Re: Moderated posts?

[lee]

Tanstaafl  writes:

> On 10/17/2014 9:24 PM, lee  wrote:
>> You do not accept messages you can not deliver unless you are relaying
>> them.
>
> Absolutely wrong, this rule fully applies to relays just as it does
> final destination servers.

I'm not sure what you mean.  How will you know whether messages to a
particular destination address can be delivered before sending a message
to that address so that you can decide whether to accept a message
you're relaying to that address?


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Re: [exim4] Testing and making sense of smtp output

[Joe]

On Sun, 19 Oct 2014 16:37:13 +0100
Brian  wrote:


> 
> primary_hostname is used as the HELO but Debian doesn't set it. Also,
> the exim maintainers aren't very keen on your using it in a
> configuration file.
> 
> 

Many mail servers have a public IP address, and it makes sense to use
the machine's own hostname in the HELO. If the mail server is behind
NAT, it is not reachable by name, and doesn't even have an inherent
FQDN, so there is no point in using its real hostname. Indeed, unless
a public A record is created to match such a HELO, many mail servers
will refuse mail from the machine.

A made-up hostname which resolves to the public-IP side of the NAT is
then appropriate for the HELO, and will clearly not be found anywhere
in the mail server's system files. Also, if a server handles multiple
domains, it may be felt appropriate to use a separate HELO for each
domain.

-- 
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Re: Stuck in update

[Darac Marjal]

On Sun, Oct 19, 2014 at 12:21:58PM -0400, Alan Greenberger wrote:
> This morning I tried to update a wheezy recently upgraded from squeeze.
> It didn't work and I am stuck.
> 
> # aptitude update
> # aptitude
>  g
>  u

You update aptitude twice?

>  These packages could be upgraded, but they have been kept in their
>  current state to avoid breaking dependencies.

Which packages?

>  q
>  b (just beeps)

'b' searches for packages which are broken, but you've just been told
that packages were held specifically to stop that happening.

> 
> There were some error messages about lilo

What were the error messages?

> # dpkg -l lilo
>  iF  lilo   1:23.2-4 amd64
> # aptitude
>  /lilo
>  C lilo 1:23.2-4   1:23.2-4 
> 
> # dpkg-reconfigure lilo
>  /usr/sbin/dpkg-reconfigure: lilo is broken or not fully installed

OK. But why is lilo broken?

> 
> # aptitude install debsums
>debsums libfile-fnmatch-perl{a} 
> The following partially installed packages will be configured:
>   lilo
>  ...
>  Errors were encountered while processing:
>  lilo
> 
> # debsums lilo
>  debsums: package lilo is not installed

debsums didn't install because lilo failed to configure. 

> 
> # aptitude reinstall lilo
> The following packages will be REINSTALLED:
>   lilo 
> 0 packages upgraded, 0 newly installed, 1 reinstalled, 0 to remove and 50
>  not upgraded.
> Need to get 0 B of archives. After unpacking 0 B will be used.
> E: Internal Error, No file name for lilo:amd64

OK. Finally, we get to an actual error message. Apt is trying to find a
package for lilo:amd64, but can't for some reason.

Please let us know the output of:

 $ cat /etc/apt/sources.list{,.d/*.list}
 $ apt-cache policy lilo
 $ dpkg --audit

Thanks.



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Re: Good news on claws-mail

[berenger . morel]

Le 18.10.2014 22:44, John Hasler a écrit :

Steve Litt writes:

The process, the questions it asked, and the automatic collection of
my computer's configuration made submitting the bug trivial. *Every*
project should have one of these.


Unfortunately as soon as you mention email their ears close up.


The point is that, Debian is a big project, with lot of people working 
on it, not always programmers (I suppose). At least, I guess it have to 
be like this.
But, if, for example, I take i3, there are far less people working on 
it, essentially programmers. They do not necessarily have time to do the 
triaging of bugs, and so they ask the users to post on a bug tracker. I 
understand that it's painful for a user to register here and there, but 
I also understand that programmers do not necessarily have time to 
triage mailed bug reports into a correct DB, with lot of emails just 
saying "hey, it does not work!". The web interfaces (like redmine) 
usually force the users to fill some informations about the problem.
I'm a programmer, so I can assure you that that kind of... hum... bug 
reports, happen frequently, forcing programmers to buy a tarot and to 
learn to use it.
So, I can see how the Debian's idea of reportbug is great, especially 
if bugs are reported upstream by maintainers with the infos needed by 
programmers to focus on actually fixing the bug. That's an important 
job, but it's not really something people will usually notice.



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Re: Avoid reboot by loading initramfs again

[Darac Marjal]

On Sun, Oct 19, 2014 at 10:36:23PM +0200, Jimmy Thrasibule wrote:
> Hello,
> 
> I wonder if one can avoid a complete reboot of the system just by
> halting the operating system but right after load the initramfs and
> restart from there?

I don't think you can quite do what you're thinking, but there are other
ways around it.

> 
> Basically when we reboot, we only want to reset the operating system
> state but rarely to do all the hardware checks again. And for a kernel
> update, there is kexec.

If you've got as far as halting  the system, then kexec or a full reboot
are your only options. This is due to the fact that you've unmounted all
the block  devices, probably  powered them  off and so  on. I  guess you
could try  jumping back into an  initramfs (that you loaded  into memory
before shutdown), but you might as  well reset the kernel at that point.
It'll only take a few seconds more.

The other alternative,  for a "lighter" reboot is to  drop to runlevel 1
(or single-user.target, in  systemd's parlance). This will  stop all the
mutli-user services (X, httpd, sshd and so  on) and bring you to a point
where only  a minimal number of  services are running (file  systems are
mounted,  the  local  console  is  active and  so  on).  You  could  use
"checkrestart" (from the debian-goodies package) to check what remaining
services are using outdated libraries and restart them manually. At this
point, you can come back up to runlevel 2-5 (systemd: multi-user.target)
in order to bring the system back up to full capacity.

I think  it depends  on what  you're trying to  achieve and  what you're
trying to avoid.


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Re: GR proposed re: choice of init systems

[Rusi Mody]

On Sunday, October 19, 2014 11:50:02 PM UTC+5:30, Jimmy Johnson wrote:
> Slavko wrote:
> > Ahoj,
> > napísal:
> >> On Fri, Oct 17, 2014 at 07:02:12PM +0100, Lisi Reisz wrote:
> >>> On Friday 17 October 2014 18:30:31 Andre N Batista wrote:
>  I cannot believe some people still
>  thinks [snip] that we should simply stick with
>  the TC's authority regardless what.
> >>> Surely no-one has ever said that??  References if someone has?
> >> Sven Joachim.
> >> "Because the people who do the work get to make the decisions,
> >> that's the way Debian works."
> > All testing's users which are doing testing of the software and are
> > reporting the bugs are working on, despite if they are in some team or
> > not. But now it seems, that the regular users are on the last position
> > of the interest and particular part of the Social contract are only
> > words.
> > This is the reason why i suspend all my contributions for now. I know,
> > that the Debian was here without me and will be here without me too, but
> > i see no enough interest to contribute now. First i was in doubts: is
> > this only my wounded ego? But by last months doings i lost any doubts.

> ..the small man stands defiantly in front of the moving tank waving his 
> flag of freedom..I don't blame you for moving out of the way, maybe some 
> pieces will be left and you will still be here to help put them pieces 
> back together again, or something new and better will come along, have 
> faith my friend.

It seems that 
https://lists.debian.org/debian-vote/
is down right now.

This case seems to be generating enough interest for it to register as
a DOS (attack) on the servers!?! Heh!


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Re: Good news on claws-mail

[berenger . morel]

Le 19.10.2014 17:03, Steve Litt a écrit :

Rapid Application Development, Army Surplus
style, which of course makes me a pariah in the eyes of "real"
programmers. Life's tough.


Real programmers don't need RAD, they only use butterflies (1).

About RAD and interpreted languages, I do not really share what seems 
to be the common philosophy nowadays. My personnal opinion is that a 
good enough software will never kill a computer's resources alone, if 
the computer is correctly sized for the need, C, ASM, python or whatever 
might be the language. But my opinion is that, it's the accumulation of 
tools using different slow languages, which will kill the computer's 
resources (shell, python2, python3, php, perl, basic, whatever).
I do not really mind and won't insult someone because he prefer a 
different techno, though. Except maybe if I notice that his software is 
contamining the other softwares I use.
Plus, the shame with most of those languages is that, you can't be sure 
that it'll still work correctly on modern computers in 5 years: the 
languages might have changed in non-compatible ways (python?).
That's why, I do not share your opinion on that point. But, I do not 
consider myself a good programmer, so don't worry I know I may be wrong 
--and am on a lot of points-- :)


1: https://xkcd.com/378/


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Re: Problem with quotatool

[Peter Buzanits]

Am 2014-10-19 um 13:47 schrieb lee:

>> I have a problem on 2 Wheezy installations in Vmware, if I want to set
>> quota for a user:
>>
>> bastelecke:~# quotatool -u tutor -bq 2000M -l 2500M /
>> quotatool: Error while detecting kernel quota version: No such file or
>> directory
> 
> Which version of VMWare and Debian kernel are you using?
> 

VMware ESX 4.0.0 Build 236512

3.2.0-4-486 #1 Debian 3.2.60-1+deb7u3 i686 GNU/Linux


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Re: download files from iceweasel using kdialog

[Chris Bannister]

On Sun, Oct 19, 2014 at 11:29:11PM +1100, Scott Ferguson wrote:
> On 20/10/14 00:16, kamaraju kusumanchi wrote:
> > 
> > 
> > On Sun, Oct 19, 2014 at 7:51 AM, Scott Ferguson
> >  > > wrote:
> > 
> > On 19/10/14 23:32, kamaraju kusumanchi wrote:
> > > When I download a file via chromium, it uses kdialog to figure out 
> > where
> > > the file is supposed to be stored on the disk. I find this GUI to be
> > > very intuitive compared to what iceweasel uses for choosing the file
> > > location.
> > >
> > > Is there any way to tell iceweasel to use kdialog to choose the file
> > > location when I try to download something?
> > 
> > x/y problem? :)
> > 
> > 
> > I am not sure what you mean by this. I tried searching wikipedia for
> > "x/y problem" but did not find anything there.
> 
> Wikipedia isn't perfect. It's a somewhat obscure term.

There is this:
http://www.perlmonks.org/?node_id=542341

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Re: how to boot in les than 8 minutes

[Andrei POPESCU]

On Sb, 18 oct 14, 11:29:32, Pierre Frenkiel wrote:
> 
>   I still noticed a curious fact
>   Impossible to find what package provides /etc/samba/smb.conf
>   "apt-file search smb.conf" only gives /usr/share/samba/smb.conf,
>   from samba-common.
>   /usr/share/samba/smb.conf and /etc/samba/dmb.conf are strictly identical
>   Nevertheless, if I remove /etc/samba/smb.conf, the reinstall of samba
>   or samba-common fails

I'm guessing /usr/share/samba/smb.conf is copied to /etc/samba/smb.conf 
in some postinst script (probably of samba-common).

It's been a while since trying out samba, but I seem to recall editing 
smb.conf was a must, so marking it as dpkg-conffile would now work so 
well ;)

Kind regards,
Andrei
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Re: GR proposed re: choice of init systems

[berenger . morel]

Le 18.10.2014 07:06, Steve Litt a écrit :

If they vote "no" on the GR, then I think
that unless Red Hat succeeds in systemdizing X itself, we'll (meaning
those of us who care) will replace systemd-contaminated software with
init-agnostic software. And for sure, boycott all systemd-dependent
software to the best of our ability.


Did they successed with wayland? I just took a look at weston and it 
seems to be linked to stuffD... and with Dbus, when I thought I had read 
time ago things about them using a home-made bus, because they thought 
dbus was too heavy... I hope I'm wrong?



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Re: Good news on claws-mail

[berenger . morel]

Le 19.10.2014 16:15, Steve Litt a écrit :

On Sun, 19 Oct 2014 12:47:03 +0200
Peter Nieman  wrote:


By the way, I am a desktop user, using fvwm. But I don't want all my
applications to "look and feel" the same, I don't want everything to
interact with everything, and I want to control my computer instead
of being controlled by my computer.


Quoted For Truth!!!


It's not that true... I wonder what you'll say if, for example, all 
those pixel-shiny applications like aptitude, ncmpc, vim, emacs, or 
mutt, had sometimes white background, sometimes black, or red...


But, what is obvious is, that we do not need any dbus to achieve that 
goal. Only a "video" server (I consider x-terminal-emulators being like 
Xorg: they eventually read input, pass it to program, and pass the 
program's output to user, like Xorg).


And, finally, I consider myself as a DE user. My DE is built by myself 
around a terminal-emulator, a tiling window manager, and several 
applications, but it's still a DE. A light one, an efficient one, a 
personal one, but it's my DE. :D



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Re: unattended-upgrades

[Andrei POPESCU]

On Du, 19 oct 14, 14:46:07, Chris wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> I'm having no luck getting unattended-upgrads working on a Wheezy server. 
...
> 2014-10-19 14:38:11,709 INFO No packages found that can be upgraded unattended

Seems like there's nothing to upgrade.

Kind regards,
Andrei
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Re: terminology: how do you change the foreground colour?

[Chris Bannister]

On Sun, Oct 19, 2014 at 01:49:17PM +0200, lee wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> the subject already says it:  How do you change the foreground colour in
> terminology?  I can only set the background.

What? ... Where? ummm ...

http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html

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oppressing." --- Malcolm X


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Re: how to boot in les than 8 minutes

[Joe]

On Mon, 20 Oct 2014 13:35:15 +0300
Andrei POPESCU  wrote:

> On Sb, 18 oct 14, 11:29:32, Pierre Frenkiel wrote:
> > 
> >   I still noticed a curious fact
> >   Impossible to find what package provides /etc/samba/smb.conf
> >   "apt-file search smb.conf" only gives /usr/share/samba/smb.conf,
> >   from samba-common.
> >   /usr/share/samba/smb.conf and /etc/samba/dmb.conf are strictly
> > identical Nevertheless, if I remove /etc/samba/smb.conf, the
> > reinstall of samba or samba-common fails
> 
> I'm guessing /usr/share/samba/smb.conf is copied
> to /etc/samba/smb.conf in some postinst script (probably of
> samba-common).
> 
> It's been a while since trying out samba, but I seem to recall
> editing smb.conf was a must, so marking it as dpkg-conffile would now
> work so well ;)
> 
>
Bear in mind that the full samba system is only required for a server
i.e. a machine offering shares, only the client parts are needed to
access shares elsewhere, and they do not generally need central
configuration. Shares mounted by cifs through /etc/fstab will have
access configuration built in there. Linux smb access software mostly
doesn't worry about Windows workgroup names.

Yes, there were samba issues just after my switch to systemd on my old
installation. I'm curious as to why someone thought that five *minutes*
was an appropriate timeout for trying to close smb shares. As far as I
can see, on a local network, if it hasn't happened in about ten seconds
plus any actual cache writing time, it's never going to happen. I've
also seen a lot of failures to close cifs shares before removing
networking in sid over the years (who knew that you shouldn't shut down
networking until *after* the sessions are closed?), though the normal
timeout then is a mere two minutes.

-- 
Joe


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Re: Moderated posts?

[Joe]

On Sun, 19 Oct 2014 23:17:28 +0200
lee  wrote:

> Tanstaafl  writes:
> 
> > On 10/17/2014 9:24 PM, lee  wrote:
> >> You do not accept messages you can not deliver unless you are
> >> relaying them.
> >
> > Absolutely wrong, this rule fully applies to relays just as it does
> > final destination servers.
> 
> I'm not sure what you mean.  How will you know whether messages to a
> particular destination address can be delivered before sending a
> message to that address so that you can decide whether to accept a
> message you're relaying to that address?
> 
> 

I think it's generally an admonishment not to get involved in relaying.
The point of relaying is that the original sender cannot directly reach
the recipient's authoritative mail server, in which case it can't
generally query for recipient validity.

If a relaying server does not hold a list of valid recipients for the
authoritative server, and that's usually difficult to maintain, then it
runs the risk of having to pass an NDR back up the relay line, and if
the original message was spam, then we have NDR spam.

-- 
Joe


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Re: Avoid reboot by loading initramfs again

[Joe]

On Mon, 20 Oct 2014 11:13:38 +0100
Darac Marjal  wrote:

> On Sun, Oct 19, 2014 at 10:36:23PM +0200, Jimmy Thrasibule wrote:
> > Hello,
> > 
> > I wonder if one can avoid a complete reboot of the system just by
> > halting the operating system but right after load the initramfs and
> > restart from there?
> 
> I don't think you can quite do what you're thinking, but there are
> other ways around it.
> 
> > 
> > Basically when we reboot, we only want to reset the operating system
> > state but rarely to do all the hardware checks again. And for a
> > kernel update, there is kexec.
> 
> If you've got as far as halting  the system, then kexec or a full
> reboot are your only options. This is due to the fact that you've
> unmounted all the block  devices, probably  powered them  off and so
> on. I  guess you could try  jumping back into an  initramfs (that you
> loaded  into memory before shutdown), but you might as  well reset
> the kernel at that point. It'll only take a few seconds more.
> 
> The other alternative,  for a "lighter" reboot is to  drop to
> runlevel 1 (or single-user.target, in  systemd's parlance). This
> will  stop all the mutli-user services (X, httpd, sshd and so  on)
> and bring you to a point where only  a minimal number of  services
> are running (file  systems are mounted,  the  local  console  is
> active and  so  on).  You  could  use "checkrestart" (from the
> debian-goodies package) to check what remaining services are using
> outdated libraries and restart them manually. At this point, you can
> come back up to runlevel 2-5 (systemd: multi-user.target) in order to
> bring the system back up to full capacity.
> 
> I think  it depends  on what  you're trying to  achieve and  what
> you're trying to avoid.

Windows 8 achieves fast shutdown and boot times by what is basically a
partial hibernation, but of the system only. Since the shutdown is
fast, I assume the dynamic initrd is prepared much earlier, and kept
updated from time to time.

-- 
Joe


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Re: Avoid reboot by loading initramfs again

[Reco]

 Hi.

On Mon, Oct 20, 2014 at 11:13:38AM +0100, Darac Marjal wrote:
> The other alternative,  for a "lighter" reboot is to  drop to runlevel 1
> (or single-user.target, in  systemd's parlance). This will  stop all the
> mutli-user services (X, httpd, sshd and so  on) and bring you to a point
> where only  a minimal number of  services are running (file  systems are
> mounted,  the  local  console  is  active and  so  on).  You  could  use
> "checkrestart" (from the debian-goodies package) to check what remaining
> services are using outdated libraries and restart them manually. At this
> point, you can come back up to runlevel 2-5 (systemd: multi-user.target)
> in order to bring the system back up to full capacity.

I don't know about systemd, but for Debian's sysvinit returning from the
single-user is not that good idea - [1]. I'm unsure whenever it's
supported now, but I've seen myself init 1 → init 2 sequence deadlocking
on rpcbind.

[1] https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=142424

Reco


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Re: Good news on claws-mail

[Andrei POPESCU]

On Du, 19 oct 14, 15:35:47, Peter Nieman wrote:
> Anyway, evince *recommends* dbus-X11, but after removing dbus it no 
> longer worked.

Could you please elaborate on "it no longer worked"? Do you get any 
errors if you start it from a terminal?

Kind regards,
Andrei
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Re: terminology: how do you change the foreground colour?

[Darac Marjal]

On Sun, Oct 19, 2014 at 01:49:17PM +0200, lee wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> the subject already says it:  How do you change the foreground colour in
> terminology?  I can only set the background.

$ tput setaf 2 && echo This text is green.

See man tput for more information on how to control your terminal

> 
> 
> -- 
> Again we must be afraid of speaking of daemons for fear that daemons
> might swallow us.  Finally, this fear has become reasonable.
> 
> 
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Re: download files from iceweasel using kdialog

[Scott Ferguson]

On 20/10/14 04:30, kamaraju kusumanchi wrote:
> 
> 
> On Sun, Oct 19, 2014 at 8:11 AM, Scott Ferguson
>  > wrote:
> 
> Apologies - I forgot to include this this:-
> 
> Previously I have had the *alternative* file picker thingy (I assume
> that's what you meant by "kdialog") working instead of the default
> iceweasel one - but the experience was flaky and breaks on upgrades.
> 
> 
> Yes. That is what I am after.

Do note - it's *not* a KDE file browser, for reason explained previously.

It 'might' be possible to hack such a thing with a little bash, some
modification of the appropriate mozilla js, and kdialog (the scripted
gui tool) - and understand that approach may be difficult to maintain
across upgrade.
I'm sorry but it's not something I can provide instructions for, or have
time to try myself. Your best bet might be to either find a
plugin/extension that allows that (I don't know any compatible with
recent Iceweasel) - or write your own.
>From unreliable memory you're looking for "filepicker"
(nsIFilePicker??). A cursory search show that function being called in
Firebug.

>  
> 
> NOTE: it *still* uses GTK not QT. Use an Iceweasel theme and KDE QT
> configurator to make it "look" like QT.
> 
> about:config -> filter for "ui.allow_platform_file_picker"
> set the boolean value to "false" (double-click on it)
> 
> I tried this. The resulting file dialog is somewhat different but not
> same as kdialog. 

Yes. Noted previously. GTK != Qt
Until I see a working example of KDE being used for file selection in
Iceweasel this appears to remain and x/y problem (you want the same
features on your Toyota as are in a Ferrari - simulation 'may' be the
closest you can get).

> For example, in the kdialog window opened from
> chromium, if I click on the drop down where the directory name is
> displayed, it shows a list of directories into which files were stored
> recently. This feature is very useful.

File a wishlist bugreport upstream??

> 
> However, after setting the ui.platform_file_picket to false, the
> directories listed under "Look in:" are just directories under the same
> tree. For example, they are as below
> /home/username/dir1/dir2/dir3
> /home/username/dir1/dir2/
> /home/username/dir1/
> /home/username/
>  /home
> /
> This is rarely useful for me and involves multiple clicks before I get
> to the correct destination directory.
> 

Understood. And expected. I haven't explored the abilities to define how
the GTK file browser sets the default locations offered - or how to
redefine it's interface. Either wait for someone else to respond to this
thread, or do a little research on your own.

You don't say what DE libraries you use. If you have KDE you might be
able to find an alternative way (x/y again) of achieving the same
outcome (I have little knowledge of GNOME).
Is there a logic to the choice of directories you wish to download to?
e.g. Could an "auto-filter" be employed to save files to particular
locations based on file type?


Kind regards


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Re: Avoid reboot by loading initramfs again

[Jimmy Thrasibule]

DM> I think  it depends  on what  you're trying to  achieve and  what you're
DM> trying to avoid.

Well my first idea was to have a kind of management OS that I can load
in memory to do some stuff like disk partitioning, fsck, etc...

For example one idea I have in mind is BTRFS snapshots. I can take a
snapshot of my root, and when something goes wrong, I run the
management image to revert the root FS. So I'm looking for a way to
stop the system, run the management image and restart from there. This
way, I can avoid all the hardware and memory checks while booting.

Note that kexec is already doing that [1]. My question was more on how
to cleanly stop and run my memory image.


[1] https://wiki.debian.org/BootProcessSpeedup#Using_kexec_for_warm_reboots


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Re: how to boot in les than 8 minutes

[Pierre Frenkiel]

On Mon, 20 Oct 2014, Andrei POPESCU wrote:


I'm guessing /usr/share/samba/smb.conf is copied to /etc/samba/smb.conf
in some postinst script (probably of samba-common).


  Yes, but if it does that, why is it complaining that /etc/samba/smf.conf
  is missing?

best regards,
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Re: how to boot in les than 8 minutes

[Andrei POPESCU]

On Lu, 20 oct 14, 14:19:19, Pierre Frenkiel wrote:
> On Mon, 20 Oct 2014, Andrei POPESCU wrote:
> 
> >I'm guessing /usr/share/samba/smb.conf is copied to /etc/samba/smb.conf
> >in some postinst script (probably of samba-common).
> 
>   Yes, but if it does that, why is it complaining that /etc/samba/smf.conf
>   is missing?

At what stage? The postinst script of a package is only executed at 
installation time. What you did in the meantime...

Kind regards,
Andrei
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Re: GR proposed re: choice of init systems

[Scott Ferguson]

On 20/10/14 04:03, Martin Read wrote:
> On 19/10/14 17:45, Rusi Mody wrote:
>> As for 'wounded ego': Do you have a wounded ego if a dead branch
>> falls and smashes the windshield of your car? Or a Tsunami knocks
>> off your seafront house?
>> 
>> If you are taking offense, who are you offended by? Debian is not a
>> person (as far as I know!)
> 
> Debian is a project created by a group of people.
> 
> It is not a force of nature.
> 
> 

And "user/tester" rights?
Problematic to a degree all consumers are users and can/do provide
feedback. I'm not unsympathetic, just unsure of where the
"responsibility" lies, particularly with FOSS - and wary of unrealistic
expectations.
Since analogies are being deployed:- If I find a piece of machinery
unsatisfactory I will let the manufacturer know - but getting a say in
the direction of the company, even when overlooking the problems of
satisfying a diversity of opinion, is not possible without at least the
purchase of a share or a position in the company. I could organise a
protest in the car park - but if my demands are unreasonable I may
succeed in changing the company direction at the cost of driving the
business - out of business.

Just some thoughts on the difficulties that would have to be dealt with
to achieve a successful outcome - for all involved.


Kind regards

--
"They say we destroy the things we love, but really the things we love
destroy us."


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Re: Moderated posts?

[Tanstaafl]

On 10/20/2014 7:18 AM, Joe  wrote:
> I think it's generally an admonishment not to get involved in relaying.

No, it is generally an admonishment not to get involved with relaying if
you do not have *access* to validate recipients.

There are multiple ways this can be achieved.

Easiest is what postfix calls 'recipient verification'.

Or you could script a way to get a locally held list.

> The point of relaying is that the original sender cannot directly reach
> the recipient's authoritative mail server, in which case it can't
> generally query for recipient validity.

This is only generally true for *outbound* mail.

I'm talking mainly about acting as an *inbound* relay, meaning, an
inbound MX for any given domain(s).

> If a relaying server does not hold a list of valid recipients for the
> authoritative server, and that's usually difficult to maintain,

Maybe, but again, you can always just use recipient verification (with
permission - this is the postfix term, or use the equiv for whatever
SMTP server you are using).

If whoever you are acting as MX for won't let you perform recipient
verification, then you shouldn't be acting as their MX. Period.


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Re: Problem with quotatool

[Tanstaafl]

On 10/20/2014 6:58 AM, Peter Buzanits  wrote:
> VMware ESX 4.0.0 Build 236512

That is really old...


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Re: Avoid reboot by loading initramfs again

[Jimmy Thrasibule]

SW> See Qubes
SW>
SW> Its what Amazon uses for AWS. Its based on Fedora but idk of a Debian based
SW> distro with a similar focus

My use case is more for a server environment so this is not what I'm
looking for here. I really mean managing the machine from a memory
image without a livecd or anything else.

But this may fit for another idea of mine [1].


[1] https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2014/06/msg01607.html


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Re: Problem with quotatool

[Peter Buzanits]

Am 2014-10-20 um 15:17 schrieb Tanstaafl:
> On 10/20/2014 6:58 AM, Peter Buzanits  wrote:
>> VMware ESX 4.0.0 Build 236512
> 
> That is really old...

You think that the hypervisor could cause problems in the kernel? Are
there any known issues with old VMware and new Linux kernels?



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Re: Avoid reboot by loading initramfs again

[shawn wilson]

On Oct 20, 2014 8:13 AM, "Jimmy Thrasibule" 
wrote:
>
> DM> I think  it depends  on what  you're trying to  achieve and  what
you're
> DM> trying to avoid.
>
> Well my first idea was to have a kind of management OS that I can load
> in memory to do some stuff like disk partitioning, fsck, etc...
>

See Qubes

Its what Amazon uses for AWS. Its based on Fedora but idk of a Debian based
distro with a similar focus

Re: Stuck in update

[Alan Greenberger]

Thank you for responding.

On 2014-10-20, Darac Marjal  wrote:
>
> --uAKRQypu60I7Lcqm
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
> Content-Disposition: inline
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>
> On Sun, Oct 19, 2014 at 12:21:58PM -0400, Alan Greenberger wrote:
>> This morning I tried to update a wheezy recently upgraded from squeeze.
>> It didn't work and I am stuck.
>>=20
>> # aptitude update
>> # aptitude
>>  g
>>  u
>
> You update aptitude twice?
This was a typo, a meant U not u.
>
>>  These packages could be upgraded, but they have been kept in their
>>  current state to avoid breaking dependencies.
>
> Which packages?
Lots that have changed in the last few weeks.
>
>>  q
>>  b (just beeps)
>
> 'b' searches for packages which are broken, but you've just been told
> that packages were held specifically to stop that happening.
>
>>=20
>> There were some error messages about lilo
>
> What were the error messages?
Something went by, can't recall.
>
>> # dpkg -l lilo
>>  iF  lilo   1:23.2-4 amd64
>> # aptitude
>>  /lilo
>>  C lilo 1:23.2-4   1:23.2=
> -4=20
>>=20
>> # dpkg-reconfigure lilo
>>  /usr/sbin/dpkg-reconfigure: lilo is broken or not fully installed
>
> OK. But why is lilo broken?
>
>>=20
>> # aptitude install debsums
>>debsums libfile-fnmatch-perl{a}=20
>> The following partially installed packages will be configured:
>>   lilo
>>  ...
>>  Errors were encountered while processing:
>>  lilo
>>=20
>> # debsums lilo
>>  debsums: package lilo is not installed
>
> debsums didn't install because lilo failed to configure.=20
desums DID install.  Line above shows it running complaining "lilo is
not installed"
>
>>=20
>> # aptitude reinstall lilo
>> The following packages will be REINSTALLED:
>>   lilo=20
>> 0 packages upgraded, 0 newly installed, 1 reinstalled, 0 to remove and 50
>>  not upgraded.
>> Need to get 0 B of archives. After unpacking 0 B will be used.
>> E: Internal Error, No file name for lilo:amd64
>
> OK. Finally, we get to an actual error message. Apt is trying to find a
> package for lilo:amd64, but can't for some reason.
>
> Please let us know the output of:
>
>  $ cat /etc/apt/sources.list{,.d/*.list}
 deb http://ftp.us.debian.org/debian wheezy main contrib non-free
 deb-src http://ftp.us.debian.org/debian wheezy main contrib non-free
 
 deb http://security.debian.org/ wheezy/updates main contrib non-free
 deb-src http://security.debian.org/ wheezy/updates main contrib non-free

 deb http://ftp.us.debian.org/debian wheezy-updates main contrib non-free
 deb-src http://ftp.us.debian.org/debian wheezy-updates main contrib non-free

 deb http://ftp.us.debian.org/debian wheezy-backports main contrib non-free
 
 deb http://www.deb-multimedia.org wheezy main non-free
>  $ apt-cache policy lilo
 lilo:
   Installed: 1:23.2-4
   Candidate: 1:23.2-4
   Version table:
  *** 1:23.2-4 0
 500 http://ftp.us.debian.org/debian/ wheezy/main amd64 Packages
 100 /var/lib/dpkg/status
>  $ dpkg --audit
 The following packages are only half configured, probably due to problems
 configuring them the first time.  The configuration should be retried using
 dpkg --configure  or the configure menu option in dselect:
  lilo LInux LOader - the classic OS boot loader

 The following packages are missing the md5sums control file in the
 database, they need to be reinstalled:
 ...
>

OK, I tried the whole thing again this morning and lo and behold, this
time aptitude was able to do the update and complete!  Though for
unknown reason, it decided to uninstall acroread.  (Maybe this all has
to do with 32 bit programs?  I have dpkg --print-foreign-architectures
is i386.)

But the reported problem with lilo remains.  Can't reconfigure, can't
reinstall.  I am hesitant to uninstall lilo.



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Re: how to boot in les than 8 minutes

[Pierre Frenkiel]

On Mon, 20 Oct 2014, Andrei POPESCU wrote:


At what stage? The postinst script of a package is only executed at
installation time. What you did in the meantime...


  I did:  apt-get --reinstall install samba-common

  So, it seems that with --reinstall, the postinst script is not
  executed, which is not what I would expect.
  I saw:

   You can reinstall a package with sudo apt-get install --reinstall
   packagename. This completely removes the package (but not its
   dependencies), and then re-install the package.


best regards,
--
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Re: Good news on claws-mail

[Steve Litt]

On Mon, 20 Oct 2014 03:37:56 +0200
berenger.mo...@neutralite.org wrote:


> And, finally, I consider myself as a DE user. My DE is built by
> myself around a terminal-emulator, a tiling window manager, 

Which one?

I use Openbox, which of course isn't tiling.

> and
> several applications, 

Such as?

My main apps are:

* Sigil
* Bluefish
* Iceweasel (I use xxxterm on Ubuntu)
* Vim
* VimOutliner
* LyX
* Gnumeric
* LibreOffice Impress
* The various programming languages
* UMENU
* dmenu

> but it's still a DE. A light one, an efficient
> one, a personal one, but it's my DE. :D

An afficienado would argue with you that it's a DE only if the apps can
all interact. Me, I'd prefer all my apps mind their own business, but
hey, that's just me.

SteveT

Steve Litt*  http://www.troubleshooters.com/
Troubleshooting Training  *  Human Performance


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Re: GR proposed re: choice of init systems

[Miles Fidelman]

Scott Ferguson wrote:

On 20/10/14 04:03, Martin Read wrote:

On 19/10/14 17:45, Rusi Mody wrote:

As for 'wounded ego': Do you have a wounded ego if a dead branch
falls and smashes the windshield of your car? Or a Tsunami knocks
off your seafront house?

If you are taking offense, who are you offended by? Debian is not a
person (as far as I know!)

Debian is a project created by a group of people.

It is not a force of nature.



And "user/tester" rights?
Problematic to a degree all consumers are users and can/do provide
feedback. I'm not unsympathetic, just unsure of where the
"responsibility" lies, particularly with FOSS - and wary of unrealistic
expectations.
Since analogies are being deployed:- If I find a piece of machinery
unsatisfactory I will let the manufacturer know - but getting a say in
the direction of the company, even when overlooking the problems of
satisfying a diversity of opinion, is not possible without at least the
purchase of a share or a position in the company. I could organise a
protest in the car park - but if my demands are unreasonable I may
succeed in changing the company direction at the cost of driving the
business - out of business.

Just some thoughts on the difficulties that would have to be dealt with
to achieve a successful outcome - for all involved.




Well, it's worth noting that in many areas of endeavor, users, or user 
communities, write specifications/standards that all players have to 
meet.  So, for example, when one buys an ethernet card - vendors really 
do not really have a choice as to whether or not to implement the standards.


With Linux distros, including the kernel and implementing the LSB are 
pretty much things everyone has to meet (with a few notable exceptions 
like GNU/kFreeBSD - though arguably that's not Linux).


Miles Fidelman

--
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In practice, there is.    Yogi Berra


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Re: Moderated posts?

[Miles Fidelman]

Joe wrote:

On Sun, 19 Oct 2014 23:17:28 +0200
lee  wrote:


Tanstaafl  writes:


On 10/17/2014 9:24 PM, lee  wrote:

You do not accept messages you can not deliver unless you are
relaying them.

Absolutely wrong, this rule fully applies to relays just as it does
final destination servers.

I'm not sure what you mean.  How will you know whether messages to a
particular destination address can be delivered before sending a
message to that address so that you can decide whether to accept a
message you're relaying to that address?



I think it's generally an admonishment not to get involved in relaying.
The point of relaying is that the original sender cannot directly reach
the recipient's authoritative mail server, in which case it can't
generally query for recipient validity.


Relaying happens all the time - e.g., when an organization designates a 
single mail gateway, that then distributes to department-level mail systems.


And, in the corporate world, NDRs from down-stream servers are commonplace.

Miles Fidelman


--
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice.
In practice, there is.    Yogi Berra


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Re: unattended-upgrades

[Chris]

On Monday 20 October 2014 12:39:45 Andrei POPESCU wrote:
> On Du, 19 oct 14, 14:46:07, Chris wrote:
> > Hi,
> > 
> > I'm having no luck getting unattended-upgrads working on a Wheezy server.
> 
> ...
> 
> > 2014-10-19 14:38:11,709 INFO No packages found that can be upgraded
> > unattended
> 
> Seems like there's nothing to upgrade.
> 
> Kind regards,
> Andrei

No, that's not the problem.

"No entry appears in /var/log/unattended-upgrades/unattended-upgrades.log other 
than the dry runs."

i.e. today on 20 October the last entry is still from yesterday:

2014-10-19 14:38:11,701 DEBUG pkgs that look like they should be upgraded: 
2014-10-19 14:38:11,709 DEBUG fetch.run() result: 0
2014-10-19 14:38:11,709 DEBUG blacklist: []
2014-10-19 14:38:11,709 DEBUG InstCount=0 DelCount=0 BrokenCout=0
2014-10-19 14:38:11,709 INFO No packages found that can be upgraded unattended

although a test script with timestamp reports that cron.daily ran: 10202014 
07:35:02 : Test Daily

On another system with working unattended-upgrades  iceweasel was installed by 
unattended-upgrades today.

-- 
Chris


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Re: Problem with quotatool

[Tanstaafl]

On 10/20/2014 9:39 AM, Peter Buzanits  wrote:
> Am 2014-10-20 um 15:17 schrieb Tanstaafl:
>> On 10/20/2014 6:58 AM, Peter Buzanits  wrote:
>>> VMware ESX 4.0.0 Build 236512
>>
>> That is really old...
> 
> You think that the hypervisor could cause problems in the kernel? Are
> there any known issues with old VMware and new Linux kernels?

I was simply pointing out that that version od ESX is really old.


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Re: GR proposed re: choice of init systems

[Martin Read]

On 20/10/14 01:28, berenger.mo...@neutralite.org wrote:

Did they successed with wayland? I just took a look at weston and it
seems to be linked to stuffD... and with Dbus, when I thought I had read
time ago things about them using a home-made bus, because they thought
dbus was too heavy... I hope I'm wrong?


A default build of the Weston reference Wayland compositor will link 
against libdbus, because the default build includes support for 
interacting with logind.


It *appears* (from the options offered by the configure script) that 
building Weston with dbus and logind support is optional. Not being 
involved in the project, I have no information about how well-tested 
that configuration is and will leave any further commentary on the 
subject to people who have the relevant knowledge.



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Re: Good news on claws-mail

[Scott Ferguson]

On 20/10/14 04:48, Peter Nieman wrote:
> On 19/10/14 15:04, Scott Ferguson wrote:
>> You hijacked the thread - and this is why that's considered bad form -
>> it muddies the discussion. 

-8<--->8--
> 
> Yes, Dad.
> 
> 

The consequences of your decision to ride a bike downhill without a seat
are predictable. Don't you think?


Kind regards

-- 

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Re: unattended-upgrades

[Chris Bannister]

On Sun, Oct 19, 2014 at 02:46:07PM +0200, Chris wrote:
> "origin=Debian,archive=stable,label=Debian-Security";
> Unattended-Upgrade::Origins-Pattern:: 
> "origin=Debian,archive=oldstable,label=Debian-Security";
 ^
Is that right?

-- 
"If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people
who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the 
oppressing." --- Malcolm X


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Re: Good news on claws-mail

[Peter Nieman]

On 20/10/14 13:53, Andrei POPESCU wrote:

On Du, 19 oct 14, 15:35:47, Peter Nieman wrote:

Anyway, evince *recommends* dbus-X11, but after removing dbus it no
longer worked.


Could you please elaborate on "it no longer worked"? Do you get any
errors if you start it from a terminal?


Yes, I got an error line, but I don't remember exactly what it was, only 
that it was something about dbus (if my memory isn't failing me completely).


What I had done is this (according to the aptitude log):

I removed liferea, that removed gconf-service, gconf2, gconf2-common, 
libgconf-2-4, libjson-glib-1.0-0, libunique-1.0-0, and liferea-data for 
no longer being used.


Then I removed dbus-x11 and dbus, which - thankfully - also removed 
libsystemd-login0.


After that, evince was no longer able to open any pdf files.

But it doesn't matter to me any longer, as I'm no longer interested in 
evince. qpdfview is much better anyway.


Kind regards,
p.


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Re: Avoid reboot by loading initramfs again

[Gary Dale]

On 20/10/14 09:36 AM, Jimmy Thrasibule wrote:

SW> See Qubes
SW>
SW> Its what Amazon uses for AWS. Its based on Fedora but idk of a Debian based
SW> distro with a similar focus

My use case is more for a server environment so this is not what I'm
looking for here. I really mean managing the machine from a memory
image without a livecd or anything else.

But this may fit for another idea of mine [1].


[1] https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2014/06/msg01607.html


Have you considered statically linking the kernel to all the required 
modules and disabling hardware detection?



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Re: GR proposed re: choice of init systems

[Andrei POPESCU]

On Sb, 18 oct 14, 10:20:25, Joel Rees wrote:
> On Sat, Oct 18, 2014 at 6:14 AM, Lisi Reisz  wrote:
> 
> >  We were objecting to
> > the ad hominem unpleasantness and destruction of the list.
> 
> Let me try to explain (yet again, sorry, but re-wording things
> sometimes does help) my point of view and why some of what I have said
> should not be considered ad hominem. (Some will say pessimistic, I
> won't argue with that, even though I think pessimism is warranted.)

[big snip]

> Does this help explain why what appears to some as mere turf battles
> and childish name-calling, etc., is a bit more than playground antics?

Not to me. All these discussions could very well happen on the -offtopic 
list. Currently one of Debian's main support channels is being DOSed 
with these debates.

Kind regards,
Andrei
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Re: download files from iceweasel using kdialog

[Scott Ferguson]

On 20/10/14 04:39, kamaraju kusumanchi wrote:
> 
> 
> On Sun, Oct 19, 2014 at 12:40 PM, Jimmy Johnson
> mailto:field.engin...@gmail.com>> wrote:
> 
> kamaraju kusumanchi wrote:
> 
> When I download a file via chromium, it uses kdialog to figure
> out where the file is supposed to be stored on the disk. I find
> this GUI to be very intuitive compared to what iceweasel uses
> for choosing the file location.
> 
> Is there any way to tell iceweasel to use kdialog to choose the
> file location when I try to download something?
> 
> 
> 
> Have you made your settings in 'Paths', KDE/'systemsetting'/'Account
> Details'?
> 
> 
> May be I am missing something... But how is this related to the file
> dialog opened by iceweasel when downloading something?
> 
> raju
> 

Jimmy is giving you a way to change where Downloads is located - if you
are using KDE. When y/z is not possible - try x/y.

Despite your obvious good intentions you haven't given us much to work
with - which DE you are using - and why - and how, the KDE filepicker
dialog suits your purpose better. Some example of where you want to save
files - and why, might help.

Kind regards


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Remember when men were men and wrote their own init scripts? =)

[Martinx - ジェームズ]

Guys,

I really do NOT want to start a flame war, I know that you guys are tired
about this "init" subject appearing over and over... But, my turn...:-P


*First things first: Why I'm with Debian / Ubuntu?*


A.: Because *I like the work of Debian Maintainers* (you guys and gals,
sirs and madams), about how Debian *compiles and packages* *every single
piece of open source software out there* (i.e., its `configure ; make ;
make install` from `debian/rules`, I love it).


I really don't care that much about what init system I have (I'm using
upstart and sysvinit these days, never used systemd - it IS too unstable (I
tried it without success, lots of bugs popped everywhere when with
systemd), invasive and dangerous to our comunity project (a.k.a. Debian))...

But please, guys, DO NOT LOSE "*DEBIAN COMPILATION*"!!

I mean, when I read that infamous guy, Poettering, talking about things
like this:


http://0pointer.net/blog/revisiting-how-we-put-together-linux-systems.html

It creeps the hell outta me! Specially this:


"...This greatly simplifies application installation, as there's no
dependency hell..." - Poettring.


So, this guy uses a RPM-based distro, called RedHat/CentOS/Fedora, right?!
I feel sorry for him... Poor guy...

Only that crap-distro(s) have a "dependency hell", not our shiny Debian. I
don't know what that guy is talking about, honestly (well, no, I know -
rpm+yum sucks).   =P

Anyway, I see that there is room for improvements on software installing
and updating (binary diffs, cow and etc?) but, wait, systemd instead of
dpkg/apt?! I thought this thing was supposed to replace ONLY the init
system, nothing more, neither udev (already engulfed)...

So, is systemd even trying to replace dpkg+apt too? Come guys... For real?!

*Please, do not let this to happen here! Do not lose "Debian Compilation",
and packaging, do not lose "[dpkg / apt] / debian/rules", for systemd!*

*Also, do not lose `dpkg-buildpackage` for "systemd-buildpackage"!!*

This systemd thing *has already gone too far*. Keep systemd at its bare
minimum level... Do not let it take over the whole distro.


Honestly, I don't fear systemd itself, or binary logs... I fear things like
this:


Linux Kernel Developers Fed Up With Ridiculous Bugs In Systemd:
http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=MTY1MzA

Linux systemd dev says open source is 'SICK', kernel community 'awful':
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2014/10/06/poettering_says_linux_kernel_community_is_hostil/


So, lets move on over this systemd thing, *keep it at its bare minimum
level...*

I'm fine with a new init system, our current state of technology allows us
to do that, something like systemd (I like its ideas, but don't like its
"Mr. Knowitall" implementation, *it looks really ugly and bloated*),
nevertheless, I'll try it later, maybe on 2016~2020, if it proves itself
really stable (i.e., a nonissue in the near future) AND upstream developers
change their attitude / behavior on bug handling, etc...

Please guys, don't take me wrong (no flame wars okay?!)... I'm just
concerned about the preservation of our amazing Linux/kFreeBSD distro!
Keeping `sysvinit-core` in Debian 8 (9, 10...) *at a reliable level* *is a
wise thing to do*. Just in case... (I don't trust RedHat neither the
Corporatocracy).

So! Let the men write their own init scripts powered by `sysvinit-core` for
a long time ahead! Don't throw this away! Also, keep kfreebsd flavor for
how long as possible (*without systemd things*, of course)! On Linux, it is
fine to have systemd installed and around (like systemd-udev, logind0 and
etc) but, sysvinit is important (even upstart is), do not lose it...

BTW, *during Debian 8 installation, please, provide a (d-i, tasksel,
alternatives, whatever) interface for selecting the initsystem*, *this is
important!* I know that it seems pretty easy to just run "apt-get install
sysvinit-core" (or preseed it) (to get rid of systemd as init) after the
installation but, if that [initsystem selection] option appear (during the
installation), *this will make Debian even stronger*, as the only distro
that provides, at least, two (sysvinit|systemd) reliable init systems. *How
cool is that?!*

Also, without an interface for selecting an init system on Jessie, *the
popularity contest becomes unfair*.

Honestly, I would like to wake up from this systemd nightmare.

I'm seeing that there is demand for a brand new Linux distribution, that
will sit right in the middle of Debian and Slackware... Something like a
Debian fork without DBus, systemd and PAM, but still with dpkg/apt "d-i"
and lots of packages. Lets do it?! Lets fork Debian and remove systemd,
dbus and pam out from it?! The fork `uselessd` (or a new udev) becomes more
and more a necessity.

Just for the record, today is the first day that I tested systemd, then,
systemd-journal consumed 100% of my CPU (plus rsyslog), something related
to GPM and, "ecryptfs" does not umount my home dir anymore, after logout...
Is it a system

Re: how to boot in les than 8 minutes

[Andrei POPESCU]

On Lu, 20 oct 14, 16:16:00, Pierre Frenkiel wrote:
> On Mon, 20 Oct 2014, Andrei POPESCU wrote:
> 
> >At what stage? The postinst script of a package is only executed at
> >installation time. What you did in the meantime...
> 
>   I did:  apt-get --reinstall install samba-common
> 
>   So, it seems that with --reinstall, the postinst script is not
>   executed, which is not what I would expect.

You might have better success with

dpkg-reconfigure samba-common

instead.

>   I saw:
> 
>You can reinstall a package with sudo apt-get install --reinstall
>packagename. This completely removes the package (but not its
>dependencies), and then re-install the package.

That doesn't appear to be from the apt-get manual and seems wrong to me.

Kind regards,
Andrei
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Re: GR proposed re: choice of init systems

[Andrei POPESCU]

On Lu, 20 oct 14, 09:49:24, Miles Fidelman wrote:
> 
> Well, it's worth noting that in many areas of endeavor, users, or user
> communities, write specifications/standards that all players have to meet.
> So, for example, when one buys an ethernet card - vendors really do not
> really have a choice as to whether or not to implement the standards.
 
Not a good example: Ethernet is an IEEE standard and as far as I 
understand from Wikipedia this is not a user association, but a 
professional association.

> With Linux distros, including the kernel and implementing the LSB are pretty
> much things everyone has to meet (with a few notable exceptions like
> GNU/kFreeBSD - though arguably that's not Linux).

Would you please be so kind to explain how systemd breaks LSB?

Kind regards,
Andrei
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Re: GR proposed re: choice of init systems

[Steve Litt]

On Mon, 20 Oct 2014 17:15:47 +0300
Andrei POPESCU  wrote:

> On Sb, 18 oct 14, 10:20:25, Joel Rees wrote:
> 
> > Does this help explain why what appears to some as mere turf battles
> > and childish name-calling, etc., is a bit more than playground
> > antics?
> 
> Not to me. All these discussions could very well happen on the
> -offtopic list.

Sure it can. Every single status-quo supporter in history has told
protestors the same thing: If you want to ride on the front of the bus,
petition the county, but don't do boycotts and civil disobediance.

Yes, if we all wanted to have a polite discussion amongst ourselves,
reaching nobody but those wanting to discuss cars, Obama, Ebola, and the
Mideast, we certainly could go on the offtopic list. But we want to:

A) Reach real people involved in the situation
B) Build a community

Frankly, telling us we can do it on the offtopic list is an insult to
our intelligence. You know it, and we know it.

SteveT

Steve Litt*  http://www.troubleshooters.com/
Troubleshooting Training  *  Human Performance


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Re: Good news on claws-mail

[Andrei POPESCU]

On Lu, 20 oct 14, 18:46:11, Peter Nieman wrote:
> On 20/10/14 13:53, Andrei POPESCU wrote:
> >On Du, 19 oct 14, 15:35:47, Peter Nieman wrote:
> >>Anyway, evince *recommends* dbus-X11, but after removing dbus it no
> >>longer worked.
> >
> >Could you please elaborate on "it no longer worked"? Do you get any
> >errors if you start it from a terminal?
> 
> Yes, I got an error line, but I don't remember exactly what it was, only
> that it was something about dbus (if my memory isn't failing me completely).
> 
> What I had done is this (according to the aptitude log):
> 
> I removed liferea, that removed gconf-service, gconf2, gconf2-common,
> libgconf-2-4, libjson-glib-1.0-0, libunique-1.0-0, and liferea-data for no
> longer being used.
> 
> Then I removed dbus-x11 and dbus, which - thankfully - also removed
> libsystemd-login0.
> 
> After that, evince was no longer able to open any pdf files.
> 
> But it doesn't matter to me any longer, as I'm no longer interested in
> evince. qpdfview is much better anyway.

The bug page of evince[1] has no mention of dbus. It might be that you 
discovered a rare bug and I'm sure evince's maintainers would be happy 
to know about it, assuming you can reproduce it.

[1] https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/pkgreport.cgi?src=evince

Kind regards,
Andrei
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Re: Remember when men were men and wrote their own init scripts? =)

[Martinx - ジェームズ]

Sorry man... English isn't my native language, is hard for me to express
myself in another language... But yes, those sources aren't the best but,
there are more, you know.   :-P

Best!
Thiago

On 20 October 2014 15:55, Axel Wagner  wrote:

> Hi,
>
> Martinx - ジェームズ  writes:
> > I really do NOT want to start a flame war
>
> This statement is evidently false or misguided.
>
> I'd love to leave it at that (see?), but:
>
> > Linux Kernel Developers Fed Up With Ridiculous Bugs In Systemd:
> > http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=MTY1MzA
> >
> > Linux systemd dev says open source is 'SICK', kernel community 'awful':
> >
> http://www.theregister.co.uk/2014/10/06/poettering_says_linux_kernel_community_is_hostil/
>
> Seriously? You are quoting phoronix and theregister as sources?
>
> Best,
>
> Axel Wagner
>

Re: Good news on claws-mail

[Andrei POPESCU]

On Lu, 20 oct 14, 11:29:09, Steve Litt wrote:
> 
> An afficienado would argue with you that it's a DE only if the apps can
> all interact.

That's your definition, Wikipedia seems to disagree.

> Me, I'd prefer all my apps mind their own business, but
> hey, that's just me.

How does that work with "do one thing and do it well"?

Kind regards,
Andrei
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Re: unattended-upgrades

[Andrei POPESCU]

On Lu, 20 oct 14, 17:48:35, Chris wrote:
> 
> No, that's not the problem.
> 
> "No entry appears in /var/log/unattended-upgrades/unattended-upgrades.log 
> other than the dry runs."
> 
> i.e. today on 20 October the last entry is still from yesterday:
> 
> 2014-10-19 14:38:11,701 DEBUG pkgs that look like they should be upgraded: 
> 2014-10-19 14:38:11,709 DEBUG fetch.run() result: 0
> 2014-10-19 14:38:11,709 DEBUG blacklist: []
> 2014-10-19 14:38:11,709 DEBUG InstCount=0 DelCount=0 BrokenCout=0
> 2014-10-19 14:38:11,709 INFO No packages found that can be upgraded unattended
> 
> although a test script with timestamp reports that cron.daily ran: 10202014 
> 07:35:02 : Test Daily
 
Do you have anacron installed? What happens if you run the cron script 
by hand?

Kind regards,
Andrei
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Re: Avoid reboot by loading initramfs again

[Jimmy Thrasibule]

GD> Have you considered statically linking the kernel to all the required
GD> modules and disabling hardware detection?

Yes I do. And this is the kind of kernel I use for my servers but this
will not help for what I'm looking to achieve here.


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Re: how to boot in les than 8 minutes

[Pierre Frenkiel]

On Mon, 20 Oct 2014, Andrei POPESCU wrote:


You might have better success with

   dpkg-reconfigure samba-common


 it's not the same. I was faced to the 5 minutes waiting time at shutdown,
 and wanted to check whether this came from a problem when installing
 samba-common/samba. Anyway, as I said, it's solved with the new version.


  I saw:

   You can reinstall a package with sudo apt-get install --reinstall
   packagename. This completely removes the package (but not its
   dependencies), and then re-install the package.


That doesn't appear to be from the apt-get manual and seems wrong to me.


  of course, the man says nothing! I tried to find elsewhere a more detailed
  description of what exactly does --reinstall, and found the above lines.

  In the absence of informations, it seems the only solution is to
  look at the source !!


best regards,
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Re: GR proposed re: choice of init systems

[Martinx - ジェームズ]

Sorry about the newbie question but, can I vote somewhere to "preserve
the choice of init systems" ?

I would like to firm my position, not against systemd but, instead, in
favor of the preservation of Debian's stability and future, by being able
to choose a init system during the installation (d-i).

I'm trying systemd these days but, I'm not liking it (too many bugs popping
up everywhere), maybe in 2016~2020 it becomes really stable... I don't want
to be a systemd "guinea pig".

Cheers!
Thiago

On 20 October 2014 15:52, Steve Litt  wrote:

> On Mon, 20 Oct 2014 17:15:47 +0300
> Andrei POPESCU  wrote:
>
> > On Sb, 18 oct 14, 10:20:25, Joel Rees wrote:
> >
> > > Does this help explain why what appears to some as mere turf battles
> > > and childish name-calling, etc., is a bit more than playground
> > > antics?
> >
> > Not to me. All these discussions could very well happen on the
> > -offtopic list.
>
> Sure it can. Every single status-quo supporter in history has told
> protestors the same thing: If you want to ride on the front of the bus,
> petition the county, but don't do boycotts and civil disobediance.
>
> Yes, if we all wanted to have a polite discussion amongst ourselves,
> reaching nobody but those wanting to discuss cars, Obama, Ebola, and the
> Mideast, we certainly could go on the offtopic list. But we want to:
>
> A) Reach real people involved in the situation
> B) Build a community
>
> Frankly, telling us we can do it on the offtopic list is an insult to
> our intelligence. You know it, and we know it.
>
> SteveT
>
> Steve Litt*  http://www.troubleshooters.com/
> Troubleshooting Training  *  Human Performance
>
>
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>
>

Re: Remember when men were men and wrote their own init scripts? =)

[Steve Litt]

On Mon, 20 Oct 2014 15:34:43 -0200
Martinx - ジェームズ  wrote:


> 
> But please, guys, DO NOT LOSE "*DEBIAN COMPILATION*"!!
> 
> I mean, when I read that infamous guy, Poettering, talking about
> things like this:
> 
> 
> http://0pointer.net/blog/revisiting-how-we-put-together-linux-systems.html
> 
> It creeps the hell outta me! 

[snip]

> So, is systemd even trying to replace dpkg+apt too? Come guys... For
> real?!
> 

[snip]

> 
> Honestly, I don't fear systemd itself, or binary logs... I fear
> things like this:
> 
> 
> Linux Kernel Developers Fed Up With Ridiculous Bugs In Systemd:
> http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=MTY1MzA
> 
> Linux systemd dev says open source is 'SICK', kernel community
> 'awful':
> http://www.theregister.co.uk/2014/10/06/poettering_says_linux_kernel_community_is_hostil/

Thiago,

Sadly, you ask the exact right question. Do we want Debian (and Linux)
ruled by a megalomaniac who hates Linux, is determined to make it into
something un-Linux, and wants all distros to be the same (copies of his
employer's distro, no doubt).

Systemd's architecture, which I personally find unwise, is nevertheless
something that, from a technical standpoint, *could* be disentangled at
a later date if it turns out to be as problematic as I think it will be.

The real problem, which you put your finger square on, is that the
architecture is simply a tool of monopolization. And, in fact, the
megalomaniac is a proxy for his employer, Red Hat.

Anybody who reads Poetterings writings, listens to his interviews, and
doesn't come away with the idea that he wants to destroy what is
currently Linux, and make sure it can never regenerate itself, isn't
paying attention.

Red Hat already had OpenSuSE, Fedora, CentOS, Mand* and all its
descendants, and several others on its team already. Somehow, Arch and
Sabayon fell for it too. If they conquer Debian, then Ubuntu and all the
Debian and Ubuntu descendants fall, and Red Hat controls all of Linux.
From there it's a simple matter to weld more and more onto their
systemd (such as the packaging system), until regenerating the real
Linux is no longer practical. Once they have a monopoly, they'll show
much less regard for us than the CTTE ever did.

Right now, this minute, Debian has the last clear chance to avoid the
"Poettering Vision", which is really the Red Hat strategy for Linux
monopolization, which means destruction of the operating system we
currently use.

At this point, the technical issues are a minor thing. The big news is
how humans are going to use those technical issues to replace our
wonderful, almost POSIX OS with a Windows wannabe.

SteveT

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Re: GR proposed re: choice of init systems

[Miles Fidelman]

Andrei POPESCU wrote:

On Lu, 20 oct 14, 09:49:24, Miles Fidelman wrote:

Well, it's worth noting that in many areas of endeavor, users, or user
communities, write specifications/standards that all players have to meet.
So, for example, when one buys an ethernet card - vendors really do not
really have a choice as to whether or not to implement the standards.
  
Not a good example: Ethernet is an IEEE standard and as far as I

understand from Wikipedia this is not a user association, but a
professional association.


With Linux distros, including the kernel and implementing the LSB are pretty
much things everyone has to meet (with a few notable exceptions like
GNU/kFreeBSD - though arguably that's not Linux).

Would you please be so kind to explain how systemd breaks LSB?



These are both situations where  folks other than "those who do the 
work" have a lot of say in what work gets done.


Miles Fidelman



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Re: GR proposed re: choice of init systems

[Miles Fidelman]

Unfortunately, unless you're a Debian Developer, the answer is no - 
other than with your feet - to one of the dwindling number of distros 
that make it policy to stay away from systemd.


Sigh

Miles Fidelman

Martinx - ジェームズ wrote:
Sorry about the newbie question but, can I vote somewhere to "preserve 
the choice of init systems" ?


I would like to firm my position, not against systemd but, instead, in 
favor of the preservation of Debian's stability and future, by being 
able to choose a init system during the installation (d-i).


I'm trying systemd these days but, I'm not liking it (too many bugs 
popping up everywhere), maybe in 2016~2020 it becomes really stable... 
I don't want to be a systemd "guinea pig".


Cheers!
Thiago

On 20 October 2014 15:52, Steve Litt > wrote:


On Mon, 20 Oct 2014 17:15:47 +0300
Andrei POPESCU mailto:andreimpope...@gmail.com>> wrote:

> On Sb, 18 oct 14, 10:20:25, Joel Rees wrote:
>
> > Does this help explain why what appears to some as mere turf battles
> > and childish name-calling, etc., is a bit more than playground
> > antics?
>
> Not to me. All these discussions could very well happen on the
> -offtopic list.

Sure it can. Every single status-quo supporter in history has told
protestors the same thing: If you want to ride on the front of the
bus,
petition the county, but don't do boycotts and civil disobediance.

Yes, if we all wanted to have a polite discussion amongst ourselves,
reaching nobody but those wanting to discuss cars, Obama, Ebola,
and the
Mideast, we certainly could go on the offtopic list. But we want to:

A) Reach real people involved in the situation
B) Build a community

Frankly, telling us we can do it on the offtopic list is an insult to
our intelligence. You know it, and we know it.

SteveT

Steve Litt* http://www.troubleshooters.com/
Troubleshooting Training  *  Human Performance


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Re: GR proposed re: choice of init systems

[Andrei POPESCU]

On Lu, 20 oct 14, 13:52:37, Steve Litt wrote:
> > 
> > Not to me. All these discussions could very well happen on the
> > -offtopic list.
> 
> Sure it can. Every single status-quo supporter in history has told
> protestors the same thing: If you want to ride on the front of the bus,
> petition the county, but don't do boycotts and civil disobediance.
 
You're free to boycott Debian or systemd or whatever. Civil disobedience 
doesn't really apply here, since you're not a "citizen" of Debian, i.e. 
you can leave at any time, you don't pay taxes, etc., you're only using 
what Debian provides for free (in both meanings of the word).

If you mean you are actually DOSing Debian's support channels just to 
make you're point that's likely to get you banned instead, besides not 
achieving anything.

> Yes, if we all wanted to have a polite discussion amongst ourselves,
> reaching nobody but those wanting to discuss cars, Obama, Ebola, and the
> Mideast, we certainly could go on the offtopic list. But we want to:
> 
> A) Reach real people involved in the situation

A simple announcement like "hey, we want to discuss 'this' and 'that' 
over 'there', if you're interested join us" would have been as 
effective. 

> B) Build a community

By destroying another one?

> Frankly, telling us we can do it on the offtopic list is an insult to
> our intelligence. You know it, and we know it.

No, actually I don't. Call me stupid if you want, but I fail to see how 
having such discussions elsewhere is insulting.

Kind regards,
Andrei
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Re: unattended-upgrades

[Chris]

On Monday 20 October 2014 20:13:14 Andrei POPESCU wrote:
> On Lu, 20 oct 14, 17:48:35, Chris wrote:
> > No, that's not the problem.
> > 
> > "No entry appears in /var/log/unattended-upgrades/unattended-upgrades.log
> > other than the dry runs."
> > 
> > i.e. today on 20 October the last entry is still from yesterday:
> > 
> > 2014-10-19 14:38:11,701 DEBUG pkgs that look like they should be
> > upgraded: 2014-10-19 14:38:11,709 DEBUG fetch.run() result: 0
> > 2014-10-19 14:38:11,709 DEBUG blacklist: []
> > 2014-10-19 14:38:11,709 DEBUG InstCount=0 DelCount=0 BrokenCout=0
> > 2014-10-19 14:38:11,709 INFO No packages found that can be upgraded
> > unattended
> > 
> > although a test script with timestamp reports that cron.daily ran:
> > 10202014 07:35:02 : Test Daily
> 
> Do you have anacron installed? What happens if you run the cron script
> by hand?
> 
> Kind regards,
> Andrei

Yes, I do have anacron installed because I thought that might be the problem. 
How would you suggest I run it manually, there are lots of different threads on 
how to do that.
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Re: GR proposed re: choice of init systems

[Martinx - ジェームズ]

Okay, no problem... Tks for your reply!:-)

On 20 October 2014 16:31, Miles Fidelman  wrote:

> Unfortunately, unless you're a Debian Developer, the answer is no - other
> than with your feet - to one of the dwindling number of distros that make
> it policy to stay away from systemd.
>
> Sigh
>
> Miles Fidelman
>
> Martinx - ジェームズ wrote:
>
>> Sorry about the newbie question but, can I vote somewhere to "preserve
>> the choice of init systems" ?
>>
>> I would like to firm my position, not against systemd but, instead, in
>> favor of the preservation of Debian's stability and future, by being able
>> to choose a init system during the installation (d-i).
>>
>> I'm trying systemd these days but, I'm not liking it (too many bugs
>> popping up everywhere), maybe in 2016~2020 it becomes really stable... I
>> don't want to be a systemd "guinea pig".
>>
>> Cheers!
>> Thiago
>>
>> On 20 October 2014 15:52, Steve Litt > sl...@troubleshooters.com>> wrote:
>>
>> On Mon, 20 Oct 2014 17:15:47 +0300
>> Andrei POPESCU > > wrote:
>>
>> > On Sb, 18 oct 14, 10:20:25, Joel Rees wrote:
>> >
>> > > Does this help explain why what appears to some as mere turf
>> battles
>> > > and childish name-calling, etc., is a bit more than playground
>> > > antics?
>> >
>> > Not to me. All these discussions could very well happen on the
>> > -offtopic list.
>>
>> Sure it can. Every single status-quo supporter in history has told
>> protestors the same thing: If you want to ride on the front of the
>> bus,
>> petition the county, but don't do boycotts and civil disobediance.
>>
>> Yes, if we all wanted to have a polite discussion amongst ourselves,
>> reaching nobody but those wanting to discuss cars, Obama, Ebola,
>> and the
>> Mideast, we certainly could go on the offtopic list. But we want to:
>>
>> A) Reach real people involved in the situation
>> B) Build a community
>>
>> Frankly, telling us we can do it on the offtopic list is an insult to
>> our intelligence. You know it, and we know it.
>>
>> SteveT
>>
>> Steve Litt* http://www.troubleshooters.com/
>> Troubleshooting Training  *  Human Performance
>>
>>
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>> 
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>> listmas...@lists.debian.org 
>> Archive:
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>>
>>
>>
>
> --
> In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice.
> In practice, there is.    Yogi Berra
>
>
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>
>

Re: GR proposed re: choice of init systems

[Andrei POPESCU]

On Lu, 20 oct 14, 14:27:59, Miles Fidelman wrote:
> Andrei POPESCU wrote:
> >On Lu, 20 oct 14, 09:49:24, Miles Fidelman wrote:
> >>Well, it's worth noting that in many areas of endeavor, users, or user
> >>communities, write specifications/standards that all players have to meet.
> >>So, for example, when one buys an ethernet card - vendors really do not
> >>really have a choice as to whether or not to implement the standards.
> >Not a good example: Ethernet is an IEEE standard and as far as I
> >understand from Wikipedia this is not a user association, but a
> >professional association.
> >
> >>With Linux distros, including the kernel and implementing the LSB are pretty
> >>much things everyone has to meet (with a few notable exceptions like
> >>GNU/kFreeBSD - though arguably that's not Linux).
> >Would you please be so kind to explain how systemd breaks LSB?
> >
> 
> These are both situations where  folks other than "those who do the work"
> have a lot of say in what work gets done.

According to Wikipedia:

- the IEEE has about 425000 members. Do you mean none of them are 
  actually working in the industry? See highly unlikely to me.

- the LSB is a joint project of several Linux distributions. Ironically:

  "The LSB has been criticized for not taking input from projects, most 
  notably the Debian project, outside the sphere of its member 
  companies."

Kind regards,
Andrei
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Re: Remember when men were men and wrote their own init scripts? =)

[Ondřej Surý]

On Mon, Oct 20, 2014, at 19:34, Martinx - ジェームズ wrote:

> I really do NOT want to start a flame war, I know that you
guys are tired about this "init" subject appearing over and
over...



No, you wanted to add more oil on existing flamewars and you
know it. If you don't want to start the flamewars, you should
refrain sending such emails, please.



> But, my turn...:-P



No, please don't. It's neither useful, productive nor funny.



Cheers,

Ondrej

Re: unattended-upgrades

[Andrei POPESCU]

On Lu, 20 oct 14, 20:39:59, Chris wrote:
> 
> Yes, I do have anacron installed because I thought that might be the problem. 

If you have anacron installed the jobs will be run by anacron, but you 
already have proven that daily cronjobs work, so that's probably a dead 
end.

> How would you suggest I run it manually, there are lots of different threads 
> on 
> how to do that.

Not being aware of any other threads about it I'd do:

sh -x /etc/cron.daily/apt

You might want to capture the output and possibly paste it here.

Kind regards,
Andrei
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Re: Remember when men were men and wrote their own init scripts? =)

[Don Armstrong]

On Mon, 20 Oct 2014, Martinx - ジェームズ wrote:
> I really do NOT want to start a flame war, I know that you guys are tired
> about this "init" subject appearing over and over... But, my turn...:-P

This thread is off-topic for -user. debian-user@lists.debian.org is for
Debian support.

If you want more information about systemd, see https://wiki.debian.org/systemd.

If you want to avoid using systemd, simply don't install the
systemd-sysv package. If something requires systemd-sysv and doesn't
have an alternative dependency on systemd-shim, please file a bug using
reportbug if one hasn't already been filed.

If you want to discuss this further, please use
http://lists.alioth.debian.org/mailman/listinfo/d-community-offtopic.

Further responses to this thread may be discarded.

-- 
Don Armstrong  http://www.donarmstrong.com

If god is always watching over us
who's driving?
 -- a softer world #487
http://www.asofterworld.com/index.php?id=487


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Re: Stuck in update

[Alan Greenberger]

On 2014-10-20, Alan Greenberger  wrote:
> Thank you for responding.
>
> On 2014-10-20, Darac Marjal  wrote:
>>
>> --uAKRQypu60I7Lcqm
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
>> Content-Disposition: inline
>> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>>
>> On Sun, Oct 19, 2014 at 12:21:58PM -0400, Alan Greenberger wrote:
>>> This morning I tried to update a wheezy recently upgraded from squeeze.
>>> It didn't work and I am stuck.
>>>=20
>>> # aptitude update
>>> # aptitude
>>>  g
>>>  u
>>
>> You update aptitude twice?
> This was a typo, a meant U not u.
>>
>>>  These packages could be upgraded, but they have been kept in their
>>>  current state to avoid breaking dependencies.
>>
>> Which packages?
> Lots that have changed in the last few weeks.
>>
>>>  q
>>>  b (just beeps)
>>
>> 'b' searches for packages which are broken, but you've just been told
>> that packages were held specifically to stop that happening.
>>
>>>=20
>>> There were some error messages about lilo
>>
>> What were the error messages?
> Something went by, can't recall.
>>
>>> # dpkg -l lilo
>>>  iF  lilo   1:23.2-4 amd64
>>> # aptitude
>>>  /lilo
>>>  C lilo 1:23.2-4   1:23.2=
>> -4=20
>>>=20
>>> # dpkg-reconfigure lilo
>>>  /usr/sbin/dpkg-reconfigure: lilo is broken or not fully installed
>>
>> OK. But why is lilo broken?
>>
>>>=20
>>> # aptitude install debsums
>>>debsums libfile-fnmatch-perl{a}=20
>>> The following partially installed packages will be configured:
>>>   lilo
>>>  ...
>>>  Errors were encountered while processing:
>>>  lilo
>>>=20
>>> # debsums lilo
>>>  debsums: package lilo is not installed
>>
>> debsums didn't install because lilo failed to configure.=20
> desums DID install.  Line above shows it running complaining "lilo is
> not installed"
>>
>>>=20
>>> # aptitude reinstall lilo
>>> The following packages will be REINSTALLED:
>>>   lilo=20
>>> 0 packages upgraded, 0 newly installed, 1 reinstalled, 0 to remove and 50
>>>  not upgraded.
>>> Need to get 0 B of archives. After unpacking 0 B will be used.
>>> E: Internal Error, No file name for lilo:amd64
>>
>> OK. Finally, we get to an actual error message. Apt is trying to find a
>> package for lilo:amd64, but can't for some reason.
>>
>> Please let us know the output of:
>>
>>  $ cat /etc/apt/sources.list{,.d/*.list}
>  deb http://ftp.us.debian.org/debian wheezy main contrib non-free
>  deb-src http://ftp.us.debian.org/debian wheezy main contrib non-free
>  
>  deb http://security.debian.org/ wheezy/updates main contrib non-free
>  deb-src http://security.debian.org/ wheezy/updates main contrib non-free
>
>  deb http://ftp.us.debian.org/debian wheezy-updates main contrib non-free
>  deb-src http://ftp.us.debian.org/debian wheezy-updates main contrib non-free
>
>  deb http://ftp.us.debian.org/debian wheezy-backports main contrib non-free
>  
>  deb http://www.deb-multimedia.org wheezy main non-free
>>  $ apt-cache policy lilo
>  lilo:
>Installed: 1:23.2-4
>Candidate: 1:23.2-4
>Version table:
>   *** 1:23.2-4 0
>  500 http://ftp.us.debian.org/debian/ wheezy/main amd64 Packages
>  100 /var/lib/dpkg/status
>>  $ dpkg --audit
>  The following packages are only half configured, probably due to problems
>  configuring them the first time.  The configuration should be retried using
>  dpkg --configure  or the configure menu option in dselect:
>   lilo LInux LOader - the classic OS boot loader
>
>  The following packages are missing the md5sums control file in the
>  database, they need to be reinstalled:
>  ...
>>
>
> OK, I tried the whole thing again this morning and lo and behold, this
> time aptitude was able to do the update and complete!  Though for
> unknown reason, it decided to uninstall acroread.  (Maybe this all has
> to do with 32 bit programs?  I have dpkg --print-foreign-architectures
> is i386.)
>
> But the reported problem with lilo remains.  Can't reconfigure, can't
> reinstall.  I am hesitant to uninstall lilo.

I seem to have solved the lilo problem.  I tried 
# dpkg --configure lilo
It complained about not being able to write already existing
/boot/sarge.bmp and /boot/sid.bmp .  So I deleted those two symbolic
links, ran it again, and it completed.  Now dpkg -l lilo gives
ii  lilo   1:23.2-4 amd64
and aptitude shows it as
i--\ lilo1:23.2-4   1:23.2-4 

Hopefully this machine is back in business.  I don't know what caused
all of this, but something must have gotten out of whack during the
recent upgrade to wheezy that only showed up when I tried to update
yesterday morning.  I don't know what I typed yesterday that managed to
get interactive aptitude out of its angry state.


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Re: GR proposed re: choice of init systems

[Miles Fidelman]

Andrei POPESCU wrote:

On Lu, 20 oct 14, 14:27:59, Miles Fidelman wrote:

Andrei POPESCU wrote:

On Lu, 20 oct 14, 09:49:24, Miles Fidelman wrote:

Well, it's worth noting that in many areas of endeavor, users, or user
communities, write specifications/standards that all players have to meet.
So, for example, when one buys an ethernet card - vendors really do not
really have a choice as to whether or not to implement the standards.

Not a good example: Ethernet is an IEEE standard and as far as I
understand from Wikipedia this is not a user association, but a
professional association.


With Linux distros, including the kernel and implementing the LSB are pretty
much things everyone has to meet (with a few notable exceptions like
GNU/kFreeBSD - though arguably that's not Linux).

Would you please be so kind to explain how systemd breaks LSB?


These are both situations where  folks other than "those who do the work"
have a lot of say in what work gets done.

According to Wikipedia:

- the IEEE has about 425000 members. Do you mean none of them are
   actually working in the industry? See highly unlikely to me.

- the LSB is a joint project of several Linux distributions. Ironically:

   "The LSB has been criticized for not taking input from projects, most
   notably the Debian project, outside the sphere of its member
   companies."


Hmm... kind of seems appropriate then, to discussion about systemd.

Cheers,

Miles

--
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In practice, there is.    Yogi Berra


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Re: Moderated posts?

[Joe]

On Mon, 20 Oct 2014 09:51:20 -0400
Miles Fidelman  wrote:

> Joe wrote:
> > On Sun, 19 Oct 2014 23:17:28 +0200
> > lee  wrote:
> >
> >> Tanstaafl  writes:
> >>
> >>> On 10/17/2014 9:24 PM, lee  wrote:
>  You do not accept messages you can not deliver unless you are
>  relaying them.
> >>> Absolutely wrong, this rule fully applies to relays just as it
> >>> does final destination servers.
> >> I'm not sure what you mean.  How will you know whether messages to
> >> a particular destination address can be delivered before sending a
> >> message to that address so that you can decide whether to accept a
> >> message you're relaying to that address?
> >>
> >>
> > I think it's generally an admonishment not to get involved in
> > relaying. The point of relaying is that the original sender cannot
> > directly reach the recipient's authoritative mail server, in which
> > case it can't generally query for recipient validity.
> 
> Relaying happens all the time - e.g., when an organization designates
> a single mail gateway, that then distributes to department-level mail
> systems.
> 
Yes, but there's at least a fighting chance in this case that the
organisation can configure the gateway server to verify recipients locally.
The problems occur where there is no real mail admin, where a small
company outsources its spam-cleaning, and nobody in the company even
knows what a recipient list is, let alone that their spam-cleaner
should have one, kept up to date. Many small and medium businesses
collect their main domain-wide by POP3, giving no way of automating
recipient verification.

> And, in the corporate world, NDRs from down-stream servers are
> commonplace.
> 
Which is why the spammers love them.

-- 
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Re: GR proposed re: choice of init systems

[Ric Moore]

On 10/19/2014 04:32 PM, Scott Ferguson wrote:

On 20/10/14 04:03, Martin Read wrote:

On 19/10/14 17:45, Rusi Mody wrote:

As for 'wounded ego': Do you have a wounded ego if a dead branch
falls and smashes the windshield of your car? Or a Tsunami knocks
off your seafront house?

If you are taking offense, who are you offended by? Debian is not a
person (as far as I know!)


Debian is a project created by a group of people.

It is not a force of nature.




And "user/tester" rights?
Problematic to a degree all consumers are users and can/do provide
feedback. I'm not unsympathetic, just unsure of where the
"responsibility" lies, particularly with FOSS - and wary of unrealistic
expectations.
Since analogies are being deployed:- If I find a piece of machinery
unsatisfactory I will let the manufacturer know - but getting a say in
the direction of the company, even when overlooking the problems of
satisfying a diversity of opinion, is not possible without at least the
purchase of a share or a position in the company. I could organise a
protest in the car park - but if my demands are unreasonable I may
succeed in changing the company direction at the cost of driving the
business - out of business.

Just some thoughts on the difficulties that would have to be dealt with
to achieve a successful outcome - for all involved.


Scott, that can't be right. It makes too much sense. :) Ric



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"There are two Great Sins in the world...
..the Sin of Ignorance, and the Sin of Stupidity.
Only the former may be overcome." R.I.P. Dad.
Linux user# 44256


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Re: GR proposed re: choice of init systems

[Ric Moore]

On 10/20/2014 01:27 AM, Rusi Mody wrote:

On Sunday, October 19, 2014 11:50:02 PM UTC+5:30, Jimmy Johnson wrote:

Slavko wrote:

Ahoj,
napísal:

On Fri, Oct 17, 2014 at 07:02:12PM +0100, Lisi Reisz wrote:

On Friday 17 October 2014 18:30:31 Andre N Batista wrote:

I cannot believe some people still
thinks [snip] that we should simply stick with
the TC's authority regardless what.

Surely no-one has ever said that??  References if someone has?

Sven Joachim.
"Because the people who do the work get to make the decisions,
that's the way Debian works."

All testing's users which are doing testing of the software and are
reporting the bugs are working on, despite if they are in some team or
not. But now it seems, that the regular users are on the last position
of the interest and particular part of the Social contract are only
words.
This is the reason why i suspend all my contributions for now. I know,
that the Debian was here without me and will be here without me too, but
i see no enough interest to contribute now. First i was in doubts: is
this only my wounded ego? But by last months doings i lost any doubts.



..the small man stands defiantly in front of the moving tank waving his
flag of freedom..I don't blame you for moving out of the way, maybe some
pieces will be left and you will still be here to help put them pieces
back together again, or something new and better will come along, have
faith my friend.


It seems that
https://lists.debian.org/debian-vote/
is down right now.

This case seems to be generating enough interest for it to register as
a DOS (attack) on the servers!?! Heh!


It's back up. The newer threads are titled "re: re-proposal" followed by 
"Amendment (Re: Re-Proposal)" now, while Peter Kremer has an exciting 
investment proposal for us. You must have tried to access during an 
update period (last was 4:00PM).


The last entry as of now:
https://lists.debian.org/debian-vote/2014/10/msg00255.html
references Lan's contention that "IMO summary lines should certainly not 
be written by opponents of the proposed option."


I think I will better spend my time watching mold grow on the fallen 
autumn leaves, while drinking an diet orange soda. ;) Ric


--
My father, Victor Moore (Vic) used to say:
"There are two Great Sins in the world...
..the Sin of Ignorance, and the Sin of Stupidity.
Only the former may be overcome." R.I.P. Dad.
Linux user# 44256


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Re: GR proposed re: choice of init systems

[Ric Moore]

On 10/20/2014 10:15 AM, Andrei POPESCU wrote:

On Sb, 18 oct 14, 10:20:25, Joel Rees wrote:

On Sat, Oct 18, 2014 at 6:14 AM, Lisi Reisz  wrote:


  We were objecting to
the ad hominem unpleasantness and destruction of the list.


Let me try to explain (yet again, sorry, but re-wording things
sometimes does help) my point of view and why some of what I have said
should not be considered ad hominem. (Some will say pessimistic, I
won't argue with that, even though I think pessimism is warranted.)


[big snip]


Does this help explain why what appears to some as mere turf battles
and childish name-calling, etc., is a bit more than playground antics?


Not to me. All these discussions could very well happen on the -offtopic
list. Currently one of Debian's main support channels is being DOSed
with these debates.


I wonder if they are pro or con the proposal or the re:proposal? :) Ric



--
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"There are two Great Sins in the world...
..the Sin of Ignorance, and the Sin of Stupidity.
Only the former may be overcome." R.I.P. Dad.
Linux user# 44256


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Re: GR proposed re: choice of init systems

[Ric Moore]

On 10/20/2014 02:35 PM, Andrei POPESCU wrote:


If you mean you are actually DOSing Debian's support channels just to
make you're point that's likely to get you banned instead, besides not
achieving anything.


~OR!~

"List archives get refreshed every 20 minutes." is a more likely reason 
for the list to go down just for a bit, especially with the higher than 
normal activity. I doubt any of the 4chan types to give a whit, one way 
or the other, as we're not exactly clubbing baby seals here. Maybe there 
is a GNU/Low Orbit Ion Cannon?? That would be more likely.  :) Ric




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..the Sin of Ignorance, and the Sin of Stupidity.
Only the former may be overcome." R.I.P. Dad.
Linux user# 44256


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Re: GR proposed re: choice of init systems

[Andrei POPESCU]

On Lu, 20 oct 14, 16:49:48, Ric Moore wrote:
> On 10/20/2014 02:35 PM, Andrei POPESCU wrote:
> 
> >If you mean you are actually DOSing Debian's support channels just to
> >make you're point that's likely to get you banned instead, besides not
> >achieving anything.
> 
> ~OR!~
> 
> "List archives get refreshed every 20 minutes." is a more likely reason for
> the list to go down just for a bit, especially with the higher than normal
> activity. I doubt any of the 4chan types to give a whit, one way or the
> other, as we're not exactly clubbing baby seals here. Maybe there is a
> GNU/Low Orbit Ion Cannon?? That would be more likely.  :) Ric

I meant debian-user, as in: most traffic is now about systemd instead of 
supporting users with problems.

Kind regards,
Andrei
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Re: GR proposed re: choice of init systems

[Ric Moore]

On 10/20/2014 04:54 PM, Andrei POPESCU wrote:

On Lu, 20 oct 14, 16:49:48, Ric Moore wrote:

On 10/20/2014 02:35 PM, Andrei POPESCU wrote:


If you mean you are actually DOSing Debian's support channels just to
make you're point that's likely to get you banned instead, besides not
achieving anything.


~OR!~

"List archives get refreshed every 20 minutes." is a more likely reason for
the list to go down just for a bit, especially with the higher than normal
activity. I doubt any of the 4chan types to give a whit, one way or the
other, as we're not exactly clubbing baby seals here. Maybe there is a
GNU/Low Orbit Ion Cannon?? That would be more likely.  :) Ric


I meant debian-user, as in: most traffic is now about systemd instead of
supporting users with problems.


Heh, that's another Low Orbit Ion Cannon. But, the OP presented a link 
to the Debian-Vote channel being down, if I recall correctly. Ric



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..the Sin of Ignorance, and the Sin of Stupidity.
Only the former may be overcome." R.I.P. Dad.
Linux user# 44256


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systemd-journal eats 100% CPU + rsyslog bloated with messages - Jessie

[Martinx - ジェームズ]

Guys,

Right after connecting via SSH and starting "mc", my machine almost died.

I seeing the following messages at the logs:

http://pastebin.com/4zXYXSWe

I need to kill "gpm", or fallback to `sysvinit-core`, by removing systemd
as init, to be able to use my system as usual.

This systemd thing throw lots of messages and had entered in an infinity
loop.

I'm wondering here, if systemd does not have the ability to not enter
itself in a loop, how this thing will manage everything?!

It seems too unstable right now. Does it not "knows" about: "processes that
respawn too fast are disabled" ?

Tips?!

Tks,
Thiago

Error code 1...........

[Charlie]

From my keyboard:
   Debian Jessie on laptop.

Probably nothing but:

The following packages will be upgraded:
  libjpeg-progs
1 upgraded, 0 newly installed, 0 to remove and 100 not upgraded.
40 not fully installed or removed.
Need to get 0 B/82.1 kB of archives.
After this operation, 162 kB of additional disk space will be used.
Do you want to continue? [Y/n] y
(Reading database ... 140431 files and directories currently installed.)
Preparing to unpack .../libjpeg-progs_1%3a9a-2_amd64.deb ...
Unpacking libjpeg-progs (1:9a-2) over (1:1.3.1-3) ...
dpkg: error processing
archive /var/cache/apt/archives/libjpeg-progs_1%3a9a-2_amd64.deb
(--unpack): trying to overwrite '/usr/share/man/man1/djpeg.1.gz', which
is also in package libjpeg-turbo-progs 1:1.3.1-3 Processing triggers
for man-db (2.7.0.2-1) ... Errors were encountered while
processing: /var/cache/apt/archives/libjpeg-progs_1%3a9a-2_amd64.deb E:
Sub-process /usr/bin/dpkg returned an error code (1)
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***

Just because I accept you as you are does not mean that I have
given up all hope of your improvement. Ashleigh
Brilliant

***

Debian GNU/Linux - just the best way to create magic

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Re: user authentication for a secure laptop.

[peter]

> Do you mean using fingerprints as local authentication??

Authentication isn't necessary.  An example is the olpc 
system on the XO machines.  Power up and the X interface 
for user olpc is available.  Most cell phones are similar.

> Do you mean passphrase authenticated remote logins?

password =? passphrase.  If so, then yes.

> It depends on your definition of "secure".

I am the only person with access to the machine.  It is in my house or in my 
office.

In lightdm this has no apparent effect.
# /etc/lightdm/lightdm.conf
autologin-user=username
autologin-user-timeout=0

Odd.  Has anyone made autologin work in lightdm?

There is also a package named nodm with this description.
"... automatically start an X session at system boot ... for devices like 
smartphones, but can be used on a regular computer ..."
After removing *dm and installing nodm, the system still presented a 
dialogue similar to lightdm.  Stock configuration doesn't give the stated 
effect.  Likely an adjustment is needed.

Thanks for any ideas, ... Peter E.



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Re: Error code 1...........

[Patrick Wiseman]

On Mon, Oct 20, 2014 at 6:20 PM, Charlie  wrote:
>
> From my keyboard:
>Debian Jessie on laptop.
>
> Probably nothing but:
>
> The following packages will be upgraded:
>   libjpeg-progs
> 1 upgraded, 0 newly installed, 0 to remove and 100 not upgraded.
> 40 not fully installed or removed.
> Need to get 0 B/82.1 kB of archives.
> After this operation, 162 kB of additional disk space will be used.
> Do you want to continue? [Y/n] y
> (Reading database ... 140431 files and directories currently installed.)
> Preparing to unpack .../libjpeg-progs_1%3a9a-2_amd64.deb ...
> Unpacking libjpeg-progs (1:9a-2) over (1:1.3.1-3) ...
> dpkg: error processing
> archive /var/cache/apt/archives/libjpeg-progs_1%3a9a-2_amd64.deb
> (--unpack): trying to overwrite '/usr/share/man/man1/djpeg.1.gz', which
> is also in package libjpeg-turbo-progs 1:1.3.1-3 Processing triggers
> for man-db (2.7.0.2-1) ... Errors were encountered while
> processing: /var/cache/apt/archives/libjpeg-progs_1%3a9a-2_amd64.deb E:
> Sub-process /usr/bin/dpkg returned an error code (1)

When I encountered this error (which was mentioned on this list a few
days ago) I purged the linjpeg-turbo-progs package (on which
apparently nothing depended because it went without complaint) and
then resumed my upgrade; the error went away. But maybe that's not the
"right" way to do it.

Patrick


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Debian fork

[golinux]

Just in case you haven't seen this elsewhere:

http://debianfork.org/


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Re: Debian fork

[Martinx - ジェームズ]

If this Debian Fork doesn't make use of:

systemd
dbus
pam
gnome

And uses EFL + E19, then, I'm in!

I'm sure that there is room for a new distro, that will sit in the middle
of Debian 7 and Slackware...   ;-)

Cheers!

On 19 October 2014 21:20,  wrote:

> Just in case you haven't seen this elsewhere:
>
> http://debianfork.org/
>
>
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>

Censorship confirmed

[golinux]

On Mon, 10/20/14, Don Armstrong  wrote:

 Subject: Re: Remember when men were men and wrote their own init 
scripts? =)

 To: debian-user@lists.debian.org
 Cc: listmas...@lists.debian.org
 Date: Monday, October 20, 2014, 1:59 PM

Further responses to this thread may be discarded.

 --

 Don Armstrong



Having a hard time deciding between sarcasm . . . NICE!

Or outrage . . . WTF!

for a response.


golinux


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If Not Systemd, then What?

[Patrick Bartek]

After much vitriolic gnashing of teeth from those opposed to systemd,
I wonder...  What is a better alternative?  And it can't be sysvinit.

Yes.  Syvinit still works, but it is after all 20 years old. It's been
patched and bolted onto and jury-rigged to get it to do things that
weren't even around (or dreamt of) at its inception.  It's long past
due for a contemporary replacement.  Whatever that may be.

So, what would you all propose?  For a server?  Or for a user desktop?
Or something that fulfills both scenarios?  And why?

Just wondering.


B


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Re: msg from tornow....

[Andrew McGlashan]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA256

Hi,

Thanks for the cc in this case, your message never made it to the
list, it was /probably/ silently dropped  changing the subject
line to see if it helps *this* message to get through ;-)

   for the list *benefit* ... said email follows...

On 21/10/2014 8:06 AM, tor...@riseup.net wrote:
>> Do I want systemd ? - definitely and absolutely NO.
> 
>> Is there any point arguing here in debian-user ? - definitely
>> NOT.
> 
>> My view is that systemd is a forgone conclusion and no-one whom
>> has decided that it should be will be convinced otherwise.
> 
>> I cannot agree that systemd is better over sysvinit and I don't
>> expect that to ever change.  There is NOTHING wrong with
>> sysvinit, there is something wrong with blaming sysvinit for
>> other startup issues that had/have been done incorrectly.
> 
> Same thoughts here. I made my choice and changed the distribution, 
> after running Debian for > 6 years. If needed, Poettering's ideas 
> make it sound like that, i will even change the OS (obvious
> choice: BSD). I didn't make that choice lighthearted. Debian meant
> something to me.
> 
> Not arguing here, cause it won't bring a change, doesn't mean one 
> doesn't care and won't make the according choice. And calling
> people who are worried about systemd trolls (and/or haters),
> worried because they *do* care about Debian, sure won't convince
> them to stay.
> 
> 
> Bye.

-BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (MingW32)

iF0EAREIAAYFAlRFlzcACgkQqBZry7fv4vvBEQD9F51oxM+DTos3qNK/vCqDYAIT
rUjoIlPkocpm0rlakrYA+IUh2iu3TGp8zm9bBUJS7pBjTLOtzB5jIGyimUL31VA=
=CqIZ
-END PGP SIGNATURE-


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Re: All roads to suspend/hibernate lead through systemd?

[James Ensor]

On Oct 18, 2014 2:00 PM, "Nate Bargmann"  wrote:
>
> No, this is not a troll (seems like that is necessary to state up
> front).  I have been experimenting with dropping systemd from my laptop
> running Sid but find that even with xfce4-power-manager suspend nor
> hibernate are available any more unless I install the policykit-1
> package recommended by the upower package which depends on
> libpam-systemd which, even if I install systemd-shim, also installs the
> systemd package as a dependency, even though it won't run as PID 1.
>
> Has anyone worked out a way to enable suspend in xfce4-power-manager
> without ultimately installing systemd?
>

I faced the same thing when I removed systemd.  So I instead got acpi
working to do a suspend when I close the lid (just like I used to in the
good old days)

Re: download files from iceweasel using kdialog

[Scott Ferguson]

On 20/10/14 16:15, Chris Bannister wrote:
> On Sun, Oct 19, 2014 at 11:29:11PM +1100, Scott Ferguson wrote:
>> On 20/10/14 00:16, kamaraju kusumanchi wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sun, Oct 19, 2014 at 7:51 AM, Scott Ferguson
>>> >> > wrote:
>>>
>>> On 19/10/14 23:32, kamaraju kusumanchi wrote:
>>> > When I download a file via chromium, it uses kdialog to figure out 
>>> where
>>> > the file is supposed to be stored on the disk. I find this GUI to be
>>> > very intuitive compared to what iceweasel uses for choosing the file
>>> > location.
>>> >
>>> > Is there any way to tell iceweasel to use kdialog to choose the file
>>> > location when I try to download something?
>>>
>>> x/y problem? :)
>>>
>>>
>>> I am not sure what you mean by this. I tried searching wikipedia for
>>> "x/y problem" but did not find anything there.
>>
>> Wikipedia isn't perfect. It's a somewhat obscure term.
> 
> There is this:
> http://www.perlmonks.org/?node_id=542341
> 
Thanks for the clarification and correction Chris, 'that' is what I
'should' have said, instead of the gibberish I wrote. :(
(Solaris flashbacks from a misspent youth..?)

My apologies for the confusion Kamaraju.


Kind regards


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Re: Avoid reboot by loading initramfs again

[Scott Ferguson]

On 20/10/14 23:52, shawn wilson wrote:
> 
> On Oct 20, 2014 8:13 AM, "Jimmy Thrasibule"  > wrote:
>>
>> DM> I think  it depends  on what  you're trying to  achieve and  what
> you're
>> DM> trying to avoid.
>>
>> Well my first idea was to have a kind of management OS that I can load
>> in memory to do some stuff like disk partitioning, fsck, etc...
>>
> 
> See Qubes
> 
> Its what Amazon uses for AWS. Its based on Fedora but idk of a Debian
> based distro with a similar focus
> 
!!??

Qubes OS, uses (mostly) Fedora userland to provide a single-user KDE.
It 'can' run in AWS (EC2).
There's a difference.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qubes_OS
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amazon_Web_Services

One of the most common OS run in AWS EC2, *is* Debian.


Kind regards


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Refracta systemd-free progress

[golinux]

Check out the outstanding progress that fsmithred and dzz are making 
with a systemd-free Refracta:


http://refracta.freeforums.org/going-with-the-systemd-flow-or-not-t422-50.html#p4085

http://refracta.freeforums.org/going-with-the-systemd-flow-or-not-t422-60.html#p4086

Kudos to them!! Looking forward to giving this a spin before too long.


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Re: GR proposed re: choice of init systems

[Scott Ferguson]

On 21/10/14 00:49, Miles Fidelman wrote:
> Scott Ferguson wrote:
>> On 20/10/14 04:03, Martin Read wrote:
>>> On 19/10/14 17:45, Rusi Mody wrote:
 As for 'wounded ego': Do you have a wounded ego if a dead branch
 falls and smashes the windshield of your car? Or a Tsunami knocks
 off your seafront house?

 If you are taking offense, who are you offended by? Debian is not a
 person (as far as I know!)
>>> Debian is a project created by a group of people.
>>>
>>> It is not a force of nature.
>>>
>>>
>> And "user/tester" rights?
>> Problematic to a degree all consumers are users and can/do provide
>> feedback. I'm not unsympathetic, just unsure of where the
>> "responsibility" lies, particularly with FOSS - and wary of unrealistic
>> expectations.
>> Since analogies are being deployed:- If I find a piece of machinery
>> unsatisfactory I will let the manufacturer know - but getting a say in
>> the direction of the company, even when overlooking the problems of
>> satisfying a diversity of opinion, is not possible without at least the
>> purchase of a share or a position in the company. I could organise a
>> protest in the car park - but if my demands are unreasonable I may
>> succeed in changing the company direction at the cost of driving the
>> business - out of business.
>>
>> Just some thoughts on the difficulties that would have to be dealt with
>> to achieve a successful outcome - for all involved.
>>
>>
> 
> Well, it's worth noting that in many areas of endeavor, users, or user
> communities, write specifications/standards that all players have to
> meet.  So, for example, when one buys an ethernet card - vendors really
> do not really have a choice as to whether or not to implement the
> standards.

True - though I don't see the relevance to "Debian users". The
"standards" that Debian uses - and there are many - couldn't be defined
as "written" by Debian "users".

> 
> With Linux distros, including the kernel and implementing the LSB are
> pretty much things everyone has to meet (with a few notable exceptions
> like GNU/kFreeBSD - though arguably that's not Linux).

Agreed Miles, and I don't mean to overlook the huge advantage that the
(F)OSS model has over closed-source in it's testing userbase.

That still doesn't translate into entitlement. "Tail wagging dog"?.

Analogies have their limitations, but...
In the 80s a Sydney Mental Hospital experimented with letting the
patients vote on the medication they were given. It's not a system still
in use - despite successful outcomes in a small percentage of patients.
A problem with trying to please everyone due to the nature of diversity
(and that xy thing).

Like democracy the Debian system of letting developers decide what they
develop is not a perfect model, but it's the least worst one we've got -
and it's the "developers model". We as users, are free to suggest, but
might be foolish to force.  Words that springs to mind are "guidance",
"feedback", and "symbiotic", softer terms than "obligation" and
"entitlement" or "debt".
Though the military may disagree - enforced "freedom" is oxymoronic. At
which I'll leave my part in this discussion.

> 
> Miles Fidelman
> 


Kind regards


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Re: user authentication for a secure laptop.

[Scott Ferguson]

On 21/10/14 03:10, pe...@easthope.ca wrote:
>> Do you mean using fingerprints as local authentication??
> 
> Authentication isn't necessary.  An example is the olpc 
> system on the XO machines.  Power up and the X interface 
> for user olpc is available.  Most cell phones are similar.
> 
>> Do you mean passphrase authenticated remote logins?
> 
> password =? passphrase.  If so, then yes.
> 
>> It depends on your definition of "secure".
> 
> I am the only person with access to the machine.  It is in my house or in my 
> office.

Then secure was misleading, you simply want autologin.

> 
> In lightdm this has no apparent effect.
> # /etc/lightdm/lightdm.conf
> autologin-user=username
> autologin-user-timeout=0
> 
> Odd.  Has anyone made autologin work in lightdm?

Sort of - I simply ignored it.
Given that it's a single user machine - why use a dm at all?

nano /etc/inittab

find the line:
1:2345:respawn:/sbin/getty xxx tty1

Where xxx is an irrelevant number
e.g. 115200

comment it out by putting a '#' in front of it, such as:
#1:2345:respawn:/sbin/getty 115200 tty1

now add the line, beneath it:
1:2345:respawn:/bin/login -f scott tty1 /dev/tty1 2>&1


I've also an autologin you might be able to use:-

#include 
#include 
#include 

int main(void) {
  execlp( "login", "login", "-f", "scott", 0);
  return 0;
}

NOTE: I only use these approaches on single-user machines where LUKS is
deployed - so authentication is used, which is not your use case. I have
not faith in fingerprint "authentication" - though it's great for
selecting a user.

> 
> There is also a package named nodm with this description.
> "... automatically start an X session at system boot ... for devices like 
> smartphones, but can be used on a regular computer ..."
> After removing *dm and installing nodm, the system still presented a 
> dialogue similar to lightdm.  Stock configuration doesn't give the stated 
> effect.  Likely an adjustment is needed.
> 
> Thanks for any ideas, ... Peter E.
> 
> 
> 


HTH

Kind regards


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Re: GR proposed re: choice of init systems

[Scott Ferguson]

On 21/10/14 05:24, Martinx - ジェームズ wrote:
> Sorry about the newbie question but, can I vote somewhere to "preserve
> the choice of init systems" ?
> 

http://boycottsystemd.org/lennart1.png  ?

---8<--->8

Please don't top post.


Kind regards


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Re: Good news on claws-mail

[Scott Ferguson]

On 21/10/14 05:42, Don Armstrong wrote:
> On Mon, 20 Oct 2014, Scott Ferguson wrote:
>> The . Don't you think?
> 
> This is off topic for -user. Please take it to private e-mail if you
> must continue.
> 


Agreed, and I regret it.
My sincerest apologies to the list.

Kind regards


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Re: Debian fork

[Jerry Stuckle]

On 10/20/2014 6:48 PM, Martinx - ジェームズ wrote:
> If this Debian Fork doesn't make use of:
> 
> systemd
> dbus
> pam
> gnome
> 
> And uses EFL + E19, then, I'm in!
> 
> I'm sure that there is room for a new distro, that will sit in the
> middle of Debian 7 and Slackware...   ;-)
> 
> Cheers!
> 

I have no problem with pam - I use it for several different
authentications.  But systemd I can definitely do without.

Jerry


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Re: If Not Systemd, then What?

[Scott Ferguson]

Good question Patrick - top posted as I'm referring to the Subject.

On 21/10/14 06:45, Patrick Bartek wrote:
> After much vitriolic gnashing of teeth from those opposed to systemd,
> I wonder...  What is a better alternative?  And it can't be sysvinit.
> 
> Yes.  Syvinit still works, but it is after all 20 years old. It's been
> patched and bolted onto and jury-rigged to get it to do things that
> weren't even around (or dreamt of) at its inception.  It's long past
> due for a contemporary replacement.  Whatever that may be.
> 
> So, what would you all propose?  For a server?  Or for a user desktop?
> Or something that fulfills both scenarios?  And why?


One of the difficulties is that there is no clear distinction between a
desktop and a server - just degrees.

> 
> Just wondering.
> 
> 
> B
> 
> 

I suspect, despite my interest in the subject, this would be better on
the off-topic list.
If that sounds hypocritical, perhaps it is - but I see it as acceptance
that I've been wrong before.


Kind regards


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Re: If Not Systemd, then What?

[Steve Litt]

On Mon, 20 Oct 2014 12:45:11 -0700
Patrick Bartek  wrote:

> After much vitriolic gnashing of teeth from those opposed to systemd,
> I wonder...  What is a better alternative?  

* Nosh
* Runit
* Upstart
* S6
* Probably more I don't know about.

> And it can't be sysvinit.
> 
> Yes.  Syvinit still works, but it is after all 20 years old. It's been
> patched and bolted onto and jury-rigged

Nobody's arguing for sysvinit as a long term solution, for the exact
reasons you post above. Those of us who appeared to favor sysvinit were
saying "let's wait until we have something good." We also pointed out
the false choice of prematurely narrowing it to systemd, Upstart or
sysvinit.

Now of course, the systemd cabal will argue that we can't wait any
longer. My question to them is, why was sysvinit not a dire emergency
until Red Hat's systemd juggernaut came along, and then all of a
sudden we just couldn't wait?

SteveT

Steve Litt*  http://www.troubleshooters.com/
Troubleshooting Training  *  Human Performance


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Re: If Not Systemd, then What?

[Lee Winter]

On Mon, Oct 20, 2014 at 3:45 PM, Patrick Bartek  wrote:

> After much vitriolic gnashing of teeth from those opposed to systemd,
> I wonder...  What is a better alternative?  And it can't be sysvinit.
>
> Yes.  Syvinit still works, but it is after all 20 years old. It's been
> patched and bolted onto and jury-rigged to get it to do things that
> weren't even around (or dreamt of) at its inception.  It's long past
> due for a contemporary replacement.  Whatever that may be.
>
> So, what would you all propose?  For a server?  Or for a user desktop?
> Or something that fulfills both scenarios?  And why?
>
> Just wondering.
>

One key component of an effective startup process is dependency handling.
So why not look for one of the best as a model?  I suggest DJB's redo
system.  It is excruciatingly simple.  But very effective.  And it is the
opposite of monolithic.

But the real answer to this question will be found in the specs for the
better system.  So someone needs to go through the specs for both sysv-init
and its competitors marking features to keep and features to kill.  Then
the real discussion will begin.

Lee Winter
Nashua, New Hampshire
United States of America

Re: If Not Systemd, then What?

[Marty]

On 10/20/2014 03:45 PM, Patrick Bartek wrote:

After much vitriolic gnashing of teeth from those opposed to systemd,
I wonder...  What is a better alternative?  And it can't be sysvinit.


One that doesn't divide the FOSS world. We have enough challenges 
without that.



Yes.  Syvinit still works, but it is after all 20 years old. It's been
patched and bolted onto and jury-rigged to get it to do things that
weren't even around (or dreamt of) at its inception.  It's long past
due for a contemporary replacement.  Whatever that may be.


Whichever one the user wants is the best. The users should decide, 
individually and collectively. The distro should be the testbed for new 
ideas, with users trying out and choosing solutions that work best for 
them. Debian should not make that choice for users. "Upstreams" should 
not make that choice for Debian.


This is official Debian Policy but some people seem upset about it.
I don't understand antipathy toward user choice, especially here. I 
sometimes wonder if they have lost sight of the purpose of FOSS, which 
would be sad, because they (especially volunteers) have given us so much 
in the name of software freedom. They have changed the world.


I hope this just a misunderstanding that gets cleared up after the dust 
settles and everyone starts talking again, instead of just yelling at 
each other. I hope some people change their minds about the importance 
of user choice. I hope Ian Jackson stops being bitter. :)



So, what would you all propose?  For a server?  Or for a user desktop?
Or something that fulfills both scenarios?  And why?


We all should be able to propose our ideal solution with a reasonable 
expectation that if it's a good idea, and somebody does the work, it 
could be adopted and help other people, without being unduly hindered by 
a software bundle laying exclusive claim to PID 1. That is the unique 
gate-keeper spot in all systems, and it's probably why the policy pays 
special attention to it. That button belongs to me, the  user. Hands off 
my computer at its most vulnerable spot.



Just wondering.


Me too.



B





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Re: If Not Systemd, then What?

[Martinx - ジェームズ]

1- Fork udev (out from systemd's tree or before it got merged / engulfed);
2- Start testing uselessd;
3- Remove systemd from Debian sources, since it is uselessd now  lol ;

I vote for upstart too (instead of uselessd), since I'm using without any
problems (and it is not trying to take over the world).

I believe (because I'm not a software engineer), that the main problem with
systemd started when they merged udev. That was a smart move (for Them)
but, there is time to take udev back and use another init, as good old days.

Jut my two bitcents...

On 20 October 2014 17:45, Patrick Bartek  wrote:

> After much vitriolic gnashing of teeth from those opposed to systemd,
> I wonder...  What is a better alternative?  And it can't be sysvinit.
>
> Yes.  Syvinit still works, but it is after all 20 years old. It's been
> patched and bolted onto and jury-rigged to get it to do things that
> weren't even around (or dreamt of) at its inception.  It's long past
> due for a contemporary replacement.  Whatever that may be.
>
> So, what would you all propose?  For a server?  Or for a user desktop?
> Or something that fulfills both scenarios?  And why?
>
> Just wondering.
>
>
> B
>
>
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>
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Re: If Not Systemd, then What?

[Jimmy Johnson]

On 10/20/2014 12:45 PM, Patrick Bartek wrote:

After much vitriolic gnashing of teeth from those opposed to systemd,
I wonder...  What is a better alternative?  And it can't be sysvinit.


sysvinit will do just fine until other init-systems can be developed and 
installed from the repos.



Yes.  Syvinit still works, but it is after all 20 years old. It's been
patched and bolted onto and jury-rigged to get it to do things that
weren't even around (or dreamt of) at its inception.  It's long past
due for a contemporary replacement.  Whatever that may be.


You sound like my X-wife.


So, what would you all propose?  For a server?  Or for a user desktop?
Or something that fulfills both scenarios?  And why?

Just wondering.


See above and unless you are a tester or developer you may want to 
roll-back to Squeeze.

--
Jimmy Johnson

Debian Squeeze - KDE 4.4.5 - AMD64 - EXT4 at sda11
Registered Linux User #380263


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Re: Debian fork

[Martinx - ジェームズ]

Me too Jerry...

I'm fine with PAM, I use pam-automount, pam-sssd, pam-nss, and a few other
things... My only intention was to point the other side of this
"spectrum"... I'm seeing that Slackware is there, far away from Debian (and
happy)... And now Debian is getting too close to RedHat (never like it),
so, disabling it (or removing it - PAM) was just an idea to show a point of
view, so people can see the two extremes more easily...

Like this:

"Linux Distro Spectrum"

redhat (shit, shit, shit) <-> debian (dbus, pam, systemd, systemd-udev)
<--> slackware (no dbus, no
pam, no systemd, udev optional? I don't know for sure)...


We need to "pull" Debian away from RedHat, if not, why not just use RedHat
instead?! I'm with Debian because I do NOT like RedHat and its "derivatives
/ ideas / stuff / things". Now that Debian is becoming a RedHat-Like distro
through this systemd-scam (but with dpkg, instead of rpm), Debian is
loosing its point, its meaning of existence (at least for me, it is, and
I'm not alone thinking about this).

We cannot let that happen! Can we?!

My problem with systemd started when they engulfed udev and "transformed"
it into "systemd-udev" (pure marketing), now, we'll need to take udev back.
Otherwise, systemd, because of udev, *will be a requiremen*t, like it or
not. Even Slackware, if its users really uses udev, it will require systemd
sources there.

So, if we take udev back, a light appears at the end of the tunnel.

If systemd was just like uselessd, awesome ideas and minimal / sane base,
cgroups process support and etc, slim-based design, if you know what I
mean, then, I would like to make the init switch! *Au contraire*, if
systemd is an elephant in the room, *and it is*, everybody knows that,
then, no, thanks. I don't want it. If I needed CoreOS, then, I was using it.

The entire point of a "INIT Replacement" debate was supposed to be JUST
that, a init replacement decision. But systemd isn't just a new init system
(uselessd seems to be, think about it). Instead, it is spreading itself
into Debian in a very disturbing way. Totally outside of the "init system"
scope. Something definitely is wrong...

I'm fine with uselessd + new udev. Wouldn't that be enough?!

Best!
Thiago

On 20 October 2014 23:46, Jerry Stuckle  wrote:

> On 10/20/2014 6:48 PM, Martinx - ジェームズ wrote:
> > If this Debian Fork doesn't make use of:
> >
> > systemd
> > dbus
> > pam
> > gnome
> >
> > And uses EFL + E19, then, I'm in!
> >
> > I'm sure that there is room for a new distro, that will sit in the
> > middle of Debian 7 and Slackware...   ;-)
> >
> > Cheers!
> >
>
> I have no problem with pam - I use it for several different
> authentications.  But systemd I can definitely do without.
>
> Jerry
>
>
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>

Re: Refracta systemd-free progress

[Gary Dale]

On 20/10/14 08:39 PM, goli...@riseup.net wrote:
Check out the outstanding progress that fsmithred and dzz are making 
with a systemd-free Refracta:


http://refracta.freeforums.org/going-with-the-systemd-flow-or-not-t422-50.html#p4085 



http://refracta.freeforums.org/going-with-the-systemd-flow-or-not-t422-60.html#p4086 



Kudos to them!! Looking forward to giving this a spin before too long.


If it makes you happy. Freedom of choice is one benefit of Linux. 
Personally, I like systemd and the fast boots it provides, plus the ease 
of administration.



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