate, compared to 152 women today 
>> .
>>  Through its groundbreaking research, partnerships, and investments, the 
>> Foundation has influenced the national conversation about women’s leadership 
>> and led the effort to bring American politics and contemporary art closer to 
>> gender parity. Today, a record 12 women serve as governor 
>> ,
>>  and almost half 
>> 
>>  of the country's lieutenant governors are women.
>> 
>> Barbara has been passionate about elevating women artists and supporting 
>> public access to art. She recognized early on that, as in politics, women 
>> face structural barriers in the art world. Barbara Lee was a long-time board 
>> member at the Institute of Contemporary Art (ICA) in Boston and presented 
>> the ICA with approximately one-third 
>> 
>>  of the works in the permanent collection—all work by women artists. The 
>> Barbara Lee Collection of Art by Women 
>> 
>>  is a cornerstone of the museum’s collection. She has also donated works to 
>> Boston’s Museum of Fine Arts. Through its grant programs, the Foundation 
>> supported dozens of museum exhibits featuring women artists across the 
>> country.
>> 
>> Over the last 25 years, the Barbara Lee Family Foundation has been committed 
>> to conducting research on the opportunities and obstacles women in politics 
>> face, including a deep dive on every governor’s race with a major party 
>> woman candidate. It has shared its findings and analysis with students, 
>> faculty, the media, and leaders and staff at all levels and regardless of 
>> party affiliation. It has worked with local and national partners on dozens 
>> of projects to better understand how voters perceive women leaders as a 
>> result of their gender and race.
>> 
>> The research will remain on the BLFF website 
>> .
>>  American University’s Women & Politics Institute will continue our 
>> successful joint project Gender on the Ballot 
>> ,
>>  which examines and contextualizes gender dynamics in politics.
>> 
>> We are proud of the work we’ve done over the years, the gains we’ve seen for 
>> women’s representation, and the growing number of organizations supporting 
>> women’s leadership.
>> 
>> Thank you to everyone who supported our efforts throughout the years. We 
>> will be cheering you on from the sidelines as you pick up the torch and 
>> continue to light the path forward for women in politics.
>> 
>> 
>> With Gratitude,
>> Amanda Hunter
>> BLPO Executive Director
>> The Barbara Lee Family Foundation has sunset and is closed as of December 
>> 2024.
>> 
>> For over two decades, the Barbara Lee Family Foundation was the only 
>> organization dedicated to specifically studying women running for executive 
>> office on both sides of the aisle. Elected officials, cand

Re: [LincolnTalk] mooing sound last night

[Bijoy Misra]

Hanscom 9 PM closing sounds are not heard back of my house.
I had not noticed the connection, but the howling was non-threatening.
I have not heard of them this year yet.
Bijoy

On Tue, Dec 3, 2024 at 5:05 PM Rich Rosenbaum  wrote:

> Another animal inspired event to add to Lincoln's eclectic entries in
> Google Maps (besides Ponyhenge): the Lincoln / Hanscom coyote singalong.
>
> On Tue, Dec 3, 2024 at 2:19 PM Anne Warner  wrote:
>
>> That howling from the Northern woods on Bedford Road is a group of
>> coyotes that appear to have a lair somewhere in the conservation land
>> behind the houses, close to 2A . They particularly like it when Taps is
>> played at Hanscom Field as it is every night at 9 PM, and they howl along
>> with it. Love it - Anne Warner
>>
>>
> --
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> Browse the archives at https://pairlist9.pair.net/mailman/private/lincoln/
> .
> Change your subscription settings at
> https://pairlist9.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/lincoln.
>
>
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[LincolnTalk] Shoulder Surgeon

[Mary Kostman via Lincoln]

Hello,

I am seeking a skilled shoulder surgeon for a consult.  Please send me a name 
if you have had good results.

Thank you.

Mary Kostman
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[LincolnTalk] Fwd: Free Zoom Lunch & Learn

[Sara Mattes]

FYI

> Begin forwarded message:
> 
> From: 
> Subject: RE: [LincolnTalk] Free Zoom Lunch & Learn
> Date: December 4, 2024 at 8:02:06 AM EST
> To: "'Sara Mattes'" 
> Reply-To: 
> 
> Hello, No, I am a Home Care company out of Arlington, MA. 
> https://cmkhomecare.net/, working with elders, solo agers and retirees.
> I have been hosting these Free Lunch & Learns for years now.  Just thought 
> the Lincoln neighbors would find it helpful.
>  
> Carmel
> Owner/Director
> CMK Home Care, LLC
> https://cmkhomecare.net/
> GrandSolutions to Care
> https://retirementbeyond.com/
> The Pursuit of Peace
>  
>  
>  
> From: Sara Mattes  
> Sent: Tuesday, December 3, 2024 3:52 PM
> To: carmelmur...@kotyan.net
> Cc: Sara Mattes ; Lincoln Talk 
> Subject: Re: [LincolnTalk] Free Zoom Lunch & Learn
>  
> Is this sponsored by the Lincoln COA?
> 
> 
>> On Dec 3, 2024, at 3:25 PM, carmelmur...@kotyan.net 
>>  wrote:
>>  
>> Hello,
>>  
>> Upcoming Free Zoom Lunch & Learn for Family Caregivers, Retirees & Solo 
>> Agers.
>>  
>> Register:   https://cmkhomecare.net/caregiver-support-project/ 
>> 
>>  
>> Date & Time:   Wednesday December 18th, 2024, @ 12noon – 1pm EST
>>  
>> Topic:An Overview of PACE
>>  
>> PACE stands for “Program of All-inclusive Care for the Elderly” – it is a 
>> provider-based, fully integrated healthcare plan for individuals who are 
>> aged 55 and over and have significant healthcare needs. PACE is the 
>> alternative to the nursing home; participants get all the care they need 
>> while staying in their communities where they feel comfortable.  PACE is a 
>> resource for caregivers, housing providers, and others seeking to support 
>> older adults to age with dignity and respect in the setting of their choosing
>>  
>> Presenter:   Jennifer Maynard Batcheller, Executive Director, 
>> MassPACE Association
>>  
>> Carmel
>> Owner/Director
>> CMK Home Care, LLC
>> https://cmkhomecare.net/ 
>> 
>> GrandSolutions to Care
>> https://retirementbeyond.com/ 
>> 
>> The Pursuit of Peace
>>  
>> -- 
>> The LincolnTalk mailing list.
>> To post, send mail to Lincoln@lincolntalk.org 
>> .
>> Browse the archives at https://pairlist9.pair.net/mailman/private/lincoln/ 
>> .
>> Change your subscription settings at 
>> https://pairlist9.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/lincoln 
>> .

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[LincolnTalk] Fwd: Exploring the Holy Land Problem: Friday, Dec 6 and Saturday, Dec 7

[Sara Mattes]

All,
I believe that we here in Lincoln can walk and chew gum at the same time.

We can love a country and its people and despise its leadership and the actions 
of leadership, especially when it comes to war.
We can hold sympathies/empathy for a civilian population being devastated by 
bombs, and want to seek ways to assist them/defend them, while we despise that 
use them for political purposes.

We can hold special concern for oppressed populations who have suffered under 
despotic colonial rule for centuries.
This country itself sought to free itself from what has become such rule, and 
we took up arms to that on April19,1775.
We “settled” this land by pushing out, removing, going to war with those who 
had lived here before.
We built this country on the backs of forced labor that we brought here against 
their will, then bought, sold traded that labor.
Our wealth was built on the backs of that forced labor, all while we debated 
how best to govern ourselves.

This country, while having a ideal of tolerance, has, in practice has had 
racism (and all sorts of other “isms”, antisemitism included) in its DNA.

History is messy and there is enough hate to go around.

Let’s take a deep breath and recognize that perhaps it might be a good thing to 
hear from those advocating for the rights of another peoples-the 
Palestinians-not Hamas or Hezbollah-the Palestinians and their long history of 
struggling to secure a homeland.

We can do it.









> Begin forwarded message:
> 
> From: Jennifer Saffran 
> Subject: Re: [LincolnTalk] Exploring the Holy Land Problem: Friday, Dec 6 and 
> Saturday, Dec 7
> Date: December 3, 2024 at 7:43:52 PM EST
> To: Seth Rosen 
> Cc: Forest Brown , Lincoln Talk 
> 
> 
> Also, many Jews go back and forth between Israel and other countries, or have 
> close relatives in both places. IDK any American or Canadian Jewish person 
> that I can think of who does not have a relative in Israel. Having said that, 
> IDK a single Jewish person who supports Netanyahu. (There may be someone in 
> the US or Canada , but I don’t know them.)
> 
>> On Dec 3, 2024, at 5:01 PM, Seth Rosen  wrote:
>> 
>> Paul - there are many Jews who take issue with Israel’s government (American 
>> and Israeli), and many others who take issue with her approach. I see no 
>> issue with that dialogue, and I know for a fact that it occurs in many and 
>> possibly every Jewish household including my own. 
>> 
>> That doesn’t change the fact that Israel hate and Jew hate are mostly the 
>> same thing. It’s a fairly straightforward connection, and it can appear a 
>> little disingenuous when folks don’t acknowledge it. People who have anger 
>> toward Israel also have anger toward the Jews.  Her enemies don’t simply 
>> wish to eliminate Israel the State… they seek to eliminate every Jew that 
>> lives within her borders.  The so-called colonizers and zionists to which 
>> the event description refers. 
>> 
>> Israel is the national homeland of the Jewish people.  It’s a majority 
>> Jewish country.  It’s the only country explicitly established to provide 
>> safety and security for Jews after literally millennia of persecution. 
>> 
>> The type of vitriolic propaganda (from the river to the sea, and the like) 
>> contained in this talk is the same type that calls for the elimination of 
>> the state of Israel and all the Jews in it.  
>> 
>> It seems like what you’re arguing is that American Jews are just very 
>> different than the Israeli Jews, and you’re just talking about “the Israeli 
>> ones.”  It’s dangerous. We are the same people.  
>> 
>> The Jews over in Israel are the same people who fled persecution less than 
>> 100 years ago. After the war, the very few that survived (including a 
>> fortunate few in my own family) made their way there and oversaw the 
>> formation, defense, and construction of the State.
>> 
>> The Jews here in the US (the second largest population of Jews outside of 
>> Israel) are also a relatively new phenomenon.  It wasn’t until 1880 that 
>> Jews came here in any significant number, fleeing persecution in Europe, 
>> Russia and elsewhere.  
>> 
>> So to put a finer point on it — people historically haven’t liked us very 
>> much.  And they’ve been trying to kill us for a long time. As a result, we 
>> haven’t been able to get settled down in any one place for too long because 
>> of that fact.  We don’t get too comfortable, because history suggests we 
>> shouldn’t.  
>> 
>> So we’re a little sensitive to hate mongering because we’ve seen how it ends 
>> up, and we know history tends to repeat itself. 
>> 
>> Seth Rosen 
>> 
>>> On Dec 3, 2024, at 10:26 AM, Paul Shorb  wrote:
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Yes the speakers may intend to generate anger at Israel. Or at least 
>>> recognize that will be a foreseeable reaction. 
>>> 
>>> However, you lose me when you then add “and by extension the Jewish 
>>> community”. What is your basis for inferring that intent? And what do you 
>>> mean by “the

[LincolnTalk] Late Night at Twisted Tree deCordova - December 6th, 5pm - 9 pm

[Christine Doherty via Lincoln]

 

The Twisted Tree at deCordova will be open late this Friday, December 6th for 
our monthly First Friday event! The festivities will run from 5:00 PM to 9:00 
PM, with the deCordova gift shop open from 5:00 PM to 7:00 PM and live holiday 
music from 6:00 PM to 8:00 PM.




This fun-filled evening will include cookie decorating, outdoor s’mores, hot 
chocolate, beer, wine and mocktails, delicious food specials, holiday shopping 
and an ugly sweater contest. 



It’s a wonderful way to kick off the holiday season, connect with friends and 
family, and celebrate the spirit of the season. We hope you can join us for 
this festive event.  All ages are welcome, and we can’t wait to see you there!  
Please visit our website for more information. 
Christine 

   
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Re: [LincolnTalk] Fwd: Exploring the Holy Land Problem: Friday, Dec 6 and Saturday, Dec 7

[Dianeclimo--- via Lincoln]

Two comments : 
1. The bombing of Gaza and Lebanon is directed at two terrorist organizations 
that lead their citizens to hate the Jewish people not only in Israel, and with 
the desire to wipe all of the Jewish people off the face of the earth.This war 
is not for political purposes; it is for survival.
2. Furthermore, please don’t tell me that the Palestinians have a better claim 
to the land of Israel when the Jewish people have sought to return “home” for 
thousands of years since the Romans destroyed the Temple in Jerusalem and the 
diaspora began. 
 
How many Lincoln women, gays, transgenders, bi-sexuals would like to live in 
Gaza, Lebanon, Iraq, Iran, Turkey, Egypt and Saudi Arabia? Israel is the ONLY 
place in the middle east that upholds the values for which we fought for in 
1775.
 

> On 12/04/2024 9:42 AM EST Sara Mattes  wrote:
>  
>  
> All,
> I believe that we here in Lincoln can walk and chew gum at the same time.
>  
> We can love a country and its people and despise its leadership and the 
> actions of leadership, especially when it comes to war.
> We can hold sympathies/empathy for a civilian population being devastated by 
> bombs, and want to seek ways to assist them/defend them, while we despise 
> that use them for political purposes.
>  
> We can hold special concern for oppressed populations who have suffered under 
> despotic colonial rule for centuries.
> This country itself sought to free itself from what has become such rule, and 
> we took up arms to that on April19,1775.
> We “settled” this land by pushing out, removing, going to war with those who 
> had lived here before.
> We built this country on the backs of forced labor that we brought here 
> against their will, then bought, sold traded that labor.
> Our wealth was built on the backs of that forced labor, all while we debated 
> how best to govern ourselves.
>  
> This country, while having a ideal of tolerance, has, in practice has had 
> racism (and all sorts of other “isms”, antisemitism included) in its DNA.
>  
> History is messy and there is enough hate to go around.
>  
> Let’s take a deep breath and recognize that perhaps it might be a good thing 
> to hear from those advocating for the rights of another peoples-the 
> Palestinians-not Hamas or Hezbollah-the Palestinians and their long history 
> of struggling to secure a homeland.
>  
> We can do it.
>  
>  
>  
>  
>  
>  
>  
> 
> 
> 
> > Begin forwarded message:
> > From: Jennifer Saffran 
> > Subject: Re: [LincolnTalk] Exploring the Holy Land Problem: Friday, Dec 6 
> > and Saturday, Dec 7
> > Date: December 3, 2024 at 7:43:52 PM EST
> > To: Seth Rosen 
> > Cc: Forest Brown , Lincoln Talk 
> > 
> > 
> > Also, many Jews go back and forth between Israel and other countries, or 
> > have close relatives in both places. IDK any American or Canadian Jewish 
> > person that I can think of who does not have a relative in Israel. Having 
> > said that, IDK a single Jewish person who supports Netanyahu. (There may be 
> > someone in the US or Canada , but I don’t know them.)
> > 
> > 
> > > On Dec 3, 2024, at 5:01 PM, Seth Rosen  wrote:
> > >  
> > > Paul - there are many Jews who take issue with Israel’s government 
> > > (American and Israeli), and many others who take issue with her approach. 
> > > I see no issue with that dialogue, and I know for a fact that it occurs 
> > > in many and possibly every Jewish household including my own. 
> > >  
> > > That doesn’t change the fact that Israel hate and Jew hate are mostly the 
> > > same thing. It’s a fairly straightforward connection, and it can appear a 
> > > little disingenuous when folks don’t acknowledge it. People who have 
> > > anger toward Israel also have anger toward the Jews.  Her enemies don’t 
> > > simply wish to eliminate Israel the State… they seek to eliminate every 
> > > Jew that lives within her borders.  The so-called colonizers and zionists 
> > > to which the event description refers. 
> > >  
> > > Israel is the national homeland of the Jewish people.  It’s a majority 
> > > Jewish country.  It’s the only country explicitly established to provide 
> > > safety and security for Jews after literally millennia of persecution. 
> > >  
> > > The type of vitriolic propaganda (from the river to the sea, and the 
> > > like) contained in this talk is the same type that calls for the 
> > > elimination of the state of Israel and all the Jews in it.  
> > >  
> > > It seems like what you’re arguing is that American Jews are just very 
> > > different than the Israeli Jews, and you’re just talking about “the 
> > > Israeli ones.”  It’s dangerous. We are the same people.  
> > >  
> > > The Jews over in Israel are the same people who fled persecution less 
> > > than 100 years ago. After the war, the very few that survived (including 
> > > a fortunate few in my own family) made their way there and oversaw the 
> > > formation, defense, and construction of the State.
> > >  
> > > The Jews here i

[LincolnTalk] Babysitter/Helper available

[Katrin Roush]

Hello, I have a personal recommendation for a caregiver who has been very 
helpful to our family over the last few years. 
Please message me if you’re interested in more information. She is experienced 
and available for childcare, light house keeping, shopping, cooking and errands.
She has been very helpful in our multi-generational home.

Katrin 
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Re: [LincolnTalk] Fwd: Exploring the Holy Land Problem: Friday, Dec 6 and Saturday, Dec 7

[Margo Fisher-Martin]

Sara and Lt,

I think that although you might be able to, many people CANNOT “walk and
chew gum” at the same time - to use your analogy.
I agree with Seth that Israel hate and Jew hate are very much connected,
and this type of presentation will only foster antisemitism, no matter how
well-meaning  attendees are.

Margo


On Wed, Dec 4, 2024 at 10:26 AM Dianeclimo--- via Lincoln <
lincoln@lincolntalk.org> wrote:

> Two comments :
>
>1. The bombing of Gaza and Lebanon is directed at two terrorist
>organizations that lead their citizens to hate the Jewish people not only
>in Israel, and with the desire to wipe all of the Jewish people off the
>face of the earth.This war is not for political purposes; it is for
>survival.
>
> 2. Furthermore, please don’t tell me that the Palestinians have a better
> claim to the land of Israel when the Jewish people have sought to return
> “home” for thousands of years since the Romans destroyed the Temple in
> Jerusalem and the diaspora began.
>
> How many Lincoln women, gays, transgenders, bi-sexuals would like to live
> in Gaza, Lebanon, Iraq, Iran, Turkey, Egypt and Saudi Arabia? Israel is the
> ONLY place in the middle east that upholds the values for which we fought
> for in 1775.
>
>
> On 12/04/2024 9:42 AM EST Sara Mattes  wrote:
>
>
> All,
> I believe that we here in Lincoln can walk and chew gum at the same time.
>
> We can love a country and its people and despise its leadership and the
> actions of leadership, especially when it comes to war.
> We can hold sympathies/empathy for a civilian population being devastated
> by bombs, and want to seek ways to assist them/defend them, while we
> despise that use them for political purposes.
>
> We can hold special concern for oppressed populations who have suffered
> under despotic colonial rule for centuries.
> This country itself sought to free itself from what has become such rule,
> and we took up arms to that on April19,1775.
> We “settled” this land by pushing out, removing, going to war with those
> who had lived here before.
> We built this country on the backs of forced labor that we brought here
> against their will, then bought, sold traded that labor.
> Our wealth was built on the backs of that forced labor, all while we
> debated how best to govern ourselves.
>
> This country, while having a ideal of tolerance, has, in practice has had
> racism (and all sorts of other “isms”, antisemitism included) in its DNA.
>
> History is messy and there is enough hate to go around.
>
> Let’s take a deep breath and recognize that perhaps it might be a good
> thing to hear from those advocating for the rights of another peoples-the
> Palestinians-not Hamas or Hezbollah-the Palestinians and their long history
> of struggling to secure a homeland.
>
> We can do it.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Begin forwarded message:
> *From: *Jennifer Saffran 
> *Subject: **Re: [LincolnTalk] Exploring the Holy Land Problem: Friday,
> Dec 6 and Saturday, Dec 7*
> *Date: *December 3, 2024 at 7:43:52 PM EST
> *To: *Seth Rosen 
> *Cc: *Forest Brown , Lincoln Talk <
> lincoln@lincolntalk.org>
>
> Also, many Jews go back and forth between Israel and other countries, or
> have close relatives in both places. IDK any American or Canadian Jewish
> person that I can think of who does not have a relative in Israel. Having
> said that, IDK a single Jewish person who supports Netanyahu. (There may be
> someone in the US or Canada , but I don’t know them.)
>
> On Dec 3, 2024, at 5:01 PM, Seth Rosen  wrote:
>
> Paul - there are many Jews who take issue with Israel’s government
> (American and Israeli), and many others who take issue with her approach. I
> see no issue with that dialogue, and I know for a fact that it occurs in
> many and possibly every Jewish household including my own.
>
> That doesn’t change the fact that Israel hate and Jew hate are mostly the
> same thing. It’s a fairly straightforward connection, and it can appear a
> little disingenuous when folks don’t acknowledge it. People who have anger
> toward Israel also have anger toward the Jews.  Her enemies don’t simply
> wish to eliminate Israel the State… they seek to eliminate every Jew that
> lives within her borders.  The so-called colonizers and zionists to which
> the event description refers.
>
> Israel is the national homeland of the Jewish people.  It’s a majority
> Jewish country.  It’s the only country explicitly established to provide
> safety and security for Jews after literally millennia of persecution.
>
> The type of vitriolic propaganda (from the river to the sea, and the like)
> contained in this talk is the same type that calls for the elimination of
> the state of Israel and all the Jews in it.
>
> It seems like what you’re arguing is that American Jews are just very
> different than the Israeli Jews, and you’re just talking about “the Israeli
> ones.”  It’s dangerous. We are the same people.
>
> The Jews over in Israel are the same people who fled persecu

Re: [LincolnTalk] Shoulder Surgeon

[Gus Browne]

A year ago, Michael Brunelli (a Lincoln Resident) successfully removed a
bone spur from my wife's right shoulder -- after the cause of her pain had
been misdiagnosed by another orthopedist.

Dr. Brunelli has, over many years, also corrected painful carpal tunnel
problems in both her wrists and also rebuilt one thumb that had developed
severe arthritic damage.

I recommend him for any problem from your shoulder down to your fingertips.

--  Gus Browne
.

On Wed, Dec 4, 2024, 8:51 AM Mary Kostman via Lincoln <
lincoln@lincolntalk.org> wrote:

> Hello,
>
> I am seeking a skilled shoulder surgeon for a consult.  Please send me a
> name if you have had good results.
>
> Thank you.
>
> Mary Kostman
> --
> The LincolnTalk mailing list.
> To post, send mail to Lincoln@lincolntalk.org.
> Browse the archives at https://pairlist9.pair.net/mailman/private/lincoln/
> .
> Change your subscription settings at
> https://pairlist9.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/lincoln.
>
>
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[LincolnTalk] State of the Town This Saturday - Final Reminder!

[Elder, Peggy]

Good afternoon,

As you might be aware, the State of the Town meeting is this Saturday.   It 
will begin at 8:00 AM in the Dining Commons with a light breakfast of grab and 
go items and coffee/tea hosted by the 8th grade girl scout troop to benefit 
some of their activities in the upcoming year.  There will also be a Town 
committees/Community organizations fair held in conjunction with the breakfast.

For more information on the meeting, follow the link below to the post card 
that details the timeline as well as a map of the campus noting where parking 
and entrances are located.

https://www.lincolntown.org/DocumentCenter/View/97954/2024-SOTT-Postcard-dp

Hope to see you there!

Peggy Elder
Administrative Assistant
to the Select Board &
Town Administrator
Town of Lincoln
T Direct 781-259-2601
D Email eld...@lincolntown.org

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[LincolnTalk] Wreaths for sale at the Stone Church

[Heather Ring via Lincoln]

Hello LincolnTalk, 
Shop local and buy your holiday wreath at the Stone Church.  Wreaths will be 
sold this afternoon (Wednesday) 3:30pm to 4:30ish.  Wreaths will also be sold 
on Friday and Sunday at the Touch of Christmas Fair.  Adorn your door, side of 
the house, barn, or wherever you choose with a beautifully decorated evergreen 
wreath this holiday season.  Cash, check, and credit card accepted.  Shop 
local! 
-Heather 


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Re: [LincolnTalk] State of the Town This Saturday - Final Reminder!

[Jennifer Glass via Lincoln]

There is also more information on the 2024 State of the Town webpage:  
https://www.lincolntown.org/1546/2024-State-of-the-Town

Looking forward to Saturday!

- Jennifer

> On Dec 4, 2024, at 12:27 PM, Elder, Peggy  wrote:
> 
> Good afternoon,
>  
> As you might be aware, the State of the Town meeting is this Saturday.   It 
> will begin at 8:00 AM in the Dining Commons with a light breakfast of grab 
> and go items and coffee/tea hosted by the 8th grade girl scout troop to 
> benefit some of their activities in the upcoming year.  There will also be a 
> Town committees/Community organizations fair held in conjunction with the 
> breakfast.
>  
> For more information on the meeting, follow the link below to the post card 
> that details the timeline as well as a map of the campus noting where parking 
> and entrances are located.
>  
> https://www.lincolntown.org/DocumentCenter/View/97954/2024-SOTT-Postcard-dp
>  
> Hope to see you there!
>  
> Peggy Elder
> Administrative Assistant
> to the Select Board &
> Town Administrator
> Town of Lincoln
> T Direct 781-259-2601
> D Email eld...@lincolntown.org 
>  
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[LincolnTalk] gas furnace question

[Steve Hirsch via Lincoln]

To anyone who's knowledgeable (or at least thinks themself to be 
knowledgeable🙂) about gas furnaces, and specifically inducer motors in gas 
furnaces, and feels like having an engineering-ish discussion, please reply 
privately.Basically, I may have a problem with the recently replaced inducer 
motor in my gas furnace and I'm looking for opinions on whether it's 
potentially a bad motor, or "they just tend to do that", and I'm of the 
impression that there are some smart minds here🧠🤔
Thanks,Steve Hirsch-- 
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[LincolnTalk] This week at The Exchange: Wreaths & Lincoln Gifts

[Lis Herbert]

Hi LT,

The Exchange is stocked with Lincoln books, pottery, cards, and more --
stop by to see what's new. At the store, the last of special holiday gifts
are arriving this week, and by the weekend the little tree will be lit and
full of ornaments. There are so many beautiful, well-made things for
stockings, to bring to a party, to pop into the mail, as well as just about
all of the china and glassware you could hope for to set the table.

And Annie Pease is making beautiful wreaths for the holidays! Winter greens
and branches, strung with velvet ribbon and wire for hanging, and available
for pre-order on her website, with store pickup here at The Little General
on Saturday (1-4) and Sunday (10-1). You can place an order here:
https://www.fairislefloral.co/shop/p/pre-order-winter-wreath

Hours through December 21 are Tuesday-Saturday, 11-6, and on the 23rd and
24th from 10-1. See you soon!

Lis
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[LincolnTalk] Touch of Christmas Fair this Sunday 12 - 3

[Nancy Fleming]

Touch of Christmas Fair
SUNDAY, December 8th
12:00- 3:00 PM
First Parish in Lincoln
 
Come One, Come All to the Annual Touch of Christmas Fair this SUNDAY from 12 – 
3!
 
For nearly 50 years, the First Parish has celebrated the holidays with an 
old-fashioned Christmas Fair, and luncheon. A wonderful tradition bringing 
community together for an afternoon of holiday cheer! Some highlights include:
 
·  Lunch served at 11:30 while you await the doors to open to the Fair
·  Homemade holiday crafts including beautiful sweater mittens for all 
sizes, gnome houses and more
·  Evergreen wreaths lovingly decorated with natural materials, berries and 
pinecones
·  Beautiful handmade centerpieces from greens and berries, to include 
candles
·  Jewelry from every decade, antiques and collectible table
·  Children Shopping Room with gifts (wrapped on the spot) for the 
youngsters to purchase for their family members
·  Famous Re-gifting Table with something for everyone
·  Baked Goods table stocked with homemade pies, cakes, cookies, granola 
and more
·  And, SANTA will arrive at 1:00! 
 
Come join your neighbors for lunch and holiday shopping this Sunday! Hope to 
see you there. 
 
Questions? Call Tucker Smith – 978-760-2321
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Re: [LincolnTalk] Exploring the Holy Land Problem: Friday, Dec 6 and Saturday, Dec 7

[Forest Brown]

Thank you to everyone who has contributed thoughtfully to this conversation, 
sharing facts and insights rather than relying on assumptions or feelings.

It’s relevant to mention that when a Black person shares their experience of 
something they feel is racially discriminatory or offensive, it’s crucial for 
others—especially white individuals—not to dismiss those feelings by saying, 
“it’s not racist.” This dynamic can reflect deeper power imbalances and a 
history where white voices have often dominated the conversation about racism, 
even in situations they haven’t directly experienced. I am seeing this happen 
here to Jews.

I would be deeply troubled to hear a white person dismiss the struggles of 
Black people with phrases like "there’s enough hate to go around" or “chew gum 
while walking.” Antisemitism is often subtle and can be overlooked. When the 
Black Lives Matter movement began, many white people were confronted with the 
reality of their own biases and took the initiative to educate themselves. A 
similar approach—one of openness and humility—would be greatly appreciated 
here, especially as Jews and allies have shared important facts and 
perspectives that seem to have been overlooked in this discussion- and sadly 
seem to be getting ignored as the conversation continues by those defending the 
presentation in question.

It is painful to witness others tell Jews what is or isn’t antisemitic, 
particularly when they do not have a direct connection to Israel or a deep 
understanding of Jewish history. Knowing or marrying someone Jewish, or 
disliking a specific political conflict, does not give anyone the authority to 
define antisemitism for the Jewish community.

I am deeply grateful to those who approach these complex conversations with 
humility, willing to pause and reflect when others are crying out for help and 
understanding.

> On Dec 4, 2024, at 11:35 AM, Margo Fisher-Martin 
>  wrote:
> 
> Sara and Lt,
> 
> I think that although you might be able to, many people CANNOT “walk and chew 
> gum” at the same time - to use your analogy. 
> I agree with Seth that Israel hate and Jew hate are very much connected, and 
> this type of presentation will only foster antisemitism, no matter how 
> well-meaning  attendees are. 
> 
> Margo 
> 
> 
> On Wed, Dec 4, 2024 at 10:26 AM Dianeclimo--- via Lincoln 
> mailto:lincoln@lincolntalk.org>> wrote:
>> Two comments : 
>> The bombing of Gaza and Lebanon is directed at two terrorist organizations 
>> that lead their citizens to hate the Jewish people not only in Israel, and 
>> with the desire to wipe all of the Jewish people off the face of the 
>> earth.This war is not for political purposes; it is for survival.
>> 2. Furthermore, please don’t tell me that the Palestinians have a better 
>> claim to the land of Israel when the Jewish people have sought to return 
>> “home” for thousands of years since the Romans destroyed the Temple in 
>> Jerusalem and the diaspora began. 
>>  
>> How many Lincoln women, gays, transgenders, bi-sexuals would like to live in 
>> Gaza, Lebanon, Iraq, Iran, Turkey, Egypt and Saudi Arabia? Israel is the 
>> ONLY place in the middle east that upholds the values for which we fought 
>> for in 1775.
>>  
>>> On 12/04/2024 9:42 AM EST Sara Mattes >> > wrote:
>>>  
>>>  
>>> All,
>>> I believe that we here in Lincoln can walk and chew gum at the same time.
>>>  
>>> We can love a country and its people and despise its leadership and the 
>>> actions of leadership, especially when it comes to war.
>>> We can hold sympathies/empathy for a civilian population being devastated 
>>> by bombs, and want to seek ways to assist them/defend them, while we 
>>> despise that use them for political purposes.
>>>  
>>> We can hold special concern for oppressed populations who have suffered 
>>> under despotic colonial rule for centuries.
>>> This country itself sought to free itself from what has become such rule, 
>>> and we took up arms to that on April19,1775.
>>> We “settled” this land by pushing out, removing, going to war with those 
>>> who had lived here before.
>>> We built this country on the backs of forced labor that we brought here 
>>> against their will, then bought, sold traded that labor.
>>> Our wealth was built on the backs of that forced labor, all while we 
>>> debated how best to govern ourselves.
>>>  
>>> This country, while having a ideal of tolerance, has, in practice has had 
>>> racism (and all sorts of other “isms”, antisemitism included) in its DNA.
>>>  
>>> History is messy and there is enough hate to go around.
>>>  
>>> Let’s take a deep breath and recognize that perhaps it might be a good 
>>> thing to hear from those advocating for the rights of another peoples-the 
>>> Palestinians-not Hamas or Hezbollah-the Palestinians and their long history 
>>> of struggling to secure a homeland.
>>>  
>>> We can do it.
>>>  
>>>  
>>>  
>>>  
>>>  
>>>  
>>>  
>>> 
>>> 
 Begin forw

Re: [LincolnTalk] Shoulder Surgeon

[June L Matthews]

I had shoulder replacement surgery a few years ago.  Dr. Glen Ross was 
recommended by a friend (also a physician).  He did an excellent job.  He is 
with Boston Orthopedics and Spine.  

June Matthews


-Original Message-
From: Lincoln  On Behalf Of Mary Kostman via 
Lincoln
Sent: Wednesday, December 4, 2024 8:51 AM
To: Lincoln Talk 
Subject: [LincolnTalk] Shoulder Surgeon

Hello,

I am seeking a skilled shoulder surgeon for a consult.  Please send me a name 
if you have had good results.

Thank you.

Mary Kostman
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Re: [LincolnTalk] Shoulder Surgeon

[Carol Bickford via Lincoln]

Dr Alice Hunter at LC Burlington and Lexington BILH on Hayden ave.2 rotator cuff tears repairs, carpal tunnel and various tendon/buritis issues in shoulders elbow and wrists.  A great surgeon and great bedside manner too.Carol Bickford On Dec 4, 2024, at 12:10 PM, Gus Browne  wrote:A year ago, Michael Brunelli (a Lincoln Resident) successfully removed a bone spur from my wife's right shoulder -- after the cause of her pain had been misdiagnosed by another orthopedist.Dr. Brunelli has, over many years, also corrected painful carpal tunnel problems in both her wrists and also rebuilt one thumb that had developed severe arthritic damage.I recommend him for any problem from your shoulder down to your fingertips.--  Gus Browne.  On Wed, Dec 4, 2024, 8:51 AM Mary Kostman via Lincoln  wrote:Hello,

I am seeking a skilled shoulder surgeon for a consult.  Please send me a name if you have had good results.

Thank you.

Mary Kostman
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Re: [LincolnTalk] Exploring the Holy Land Problem: Friday, Dec 6 and Saturday, Dec 7

[Sara Mattes]

The only way to know if the accusations about the speakers are correct is to 
listen to them.
Maybe some Isreal hate translate into Jew hate, but I would argue not all.
Let's just not make blanket statements, and statements that as inflammatory or 
more so than those the speakers are accused of making.

How can anyone say this presentation will foster antisemitism without actually 
attending and listing why and how?

There is a lot of anxiety being expressed on these threads.
Much of it justified, and there exists much anxiety about much, in addition to 
the increase in antisemitism.

Let’s not increase anxiety further.

We are a sophisticated audience that can listen and discern between some actual 
realities/facts and propaganda.

We can do this!


 

> On Dec 4, 2024, at 11:35 AM, Margo Fisher-Martin 
>  wrote:
> 
> Sara and Lt,
> 
> I think that although you might be able to, many people CANNOT “walk and chew 
> gum” at the same time - to use your analogy. 
> I agree with Seth that Israel hate and Jew hate are very much connected, and 
> this type of presentation will only foster antisemitism, no matter how 
> well-meaning  attendees are. 
> 
> Margo 
> 
> 
> On Wed, Dec 4, 2024 at 10:26 AM Dianeclimo--- via Lincoln 
> mailto:lincoln@lincolntalk.org>> wrote:
>> Two comments : 
>> The bombing of Gaza and Lebanon is directed at two terrorist organizations 
>> that lead their citizens to hate the Jewish people not only in Israel, and 
>> with the desire to wipe all of the Jewish people off the face of the 
>> earth.This war is not for political purposes; it is for survival.
>> 2. Furthermore, please don’t tell me that the Palestinians have a better 
>> claim to the land of Israel when the Jewish people have sought to return 
>> “home” for thousands of years since the Romans destroyed the Temple in 
>> Jerusalem and the diaspora began. 
>>  
>> How many Lincoln women, gays, transgenders, bi-sexuals would like to live in 
>> Gaza, Lebanon, Iraq, Iran, Turkey, Egypt and Saudi Arabia? Israel is the 
>> ONLY place in the middle east that upholds the values for which we fought 
>> for in 1775.
>>  
>>> On 12/04/2024 9:42 AM EST Sara Mattes >> > wrote:
>>>  
>>>  
>>> All,
>>> I believe that we here in Lincoln can walk and chew gum at the same time.
>>>  
>>> We can love a country and its people and despise its leadership and the 
>>> actions of leadership, especially when it comes to war.
>>> We can hold sympathies/empathy for a civilian population being devastated 
>>> by bombs, and want to seek ways to assist them/defend them, while we 
>>> despise that use them for political purposes.
>>>  
>>> We can hold special concern for oppressed populations who have suffered 
>>> under despotic colonial rule for centuries.
>>> This country itself sought to free itself from what has become such rule, 
>>> and we took up arms to that on April19,1775.
>>> We “settled” this land by pushing out, removing, going to war with those 
>>> who had lived here before.
>>> We built this country on the backs of forced labor that we brought here 
>>> against their will, then bought, sold traded that labor.
>>> Our wealth was built on the backs of that forced labor, all while we 
>>> debated how best to govern ourselves.
>>>  
>>> This country, while having a ideal of tolerance, has, in practice has had 
>>> racism (and all sorts of other “isms”, antisemitism included) in its DNA.
>>>  
>>> History is messy and there is enough hate to go around.
>>>  
>>> Let’s take a deep breath and recognize that perhaps it might be a good 
>>> thing to hear from those advocating for the rights of another peoples-the 
>>> Palestinians-not Hamas or Hezbollah-the Palestinians and their long history 
>>> of struggling to secure a homeland.
>>>  
>>> We can do it.
>>>  
>>>  
>>>  
>>>  
>>>  
>>>  
>>>  
>>> 
>>> 
 Begin forwarded message:
 From: Jennifer Saffran >>> >
 Subject: Re: [LincolnTalk] Exploring the Holy Land Problem: Friday, Dec 6 
 and Saturday, Dec 7
 Date: December 3, 2024 at 7:43:52 PM EST
 To: Seth Rosen mailto:rosen...@gmail.com>>
 Cc: Forest Brown >>> >, Lincoln Talk >>> >
 
 Also, many Jews go back and forth between Israel and other countries, or 
 have close relatives in both places. IDK any American or Canadian Jewish 
 person that I can think of who does not have a relative in Israel. Having 
 said that, IDK a single Jewish person who supports Netanyahu. (There may 
 be someone in the US or Canada , but I don’t know them.)
 
> On Dec 3, 2024, at 5:01 PM, Seth Rosen  > wrote:
>  
> Paul - there are many Jews who take issue with Israel’s government 
> (American and Israeli), and many others who take issue with her approach. 
> I see no issue with that dialogue, and I know for a fact that it occurs 

Re: [LincolnTalk] Shoulder Surgeon

[Scott Clary]

Hello Mary,

Dr Mark Price out of Mass general is an amazingly skilled shoulder surgeon.
He does procedures that no one else in the world does. He's the lead
physician for the Patriots and I believe the Red Sox and consults the
Bruins. His bedside manner is humble and sincere. He started out as an
English major at Northwestern and ended up with a PHD in biomechanics from
MIT and then a medical degree from Harvard. Good luck!

Kind Regards,

Scott Clary
617-968-5769

Sent from a mobile device - please excuse typos and errors

On Wed, Dec 4, 2024, 8:51 AM Mary Kostman via Lincoln <
lincoln@lincolntalk.org> wrote:

> Hello,
>
> I am seeking a skilled shoulder surgeon for a consult.  Please send me a
> name if you have had good results.
>
> Thank you.
>
> Mary Kostman
> --
> The LincolnTalk mailing list.
> To post, send mail to Lincoln@lincolntalk.org.
> Browse the archives at https://pairlist9.pair.net/mailman/private/lincoln/
> .
> Change your subscription settings at
> https://pairlist9.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/lincoln.
>
>
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[LincolnTalk] Calkins lawsuit

[ٍSarah Postlethwait]

New Lawsuit filed against Lucy Calkins, Irene Fountas, and Gay Su Pinnell
in MA for their low quality curriculum they sold to MA schools, including
Lincoln Public Schools.

Despite pleas from Lincoln parents to remove the Lucy Calkins curriculum
from LPS, also known as “Units of Study”, this subpar curriculum is still
being used to teach our children.

The good news is- we can all join the class action lawsuit soon!


https://www.edweek.org/teaching-learning/parents-sue-lucy-calkins-fountas-and-pinnell-and-others-over-reading-curricula/2024/12
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[LincolnTalk] Compostor

[Tim Barclay]

TAKEN, compositor
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Re: [LincolnTalk] Keeping an open mind-

[Joan Kimball]

Thank you, Sara.  Civility helps us hear each other.

Joan

On Wed, Dec 4, 2024, 7:39 PM Sara Mattes  wrote:

> All,
> As I have said in the past, Bemis Hall is available to *ALL.*
> It was built to provide a venue to host lectures for the education and
> edification of the citizens of Lincoln, in addition to offer a venue for
> entertainment and dance.
>
> The scheduler is not a gatekeeper, only a scheduler.
> Any applicant who meets the conditions of the Hall for its rental are able
> to use it.
> I have posted the town website multiple times to make clear who, how and
> when it can be used/rented.
> Town/municipal organizations (official town bodies) have free use.
> Others play a deposit and a fee.
>
> Please educate yourselves, regarding Bemis Hall :
> Bemis Hall
> 
> lincolntown.org
> 
> [image: favicon.ico]
> 
> 
>
> Again, I am confident that Lincoln can parse out  what is being presented,
> as you have done regarding a presentation you attended.
> Perhaps others would have interpreted the presentation in another way.
>
> I do have some special sensitivity to many of these issues.
>
> I am in a family of Holocaust survivors.
>
> I find it offensive to anyone suggest that anyone holds anger at the
> current Jewish state, accountable for horrific acts against innocent
>  Palestinians, is antisemitic.
>
> As to divisiveness-we are often divided over politics-witness our last
> Town Meeting.
>
> We can rise to the challenge-listen to speakers and (attempt to) have
> civil discussion.
>
> .
>
>
>
>
>
> On Dec 4, 2024, at 5:29 PM, Jonathan Rapaport 
> wrote:
>
> Sara, it was with an open mind that I attended one of Stephen and Barbara
> Low’s GRALTA events at the library some years ago. The speaker was a
> college professor and member of Jewish Voice for Peace, which is a big
> player in the anti-Israel Boycott, Divestment and Sanction movement (BDS).
> (It’s hard to understand how peace will be achieved through an
> international ban on Israeli academics, artists, athletes, and hummus. But
> that’s a separate topic.)
>
> The speaker gave a grossly misleading account of Israel’s modern history,
> as is consistent with someone wanting to delegitimize the Jewish state.
> Then she made a joke about the Holocaust. It is to my everlasting shame
> that I didn’t speak up in the moment.
>
> Discussions around difficult issues require nuance, balance, knowledge,
> and empathy. There are important discussions to be had about the war and
> suffering in Gaza, and conflict in the Middle East. But as Rosa Elena
> eloquently inferred from the flyer, the upcoming event will serve as a
> platform for propaganda and bias. Accusing Israel of neocolonialism,
> fascism, and genocide are examples of Holocaust inversion.
>
> It saddens me to see our town’s public spaces used to perpetuate
>  divisiveness. Perhaps things would be different if someone other than
> Barbara Low were in charge of booking Bemis Hall. Lincoln deserves better.
>
> Jonathan Rapaport
>
>
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Re: [LincolnTalk] Exploring the Holy Land Problem: Friday, Dec 6 and Saturday, Dec 7

[Laura Crosby via Lincoln]

Bravo to you, Lisa!Sent from my iPhoneOn Dec 4, 2024, at 8:15 PM, Lisa Rosen  wrote:Sara,You asked, "How can anyone say this presentation will foster antisemitism without actually attending and listing why and how?”I can list why and how.If someone has the phrase "From the river to the sea" in their bio or organization's description, then they are not interested in peace. It's equivalent to putting a swastika in your organization's logo. This phrase has been used by Hamas and other Islamist terrorist groups for years to mean a total eradication of the Jews from Israel. They showed us on October 7 how they intend to do that. Other indicators of anti-semitic propaganda include calling Israelis "colonizers" (the history dispels that notion) or - my personal favorite - "Zionists!" If you want to read a history of the word "Zionist" and how it has inexplicably evolved as some kind of insult or slur, please read Noa Tishby's "Israel: A Simple Guide To The Most Misunderstood History On Earth." It's fact-based and well-written.The reason why folks are upset about this event is because the description is so wildly offensive. The only thing missing from the actual event is Mohammed Sinwar's invitation to be keynote speaker. A more balanced event description might look something like this:“Over one year ago, Hamas slaughtered over 1200 men, women, and children and took 254 hostages. Today, 105 hostages still remain in captivity. Since Hamas effectively declared war against Israel over a year ago, Iran and other Iranian-backed militias have attacked Israel, expanding the conflict from Gaza to Lebanon, the West Bank, and Iran proper. Thousands of Palestinians have lost their lives, and there are many who criticize Netanyahu’s motives in unnecessarily prolonging the war to avoid facing criminal charges.   In the face of rising anti-semitism in the US, an incoming Trump administration appears ready to confirm Israel’s right to defend itself though the incoming administration hasn’t outlined any policies aimed at ending the conflict. To that end, we are hosting an event titled “The Hamas/Netanyahu Problem” that will bring together experts in the field to discuss strategies for ending the conflict, bringing the hostages home, and how the two sides might move towards peace.”Finally, you said, "Maybe some Isreal (sic) hate translates into Jew hate, but I would argue not all."What kind of statement is this? Do you have evidence to support your "argument"? The logical conclusion of your statement is that it's just “some” Jew hate that results from hating Israel. Why is any level of hating Jews acceptable? Can you imagine this same discussion but replacing Jews with people of color or LGBTQ+? Because I can't.Lisa RosenBedford Rd.-- Forwarded message -From: Sara Mattes Date: Wed, Dec 4, 2024 at 6:39 PMSubject: Re: [LincolnTalk] Exploring the Holy Land Problem: Friday, Dec 6 and Saturday, Dec 7To: Margo Fisher-Martin CC: Lincoln Talk The only way to know if the accusations about the speakers are correct is to listen to them.Maybe some Isreal hate translate into Jew hate, but I would argue not all.Let's just not make blanket statements, and statements that as inflammatory or more so than those the speakers are accused of making.How can anyone say this presentation will foster antisemitism without actually attending and listing why and how?There is a lot of anxiety being expressed on these threads.Much of it justified, and there exists much anxiety about much, in addition to the increase in antisemitism.Let’s not increase anxiety further.We are a sophisticated audience that can listen and discern between some actual realities/facts and propaganda.We can do this! On Dec 4, 2024, at 11:35 AM, Margo Fisher-Martin  wrote:Sara and Lt,I think that although you might be able to, many people CANNOT “walk and chew gum” at the same time - to use your analogy. I agree with Seth that Israel hate and Jew hate are very much connected, and this type of presentation will only foster antisemitism, no matter how well-meaning  attendees are. Margo On Wed, Dec 4, 2024 at 10:26 AM Dianeclimo--- via Lincoln  wrote:

  
   
 
 
   
   
Two comments : 


The bombing of Gaza and Lebanon is directed at two terrorist organizations that lead their citizens to hate the Jewish people not only in Israel, and with the desire to wipe all of the Jewish people off the face of the earth.This war is not for political purposes; it is for survival. 

   
2. Furthermore, please don’t tell me that the Palestinians have a better claim to the land of Israel when the Jewish people have sought to return “home” for thousands of years since the Romans destroyed the Temple in Jerusalem and the diaspora began. 

   
 

   
How many Lincoln women, gays, transgenders, bi-sexuals would like to liv