Re: Stus-List Rudder lubrication Landfall 38

[Jeffrey A. Laman via CnC-List]

Torresen Marine mechanic in Muskegon Michigan recommended "Green Grease" to me 
this past summer.  It's a synthetic, waterproof grease (and it is green) that 
you can get about anywhere.  Torresen didn't have it in stock, but West Marine 
store down the road had a waterproof, synthetic grease that I purchased and 
used with success (one half summer experience to date).  Unfortunately I don't 
have the brand of the WM grease.  It is blue.

Jeff Laman
C&C34 "Harmony"
Ludington, MI




From: billbr...@ns.sympatico.ca 
Sent: Tuesday, November 5, 2019 7:53 AM
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com 
Subject: Re: Stus-List Rudder lubrication Landfall 38

I use super lube synthetic grease on the rudder bearing. My LF38 has a grease 
nipple at the lower bearing with a hose attached...the hose is routed over to 
the stbd lazerette  and has another grease nipple attached to it. This setup 
allows me to easily grease the rudder from the lazerette.

  Bill Bruce
LF 38
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cnc-list@cnc-list.com

[Jeffrey A. Laman via CnC-List]

Ludington Yacht Club, along the east shore of L. Michigan has had a very 
difficult time with water levels this year and last.  If the water continues to 
rise, it will close the club.  The docks are floating, but the LYC grounds 
around the building are flooded.  The parking lot has been raised maybe 18 
inches, but on some days floods.  The club was closed for several weeks at the 
beginning of the summer due to water threatening electrical panels and backing 
up sewage.  Both have been remedied.  Access to the docks and building  from 
the parking lot has been via newly constructed (temporary?) 30ft to 50ft 
walkways built about 2.5 feet above grade (flooded by at least a foot of 
water).  If the water rises much more, the club will have to close.

Another poster indicated this is all due to lack of evaporation and cold temps 
resulting in ice cover.  That's half the equation.  The L. Mich drainage basin 
received excessive rainfall this past summer which drove up water levels.  So, 
two factors -- rain and evaporation.

This has been great for the shallow channels that the Army Corp won't dredge 
due to recreational use only, but not good for a lot of docks.  There has also 
been increased danger for swimmers and folks walking out on piers -- the waves 
wash over the concrete piers with very little wind.

Jeff Laman
C&C34 "Harmony"
Ludington, MI


From: CHARLES SCHEAFFER 
Sent: Saturday, November 23, 2019 3:30 PM
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com 
Subject: Re: Stus-List Great Lakes water levels...for C&Cs

FWIW, Toronto had flooded docks when I was there in July because of unusually 
high water levels.

Chuck, Resolute, C&C 34R, Pasadena, Md

On November 23, 2019 at 9:42 AM "Matthew L. Wolford via CnC-List" 
 wrote:

We are having problems on Lake Erie.  Portions of the Erie Yacht Club grounds 
were under water this spring and summer.  Even when the level dropped toward 
the end of the season, a strong breeze will change local levels and create a 
problem.  During the storm on October 31, the difference in lake level between 
Toledo and Buffalo was 14 feet.

From: pete.shelquist--- via CnC-List
Sent: Saturday, November 23, 2019 6:34 AM
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
Cc: pete.shelqu...@comcast.net
Subject: Re: Stus-List Great Lakes water levels...for C&Cs


We have record high water levels on Western Lake Superior and I understand 
others in the great lakes are experiencing the same if not worse.   With the 
forecast unclear if this water level is a new normal or cyclical, and the fixed 
docks at our club nearing max height, I’m wondering what other clubs are 
experiencing, expecting going forward and what measures you are implementing to 
accommodate?






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Re: Stus-List 1981 C&C 34 - second propane locker?

[Jeffrey A. Laman via CnC-List]

My 1981 C&C34 has a starboard propane tank locker/compartment and a port 
compartment.  The port locker could be used for whatever was convenient -- 
spare propane tank is one possible use.  I keep cleaning supplies and pee 
bottle.  It is such a simple locker that it seems unlikely to have been an 
option.  Look for hinges -- I bet another poster is correct that it got painted 
or somehow stuck shut.  Maybe you'll find riches inside when you get it open!

Jeff Laman
1981 C&C34 "Harmony"
Ludington, MI


From: DMcMillan 
Sent: Tuesday, February 18, 2020 10:43 PM
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com 
Subject: Stus-List 1981 C&C 34 - second propane locker?


My 1981 C&C 34 has a propane locker on the starboard side of the helm seat.  
The locker has a hinged lid.  On the port side of the helm seat there is a 
similar seat but the “lid” does not open.  Has anyone opened this up and 
utilized the space for storage?



Thanks.

Dennis

Victoria, BC
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Re: Stus-List wire-to-rope vs rope

[Jeffrey A. Laman via CnC-List]

Joe --

When I purchased the 1981 C&C34 in late 2017 it had what was likely original 
halyards -- wire to rope halyards -- main and jib.  I purchased a new wire rope 
main halyard for the start of 2018 because the sheave setup required wire.  I 
replaced the jib with all line the beginning of 2018.  When I took the jib down 
at the end of the 2018 season the jib halyard was quite chewed up.  So, I 
purchased a wire to rope jib halyard to install beginning of 2019.  But, the 
story continues --  I immediately got a wrap of the halyard around the 
forestay, broke some of the wires, kinked it, made a mess.  So, cut off the 
messed up section of the wire and raised the jib a bit so the wrap would not 
occur.  All has been well.

I think the reason the all rope halyard was so chewed up is that it was also 
wrapping around the forestay and I didn't realize it.  Not sure if any of this 
helps, but another story to consider.  I have no reason to go back to the all 
rope jib halyard to test my theory so will leave it as is.

Jeff Laman
1981 C&C34 "Harmony"
Ludington, MI


From: Della Barba, Joe 
Sent: Wednesday, March 11, 2020 11:01 AM
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com 
Subject: Stus-List wire-to-rope vs rope


My wire to rope jib halyard dates back to the 1980s and has some nasty meat 
hooks. I have several all rope halyards that were given to me and have sat 
inside my shed for years. I used the old wire halyard to pull one through and 
my original thought was to get another one made. This does raise an obvious 
question – why not just use the rope?

My fear is that since the sail usually only comes down once a year if that, the 
rope will get chewed through on the masthead shiv. Is this an issue?





Joe Della Barba Coquina C&C 35  MK I

www.dellabarba.com




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Re: Stus-List [EXTERNAL] Dripless shaft seal for 35 mkIII

[Jeffrey A. Laman via CnC-List]

Lots of opinions abundantly expressed previously regarding pros and cons of 
dripless vs stuffing box.

As for installation of dripless, those who have dripless might help Joe out?

I replaced everything -- coupling, shaft, dripless, cutlass bearing.  The shaft 
and coupling need to be machined at the same time for proper fit.  My shaft was 
badly damaged due to coupling failure, so the decision to replace all was easy. 
 Others might attempt to get away with reuse.  Up to you, but read the advice.

Removing the cutlass bearing can be a real challenge, but never do the job 
without replacing this.  The opportunity doesn't present itself often -- and be 
glad.  You can make a tool to get the old bearing out.  There are all kinds of 
youtube videos and advice on this.  Press fit also so need to put the bearing 
on ice first.

I did the job myself -- heated the coupling, cooled the shaft, slid the shaft 
in, tap tap to get it correctly positioned, and tightened it down.  Make sure 
you have all the parts on the shaft, everything checked and double checked 
before you slide the shaft into the coupling -- it's not coming back out.

And my 2 cents -- the dripless is one of the best improvements I made to the 
boat.  Do it!

Jeff Laman
1981 C&C34 "Harmony"
Ludington, MI



Check alignment of the shaft very carefully.






From: David Risch 
Sent: Wednesday, April 15, 2020 4:17 PM
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com 
Subject: Re: Stus-List [EXTERNAL] Dripless shaft seal for 35 mkIII

Cheaper and simpler to go with modern packing materials with old 
school.stuffing box.

Sent from my Android. Please forgive typos. Thank you.


From: CnC-List  on behalf of Della Barba, Joe 
via CnC-List 
Sent: Wednesday, April 15, 2020 10:38:09 AM
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com 
Cc: Della Barba, Joe 
Subject: Re: Stus-List [EXTERNAL] Dripless shaft seal for 35 mkIII

I have one and I like it, but given modern Teflon packing materials you might 
want to look at that as well. The dripless seals can have nasty failure modes.


Joe Della Barba Coquina C&C 35  MK I
www.dellabarba.com


-Original Message-
From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of Gary Newton 
via CnC-List
Sent: Wednesday, April 15, 2020 9:55 AM
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
Cc: Gary Newton 
Subject: [EXTERNAL] Stus-List Dripless shaft seal for 35 mkIII

I am looking for information on installing a dripless shaft seal on my 35 MK 
III. Looking for shaft log size on other 35 MK III’s and any problems 
encountered with installation.
Gary Newton
1987 35’ MK III
SV KNOT RIGHT

Sent from my iPad
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Stus-List Keel bolts comment/question

[Jeffrey A. Laman via CnC-List]

Hi Charlie,


In answer to your questions:


Yes, keel bolts can be tightened while the boat is in the water or on a cradle. 
 Intuitively, many have suggested that the boat needs to be on a cradle with 
the keel supported so the keel is not "hanging".  However, a calculation of 
loads and forces indicates that the difference in bolt force between in the 
water and out is on the order of 5% -- doesn't really matter all that much.  
The total bolt pretension (summing all bolt forces due to the torque) is on the 
order of 80,000 to 100,000 lbs (depending on bolt sizes of course).  The idea 
that the 5000 lb. keel is "hanging" is misleading.


Purpose of the pretensioning is to close the joint and keep it closed under 
load (boat heeling).


Over torquing, as you note, could cause any number of problems -- pullout of 
bolts from keel, thread damage, crushing of fiberglass, or overstressing of the 
bolt (yielding).  Fracture, if the bolt is not compromised by corrosion, would 
be very unlikely -- too much torque required, as well as a large bolt 
elongation.


Depending on the rate of leak, decide whether to wait or do it now.  If you 
have the tools, tighten now.  I see no need to ground the boat for this -- you 
really only gain about 5% reduction in the torque for all that risk.  The 
margin of error in the determination of the torque is much larger than 5%.


Jeff Laman

1981 C&C34 "Harmony"

Ludington, MI

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Stus-List Prepping for 35-1 Keel Bolts/Smile Fix

[Jeffrey A. Laman via CnC-List]

Regarding bolt torque and corresponding bolt pretension: there seems to be some 
misunderstanding about bolt torque.  Worries about stripping threads when boat 
is in the water, thinking about lifting the keel up, must do it on the hard, 
etc.


Just as an example for the sake of discussion, let's consider a 1" diameter, 
316 bolt

  *   Fy = 30 ksi = 30,000 psi (yield strength)
  *   Fu = 75 ksi = 75,000 psi (fracture strength)
  *   Area = 0.79 in2
  *   Area through threads approx 0.60 in2

The correlation between torque and bolt pretension is not high due to the many 
factors involved, but generally, a commonly used approximate relationship is as 
follows:

T = (K x D x P)/12

K is a torque or friction coefficient, D is diameter, P is pretension force.  K 
= 0.20 would be common.  Rearranging the above to solve for pretension:

P  = 12T/(KD)

Lets also presume, again for discussion, that the 1" dia 316 bolt is 
pretensioned to 60% of yield.  That means the pretension force:

P = (0.60) x 30,000 psi x 0.60 in2 = 10,800 lbs

T = (0.2 x 1" x 10,800)/12 = 180 ft-lbs

Which is certainly in the torque range suggested in recent posts.

Let's take these numbers, again for discussion and consider a boat with (8) 1" 
diameter keel bolts.  The pretension total would be:

8 bolts x 10,800 lbs/bolt = 86,400 lbs.

The weight of the keel (4000 lbs?  6000 lbs?) is not particularly significant 
-- it's within the margin of error of this entire calculation and then some. 
Observations:


  *   Concerns about lifting the keel and causing damage are unwarranted
  *   Doesn't matter much at all whether the boat is in the water or in the 
cradle
  *   Bolt torque is the torque is the torque -- it doesn't matter if the boat 
is in the water or not relative to stripping the threads.

Sorry for the very long post, but wanted to help out with some of the 
discussion.  I intend to torque my keep bolts this spring and have read the 
posts on this subject with interest.

Best,
Jeff Laman
1981 C&C34 "Harmony"
Ludington, MI

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Re: Stus-List Bolts, nuts and torque

[Jeffrey A. Laman via CnC-List]

Torque is not affected in this case by deformation of the extension or other 
hardware at all. Zero.  Torque is force x moment arm length.

Jeff Laman
1981 C&C34 "Harmony"
Ludington, Mi


From: David Miles 
Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2019 7:33 PM
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
Subject: Re: Stus-List Bolts, nuts and torque


I could be wrong, but don’t you also have to allow for the torque/flex of the 
extension, therefore if you have a listed 250# value to be measured, you add 
the 15# rating of the extension, making your goal readout at a new number of 
265#s? I am only guessing at the extension value. Need to check ours as well, 
but this thought comes to mind from many years ago. Would like to know if it 
has merit or not.



From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of David via 
CnC-List
Sent: February-21-19 3:35 PM
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
Cc: David
Subject: Re: Stus-List Bolts, nuts and torque



Renting a large torque wrench is a easy solution...

>From my Android





From: CnC-List 
mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com>> on behalf 
of Charlie Nelson via CnC-List 
mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>>
Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2019 5:46:47 PM
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
Cc: cenel...@aol.com
Subject: Re: Stus-List Bolts, nuts and torque



Thanks for chiming in Josh. I like not buying a multiplier!



Will have a look for a 250 ft-lb wrench etc. and review your video.



Good catch on the the stud size—my msmt was with a ruler across the stud but 
was likely across the inside of the thread groove—plus 7/8” seems a little 
strange for such a large stud. The flats on the nut were much easier to measure.



I like your ft-lb numbers since they are consistent with what I found for SS 
and reachable without a multiplier.



Thanks again,



Charlie

Sent from AOL Mobile Mail
Get the new AOL app: mail.mobile.aol.com



On Thursday, February 21, 2019, Josh Muckley via CnC-List 
mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>> wrote:



Look in the description section of the  video for useful links.



https://youtu.be/n6B0IPKQERc



If the flats of the nut are at 1-1/2 inch then the studs are 1 inch and you're 
looking at roughly 230 to 250 ft-lbs lubricated torque value.  A large torque 
wrench from Home Depot or Lowes should max out at 250.  It will almost 
certainly be 1/2 inch drive.  Operating any torque wrench at its high limit is 
always difficult... But doable.  I would probably try to save myself the money 
on a torque multiplier and just get the biggest torque wrench and 1/2" drive 
extensions and a 1/2 inch drive, deep, 6 point, 1-1/2" socket.



Josh Muckley

S/V Sea Hawk

1989 C&C 37+

Solomons, MD







On Thu, Feb 21, 2019, 1:41 PM Charlie Nelson via CnC-List 
mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote:



It appears per list comments that it is OK to tighten my keel/centerboard 
'trunk' without putting her on the hard. Since I can reach most of the nuts by 
removing the cabin sole, I figure its worth a try. I cannot reach the bolts 
under the mast this way but I can probably get to most of the others. My 
keel/cb trunk is pretty wide so there are 2 rows of bolts/nuts holding it to 
the hull.



My guess is that I have 8-12 pairs of bolts and those that I can see are 7/8" 
diameter with nuts that are 1 1/2" across and appear to be stainless steel. 
BTW, my keel/cb trunk and board weigh-in at about 5600 lbs per the original 
specs.



A quick internet search on torque wrenches, multipliers and torque values with 
my bilge depth in mind indicates that I will need a 1 1/2" socket with an 
extension of ~ 12 inches and maybe a torque multiplier, depending on the torque 
required.



List sources suggest torques of over 200 ft-lbs are required and most common 
torque wrenches top out at 150 ft-lbs thus the multiplier. My quick look at 
recommended torques vs. SS (18-8) bolt sizes indicates 193-195 ft-lbs is 
recommended for my bolts which is consistent with values I have seen on the 
list and the C&C photo album, although a little on the low end.



OTOH, I might be able to use a bigger/longer torque wrench without the 
multiplier.



Either way, I am not certain of what drive size to either rent/borrow or 
buy--and the cost is substantial if you go from the 'standard' 1/2" drive to 
3/4" or higher.



Questions for the list:



1. Are my torque values ~ 200 ft-lbs within the ballpark? I seem to remember 
some list recommendations at ~ 350 ft-lbs!



2. Also, what is a reasonable drive size to use?



3. Should I just go with a larger torque wrench (which will reach the ft-lbs 
required without the multiplier)?



4. Any likely issues with not tightening the bolts under the mast until my 
haul-out this summer?



TIA



Charlie Nelson

Water Phantom

1995 C&C 36 XL/kcb

















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Thanks everyone for supp

Stus-List soft shackles

[Jeffrey A. Laman via CnC-List]

This video is what I use to make soft shackles:

http://l-36.com/soft_shackle_howto.php

Get some Dyneema, make one, and give it a try.  Alternatively, order from ebay:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Blue-5-16-Soft-Shackles-ATV-Winch-Shackle-Synthetic-Rope-Shackle/132776705341?hash=item1eea1bbd3d:g:pSMAAOSw~BRcApxk:rk:4:pf:0

I don't recall if this is the one I ordered, but the soft shackle I got on ebay 
as an experiment was fine -- dyneema and well made.  Just had to tighten up the 
knot some.  Price is right.

To speed up the opening of the shackle, you can add a small pull cord.

Jeff Laman
1981 C&C34 "Harmony"
Ludington, MI


From: Morgan Ellis 
Sent: Tuesday, March 5, 2019 11:47 AM
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
Subject: Re: Stus-List soft shackles

Hi Josh, Thanks for the feedback, and great video! I believe my friend had used 
the conventional Y-style soft shackle design made from Dyneema. I like the look 
of your's much better (see a better soft shackle, 
http://l-36.com/soft_shackle_9.php) as there is no need to try to milk the 
cover back to open the shackle, and leaving some short tails on, to have 
something to grab would help as well. Another thing I picked up from your video 
is that even though very small diameter Dyneema would be strong enough, by 
using a bit larger size the shackle would be easier to work with, especially 
with gloves on.
(BTW nice spring line set up!)

Regards,

Morgan
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Stus-List 34 genoa sheets

[Jeffrey A. Laman via CnC-List]

1/2" is the original size for C&C34.  Replaced mine with same a year ago.  The 
size depends on what winches you use and what feels good to your hands.  Most 
boats have had the winches switched out over their life  so it's possible the 
1/2" doesn't match with the winch 37 years later.

When you order, have an eye spliced on each end for the soft shackle.  Or, if 
you haven't done it, do it yourself -- splicing is a very useful skill to have 
and not difficult to learn.

Jeff Laman
1981 C&C34 "Harmony"
Ludington, MI


From: John and Maryann Read 
Sent: Friday, April 5, 2019 7:15 AM
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
Subject: Stus-List 34 genoa sheets


Am replacing genoa sheets but uncertain of correct size.   Currently use ½ inch 
but seem a bit oversize.  Plan to get Sta set or similar with soft shackle.  
What size do other 34 / 33 owners use?





John and Maryann

Legacy III

1982 C&C 34

Noank, CT




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Re: Stus-List Offshore boat - lost in translation/ now buy the freaking boat!

[Jeffrey A. Laman via CnC-List]

Excellent advice from Bruno.  A bit like real estate and location, location, 
location.  You can make a 29 or 30 footer really great with upgrades and 
spending money.  But, you can never turn it into a 36 footer no matter how much 
you spend.  And, you can't move a house to a better location either.

Jeff Laman
81 C&C34, "Harmony" (former ComPac 19II, former Paceship PY26..)
Ludington, MI




From: Bruno Lachance 
Sent: Sunday, April 28, 2019 1:07 AM
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
Subject: Re: Stus-List Offshore boat - lost in translation/ now buy the 
freaking boat!

Shawn,

Yes the CS36 T is a very good boat, built like a tank and a very descent 
performer in its deep draft version. The 27 is a good 27 but not as fast as a 
C&C and the CS30 is a nice option compared to a C&C 29 mkII, but not in the 
league of the CS36 in my opinion.

But the 36 T hold their value quite well and I would be surprise that you find 
a good one in your budget.

I have been following your journey here with interest. You remind me of myself 
when I was looking to find my first boat in 2008. You want to make a good 
choice, you don't want to make a mistake, I'm sure you spend long hours reading 
stuff all night, you seem highly interested in everything sailing but also seem 
really anxious about the process. It's normal. At this point I would go back to 
Mike Hoyt post few days ago. Your budget is low and you won't find a perfect 35 
ft at that price. So you must establish your priorities my friend. Some people 
here told you to get a smaller cheaper boat that is sail away ready. That's a 
very valid option to consider. But you seem to know that you want a "bigger" 
boat. So if you think the 35-2 is right for you, stop overthinking it and buy 
the freaking boat! It won't be perfect, no boat is perfect! Even if you find 
one that looks good and is more expensive, trust me you will find things that 
need to be fixed or upgraded. These are old boats. At least, if you know you 
want a 35-36 footer, the time and money you will put in your new toy will not 
be lost. As is if you get a 27-29 ft boat, you will still have to put $ in her 
and in 2 years, when you decide to upgrade, you will never get that $ back. 
Instead you will have an old 27-29 ft boat for sale and back to square one 
looking for the right 35-2.

My advice, if the 35-2 you are looking has good bones, the rig looks good, the 
sails are ok, buy it! You seem to have spent enough time evaluating that boat 
and doing your homework so you should know. Then do like the rest of us and 
plan for a yearly maintenance and upgrade budget of a few boat bucks. It's how 
it works, there is no special trick to it and no unicorn ! So between paying 19 
000 or 21 500$, it does not really matters if you like the boat. Welcome to 
boat ownership!

Hope that helps. Sometimes we just need a little push to go forward.

Good luck

Bruno Lachance
C&C 29 mkII from 2008 to 2011 that I sold to get our 33-2. Never looked back!
Bécassine
New Richmond, Qc

Envoyé de mon iPad

> Le 27 avr. 2019 à 22:30, Shawn Wright via CnC-List  a 
> écrit :
>
> Interesting you mention the CS36... the T version designed by Ray Wall is 
> very high on my list of boats that seem to tick all the right boxes, and one 
> that I might stretch our budget for. There is a cluster of CS boats are a 
> local marina - three 36Ts and two 30s, but none for sale. I've only been 
> aboard the CS27, which is not bad for a 27, but I'd like a but more space for 
> extended cruising. The 30 is in our price range, but reportedly not as solid 
> as the 36, and not nearly as nice to look at, imho.
>
>
>
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Stus-List Re: filling holes in coachtop

[Jeffrey A. Laman via CnC-List]

If deck is cored, I suggest using penetrating epoxy, not thickened.  The 
penetrating epoxy will soak into the core and there will be much lower 
propability of air bubbles in the fill.   Leave the top of the hole about 1/16" 
low from deck then finish with gel coat.

Jeff L.



From: svrebeccaleah via CnC-List 
Sent: Friday, August 27, 2021 12:15 PM
To: Stus-List 
Cc: svrebeccaleah 
Subject: Stus-List Re: filling holes in coachtop

Counter sink top and bottom, tape over bottom of hole. Then fill with thickened 
epoxy. I go for about the consistency of ketchup. Without the counter sink. It 
will crack over time.

Doug



Sent from my T-Mobile 4G LTE Device


 Original message 
From: Wade Glew via CnC-List 
Date: 8/27/21 09:00 (GMT-08:00)
To: Stus-List 
Cc: Wade Glew 
Subject: Stus-List filling holes in coachtop

Hi all,

On my 33-MK 2, I want to move the coach top winches about 12-18 inches from 
their current location.   The site I'm moving them to is a designated location 
by design and the coach top is round and flat in the new location to allow a 
winch placement.   My question is, can I just fill the old holes with 
unthickened epoxy or   what would be recommended?

thanks for your thoughts


Wade
Oh Boy, 33 MK 2
Thanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help with the 
costs involved.  If you want to show your support to the list - use PayPal to 
send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray  Thanks - Stu

Stus-List Re: filling holes in coachtop

[Jeffrey A. Laman via CnC-List]

Just tape the hole.

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From: Dave S via CnC-List 
Sent: Friday, August 27, 2021 2:53:29 PM
To: Stus-List 
Cc: Dave S 
Subject: Stus-List Re: filling holes in coachtop

100%, +  mask over the top before you countersink.   If you have a small 
syringe, you can inject the material which is a little bit easier.

Dave


On Fri, 27 Aug 2021 at 12:16, svrebeccaleah via CnC-List 
mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>> wrote:
Counter sink top and bottom, tape over bottom of hole. Then fill with thickened 
epoxy. I go for about the consistency of ketchup. Without the counter sink. It 
will crack over time.

Doug



Sent from my T-Mobile 4G LTE Device


 Original message 
From: Wade Glew via CnC-List 
mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>>
Date: 8/27/21 09:00 (GMT-08:00)
To: Stus-List mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>>
Cc: Wade Glew mailto:wadeg...@gmail.com>>
Subject: Stus-List filling holes in coachtop

Hi all,

On my 33-MK 2, I want to move the coach top winches about 12-18 inches from 
their current location.   The site I'm moving them to is a designated location 
by design and the coach top is round and flat in the new location to allow a 
winch placement.   My question is, can I just fill the old holes with 
unthickened epoxy or   what would be recommended?

thanks for your thoughts


Wade
Oh Boy, 33 MK 2
Thanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help with the 
costs involved.  If you want to show your support to the list - use PayPal to 
send contribution --   
https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
  Thanks - Stu
Thanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help with the 
costs involved.  If you want to show your support to the list - use PayPal to 
send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray  Thanks - Stu

Stus-List Re: engine oil amount

[Jeffrey A. Laman via CnC-List]

Had similar issue on my Yanmar 3GM. I attached a 15" piece of copper tubing to 
the end of the plastic tubing. Problem solved and extracted all the oil.

Get Outlook for Android

From: John Christopher via CnC-List 
Sent: Sunday, October 31, 2021 5:44:30 PM
To: Stus-List ; G Gao 
Cc: John Christopher 
Subject: Stus-List Re: engine oil amount

I had the same issue and surprise. In my case I was pushing too much of the 
extract hose down the dipstick opening and it would coil up in the pan where 
the opening of the hose was not facing / touching the bottom of the pan. It 
could have also run up the side of the pan internally (too small to see :))

I straightened my extract hose and pushed it down and got all of the oil out 
(4.5 liters).

My extract hose is a little stiff so all I did was tape a s screw driver on the 
end for weight, held it up and used my heat gun. I cooled it off with a wet rag.

I also wrapped a piece of tape around the extract hose so next time I know :).


/John
LF 38, #155, Ontario

On Oct 31, 2021, at 5:31 PM, G Gao via CnC-List  wrote:


Universal Diesel 5424 here. According to the manual, this engine has 5.6QT of 
engine oil. Last season and today, both times I use oil extractor through the 
dipstick hole, could only get a little over 3 quarters out.

Is this normal, or am I not doing it right?

thx in advance.

Bo


--
1974 C&C 35 MK2
Thanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help with the 
costs involved.  If you want to show your support to the list - use PayPal to 
send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray  Thanks - Stu
Thanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help with the 
costs involved.  If you want to show your support to the list - use PayPal to 
send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray  Thanks - Stu

Stus-List Re: Edson Steering Sheave Assembly Bolt Failure.

[Jeffrey A. Laman via CnC-List]

C&C Listers,
I have only been casually following this thread, but just a short comment.  My 
pedestal bolts are SS and in fresh water of L. Mich.  Might have been PO who 
replaced? No issues.  Aluminum is actually a very reactive metal.  This is a 
good discussion for a chemist, but if exposed to salt water, it would seem that 
aluminum bolts are not the best choice.  If there is concern about the 
dissimilar metals of the pedestal and bolts, isolate with nylon washers.  My 2 
cents.
Jeff Laman
1981 C&C34 "Harmony"
Ludington, MI


From: CHARLES SCHEAFFER via CnC-List 
Sent: Saturday, November 20, 2021 10:38 AM
To: Stus-List 
Cc: John McCrea ; CHARLES SCHEAFFER 

Subject: Stus-List Re: Edson Steering Sheave Assembly Bolt Failure.

Not sure why the the aluminum failed.  It sounds like it became an anode 
somehow.

In 2015, I replaced our pedestal bolts and nuts with aluminum ones from Edson.  
On our model, the hex head of the bolt, sits in a hex sided well in the 
pedestal base so it doesn't turn.   You tighten the nuts from below.  The old 
bolts might have been reused, but something about them worried me, so I chose 
to use new bolts and nuts.

I learned later that McMaster-Carr has both aluminum and stainless which you 
can get next day, so you may want to compare prices.

Chuck Scheaffer Resolute 1989 C&C 34R Annapolis

On 11/20/2021 10:08 AM John McCrea via CnC-List  wrote:


Yes they are the four through bolts that hold the pedestal in place. I will 
contact Edson for replacements just curious if anyone else had them fail. Will 
also be resealing pedestal to stop water intrusion. Thanks.

Sent from my iPhone

On Nov 20, 2021, at 8:02 AM, Steve Thomas via CnC-List  
wrote:

I believe that the bolts in question are the through-the-deck bolts that secure 
the pedestal to the deck. They are also the only aluminum bolts that I know of 
that were once "standard" on Edson pedestal steering systems. If I am wrong on 
the latter, I am certain that others will chime in. :)

Steve Thomas

1980 C&C36 MKI

1978 C&C27 MKIII


-- Original Message --
From: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
Cc: shawngwri...@gmail.com
Sent: Friday, November 19, 2021 8:42 PM
Subject: Stus-List Re: Edson Steering Sheave Assembly Bolt Failure.

Can you share any photos of the bolts in question? Are these above deck, or 
below? I'm not aware of any aluminum bolts in my pedestal, but they may have 
been replaced with stainless steel. There is one SS round head machine screw 
that is loose and has no material left to grab (threads stripped out) on one of 
the aluminum pieces which fit over the SS tubing at the deck level. As the 
pedestal is solid, I've ignored it for now. Everything below deck looks good 
also, but it's been a year since I checked so it's on the list.

--
Shawn Wright
shawngwri...@gmail.com
S/V Callisto, 1974 C&C 35
https://www.facebook.com/SVCallisto


On Fri, Nov 19, 2021 at 1:19 PM John McCrea via CnC-List 
mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>> wrote:

All,


I was aware that my bolts in my steering assembly below the pedestal were 
failing when I noticed a gap on the bow side of the sheave assembly this 
summer. After trying to tighten one of the aluminum bolts it crumbled. Had two 
remaining good ones in the stern and limped the way through the remainder of 
the season. Today loosened the steering cables to start to take apart the 
assembly with the intent of fixing in place with new bolts. Having had a 
similar but more catastrophic failure on our past 1989 37/40 XL I can see that 
the assembly itself is in good shape. My question is the use of the aluminum 
bolts. Since that is what failed should I switch to stainless? May be a good 
question for Rob Ball but wanted to see what others have used. Thanks!


John McCrea

Talisman

1979 36-1

Mystic, CT

Thanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help with the 
costs involved. If you want to show your support to the list - use PayPal to 
send contribution -- 
https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
 Thanks - Stu

Thanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help with the 
costs involved. If you w

Stus-List Re: Garboard

[Jeffrey A. Laman via CnC-List]

Do it! I and a friend both installed garboard drains spring 2020 on C&C34 and 
C&C36. As we both live several hours drive from boats in winter we had to 
impose on others to climb aboard in winter to check bilge and pump out 
periodically. Pain. Now, worry free and boat is very dry. Place a length of 
cotton clothes line in hole to wick out last drop. One of the better projects 
you can do on a boat.

Jeff Laman
1981 C&C34 "Harmony"
Ludington, Mi

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From: Tom Sancton via CnC-List 
Sent: Monday, November 22, 2021 9:25:58 AM
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com 
Cc: Tom Sancton 
Subject: Stus-List Garboard


Looking at putting a garboard on my 35 mark 3. Has anyone done this? Looking at 
leaving my mast up but concerned about water entering the boat through the mast.

Sent from my iPhone
Thanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help with the 
costs involved.  If you want to show your support to the list - use PayPal to 
send contribution --   
https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.paypal.me%2Fstumurray&data=04%7C01%7C%7C8dd28e9a33ac413a71ae08d9adc41344%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435%7C1%7C0%7C637731879910809698%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=axCpW5S%2BVb2x2l6aQn6N6tMOyxAkNeWGmNolX%2F%2BlYa8%3D&reserved=0
  Thanks - Stu
Thanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help with the 
costs involved.  If you want to show your support to the list - use PayPal to 
send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray  Thanks - Stu

Stus-List Re: Fun in the sun

[Jeffrey A. Laman via CnC-List]

Second the garboard drain! There have been discussions in the past on this, but 
there is no easier, cheaper, peace of mind project.

Jeff Laman
81 CnC34 Harmony
Ludington, MICHIGAN

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From: Paul Hood via CnC-List 
Sent: Friday, January 7, 2022 6:47:39 AM
To: 'Stus-List' 
Cc: Paul Hood 
Subject: Stus-List Re: Fun in the sun


Ron,



You should try a garboard drain instead.  I put mine in a few years ago and 
love it.



Paul Hood

REFUGE - ’81 C&C34 Georgian Bay



From: Ronald B. Frerker via CnC-List 
Sent: January 7, 2022 12:33 AM
To: Stus-List 
Cc: Ronald B. Frerker 
Subject: Stus-List Re: Fun in the sun



Water leaks in on a warmer day and then freezes before I can get to it and pump 
it out.  No auto pump.  Cheap anti-freeze works well 'til I visit the boat 
again.

Ron

Wild Cheri

C&C 30-1

STL





On Thursday, January 6, 2022, 11:11:53 PM CST, andrew macLean 
mailto:andre...@icloud.com>> wrote:





Ron, Why are you putting anti-freeze in the bilge?



Andrew

C&C 30-1

Gulf Islands, BC


Thanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help with the 
costs involved.  If you want to show your support to the list - use PayPal to 
send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray  Thanks - Stu

Stus-List Re: Keel wobble

[Jeffrey A. Laman via CnC-List]

I couldn't let this note pass as I believe, as an engineer myself, there is 
some misunderstanding presented regarding the differences between engineers, 
architects, and trades and a confusion of terminology.  There are of course 
superstars and incompetents in every professional field.  But, generally, the 
architect (or scientist, take your pick) is the dreamer, the engineer figures 
out how to make the dream a reality (often with a high degree of creativity -- 
another misunderstanding about engineers, that they are dull and uncreative...) 
, and the trades (builders) implement the engineer's instructions.  A good, 
experienced engineer will have spent time in the trades, will be able to build 
anything she/he designs, and understands the theory, the stresses, the loads, 
etc. of whatever is built.  Engineer's do not just draw lines on paper.  That's 
a drafter, not an engineer.  If a thorough evaluation of a structure's 
condition is desired, and engineer is the best qualified, by far.

Jeff Laman
81 C&C34
"Harmony"
Ludington, MI


From: CHARLES SCHEAFFER via CnC-List 
Sent: Saturday, March 19, 2022 8:37 PM
To: Stus-List ; stephenk...@gmail.com 

Cc: CHARLES SCHEAFFER 
Subject: Stus-List Re: Keel wobble

First point:  No offense to professional naval architects and surveyors, but 
I'd prefer a good boat builder look at the boat rather than  an engineer.  
Engineers are dreamers and they draw lines on paper.  Builders know how to 
build the engineer's dream and how a boat and keel should behave and how to fix 
it and what it will cost.  Yes, I'd rather have Bruckman's opinion than 
Cuthbertson.  The builder made all those engineer's dreams, all those "lines on 
paper", into boats and come to life.

Second point:  Maybe the 25 repair costs more than she's worth.  Buy a better 
and bigger C&C:  The market is full of low priced C&C boats.  There are many 
seaworthy C&Cs on the market for sale.  Many 27's, 30's, 32's, 34's, 35's, etc. 
 One of my favorites is the 27 MkV which has a decent interior space and can be 
trailored home for winter storage.

Chuck Scheaffer, Resolute 1989 C&C 34R, Annapolis


On 03/19/2022 6:22 PM cenelson--- via CnC-List  wrote:


1+ to recommendations for a serious evaluation of this issue by someone who 
really knows boats—naval engineer, architect, whatever, unless of course your 
sailing venue (current and future) is inshore in reasonable temperature waters 
and perhaps within easy reach of rescue and that you require all on board to 
wear PFDs all the time, etc.

Like most on this list, I am game to tackle most any boat repair, upgrade, 
modification, etc. However, and often at significant cost, I pay a professional 
to do jobs that are either beyond my wheelhouse or would require so much prep 
and research that it would take forever(allowing for amateur mistakes and 
redoing certain jobs when the first attempt goes ‘awry’ for one reason or 
another).

For any repair or upgrade that might send the boat to the bottom if it went 
awry (standing rigging replacement, hull deck joint refurbishment, centerboard 
pennant replacement, stuffing box issues, cutlass bearing replacement, etc.) I 
use a pro.

Of course with a ‘well found’ boat like C&Cs, there is seldom an issue with a 
design flaw at the seaworthy level—in fact I am confident that my boat design, 
whatever the details, resulted in a boat that is ‘smarter’ than her skipper and 
she will only permit me to screw things up but so far before her design saves 
my a— once again!

Most boat issues really aren’t ‘rocket science’ and are amenable to reasonable 
DIY fixes. IMHO, this keel wobble issue probably requires a nautical ‘rocket 
scientist’ (naval engineer, architect, etc. to have a look!

Charlie Nelson
Water Phantom
1985 C&C XL/kcb
Sent from the all new AOL app for 
iOS

Stus-List Re: Keel wobble

[Jeffrey A. Laman via CnC-List]

Hah!  I love it!

From: Don Kern via CnC-List 
Sent: Sunday, March 20, 2022 4:39 PM
To: Jeffrey A. Laman via CnC-List 
Cc: Don Kern 
Subject: Stus-List Re: Keel wobble

Jeff

I guess you have the Knack  
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g8vHhgh6oM0<https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3Dg8vHhgh6oM0&data=04%7C01%7C%7C254e702395d948086eff08da0ab1d973%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435%7C1%7C0%7C637834056230917093%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=Y8%2Bs65QVWMWJbj4ZPdNXhYAMzdjvdv8cCTOC8jQdLKA%3D&reserved=0>

Don Kern
Fireball, C&C35 Mk2
Bristol, RI
Aerospace Eng.

On 3/20/2022 10:52 AM, Jeffrey A. Laman via CnC-List wrote:
I couldn't let this note pass as I believe, as an engineer myself, there is 
some misunderstanding presented regarding the differences between engineers, 
architects, and trades and a confusion of terminology.  There are of course 
superstars and incompetents in every professional field.  But, generally, the 
architect (or scientist, take your pick) is the dreamer, the engineer figures 
out how to make the dream a reality (often with a high degree of creativity -- 
another misunderstanding about engineers, that they are dull and uncreative...) 
, and the trades (builders) implement the engineer's instructions.  A good, 
experienced engineer will have spent time in the trades, will be able to build 
anything she/he designs, and understands the theory, the stresses, the loads, 
etc. of whatever is built.  Engineer's do not just draw lines on paper.  That's 
a drafter, not an engineer.  If a thorough evaluation of a structure's 
condition is desired, and engineer is the best qualified, by far.

Jeff Laman
81 C&C34
"Harmony"
Ludington, MI


From: CHARLES SCHEAFFER via CnC-List 
<mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>
Sent: Saturday, March 19, 2022 8:37 PM
To: Stus-List <mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>; 
stephenk...@gmail.com<mailto:stephenk...@gmail.com> 
<mailto:stephenk...@gmail.com>
Cc: CHARLES SCHEAFFER <mailto:cscheaf...@comcast.net>
Subject: Stus-List Re: Keel wobble

First point:  No offense to professional naval architects and surveyors, but 
I'd prefer a good boat builder look at the boat rather than  an engineer.  
Engineers are dreamers and they draw lines on paper.  Builders know how to 
build the engineer's dream and how a boat and keel should behave and how to fix 
it and what it will cost.  Yes, I'd rather have Bruckman's opinion than 
Cuthbertson.  The builder made all those engineer's dreams, all those "lines on 
paper", into boats and come to life.

Second point:  Maybe the 25 repair costs more than she's worth.  Buy a better 
and bigger C&C:  The market is full of low priced C&C boats.  There are many 
seaworthy C&Cs on the market for sale.  Many 27's, 30's, 32's, 34's, 35's, etc. 
 One of my favorites is the 27 MkV which has a decent interior space and can be 
trailored home for winter storage.

Chuck Scheaffer, Resolute 1989 C&C 34R, Annapolis


On 03/19/2022 6:22 PM cenelson--- via CnC-List 
<mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote:


1+ to recommendations for a serious evaluation of this issue by someone who 
really knows boats—naval engineer, architect, whatever, unless of course your 
sailing venue (current and future) is inshore in reasonable temperature waters 
and perhaps within easy reach of rescue and that you require all on board to 
wear PFDs all the time, etc.

Like most on this list, I am game to tackle most any boat repair, upgrade, 
modification, etc. However, and often at significant cost, I pay a professional 
to do jobs that are either beyond my wheelhouse or would require so much prep 
and research that it would take forever(allowing for amateur mistakes and 
redoing certain jobs when the first attempt goes ‘awry’ for one reason or 
another).

For any repair or upgrade that might send the boat to the bottom if it went 
awry (standing rigging replacement, hull deck joint refurbishment, centerboard 
pennant replacement, stuffing box issues, cutlass bearing replacement, etc.) I 
use a pro.

Of course with a ‘well found’ boat like C&Cs, there is seldom an issue with a 
design flaw at the seaworthy level—in fact I am confident that my boat design, 
whatever the details, resulted in a boat that is ‘smarter’ than her skipper and 
she will only permit me to screw things up but so far before her design saves 
my a— once again!

Most boat issues really aren’t ‘rocket science’ and are amenable to reasonable 
DIY fixes. IMHO, this keel wobble issue probably requires a nautical ‘rocket 
scientist’ (naval engineer, architect, etc. to have a look!

Charlie Nelson
Water Phantom
1985 C&C XL/kcb
Sent 

Stus-List Re: Chainplate Sealing.

[Jeffrey A. Laman via CnC-List]

I second the sealing with butyl. Do NOT use silicone or 4200. The epoxy idea 
may be ok, but messy and no going back. "Beefing up" the plates wont do any 
harm but isn't necessary. These plates effectively protect the sealant. That's 
it. Check the balsa core around the penetration. Depending on extent of decay, 
determine how this will be remedied -- from digging out a small amount balsa 
and fill with butyl to cutting out glass from above or below to repair and 
anything in between. Overfill with butyl fron above and below, then gradually 
tighten the cover plates to compress butyl and force it into all voids. 
Carefully trim all excess butyl that oozes out from under the plates and 
remove. Check frequently for leaks and gradual oozing of butyl.

The chain plates move in and out, perpendicular to the deck under load, unload. 
The sealing material must be able to move also. Epoxy will not move. Silicone 
will for a while, but it's difficult stuff to remove later if it fails. Same 
with 4200 but even worse.  Butyl is the solution.

Also, I encourage you to carefully inspect the knee connection where chain 
plate bolts to hull. Remove bolts and poke around with dental tools. Make sure 
plywood is intact and not rotting. Inspect in the bottom of the space below 
knee, poking and tapping everything, checking for hollow sounds and decay. If 
there have been leaks at the deck, water runs down chain plate and into all the 
plywood knee structure and can damage it. So, there is more to preventing water 
at the deck core. Much more.

I am sure others on the list have stories to tell. A lister has an 81 C&C36 
that is in for a major major repair (thousands $$) of the knees due to a leak. 
The rig nearly came down while racing. I was crew. Scary.  So I immediately 
checked my C&C34. Leaking but very little decay. Dry as bone after butyl and 4 
months -- haven't been to boat since about November, but under winter cover.

Jeff Laman
81 C&C34
Harmony
Ludington Mich

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From: MICHAEL BRANNON via CnC-List 
Sent: Monday, March 21, 2022 5:38:59 PM
To: Stus-List 
Cc: MICHAEL BRANNON 
Subject: Stus-List Re: Chainplate Sealing.

John,  I’ve owned my 36-1 since 1997.   I’ve yet to make the chainplates quit 
leaking but I’ve certainly reduced the amount.   First,  I doubt that the balsa 
around your chainplates is sealed.  Mine wasn’t.  I had to replace core 
material on the starboard side.   Second.  Those aluminum trim pieces are flush 
to the deck.  I raised mine about 3?16” and that is what made the difference.   
Lastly,   Like everything else above the waterline I used butyl as the sealant. 
  It remains flexible and easy to remove.   My advise is to ask the butyl from 
both sides of the deck.  Install the trim plates and see if it is sealed?

Cheer, and best of luck.

Mike

Mike Brannon
Virginia Lee 93295
1978 C&C 36 CB
Virginia Beach, VA

PS,  mine need to be done again this year.


On Mar 21, 2022, at 5:28 PM, Marek Dziedzic via CnC-List 
mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>> wrote:

John,

Many would suggest 3M 4200, but silicone has issues. I swear by butyl tape (it 
never hardens out completely and it is very flexible). The best source is Maine 
Sail (Compass Marine 
https://marinehowto.com/),
 though, I am not sure if he still sells this stuff (he had a bad hard attack 
last year).

Marek
Ottawa, ON

From: John McCrea via CnC-List 
mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>>
Sent: Monday, March 21, 2022 4:28 PM
To: 'Stus-List' mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>>
Cc: johnmcc...@comcast.net
Subject: Stus-List Chainplate Sealing.

Hello. I have a leak on my port side chainplate that needs addressing. I pulled 
both chainplate cover plates and noticed that I had a stainless rod on 
starboard that holds the two chainplates pieces together. One on port is 
missing. Maybe that is causing excess movement and more adapt to leak? The 
covers are original and thin 1/16 aluminum. I am getting them beefed up to 1/8 
stainless.

Looks like the PO had only sealed them with clear silicone. So that will all be 
dug out. I am also inspecting the hull tabbing below with the chainplates etc 
to ensure that I do not have any issues there. What is the best sealant to use 
when installing the new cover plates? Thanks!

Regards,

John McCrea
Talisman
1979 36-1
Mystic, CT

Stus-List Re: Chainplate Sealing - now sealants in general

[Jeffrey A. Laman via CnC-List]

My experience also.  Butyl.
Another observation -- some have posted that they plan to wrap a chainplate in 
wax paper and cast it in epoxy.  This is not a good scheme as now your sealant 
is hard epoxy.  Water will wick down the joint.  Leave a 1/8" to 1/4" gap 
around anything that penetrates the deck to allow butyl to seal the joint.

Jeff Laman
1981 C&C34
Harmony
Ludington, MI

From: John Read via CnC-List 
Sent: Sunday, April 17, 2022 7:16 PM
To: 'Stus-List' 
Cc: John Read 
Subject: Stus-List Re: Chainplate Sealing - now sealants in general


Butyl



In my experience it is the only sealant that will stay adhered to stainless and 
still allow movement



John Read

Legacy III

1982 C&C 34

Noank, CT



From: dwight veinot via CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com]
Sent: Sunday, April 17, 2022 6:53 PM
To: Stus-List
Cc: dwight veinot
Subject: Stus-List Re: Chainplate Sealing - now sealants in general



Butyl tape



On Sun, Apr 17, 2022 at 11:39 AM Matthew via CnC-List 
mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>> wrote:

Stus-List Re: Genoa sheets catch on shrouds

[Jeffrey A. Laman via CnC-List]

Dave,
I am curious how your soft shackle is installed and why that hasn't solved your 
problem.  After attaching sheets with a soft shackle a couple years ago, I have 
not had a single hangup.
Jeff Laman
81C&C34
Harmony
Ludington, MI

From: David Knecht via CnC-List 
Sent: Thursday, June 16, 2022 1:32 PM
To: CnC CnC discussion list 
Cc: David Knecht 
Subject: Stus-List Genoa sheets catch on shrouds

What have people found to be the best way to keep the genoa sheet attachment 
from catching on the shrouds during a tack?  I use a dyneema soft shackle to 
attach the sheets to the clew, but that has not solved the problem over knots.  
Thanks- Dave

S/V Aries
1990 C&C 34+
New London, CT

[cid:4073BE72-4704-4EA7-8EBA-B73B833F502B]

Stus-List Re: Genoa sheets catch on shrouds

[Jeffrey A. Laman via CnC-List]

Protective tubes wouldn't matter.
I use one soft shackle, 1/4" that attaches both sheets. If 2 shackles are used, 
same size since both sheets never pull at same time. The stopper knot on 
shackle has to be on outside, away from shrouds. No problems with 135 or 155.

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From: David Knecht 
Sent: Thursday, June 16, 2022 1:45:04 PM
To: Jeffrey A. Laman 
Cc: CnC CnC discussion list 
Subject: Re: Stus-List Genoa sheets catch on shrouds

The sheets have loops spliced into the ends and the soft shackle just goes 
through the two loops and attaches to itself.  I have no problem with my 100% 
genoa, but my 145 hangs up often.  Do you have protective tubes around your 
shrouds or bare rod?  Dave


S/V Aries
1990 C&C 34+
New London, CT

[cid:4073BE72-4704-4EA7-8EBA-B73B833F502B]

On Jun 16, 2022, at 1:36 PM, Jeffrey A. Laman 
mailto:jlam...@outlook.com>> wrote:

Dave,
I am curious how your soft shackle is installed and why that hasn't solved your 
problem.  After attaching sheets with a soft shackle a couple years ago, I have 
not had a single hangup.
Jeff Laman
81C&C34
Harmony
Ludington, MI

From: David Knecht via CnC-List 
mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>>
Sent: Thursday, June 16, 2022 1:32 PM
To: CnC CnC discussion list 
mailto:CnC-List@cnc-list.com>>
Cc: David Knecht mailto:davidakne...@gmail.com>>
Subject: Stus-List Genoa sheets catch on shrouds

What have people found to be the best way to keep the genoa sheet attachment 
from catching on the shrouds during a tack?  I use a dyneema soft shackle to 
attach the sheets to the clew, but that has not solved the problem over knots.  
Thanks- Dave

S/V Aries
1990 C&C 34+
New London, CT

Stus-List Re: Genoa sheets catch on shrouds

[Jeffrey A. Laman via CnC-List]

Point of correction I think. If each sheet is attached with its own shackle, no 
size reduction. The force is same because only one sheet pulls at a time.

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From: Novabraid via CnC-List 
Sent: Thursday, June 16, 2022 2:17:50 PM
To: 'Stus-List' 
Cc: csgilchr...@comcast.net 
Subject: Stus-List Re: Genoa sheets catch on shrouds


Dave,

I think the size of the soft shackle (if you’re just using one) may be part of 
the issue.  Soft shackles are made from high modulus fibers, usually either 
Dyneema or Spectra (both UHMWPE) or some generic version of the same material.  
All of which are far stronger than your sheets thus allowing you to downsize 
your soft shackle to something smaller than the sheet itself.  Conventional 
wisdom with regards to virtually anybody buying sheets or sheet attachments is 
they want them large enough to handle easily and similarly, the soft shackles 
are a bit easier to handle with gloves if they’re sized appropriately large.  
But they don’t need to be.  If you’re using a 7/16 genoa sheet, the largest 
that soft shackle needs to be regarding strength is either 3/16” or ¼” 
diameter.  That alone should make it easier for the shackle to pass by the 
shrouds.  On my boat, the issue becomes the sheet hanging up on the turnbuckles 
of the shrouds.  I’ve solved that issue by putting turnbuckle boots made of a 
chafe material over the offending hardware and have no problems whatsoever.

Back to the soft shackles, you mentioned you use a single soft shackle to hold 
both sheets.  I’ve been a fan of using 2 smaller soft shackles which serves two 
purposes.  If I have a sheet issue (like a winch override, an unfortunate wrap 
around something or the need to change a jib), its easier to do so with 
individual shackles so you can simply change tacks and release each sheet 
independently.  That also allows for slightly smaller shackles as well.

Just my 2 cents..

Chuck Gilchrest

1983 Landfall 35





From: David Knecht via CnC-List 
Sent: Thursday, June 16, 2022 1:45 PM
To: Jeffrey A. Laman 
Cc: CnC CnC discussion list ; David Knecht 

Subject: Stus-List Re: Genoa sheets catch on shrouds



The sheets have loops spliced into the ends and the soft shackle just goes 
through the two loops and attaches to itself.  I have no problem with my 100% 
genoa, but my 145 hangs up often.  Do you have protective tubes around your 
shrouds or bare rod?  Dave





S/V Aries

1990 C&C 34+

New London, CT

[cid:image001.png@01D8818B.3701ED20]



On Jun 16, 2022, at 1:36 PM, Jeffrey A. Laman 
mailto:jlam...@outlook.com>> wrote:



Dave,

I am curious how your soft shackle is installed and why that hasn't solved your 
problem.  After attaching sheets with a soft shackle a couple years ago, I have 
not had a single hangup.

Jeff Laman

81C&C34

Harmony

Ludington, MI



From: David Knecht via CnC-List 
mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>>
Sent: Thursday, June 16, 2022 1:32 PM
To: CnC CnC discussion list 
mailto:CnC-List@cnc-list.com>>
Cc: David Knecht mailto:davidakne...@gmail.com>>
Subject: Stus-List Genoa sheets catch on shrouds



What have people found to be the best way to keep the genoa sheet attachment 
from catching on the shrouds during a tack?  I use a dyneema soft shackle to 
attach the sheets to the clew, but that has not solved the problem over knots.  
Thanks- Dave



S/V Aries

1990 C&C 34+

New London, CT

Stus-List Re: Cost to replace UV cover

[Jeffrey A. Laman via CnC-List]

I made a headsail sock several years ago for a PY26 for about $100. Bought long 
and short zipper and some acrylic fabric. Zip up to sheets and zip long zipper 
as hoist sock.

This sock was needed to protect a nice, lightweight genoa that had the heavy 
Sunbrella uv protection removed due to poor, amateur installation. The stick-on 
uv protection underneath was marginal -- doesn't last very long. The system 
worked well and was cost effective.

Jeff Laman
81C&C34

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From: Bill Coleman via CnC-List 
Sent: Tuesday, June 21, 2022 8:23:22 AM
To: Stus-List 
Cc: Bill Coleman 
Subject: Stus-List Re: Cost to replace UV cover

So, do you zip down to your sheets, and zip up to them, or do you take the 
sheets off altogether and just zip with one zipper?

Bill Coleman
Entrada Erie PA

On Mon, Jun 20, 2022, 21:55 Bob Mann via CnC-List 
mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>> wrote:
Do away with the sacrificial altogether!  I bought a jib sock for my 35 in 
December 2017 for $580 from a small, local sailmaker.  A few tears in it but 
still going strong!

Bob Mann
Detroit
On 06/20/2022 9:45 PM Neil Andersen via CnC-List 
mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>> wrote:


I had a “stick on” sacrificial cover attached to my 150 years ago.  I was 
rounding Bloody Point on the Chesapeake in fairly strong winds when the cover 
got attached to the shrouds instead of the sail.  Not a lot of fun as we could 
only adjust our heading so much, we’re running out of “runway”, and the sail 
was basically glued to the shroud.   I will NEVER use a glue on item like that 
unless it is also sewn on as well.

Neil Andersen, W3NEA
Rock Hall, MD 21661
484-354-8800

From: Joel Aronson via CnC-List 
mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>>
Sent: Monday, June 20, 2022 8:28:31 PM
To: Stus-List mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>>
Cc: Joel Aronson mailto:joel.aron...@gmail.com>>
Subject: Stus-List Re: Cost to replace UV cover

U V cover replacement is by the foot. What else did they recommend?  New 
webbing? Restitching?

On Mon, Jun 20, 2022 at 7:34 PM Bill Coleman via CnC-List 
mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>> wrote:
Maybe it's time for a SailRite machine!
On the other hand, isn't there some kind of a white sticky material you can buy 
and just put it on yourself? It sticks like the numbers or graphics. I'm pretty 
sure I had that on one of my leeches.

Bill Coleman
Entrada Erie PA

On Mon, Jun 20, 2022, 19:08 Joe Della Barba via CnC-List 
mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>> wrote:



The UV cover on my genoa is starting to fail, so I took it to Bacons to get 
repaired. I figured 5 or 6 boat bucks maybe. Well I figured wrong, the estimate 
came back at $1350! Yikes!

Are they nuts or is this the going rate now? That seems like a pretty good 
chunk of an entire sail!





Joe Della Barba

Coquina C&C 35 MK I

Kent Island MD USA





--
Joel

Stus-List Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: Insurance... what is to much?

[Jeffrey A. Laman via CnC-List]

Boat insurance is always a lively topic on the list!  I have resisted 
participating, but wanted to offer a few more philosophical type thoughts.

As all of us know, getting insurance quotes for anything -- car, house, boat, 
life, will result in a very wide range of premiums.  Usually, the policies are 
not identical either making a comparison difficult.  It's a good idea to get 
several quotes for insurance every five years or so.

Before purchasing insurance, be clear about why insurance is being purchased 
and what is being protected.  Most financial advisors will promote insurance as 
a protection against catastrophe.  That will result in the most reasonable 
insurance cost and balances risk (risk = probability x consequence).  Many 
consumers want to insure against any and all loss.  That raises premiums 
dramatically because, for the insurance co. the probability of a claim is high 
now, but maybe the peace of mind is worth it to some.

As has been mentioned before, the liability coverage is absolutely necessary 
and the most important part of the insurance -- boat, car, home.

Insurance premiums for automobiles are closely related to the insureds credit 
rating.  This is permitted and there is a very close correlation between how 
someone handles finances and how they handle risks in life.  I don't know, but 
expect, boat insurance is similarly connected to credit rating.

I'd offer this about the $70k agreed value, 42-yr-old C&C Landfall, not to pick 
on that boat or owner, but it is very illustrative.  The owner is wanting to 
protect against any loss.  And the premium is high, as would be expected.  In 
10 years, the owner will likely have paid $30k in insurance premiums given rate 
increases.  A 52-yr-old C&C38 (ten years from now) in top condition might be 
sold for $30k to $40k. Something to think about.

My premium for a '81 C&C34 in above average condition and agreed value of $27k 
(now too high really after 5 years) is less than $220 per year.  That doesn't 
mean a lot to anyone unless we go through all the details of the policy, but 
the boat and I are covered for the worst -- liability, environmental damage, 
loss of boat.  In nearly 50 years of owning and insuring boats, I have never 
made a claim.

Jeff Laman
'81C&C34 Harmony
Ludington, MI

From: Della Barba, Joe via CnC-List 
Sent: Tuesday, June 28, 2022 9:45 AM
To: Stus-List 
Cc: Della Barba, Joe 
Subject: Stus-List Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: Insurance... what is to much?


I keep waiting for Progressive to get revealed as a huge scheme.

I was paying $700/yr. to Geico (nee BoatUS) for ONE boat and now I have all 
three of my boats on Progressive with better coverage for $700/yr. They had no 
issue with quoting a C&C 41 and I think their website states they go up to 50 
feet or so. I am also about to switch my car insurance to them, same deal, 
better coverage for less money. Not that I would actually try it, but my Boston 
Whaler is insured to go 100 miles offshore from Maine to Florida and so is the 
dinghy.

How do they do this?

I also wonder about the insured value, on the form to sign up it is whatever 
you say it is. I wonder if it has some algorithm to flag wildly inappropriate 
values. I swear I was being careful, but my $150,000 dinghy got loose and 
vanished. Darn the luck!





Joe Della Barba  Coquina

Stus-List Re: Adding a second house battery

[Jeffrey A. Laman via CnC-List]

This is how my C&C34 is set up and how it came when I bought it.  I added 
charger, with 2 bank capacity.  One side of the charger gets the two house, and 
the other side of the charger goes to start.  Works fine.  But, as noted, 
charging the house takes a longer.  I have debated whether to do away with the 
2nd house battery since the boat does not consume that much power -- 
instruments and auto pilot.  All lights are LED now.  Stereo use is at dock 
only.

Jeff Laman
81 C&C34 "Harmony"
Ludington, MI

From: Jeff Nelson via CnC-List 
Sent: Monday, July 4, 2022 10:13 AM
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com 
Cc: Jeff Nelson 
Subject: Stus-List Re: Adding a second house battery

Assuming you simply want to double your storage capacity, put the batteries 
side by side, wire positive to positive and
negative to negative.  You now have 12 volts with 2ce the ampacity.  Others may 
offer some advice on charging...but
I think you should be reasonably ok, except it will take a bunch longer to 
charge as you have 2ce the capacity that you
need to fill.

On 2022-07-04 10:41, Hoyt, Mike via CnC-List wrote:

Actually is for an RV but I can think of no better place to get answer to this 
type of question than this list.



Came with one group 27 deep cycle battery.  Wish to add a second and have been 
told that nothing needs to change re the charging systems, etc …  What is 
involved in adding a second group 27 battery?



Thanks



Mike Hoyt

Persistence

Halifax, NS


--
Cheers,
  Jeff Nelson
  Muir Caileag
  C&C 30 - 549
  Armdale Y.C.

Stus-List Re: C&C 34 Winch replacement

[Jeffrey A. Laman via CnC-List]

Rick -- lots of very good information!
My 2 cent addition to the conversation.  My 81 C&C34 hasself tailing Lewmar 42s 
for primary.  They work fine, but as I get older, it gets more difficult to 
drive and winch when I go out alone.  I lift weights over the winter so I can 
still do it -- great motivator!  Moral of the story -- think ahead if you 
intend to keep the boat past when you are about 65 and get bigger winches than 
you need now.

Jeff Laman
81 C&C34
Harmony
Ludington, MI

From: Rick Brass via CnC-List 
Sent: Friday, July 29, 2022 3:10 PM
To: 'Stus-List' 
Cc: Rick Brass 
Subject: Stus-List Re: C&C 34 Winch replacement


Dean,



There is a Barient Winch catalog available on the L-26 website at Barient 
Catalog 
(l-36.com).
 You might want to save a copy for future reference.



Most of the winch equivalency charts I’ve bookmarked over the past 30 years are 
no longer active on the web, But the information in the Barient catalog gives 
some useful information. BTW, L-36 also has a Barient equivalent chart, but it 
only goes as high as the 22 standard winch, but not the 25, 27, 28, 32’s that 
are common on the bigger C&Cs.



For a 34’ boat with approximate sail area of 470 sq ft, the catalog recommends 
a Barient 25 genoa sheet winch for cruisers, or a 27 for racers. As someone 
else has mentioned, the Barient winches used a different numbering system than 
is presently common. The current system is to use the power ratio of the winch 
in the lowest gear as a model number. So a Lewmar 42 2-speed winch has a power 
ration of about 42:1 in low gear.



IIRC, that is calculated using a 10” winch handle. (The longer the handle, the 
more mechanical advantage you have. The average person can put about 50 pounds 
of effort on the winch handle when cranking. With a 10” handle, you get (10”- ½ 
the drum diameter) X 50 = inch pounds of torque to power the winch.  An 8” 
winch handle – which I need to use because of obstructions near the primary 
winches – result in about 30% less input power.)



According to the Barient catalog on L-36, the 25 has a power ratio of 44:1 with 
a 10 inch handle. So replacement winches in the new current system would be in 
the 44 range. The Power ratio of the 27 (recommended for racers) is 46:1, so 
that would be an appropriate size range if you are looking for easier tailing, 
or are using an 8” winch handle.



BTW, the Barient catalog has a spec listed that they called the “Power 
Advantage Rating”. It is pretty much a measure of how many pounds of tension 
that the winch can put on the sheet when in low gear when cranked by an average 
person. For the 25, it is about 2300 pounds. The 27 is 2900. The 28 is 3450 
even  though the power ratio is lower than for the 27. And the 32 is 3950 
pounds.



For what it is worth, if you upgrade to the 28 winches mentioned by a couple of 
the others, a company called Winchmate offers a kit for conversion of the 
standard winch to self-tailing. Cost is about $500 per kit,  so for about $1000 
plus the cost of the 28 standard winches you can upgrade quite a bit. Probably 
for less than a pair of new self-tailing winches is going to cost. That is what 
I plan to do with the 28s and 32s on my 38.



Rick Brass

Imzadi  C&C 38 mk2 #47

la Belle Aurore  C&C 25 mk1 #225

Washington, NC







From: Dean McNeill via CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com]
Sent: Thursday, July 28, 2022 11:51 PM
To: Stus-List 
Cc: Dean McNeill 
Subject: Stus-List C&C 34 Winch replacement



Looking to replace the original Barient 25 double speed primary winches on my 
1980 C&C 34 over the off season with similar sized self-tailing ones. Anyone 
with a similar boat find a good replacement with same or similar mounting holes 
that would save me some work? Really interested in what others have done and 
recommend.



Thanks, Dean



C&C 34

BarraWind

Halifax, NS, Canada

Stus-List Re: Tiller wobble

[Jeffrey A. Laman via CnC-List]

Korbey,
Try filling the rudder shaft tube full of waterproof grease.  Most recommend 
"Green Grease" but I have been using "Corrosion Block Waterproof Grease" (it's 
blue...).  My 81 C&C34 has a grease cup, but I and others have added a grease 
fitting to the cup to pump the tube full.  I just did mine yesterday -- rudder 
started to move a little more than usual under sail on Thursday in 2 to 3 ft 
seas.  Grease always puts a stop to it.  Friday sail in similar conditions with 
no rudder movement.  I fill the tube about twice a summer. Have never 
experienced the wobble while motoring, but then I don't ever go as high as 3000 
rpms.
Jeff Laman
81 C&C34 Harmony
Ludington, MI

From: Korbey Hunt via CnC-List 
Sent: Friday, August 5, 2022 3:20 PM
To: Stus-List 
Cc: Korbey Hunt 
Subject: Stus-List Tiller wobble

My 1980 34 C&C has a tiller that wobbles excessively when running with engine 
at 3,000 rpm.  A cursory inspection does not show any adjustment or easy 
bearing replacement.  All bolts are tight. There is some slack, maybe 1/8" when 
testing the tiller by moving back and forth at the dock. Has anyone else 
experienced this?  Is there a known easy solution short of replacement?  Should 
I be concerned.  This seems to have gotten worse over the years.
Korbey, SV Oz

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Stus-List Re: Tiller wobble

[Jeffrey A. Laman via CnC-List]

Crawl back to where you see the rudder shaft. Sorry I don't have a photo. 
Others will I am sure.  Where steel rudder shaft is enclosed in the fiberglass 
hull, or shaft tube, you should find a grease cap on the forward side. Looks a 
little bigger than a soda bottle cap and is metal. Remove the cap, fill with 
grease, and tighten all the way down. Repeat. Tightening the cap forces the 
grease out of the cap and into the tube. The first time I greased the rudder 
tube I filled the cap 40 times (I am certain the shaft hadn't been greased for 
decades). That's when I realized a Zerk fitting, 6ft hose, and grease gun was 
needed. Now I screw hose into gun, give it ten or so pumps, and done.

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From: Korbey Hunt 
Sent: Friday, August 5, 2022 3:45:53 PM
To: Jeffrey A. Laman ; Stus-List 
Subject: Re: Tiller wobble

Thanks.  I have never added grease.  Not sure where to put it.

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Android

From: Jeffrey A. Laman 
Sent: Friday, August 5, 2022 11:28:11 AM
To: Stus-List 
Cc: Korbey Hunt 
Subject: Re: Tiller wobble

Korbey,
Try filling the rudder shaft tube full of waterproof grease.  Most recommend 
"Green Grease" but I have been using "Corrosion Block Waterproof Grease" (it's 
blue...).  My 81 C&C34 has a grease cup, but I and others have added a grease 
fitting to the cup to pump the tube full.  I just did mine yesterday -- rudder 
started to move a little more than usual under sail on Thursday in 2 to 3 ft 
seas.  Grease always puts a stop to it.  Friday sail in similar conditions with 
no rudder movement.  I fill the tube about twice a summer. Have never 
experienced the wobble while motoring, but then I don't ever go as high as 3000 
rpms.
Jeff Laman
81 C&C34 Harmony
Ludington, MI

From: Korbey Hunt via CnC-List 
Sent: Friday, August 5, 2022 3:20 PM
To: Stus-List 
Cc: Korbey Hunt 
Subject: Stus-List Tiller wobble

My 1980 34 C&C has a tiller that wobbles excessively when running with engine 
at 3,000 rpm.  A cursory inspection does not show any adjustment or easy 
bearing replacement.  All bolts are tight. There is some slack, maybe 1/8" when 
testing the tiller by moving back and forth at the dock. Has anyone else 
experienced this?  Is there a known easy solution short of replacement?  Should 
I be concerned.  This seems to have gotten worse over the years.
Korbey, SV Oz

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Android

Stus-List Re: Tiller wobble

[Jeffrey A. Laman via CnC-List]

Had same thoughts. Grease is easy place to start and he has never greased, so 
way past time. If that doesn't resolve wobble, then inspect rudder for 
irregularities, cutless bearing and shaft, propeller, etc. He'll have to haul 
boat for all that. Could look at shaft, coupler, and seal from inside boat. 
Maybe watch from down below while someone drives at 3000 rpm?
Jeff Laman

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From: Matthew via CnC-List 
Sent: Friday, August 5, 2022 4:03:18 PM
To: 'Stus-List' 
Cc: Matthew 
Subject: Stus-List Re: Tiller wobble


I didn’t know the 34 came with a tiller option.  My 1978 34 had a wheel, as 
does every other 34 I’ve ever seen (about a half dozen or so).  Interesting.



Given that the wobble corresponds to RPMs, I would not guess it’s a tiller or 
rudder grease issue.  I’m no expert, but it sounds more like a prop shaft strut 
or cutless bearing issue.  Did you by chance have a dock line sucked into your 
prop before the vibration started?



Matt Wolford



From: Korbey Hunt via CnC-List 
Sent: Friday, August 05, 2022 3:20 PM
To: Stus-List 
Cc: Korbey Hunt 
Subject: Stus-List Tiller wobble



My 1980 34 C&C has a tiller that wobbles excessively when running with engine 
at 3,000 rpm.  A cursory inspection does not show any adjustment or easy 
bearing replacement.  All bolts are tight. There is some slack, maybe 1/8" when 
testing the tiller by moving back and forth at the dock. Has anyone else 
experienced this?  Is there a known easy solution short of replacement?  Should 
I be concerned.  This seems to have gotten worse over the years.

Korbey, SV Oz



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Android

Stus-List Re: Tiller wobble

[Jeffrey A. Laman via CnC-List]

Drilled a hole in the center of the cap, pushed the Zerk through hole, and put 
a washer and nut on inside of cap.

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From: Korbey Hunt 
Sent: Friday, August 5, 2022 5:11:53 PM
To: Stus-List 
Cc: Jeffrey A. Laman 
Subject: Re: Stus-List Re: Tiller wobble

Thanks.  I have never greased it (5 yrs)  and I doubt the prior owner did.  
Sounds like a good place to start.  How did you install the zerk fitting?

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From: Jeffrey A. Laman via CnC-List 
Sent: Friday, August 5, 2022 12:15:10 PM
To: Stus-List 
Cc: Jeffrey A. Laman 
Subject: Stus-List Re: Tiller wobble

Had same thoughts. Grease is easy place to start and he has never greased, so 
way past time. If that doesn't resolve wobble, then inspect rudder for 
irregularities, cutless bearing and shaft, propeller, etc. He'll have to haul 
boat for all that. Could look at shaft, coupler, and seal from inside boat. 
Maybe watch from down below while someone drives at 3000 rpm?
Jeff Laman

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From: Matthew via CnC-List 
Sent: Friday, August 5, 2022 4:03:18 PM
To: 'Stus-List' 
Cc: Matthew 
Subject: Stus-List Re: Tiller wobble


I didn’t know the 34 came with a tiller option.  My 1978 34 had a wheel, as 
does every other 34 I’ve ever seen (about a half dozen or so).  Interesting.



Given that the wobble corresponds to RPMs, I would not guess it’s a tiller or 
rudder grease issue.  I’m no expert, but it sounds more like a prop shaft strut 
or cutless bearing issue.  Did you by chance have a dock line sucked into your 
prop before the vibration started?



Matt Wolford



From: Korbey Hunt via CnC-List 
Sent: Friday, August 05, 2022 3:20 PM
To: Stus-List 
Cc: Korbey Hunt 
Subject: Stus-List Tiller wobble



My 1980 34 C&C has a tiller that wobbles excessively when running with engine 
at 3,000 rpm.  A cursory inspection does not show any adjustment or easy 
bearing replacement.  All bolts are tight. There is some slack, maybe 1/8" when 
testing the tiller by moving back and forth at the dock. Has anyone else 
experienced this?  Is there a known easy solution short of replacement?  Should 
I be concerned.  This seems to have gotten worse over the years.

Korbey, SV Oz



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Stus-List Re: Its a Freakin' Lancer !!!!

[Jeffrey A. Laman via CnC-List]

Thank you Mike. Time to put this conversation to bed and move on to topics of 
importance.
Jeff Laman.

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From: Hoyt, Mike via CnC-List 
Sent: Friday, August 26, 2022 8:34:37 AM
To: Stus-List 
Cc: Hoyt, Mike 
Subject: Stus-List Its a Freakin' Lancer 


Does nobody read emails?



This is a Lancer 30 mark 1 or 2.  It is not a C&C.  At some point the Lancer 30 
was built from older C&C molds but not sure if the early versions were or not



It is not a C&C 30  



LANCER 30 approx 1974 – 1976



Mike Hoyt

Persistence

Halifax, NS





From: Alexander Netherton via CnC-List 
Sent: August 25, 2022 5:12 PM
To: Stus-List 
Cc: Alexander Netherton 
Subject: Stus-List Re: Is this a C&C?



Don't think so

1-keel and rudder do not have fin design, and bow line on mt cnc30 mk 1 is more 
curved.

2 position of hand rails is more centred than on mlne--which are angled and on 
edge of deck.  No dorad, etc...

3 cockpit configuration missing traveller and seems to have extra lockers.  Too 
narrow

Galley configuration is different, as is table configuration,

Could not see chain plates in standard location.

Defiantly a  boat of the same generations, but not a C&C 30 MK 1.

Alex N

Dulicibella

Stus-List Re: Partially furling the genoa when racing

[Jeffrey A. Laman via CnC-List]

David,
Reefing the genoa on a furler is routine where I sail and race.  I reef my main 
first, then reef my 135 second.  Typically when wind is about 15mph+ I keep 
about 5 winds on the furler, making the headsail about 110.  My luff is foam 
and will keep the sail shape decent up to about the 5 winds.  Another boat has 
a UK sail with very large foam tubes that maintains shape pretty well when 
furled.  After 5 winds, the shape gets bad fast on my foam luffed genoa.  The 
genoa needs to be capable of being reefed, but I don't know of anyone I sail 
with who has a head sail that isn't made to handle reefing.  Have a sail maker 
look at it if you aren't sure.  As for the furler line "fighting" the sheets, 
not really.  Lock the furler in and done.  Sheet the headsail as you normally 
would.  Challenge might be moving your cars forward, then back again as you 
furl and unfurl.  Also, unfurling is easy.  Furling back on is not.  But, 
typically our races are to windward start, then a reach, so start with furled, 
then let it go around the mark and finish the race.  Not ideal, but it works 
better than being overpowered.  A purist in the fleet scoffs at furlers and 
says, "You never have the right sail with a furler." Yea, ok, but I sail solo a 
lot too, so that's where I am.

Jeff Laman
81 C&C34
Harmony
Ludington, MI

From: Hoyt, Mike via CnC-List 
Sent: Monday, September 12, 2022 10:25 AM
To: Stus-List 
Cc: Hoyt, Mike 
Subject: Stus-List Re: Partially furling the genoa when racing


Hi David



First I find it unusual to hear of a J27 with a furling genoa.  We had a J27 
that came that way and it was the only one I knew of.  Our furling genoa was 
awful to use when racing anyway so we would  ignore the furler and tack our 
racing sails to the deck below the drum.  Eventually sold the luff foil, 
furling system and the furling genoa and replaced with a tuff luff



J27 upwind if too windy for 150 should use a blade as it is much faster.  
Downwind most 27s fly a spinnaker anyway.



On our 33 we will sometimes be overpowered upwind flying our non furling 140 or 
155 genoas for the added boost downwind if racing non spin.  If it is too windy 
for our 140 we drop to our 103%% head sail.



Your genoa would have to be designed and built to sail partially furled for it 
to have any sort of performance up wind.  I know some have foam in the luff 
area for this.  Regardless I would think the loss of upwind performance would 
be a pretty nasty price to pay for more horsepower down wind …



Those are my thoughts



Regards



Mike Hoyt

Persistence

Halifax, NS



From: David Knecht via CnC-List 
Sent: September 12, 2022 11:12 AM
To: CnC CnC discussion list 
Cc: David Knecht 
Subject: Stus-List Partially furling the genoa when racing



I was talking to the skipper of a J27 who nearly always wins our PHRF class and 
he was telling me that while he wins a lot, he struggles in heavier air.  He 
said he had recently started partially roller furling his large genoa for 
upwind legs and then unfurling downwind when the wind was strong enough to 
overpower him.  I have never considered doing that and my larger genoa does not 
have “reef points” .  What are the groups thoughts on the value/feasibility of 
this?   Any reason it would be bad for the sail?  It certainly would be easier 
than putting on my smaller sail when winds are questionable.  I worry about not 
only sail shape, but when partially furled, the furler and genoa sheet are 
fighting each other, which might not be a good thing for the furler.  Dave



S/V Aries

1990 C&C 34+

New London, CT

[cid:image001.png@01D8C69A.4F2D4620]

Stus-List Re: Glow plugs

[Jeffrey A. Laman via CnC-List]

For what it's worth -- another data point on glow plugs.  I had a 2003 VW Golf 
TDI 1.9L (Turbo Direct Injection) and drove it 200k miles.  The glow plugs had 
to be replaced at 80k and 160k.  A good reading was 1 ohm.  The plugs all went 
together both times (probably) and the car was very difficult to start.  But, 
the starting issue became obvious only when PA temperatures dropped, so plugs 
might have gone one at a time over summer.  With 4 cylinders, all you need is 
one to start to fire to get the engine going.

Jeff Laman
81 C&C34

From: David Knecht via CnC-List 
Sent: Monday, September 12, 2022 10:32 AM
To: CnC CnC discussion list 
Cc: David Knecht 
Subject: Stus-List Glow plugs

I asked the list a while back about glow plugs (Universal M4-30) and whether 
they should be a periodic replacement item.  They should have been testable in 
place, but I had trouble getting reliable readings from the meter.  So I 
decided since they were not that expensive ($80 for 4) to just go ahead and 
replace them so I had a sense of the state of 30 year old glow plugs.  It 
turned out to be a pretty easy job as engine jobs go (about an hour).  The only 
hard part was finding a tool that would grab the circular knurled nuts on top 
that held the wires on (Vice grips worked).   The plugs themselves came out 
without too much trouble with a standard socket wrench.  The old plugs look 
well used, but not worn out and tested as good with a Volt-ohm meter (about 1 
ohms).  The new ones made no difference to starting the engine that I could 
detect.  It still takes about 15-30 seconds of glow plug (as the manual 
recommends) before it starts.  So from my experience, this is not an engine 
part that needs much concern or frequent replacement.  Also, since the plus 
sides are all wired together, my assumption is that if one failed (high 
resistance), the others would continue to work fine.  Dave

S/V Aries
1990 C&C 34+
New London, CT

[cid:4073BE72-4704-4EA7-8EBA-B73B833F502B]

Stus-List Re: Partially furling the genoa when racing

[Jeffrey A. Laman via CnC-List]

David,
Just by chance I was looking today at the website of a local professional 
photographer and discovered this photo of my boat from 2020 -- my covid 
isolating solo sailing year.  This photo shows my 135 genoa reefed much farther 
than usual, but it was a very blowy day and I was solo.  Can't see sail details 
well, but it looks like a decent shape, even furled that much.

https://toddandbradreed.com/sail-boats/brads-day-239-of-366-august-26-2020

Jeff Laman
81 C&C34
Harmony
Ludington, MI

From: David Knecht via CnC-List 
Sent: Monday, September 12, 2022 4:48 PM
To: CnC CnC discussion list 
Cc: David Knecht 
Subject: Stus-List Re: Partially furling the genoa when racing

Thanks for all the input.  I have 110 and 145 laminate genoas.  In the past, 
with >2 crew, I used the 145 until Fall when the winds were strong, but as I 
have done more and more single-handed racing (non-spinnaker) in the last few 
years, I found the 110 was much easier to handle upwind, so I am currently 
rated for that sail (133 vs. 121 for the larger).  I agree that speed is not 
significantly compromised upwind (much to my surprise) when it blows 8-10 or 
more.  I have done quite well racing with the 110.  It is downwind where I was 
wondering if the larger sail would have advantages.  If increased speed 
downwind was significant, it might overcome the disadvantage of the sail shape 
and wind disruption of partial furling upwind.  Certainly wing on wing, I would 
think the larger sail would be significantly faster, but haven’t tested that 
yet.  When I get a chance, I will try with the full sail and then partially 
furl and see if I can detect a speed difference.  As a scientist, I know that 
data rules, so I need to get some, unless someone has done this already.  Dave

S/V Aries
1990 C&C 34+
New London, CT

[cid:4073BE72-4704-4EA7-8EBA-B73B833F502B]

On Sep 12, 2022, at 4:18 PM, ALAN BERGEN via CnC-List 
mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>> wrote:

When I was still racing, I used non-furling sails. I started with a 152; then 
switched to a 135, and finally to a 110. Each switch gave me a higher PHRF 
rating. Switching to a 135 gave me six seconds more, and the 110 gave me an 
additional three seconds. Going from a 135 to a 110 cost me very little speed, 
but I pointed higher, more than making up for the slightly lower speed. More 
often than not I was first to the windward mark. Off the wind I used a 
spinnaker, so I didn't need a larger jib.

In answer to your question, I have a furling genoa with foam sandwiched between 
sailcloth layers (near the luff). I can sail with the furled genoa and still 
have good sail shape. It doesn't damage the sail, but furling on the wind in 
heavy air is difficult. I can use a winch, but I have to be careful not to get 
overrides. If you don't use a spinnaker, try using the furled genoa and 
non-furled genoa, depending on wind conditions. If you have a 110, try racing 
with that and get your PHRF rating increased. Another advantage of the smaller 
sail is it's easier for the crew to get it all the 
way.in
 much faster. Let us know how these suggestions work.

Alan Bergen
35 Mk III Thirsty
Rose City YC
Portland, OR



On Mon, Sep 12, 2022 at 7:12 AM David Knecht via CnC-List 
mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>> wrote:
I was talking to the skipper of a J27 who nearly always wins our PHRF class and 
he was telling me that while he wins a lot, he struggles in heavier air.  He 
said he had recently started partially roller furling his large genoa for 
upwind legs and then unfurling downwind when the wind was strong enough to 
overpower him.  I have never considered doing that and my larger genoa does not 
have “reef points” .  What are the groups thoughts on the value/feasibility of 
this?   Any reason it would be bad for the sail?  It certainly would be easier 
than putting on my smaller sail when winds are questionable.  I worry about not 
only sail shape, but when partially furled, the furler and genoa sheet are 
fighting each other, which might not be a good thing for the furler.  Dave

S/V Aries
1990 C&C 34+
New London, CT

Stus-List Re: Rotella T5 - 10w30 vs 15w40?

[Jeffrey A. Laman via CnC-List]

I spoke with Yanmar about this issue a couple years ago.  The Yanmar tech sent 
me a screen shot of the service manual.  I can't figure out how to do a link 
here and can't past the screen shot, but this is the info:

Service Categories

Use an engine oil the meets or exceeds the following guidelines and 
classifications:

  *   API Service Categories CD, CF, CF-4, CI, and CI-4.
  *   SAE Viscosity: 10W-30, 15W-40.  Engine oil 10W-30 and 15W-40 can be used 
throughout the year.

NOTICE

  *   Be sure...
  *   Change the oil...
  *   Select the viscosity based on the ambient temperature where the engine is 
operated.  See the SAE Service Grade Viscosity Chart (Figure 5).
  *   Yanmar does not recommend the use of engine oil "additives".

The Yanmar tech did not think there was any benefit to using synthetic oil.

I use 15W-40 Rotella T4 in Michigan.  Ambient temps during my May through 
September sailing season are 50 degrees to 80 degrees.   Works fine, as far as 
I can tell.

Jeff Laman
81 C&C34 Harmony (3GM -- 20hp)
Ludington, MI


From: dwight veinot via CnC-List 
Sent: Monday, September 26, 2022 4:15 PM
To: Stus-List 
Cc: dwight veinot 
Subject: Stus-List Re: Rotella T5 - 10w30 vs 15w40?

Yes Rotella is good oil. I use in 5W-40 T6 synthetic my diesel truck and it 
would be good for your Yanmar but it's expensive.  For sailboat engines which 
hardly ever run in freezing temps SAE 30 would be fine. Basically all 
lubricating oils nowadays will do. In my Universal M4-30 I used 10w-40 or 
15w-40 no special name.

On Mon, Sep 26, 2022 at 5:05 PM Bill Coleman via CnC-List 
mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>> wrote:
My Yanmar 4JH3 calls for 15-40. I think most use this, Rotella.

Bill Coleman

On Mon, Sep 26, 2022 at 3:51 PM Dave S via CnC-List 
mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>> wrote:
Does it matter in any practical sense whether I use 10W-30, which is available, 
versus 15 W 40, which was available last time I bought a jug…
Yanmar 2GM….  Thx.

Dave.

Sent from my iPhone
--
Sent from Gmail Mobile

Stus-List Re: C&C 35 MK I 170%

[Jeffrey A. Laman via CnC-List]

Joe,
I am interested. What are the dimensions? I have an 81 C&C34 with Harken furler.
Jeff Laman

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From: Della Barba, Joe via CnC-List 
Sent: Thursday, November 3, 2022 8:52:21 AM
To: Stus-List 
Cc: Della Barba, Joe 
Subject: Stus-List C&C 35 MK I 170%


Does anyone still use 170% genoas?

I have two that are old but with very little use. I’ll send them for shipping 
if anyone needs one or both. They are cut as deck-sweepers, if you have furling 
gear it needs to be the kind that comes off.



Joe

Coquina

Stus-List Re: C&C 35 MK I 170%

[Jeffrey A. Laman via CnC-List]

Hi Karl,
Can you describe the drifter? I may be interested. Thanks!
Jeff Laman
81C&C34 Harmony
Ludington Michigan

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From: Karl Erickson via CnC-List 
Sent: Thursday, November 3, 2022 1:45:35 PM
To: Stus-List 
Cc: Hoyt, Mike ; Karl Erickson 
Subject: Stus-List Re: C&C 35 MK I 170%

I have an old #1, #2, #3, drifter and Dual staysail for a 1978 C&C 34 that I 
don’t need. I was thinking of Seabags but if someone needs/wants them, let me 
know.

Karl Erickson

On Nov 3, 2022, at 11:22 AM, Hoyt, Mike via CnC-List  
wrote:



Jeff



That would likely sheet to the dinghy towed behind your 34



There was a story behind the use of 170 genoas back in the day but I forget 
what it was



Mike Hoyt

Persistence

Halifax



From: Jeffrey A. Laman via CnC-List 
Sent: November 3, 2022 12:30 PM
To: Stus-List 
Cc: Della Barba, Joe ; Jeffrey A. Laman 

Subject: Stus-List Re: C&C 35 MK I 170%



Joe,

I am interested. What are the dimensions? I have an 81 C&C34 with Harken furler.

Jeff Laman



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From: Della Barba, Joe via CnC-List 
Sent: Thursday, November 3, 2022 8:52:21 AM
To: Stus-List 
Cc: Della Barba, Joe 
Subject: Stus-List C&C 35 MK I 170%



Does anyone still use 170% genoas?

I have two that are old but with very little use. I’ll send them for shipping 
if anyone needs one or both. They are cut as deck-sweepers, if you have furling 
gear it needs to be the kind that comes off.



Joe

Coquina

Stus-List Re: Leather wheel cover

[Jeffrey A. Laman via CnC-List]

Bob and others,
I did the same as Bob -- bought a 300 ft spool of Paracord, navy blue to match 
canvas, and French whipped the entire wheel in one sitting. Added a Turks head 
knot at the top. Took me 6 hours on a windless afternoon, cost me some 
blisters, and a sunburn. But it was worth it. That was 5 years ago and it still 
looks fresh. I decided on this afternoon discovering the high price of leather. 
My boat budget had higher priorities!
Jeff Laman
81 C&C34 Harmony
Ludington Michigan

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From: Bob Mann via CnC-List 
Sent: Friday, December 2, 2022 12:26:29 AM
To: Stus-List 
Cc: Bob Mann 
Subject: Stus-List Re: Leather wheel cover

You should also consider covering it yourself, like this: Dress Up the Steering 
Wheel - Good Old 
Boat

I bought a 1000' spool of round braided polyester to do mine, learned how to 
tie the turks-head and other knots, and did it as a winter project about 3 
years ago.  No signs yet of wear and I use the boat 50 times a year on great 
lakes.

As I recall, the spool cost under $100 and it took me about 2 hours per section 
for each of the 8 sections and another 2 hours for each of the covering knots.  
I estimate I used less than 300' on my 36" wheel.

Bob Mann
Mystic
Detroit
On 12/01/2022 2:07 PM Charlie Nelson via CnC-List  wrote:


For about the same cost, you might consider shipping the wheel off to have it 
coated in a tough plastic material--forgot the name its been so long!

It was a PITA shipping the wheel (UPS did it without insisting it be in a box) 
and it is not as traditional as leather but it will never wear out--mine is 
going strong after at least 15 years. I had it covered in the same color as the 
hull.

Charlie Nelson
Water Phantom
1995 C&C 36 XL/kcb
New Bern, NC


-Original Message-
From: David Risch via CnC-List 
To: Stus-List 
Cc: David Risch 
Sent: Thu, Dec 1, 2022 1:00 pm
Subject: Stus-List Re: Leather wheel cover

Don’t forget the double sided tape to keep cover aligned.  I did and it is a 
bit of a pain…

From: John Read via CnC-List 
Sent: Monday, November 28, 2022 7:31 AM
To: 'Stus-List' 
Cc: 'CHARLES SCHEAFFER' ; John Read 

Subject: Stus-List Re: Leather wheel cover

Another thought used by my father back in the day was to get two automobile 
steering wheel covers each ½ the circumference of the boat wheel, cut each then 
glue together, use provided plastic “thread”.  Worked well and not expensive.  
As I recall they lasted quite a few years
.
John Read
Legacy III
1982 C&C 34
Noank, CT

From: John Read via CnC-List
Sent: Sunday, November 27, 2022 9:46 PM
To: 'Stus-List' mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>>
Cc: 'CHARLES SCHEAFFER' 
mailto:cscheaf...@comcast.net>>; John Read 
mailto:johnprea...@gmail.com>>
Subject: Stus-List Re: Leather wheel cover

HI Chuck

Installed the Edson version on my 40” wheel about 20 years ago.  Held up well 
and finally deteriorated so replaced last year with Edson.  I believe theirs is 
elk hide??  Very satisfying winter indoor project

John Read
Legacy III
1982 C&C 34
Noank, CT

From: CHARLES SCHEAFFER via CnC-List
Sent: Sunday, November 27, 2022 7:02 PM
To: CNC boat owners, cnc-list 
mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>>
Cc: CHARLES SCHEAFFER mailto:cscheaf...@comcast.net>>
Subject: Stus-List Leather wheel cover

Anybody replace their leather wheel cover lately?
I'm thinking of asking for a leather kit for my 52" wheel for Chistmas.  The 
Edson price is $380 and Defender offers a discount but thy are out of stock.  
Boatleather.com wants $300.  More if I add a foam liner.  Are there better 
sources?

Chuck Scheaffer, Resolute 1989 C&C 34R, Annapolis, Md
Don't forget to show your appreciation and help pay the bills.  Make a 
contribution at:
https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
Thanks for your help.
Charlie Nelson
Don't forget to show your appreciation and help pay the bills. Make a 
contribution at:
https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
Thanks for your help.
Robert Mann
Don't forget to show your appreciation and help pay the bills.  Make a 
contribution at:
https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
Thanks for your help.

Stus-List Re: C&C 34 aluminum plates on bulkhead

[Jeffrey A. Laman via CnC-List]

Mack,
I also have an 81C&C34. Ditto what Nathan said regarding the SS tabs. No issues 
on my boat. Do check chain plates, however, all the way down to plywood knee 
behind settee. Also check around SS tabs at top of forward bulkheads. After 42 
years, there will have been leaks somewhere.
Jeff Laman
81 C&C34 Harmony
Ludington Michigan

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From: Nathan Post via CnC-List 
Sent: Tuesday, January 31, 2023 2:31:09 PM
To: Stus-List 
Cc: Nathan Post 
Subject: Stus-List Re: C&C 34 aluminum plates on bulkhead

Hello Mack,
I have a 1981 C&C 34 and those outboard vertical plates on the bulkheads are 
stainless steel, not aluminum. I would be very skeptical if any of those 
components have been replaced with aluminum.  These components attach the deck 
to the bulkheads since to save cost (and allow the molded head liner) the 
bulkheads were not tabbed in to the deck. I haven't had leaks there on my boat 
at the point you describe (my genoa tracks seem well sealed).  However, the 
windows are hard to seal and might be leaking and so it is also possible that 
is where the water is coming from and then dripping down to the bulkhead (I 
would say that is in fact a likely source of water in that area). Of course 
also check that the bulkhead isn't rotted. The plates on top of the metal poles 
close to the main traveler also are a problematic leak point (for me on the 
starboard side a little water drips down the inside of that tube and ends up 
under the stove). I would agree that if the bulkhead is rotted beyond repair 
and needs to be replaced that might be a deal breaker.

Regardless you definitely want to check the whole deck for soft spots - around 
the head vent, chain plates and penetrations for the bulkhead attachments were 
the main problems on my boat (where I replaced the core in 2020 - see 
https://photos.app.goo.gl/8W4AdgmKqKxARvsY7
 if you are curious about what I did).  All repairable but good to know what 
you are getting into as it is a big project (I also glassed a lot of old holes 
that weren't needed and rebedded almost all the deck hardware, replaced the 
fixed windows, rebuilt the forward hatch, and added a bow roller and asym tack 
point 
https://photos.google.com/share/AF1QipN46y4vVixlceiv3AjB6UPNMGJqgTuuwxos4pobHlp1XsBQnteV-IcwYMBlBfcjXw?key=aTVDcEFMX3dzVFVSeFZVY256WWs5bkYtSlpWM2hR
 as part of the project).

Feel free to reach out if you have other questions on the boat.
Nathan
S/V Wisper
1981 C&C 34 KCB
Portland ME



On Tue, Jan 31, 2023 at 1:33 PM Mack McKinney via CnC-List 
mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>> wrote:
Hi everyone!

I'm seriously considering purchasing a 1980 C&C 34. I have yet to make
an in-person inspection, as the boat is 4 hours away, but in pictures I
notice attached to the partial bulkheads which separate the settees from
the galley/nav area there are what appear to be chainplates.  Those
aluminum plates are rather far aft for any standing rigging.  Their
purpose, I reckon, is to reinforce the genoa track (correct me if I'm
way off, and these are distinguished from the aluminum tubes which, I
suppose, reinforce the mainsheet traveler.  So, here's my question:
there is noticeable water incursion, as there is some streaking on the
port bulkhead below the "chainplate." I assume I need to be prepared for
deck core rot, and possible rot in the teak plywood of the bulkhead. The
extent of any rot, if it requires the replacement of that bulkhead, may
be a deal-breaker.  Thoughts? Am I on the right track?

Thanks,

Mack
Formerly C&C 30-104
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Stus-List Re: C&C 34 aluminum plates on bulkhead

[Jeffrey A. Laman via CnC-List]

SS, not aluminum. The tabs as I recall are on both sides of the nav station 
bulkhead. It secures the bulkhead, and likely integrates the deck into the 
structure.

Get Outlook for Android<https://aka.ms/AAb9ysg>

From: Mack McKinney via CnC-List 
Sent: Tuesday, January 31, 2023 2:55:05 PM
To: Jeffrey A. Laman via CnC-List 
Cc: Mack McKinney 
Subject: Stus-List Re: C&C 34 aluminum plates on bulkhead


Thanks, Jeff

Can you tell me what the aluminum plates bolted to the half-bulkhead ahead of 
the nav station is? They seem visible from the settee looking aft.

Mack

On 1/31/2023 14:42, Jeffrey A. Laman via CnC-List wrote:
Mack,
I also have an 81C&C34. Ditto what Nathan said regarding the SS tabs. No issues 
on my boat. Do check chain plates, however, all the way down to plywood knee 
behind settee. Also check around SS tabs at top of forward bulkheads. After 42 
years, there will have been leaks somewhere.
Jeff Laman
81 C&C34 Harmony
Ludington Michigan

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From: Nathan Post via CnC-List 
<mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>
Sent: Tuesday, January 31, 2023 2:31:09 PM
To: Stus-List <mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>
Cc: Nathan Post <mailto:nathan8...@gmail.com>
Subject: Stus-List Re: C&C 34 aluminum plates on bulkhead

Hello Mack,
I have a 1981 C&C 34 and those outboard vertical plates on the bulkheads are 
stainless steel, not aluminum. I would be very skeptical if any of those 
components have been replaced with aluminum.  These components attach the deck 
to the bulkheads since to save cost (and allow the molded head liner) the 
bulkheads were not tabbed in to the deck. I haven't had leaks there on my boat 
at the point you describe (my genoa tracks seem well sealed).  However, the 
windows are hard to seal and might be leaking and so it is also possible that 
is where the water is coming from and then dripping down to the bulkhead (I 
would say that is in fact a likely source of water in that area). Of course 
also check that the bulkhead isn't rotted. The plates on top of the metal poles 
close to the main traveler also are a problematic leak point (for me on the 
starboard side a little water drips down the inside of that tube and ends up 
under the stove). I would agree that if the bulkhead is rotted beyond repair 
and needs to be replaced that might be a deal breaker.

Regardless you definitely want to check the whole deck for soft spots - around 
the head vent, chain plates and penetrations for the bulkhead attachments were 
the main problems on my boat (where I replaced the core in 2020 - see 
https://photos.app.goo.gl/8W4AdgmKqKxARvsY7<https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fphotos.app.goo.gl%2F8W4AdgmKqKxARvsY7&data=05%7C01%7C%7C34fd8048445f4e4c7ffa08db03c51d56%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435%7C1%7C0%7C638107917357924319%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=oQJT9w4EQghb%2B3%2FlgCFcwxrfjbWpKNvOwMeJxrY7dmo%3D&reserved=0>
 if you are curious about what I did).  All repairable but good to know what 
you are getting into as it is a big project (I also glassed a lot of old holes 
that weren't needed and rebedded almost all the deck hardware, replaced the 
fixed windows, rebuilt the forward hatch, and added a bow roller and asym tack 
point 
https://photos.google.com/share/AF1QipN46y4vVixlceiv3AjB6UPNMGJqgTuuwxos4pobHlp1XsBQnteV-IcwYMBlBfcjXw?key=aTVDcEFMX3dzVFVSeFZVY256WWs5bkYtSlpWM2hR<https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fphotos.google.com%2Fshare%2FAF1QipN46y4vVixlceiv3AjB6UPNMGJqgTuuwxos4pobHlp1XsBQnteV-IcwYMBlBfcjXw%3Fkey%3DaTVDcEFMX3dzVFVSeFZVY256WWs5bkYtSlpWM2hR&data=05%7C01%7C%7C34fd8048445f4e4c7ffa08db03c51d56%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435%7C1%7C0%7C638107917357924319%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=aHVKKGrzXrclf8fntHVrXo3Z1pscYl12qhZNQ3cfKaU%3D&reserved=0>
 as part of the project).

Feel free to reach out if you have other questions on the boat.
Nathan
S/V Wisper
1981 C&C 34 KCB
Portland ME



On Tue, Jan 31, 2023 at 1:33 PM Mack McKinney via CnC-List 
mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>> wrote:
Hi everyone!

I'm seriously considering purchasing a 1980 C&C 34. I have yet to make
an in-person inspection, as the boat is 4 hours away, but in pictures I
notice attached to the partial bulkheads which separate the settees 

Stus-List Re: Chandleries

[Jeffrey A. Laman via CnC-List]

Bill,
Over the past several years I have found that Wholesale Marine is the lowest 
price for bottom paint.

https://www.wholesalemarine.com/

They typically have a paint sale or rebate offer right about now.  I see that 
VC17 is on sale now.

Otherwise, I look around and have used a number of different online retailers.  
The retailer depends on what I am looking for.

I haven't purchased anything from Defender in quite a while, but used to.  
Didn't know they were acquired -- explains the prices.  I purchase from West 
only when I need something quick or want to put my hands on it to examine 
before purchase.  Turned out the new fuel tank I put in last year was offered  
lowest price at West.  Never know. There is a store near me.

Jeff Laman
81 C&C34 "Harmony"
Ludington, MI

From: Bill Coleman via CnC-List 
Sent: Friday, March 10, 2023 11:27 AM
To: Stus-List 
Cc: Bill Coleman 
Subject: Stus-List Chandleries

Most people I talk to are disappointed at the direction Defender has been going 
after being purchased by a Hedge Fund, or whomever, and West has been pretty 
pricey since Randy Repass left years ago, and now that doesn't look too good -


 Rising Tide Holdings to SD, which means selective default. “We view the 
transaction as tantamount to a default because creditors will receive less 
value than originally promised, and we view the exchange as distressed,” S&P 
wrote.>>

I guess Rising Tides, dba West Marine, is ebbing.

Does anyone  have any favorites for Parts, like BOE Marine, Go2Marine, etc?  I 
can't find my bottom paint for less than $395 A Gallon. Even Fishermen's supply 
is not that great anymore.

Bill Coleman
Entrada Erie, PA
Please show your appreciation for this list and the Photo Album site and help 
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Thanks for your help.
Stu

Stus-List Re: Question and Report

[Jeffrey A. Laman via CnC-List]

Aging and leaking aluminum fuel tanks is an excellent topic!  Boats, even fresh 
water, that are 40 or more years old are very likely to experience aluminum 
fuel tank leaks.  In my case, the leak started over winter and about 7 gallons 
of fuel went out my garboard drain onto the ground.  Really bad.  Marina 
solution was to plug my drain, so diesel fuel started accumulating in the 
bilge.  I lived hundreds of miles from boat so a difficult situation.  I 
alerted marina that my bilge pump would soon start spewing diesel fuel out the 
side if they didn't drain my tank.  Long story short, don't let this disaster 
happen to you.

I ordered a Moeller plastic tank through West Marine, the lowest price by far 
at the time.  The old aluminum tank was 20 gallons and had no visible holes.  
The new Moeller, off the shelf tank is 19 gallons and almost exactly the same 
dimensions.  Slid the old aluminum tank out, slid the new tank in, replaced all 
fuel hoses, including fill hose, and no problems.

There are some, I believe, unsubstantiated concerns about plastic fuel tanks.  
In my opinion, plastic is superior -- doesn't corrode and the fuel level is 
visible through the wall of the tank.  Many boats, mine among them, have a 
problematic fuel gage.  Tried to fix when replacing tank, but decided it wasn't 
worth more time.  Just look at the tank.  Foolproof.

Jeff Laman
81 C&C34 Harmony
Ludington, MI

From: John Read via CnC-List 
Sent: Tuesday, May 9, 2023 8:15 AM
To: 'Stus-List' ; wolf...@erie.net 
Cc: John Read 
Subject: Stus-List Re: Question and Report


I replaced my fuel tank a few years ago as a precautionary measure to avoid pin 
hole leaks in mid-summer.  After much discussion was advised to have a new 
aluminum tank fabricated of aircraft grade material to match the old.  Main 
reasons to not use a plastic tank are they are supposedly designed for an open 
air situation, not permanently installed in the interior and are susceptible to 
rupture in a fire spilling fuel on the fire.  Yes cost more but peace of mind 
is priceless.



John Read

Legacy III

1982 C&C 34

Noank, CT



From: Matt Wolford via CnC-List
Sent: Monday, May 08, 2023 11:31 PM
To: 'Stus-List' 
Cc: wolf...@erie.net
Subject: Stus-List Question and Report



Listers:



Hope all is well.



First, I have a question.  A friend of mine who owns a C&C 41 
(probably ‘80s vintage) discovered that his aluminum diesel tank is leaking.  
He plans to pull it tomorrow to confirm.  I talked briefly with Bill Coleman on 
this list, and he suggested replacing the aluminum tank with a plastic tank.  
Does anyone know a source for a plastic replacement diesel tank that will fit 
this boat?  (I assume it’s about 20 gallons.)  Please advise.  Thanks.



Second, I thought I’d report on a recent discovery you may find 
interesting.  As most of you know, my boat is a C&C 42 Custom, “Custom” meaning 
that it was not a production run boat and was built in the Bruckmann shop.  Six 
of these  “stick boats” were built in the mid ‘70s.  Every year about this time 
of year, I get annoyed by a stubborn crack that appears near the top of the 
forward edge of the keel, near the top where it meets the hull.  As most of you 
understand, this is the front of the so-called C&C smile.  On my boat, the C&C 
smile crack runs along the bottom of the hull where the keel is mated, more or 
less parallel to the bottom of the hull (the “main smile”).  However, I have a 
second C&C smile that starts at the forward edge of the keel about four of five 
inches below the forward edge of the main smile, then tapers up toward the 
bottom of the hull, eventually meeting the main smile about 2/3 of the way back 
to the aft edge of the keel.  I never understood why I get this “second smile.”



A few weeks ago some water was seeping out of the stubborn crack at the front 
edge of the main smile, and I asked my guru to find out what the heck is going 
on.  After some grinding and drilling, he informed me that my keel was probably 
not made to fit my boat.  Instead, the keel from another boat was adapted to 
fit my boat by creating a lead “wedge” piece (sort of like a big shim) that is 
widest at the forward edge of the keel and tapers going aft.  This wedge fits 
between the top of the original keel and the hull, giving me two mating seams 
and thus two C&C smiles.  Apparently, my boat is very happy.



Matt



Matt Wolford

C&C 42 Custom

Erie, PA
Please show your appreciation for this list and the Photo Album site and help 
me pay the associated bills.  Make a contribution at:
https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
Thanks for your help.
Stu

Stus-List Re: Dead Battery Charger

[Jeffrey A. Laman via CnC-List]

As mentioned below, depends on what you need and how you use power. You can 
spend many hundreds of dollars, even thousands for lithium, inverter etc, or 
less than a hundred. I have all LED lights and don't often get far from home 
slip and shore power. I have a two bank, 4 amp/bank charger and lead acid. 
Start and house. Lead acid lasts me about 8 years and never ran out of power. 
Rather use boat bucks for sails, lines, blocks, etc. :-)
Jeff Laman
81C&C34. Harmony
Ludington Michigan


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From: Tom Buscaglia via CnC-List 
Sent: Monday, June 26, 2023 2:20:11 PM
To: Stus-List 
Cc: Tom Buscaglia 
Subject: Stus-List Re: Dead Battery Charger

We have one house  and the start battery under the settee right behind the sink 
and a second house battery in the locker at the forward end of the settee which 
is connected to the windlass.  Just pulled he lead acid and went with AGMs.

1990 37+/40

Tom Buscaglia
P 206.463.9200
F 206.463.9290
C 305.409.3660
Skype - thombusc

On Jun 26, 2023, at 9:33 AM, Chris Riedinger via CnC-List 
 wrote:


We have 2 4D house batteries mounted directly forward of the galley sink in the 
settee and our inverter charger is in the locker behind the stbd seat back.

Our start battery is located under the aft berth

This on a c&c 37/40+

On Mon, Jun 26, 2023, 8:01 AM Dave S via CnC-List 
mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>> wrote:
Just went through this on my new boat.
While it really depends on how you intend use the boat,  I would consider an 
inverter/charger and provide for an eventual upgrade to group 31 lithium 
batteries and a dedicated AGM start battery.
I chose the Victron Multiplus 12/1600/70

Dave
33-2 Windstar
Alubat OVNI 435

Sent from my iPhone

On Jun 26, 2023, at 10:23 AM, Chuck Saur via CnC-List 
mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>> wrote:


Hello gang...

My battery charger died this weekend.  Its demise was swift, but provides an 
opportunity.  It was a ProMariner Sport 20amp, and apparently did a good job.  
But...since I am not an expert in this field...and need to part with boat bucks 
anyway, do you guys have better ideas?

I have two new group 27 combo batteries. No room for a third on my C$C 37/40+.  
What setups do you guys have?  Thanks.



Chuck Saur

517 490-5926 Cell




Please show your appreciation for this list and the Photo Album site and help 
me pay the associated bills.  Make a contribution at:
https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
Thanks for your help.
Stu
Please show your appreciation for this list and the Photo Album site and help 
me pay the associated bills.  Make a contribution at:
https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
Thanks for your help.
Stu
Please show your appreciation for this list and the Photo Album site and help 
me pay the associated bills.  Make a contribution at:
https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
Thanks for your help.
Stu
Please show your appreciation for this list and the Photo Album site and help 
me pay the associated bills.  Make a contribution at:
https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
Thanks for your help.
Stu

Stus-List Re: Accurate Fuel Tank Measurements

[Jeffrey A. Laman via CnC-List]

My fuel gage never worked. Last year the 42-yr-old aluminum tank sprung a leak. 
Replaced with plastic tank that is translucent. No need for a gage any more. 
Just look at the tank. 100% accurate.

If your aluminum tank is 40-yrs-old, maybe preemptively replace it? It will 
leak eventually and it's a mess.

Also curious about rationale for keeping tank full. You are in a warmish 
location so condensation would seem to be minimal. Are you concerned about 
never having a fresh tank of fuel, constantly mixing a little fresh with the 
old?

Jeff Laman
81 C&C34 Harmony
Ludington Michigan

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From: Peter W. via CnC-List 
Sent: Tuesday, June 27, 2023 8:18:48 PM
To: Stus-List 
Cc: Korbey Hunt ; Peter W. 
Subject: Stus-List Re: Accurate Fuel Tank Measurements

Possibly.  I’ll investigate. Thanks.

Sent from my iPad

> On Jun 27, 2023, at 8:14 PM, Korbey Hunt via CnC-List  
> wrote:
>
> Can you add a sight guage?  Tap holes at bottom and top of tank.  Add an 
> elbow fitting with clear fuel line material.
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Tom Buscaglia via CnC-List 
> Sent: Tuesday, June 27, 2023 12:52 PM
> To: Peter W. via CnC-List 
> Cc: Tom Buscaglia 
> Subject: Stus-List Re: Accurate Fuel Tank Measurements
>
> I use my Hobbes meter.  I take a picture at each fill-up and try to keep the 
> tank at least 1/2 full. I have a pretty accurate picture of my per hour 
> consumption. Seems close enough for me.
>
>> On 6/27/2023 11:08 AM, Peter W. via CnC-List wrote:
>> I like to keep my fuel tank as full as possible as the best way to keep out 
>> water.
>>
>> Can anyone share their procedure to determine (with reasonable accuracy) how 
>> much fuel their tank holds, at any given time?
>> While I have a fuel gauge, it isn't very accurate as it under-estimates how 
>> much fuel is in tank (by several gallons).
>> I'm thinking of trying to use a wood or plastic dowel, but that would 
>> require a "straight shot" to the tank bottom (I.e., no bends or 
>> obstructions).
>> Any thoughts?
>>
>> Pete W.
>> Siren Song
>> C&C 30-2
>> Irvington, Va
>>
>> Sent from my iPad
>> Please show your appreciation for this list and the Photo Album site and 
>> help me pay the associated bills.  Make a contribution at:
>> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.p%2F&data=05%7C01%7C%7C74473fbd68af4b2e555608db776d5585%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435%7C1%7C0%7C638235083688407554%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=XxDpURZScy12MkLkWTIf7Rka76p2VA38hkplIkdGrhk%3D&reserved=0
>> aypal.me%2Fstumurray&data=05%7C01%7C%7C611b354ad52e4baad33e08db77480dd
>> 3%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435%7C1%7C0%7C638234923578751716%7CUn
>> known%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haW
>> wiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=K%2F2MOZ%2FYuWsk9GmmWQRi7lbCZYe
>> QLMP9jj1XIfyy5hA%3D&reserved=0
>> Thanks for your help.
>> Stu
>
> --
> (\
> Tom Buscaglia
> SV Alera
> C&C 37+/40
> Vashon Island WA
> (305) 409-3660
> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.sv-alera.com%2F&data=05%7C01%7C%7C74473fbd68af4b2e555608db776d5585%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435%7C1%7C0%7C638235083688407554%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=b9Bx75WPu85e7ZBhIU1QtZV9nLVbWTA%2F2tcWYSc%2FYv4%3D&reserved=0
> Please show your appreciation for this list and the Photo Album site and help 
> me pay the associated bills.  Make a contribution at:
> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.paypal.me%2Fstumurray&data=05%7C01%7C%7C74473fbd68af4b2e555608db776d5585%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435%7C1%7C0%7C638235083688563804%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=%2FagMNvszgAFclkqmkx%2BNWdreky9%2F%2FXcoznqFsidOprU%3D&reserved=0
> Thanks for your help.
> Stu
> Please show your appreciation for this list and the Photo Album site and help 
> me pay the associated bills.  Make a contribution at:
> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.paypal.me%2Fstumurray&data=05%7C01%7C%7C74473fbd68af4b2e555608db776d5585%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435%7C1%7C0%7C638235083688563804%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=%2FagMNvszgAFclkqmkx%2BNWdreky9%2F%2FXcoznqFsidOprU%3D&reserved=0
> Thanks for your help.
> Stu
Please show your appreciation for this list and the Photo Album site and help 
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Stus-List Re: pipe dope for Exhaust Riser

[Jeffrey A. Laman via CnC-List]

I will be very interested in this discussion as I plan to replace my exhaust 
riser assembly soon.  I recently had a propane gas line installed in my house 
and the technician cringed at the telfon tape used on the existing pipe.  Not 
the same thing of course, but never would have expected teflon tape does not 
meet building code!

Also, if anyone reading this thread has a source recommendation for an exhaust 
riser/mixing elbow supplier, I would be grateful.  Engine is a 1981 Yanmar 3GM 
20 hp (not the 30 hp as in many boats).

Jeff Laman
1981 C&C34 Harmony
Ludington, MI

From: Doug Mountjoy via CnC-List 
Sent: Saturday, July 15, 2023 10:01 AM
To: Stus-List 
Cc: Doug Mountjoy 
Subject: Stus-List Re: pipe dope for Exhaust Riser

I use Teflon tape on the pipe threads. A couple of wraps is good.

Douglas Mountjoy
1988 LF 39
Mexico at large
1984 Sabre 34
Port Orchard, WA


On Sat, Jul 15, 2023, 06:30 CHARLES SCHEAFFER via CnC-List 
mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>> wrote:
Here's a question for the mechanics in the group.

I am replacing the engine's exhaust riser or mixing elbow and associated 
threaded 1 1/4" and 1 1/2" nipples, and want to use the right pipe dope that 
can handle the heat and make a good seal and hopefully make it easier to take 
apart for the next person.

I've been adised to use Never-Sieze on the bolts holding the flange and want to 
use Megaloc by Hercules on the pipe threads, but don't see any temperature 
stats on the can.

Any suggestions?

Chuck Scheaffer, Resolute, 1989 C&C 34R Annapolis
Please show your appreciation for this list and the Photo Album site and help 
me pay the associated bills.  Make a contribution at:
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Thanks for your help.
Stu
Please show your appreciation for this list and the Photo Album site and help 
me pay the associated bills.  Make a contribution at:
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Thanks for your help.
Stu

Stus-List C&C34 Yanmar 3GM 20hp Exhaust Elbow

[Jeffrey A. Laman via CnC-List]

Hello Yanmar 3GM owners,
I need to replace the U-type mixing elbow and exhaust elbow assembly on my 3GM 
20hp.  If this topic has been discussed here previously, my apologies -- I 
attempted a search of the archives but not sure I am conducting the search 
correctly.
There seems to be debate about stainless steel vs cast iron and welded SS vs 
cast SS.  There is a complete SS kit at https://hdimarine.net/product/gm-kit/ 
that appears to be high quality and reasonably priced (for a boat part...).  I 
will be grateful for any advice on source for the exhaust elbow/mixing elbow 
and cast iron vs SS vs cast SS.  Also, advice regarding the replacement job as 
I will do this myself.  Thanks.
Jeff Laman
1981 C&C34 Harmony
Ludington, MI
Please show your appreciation for this list and the Photo Album site and help 
me pay the associated bills.  Make a contribution at:
https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
Thanks for your help.
Stu

Stus-List Re: C&C34 Yanmar 3GM 20hp Exhaust Elbow

[Jeffrey A. Laman via CnC-List]

Chuck can respond for his situation, but in my case, 10 yrs ago the exhaust 
elbow came apart while previous owner was motoring out of marina. I happened to 
be crew at the time. Big mess. PO had a plumber friend fabricate a replacement 
exhaust elbow and mixer out of regular pipe I assume. That's what I now have 
and it needs to finally be replaced before I start more extensive cruising next 
summer. Plus, I suspect the exhaust may be getting clogged.
Jeff Laman

Get Outlook for Android<https://aka.ms/AAb9ysg>

From: David Knecht via CnC-List 
Sent: Sunday, July 16, 2023 9:01:42 PM
To: Stus-List 
Cc: davidakne...@gmail.com 
Subject: Stus-List Re: C&C34 Yanmar 3GM 20hp Exhaust Elbow

Hi chuck. What made you decide to replace it?  Problems or trying to prevent 
them?  Dave

Sent from my iPhone

On Jul 16, 2023, at 7:53 PM, CHARLES SCHEAFFER via CnC-List 
 wrote:


That SS kit looks really nice if it matches your engine.

FWIW, it wouldn't match my Universal M4-30.  So I'm replacing the exhaust riser 
mixing elbow with the same thing that lasted for 34 years.  It has an iron 3 
bolt flange at the engine, iron pipe nipples and aluminum casting for the elbow 
made by Barr.  It's much more compact than a SS aftermarket elbow would be.  
Parts should arrive in a few days.  I may get some SS nipples for it, if 
they're not too pricey.

Chuck Scheaffer, Resolute 1989 C&C 34R, Annapolis
On 07/16/2023 7:12 PM EDT Jeffrey A. Laman via CnC-List  
wrote:


Hello Yanmar 3GM owners,
I need to replace the U-type mixing elbow and exhaust elbow assembly on my 3GM 
20hp.  If this topic has been discussed here previously, my apologies -- I 
attempted a search of the archives but not sure I am conducting the search 
correctly.
There seems to be debate about stainless steel vs cast iron and welded SS vs 
cast SS.  There is a complete SS kit at https://hdimarine.net/product/gm-kit/ 
that appears to be high quality and reasonably priced (for a boat part...).  I 
will be grateful for any advice on source for the exhaust elbow/mixing elbow 
and cast iron vs SS vs cast SS.  Also, advice regarding the replacement job as 
I will do this myself.  Thanks.
Jeff Laman
1981 C&C34 Harmony
Ludington, MI
Please show your appreciation for this list and the Photo Album site and help 
me pay the associated bills. Make a contribution at:
https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
Thanks for your help.
Stu
Please show your appreciation for this list and the Photo Album site and help 
me pay the associated bills.  Make a contribution at:
https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
Thanks for your help.
Stu
Please show your appreciation for this list and the Photo Album site and help 
me pay the associated bills.  Make a contribution at:
https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
Thanks for your help.
Stu

cnc-list@cnc-list.com

[Jeffrey A. Laman via CnC-List]

Hello all,
I have attempted to search the archives for information and opinions on new 
primary winches for C&C34, but was not able to locate a discussion.  If there 
has been, my apologies.  It has become apparent that the old, Lewmar, 
self-tailing, 2-spd winches that came on my boat are not adequate -- in a 
moderate wind with a 155 genoa it takes two crew cranking with all their 
strength to bring the sheet in far enough.  I and the crew are not getting 
younger, either -- average age about 65 to 70.  I don't know the details of 
gear ratios and power ratio for these old Lewmars, but am investigating so I 
have that as a reference.  If any of you C&C34, or similar sized boat, owners 
have recommendations for replacement, 2-spd, self-tailing winches, I would be 
grateful.  I frequently sail solo and hope to be able to continue for another 
10 to 15 years (if I live to be 80!), so I need to factor that in the decision. 
 Also, any experiences or recommendations for the actual removal and 
installation would be great too!  Thanks.

Jeff Laman
1981 C&C34 Harmony
Ludington, MI
Please show your appreciation for this list and the Photo Album site and help 
me pay the associated bills.  Make a contribution at:
https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
Thanks for your help.
Stu

cnc-list@cnc-list.com

[Jeffrey A. Laman via CnC-List]

Yes, point well taken on slowing the turn.  I have gotten fairly good at 
keeping an eye on the competition, chart plotter, headsail, and the trimmers 
while tacking.  Overall it's much better to take the turn a little slower and 
limit the grinding.  But, even minimal grinding with current winches is very 
difficult.  I need to look into new winches for sure.

From: Richard Bush via CnC-List 
Sent: Tuesday, September 12, 2023 12:59 PM
To: Jeffrey A. Laman via CnC-List 
Cc: Richard Bush 
Subject: Stus-List Re: Winch Size for C&C34

I second Charlie's points about the timing; it took my a while to learn to turn 
the wheel more slowly to allow the trimmers to get the line in!

1985 C&C 37 CB; Ohio River, Mile 584;
Richard
Richard N. Bush Law Offices
2950 Breckenridge Lane, Suite Nine
Louisville, Kentucky 40220
(502) 584-7255


On Tuesday, September 12, 2023 at 11:39:43 AM EDT, cenelson--- via CnC-List 
 wrote:


I still have the original headsail winches on my 1995 C&C 36 XL/kcb--Lewmar 50s 
self-tailing 2 speed IIRC--although I moved them forward for my local racing 
needs.  I also added a set of Lewmar 44s to make kite handling more reasonable. 
If this combination of 'power' is not enough, I need to get drop my sails and 
get into port somewhere!!

However, even these winches for the genoa can seem to be underpowered if the 
helm is not in tune with the headsail as it crosses the boat. I find it 
especially important to not turn the boat too fast during the tack. The helm 
needs to turn the wheel slowly, especially within say +/- 10-15 degrees of head 
to wind, before the genoa begins to fill on the new tack.

This will allow most of the new active sheet to be brought in hand over hand 
with very little pressure on it so that when it fills, there is only a few feet 
to winch in with a handle.

I have found that with a 155% headsail, a 'quick' tack is usually a bad one 
since the grinders have to seriously grind in too much line with the genoa 
filled. This is a good example of using better 'timing' during the tack to 
reduce the serious winching required otherwise. If you are racing, climbing 
back to close-hauled from a tack that was too fast with the genoa too far out 
loses a lot of ground to windward to your competitors on every 'fast' tack.

BTW, if you add/replace any winches be mindful of where you mount them. My 
cockpit was originally set up more for cruising so the headsail winches were 
aft in the cockpit. As I did more club racing, in order to have room in the 
cockpit for flying a masthead symmetrical kite, I had to move them forward and 
add a set (44s) to handle the kite. I think the original thought was to fly the 
kite from winches on the cockpit bulkhead either side of the companionway which 
were Lewmar 30s. This turned out to be totally underpowered for my kite AND it 
concentrated too many bodies together at the companionway in each other's way 
most of the time. Further, even when I moved the 30s to the cockpit coaming aft 
of the headsail winches, I found the 30s to be underpowered for my kite--thus I 
replaced them with the 44s.

Until I added the 44s, we tried to use the headsail winches for the kite which 
had plenty of power--however, moving the kite and genoa sheets during racing 
was much too confusing and time consuming.

FWIW

Charlie Nelson
Water Phantom
1995 C&C 36XL/kcb





Please show your appreciation for this list and the Photo Album site and help 
me pay the associated bills.  Make a contribution at:
https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
Thanks for your help.
Stu

cnc-list@cnc-list.com

[Jeffrey A. Laman via CnC-List]

Mike,
Thanks for the data point.  The two boats are very similar.  I don't think 
Lewmar makes a 43 anymore.  I am seeing a 40 and a 45.  According to the Lewmar 
charts a 40 is correctly sized for the C&C34.  But, I am thinking about the 45 
-- either Lewmar or other manufacturer -- to include the aging muscles factor...
Jeff

From: Hoyt, Mike via CnC-List 
Sent: Tuesday, September 12, 2023 12:48 PM
To: 'Stus-List' 
Cc: Hoyt, Mike 
Subject: Stus-List Re: Winch Size for C&C34


Hi Jeff



We have a Frers 33.  The foretriangle dimensions are similar.  On F33 I=45.0, 
J=13.33 . On C&C34 I=44, J=14



We have Lewmar 43 ST for primaries and they are adequately sized



On a side note we purchased Lewmar 30ST for cabintop halyard winches in 2014.  
I think they have doubled in price since then so be prepared for sticker shock



Mike  Hoyt

Persistence

Halifax, NS

www.hoytsailing.com



From: Jeffrey A. Laman via CnC-List 
Sent: Tuesday, September 12, 2023 11:46 AM
To: Stus-List 
Cc: Jeffrey A. Laman 
Subject: Stus-List Re: Winch Size for C&C34



Hello all, I have attempted to search the archives for information and opinions 
on new primary winches for C&C34, but was not able to locate a discussion. If 
there has been, my apologies. It has become apparent that the old, Lewmar, 
self-tailing,

Hello all,

I have attempted to search the archives for information and opinions on new 
primary winches for C&C34, but was not able to locate a discussion.  If there 
has been, my apologies.  It has become apparent that the old, Lewmar, 
self-tailing, 2-spd winches that came on my boat are not adequate -- in a 
moderate wind with a 155 genoa it takes two crew cranking with all their 
strength to bring the sheet in far enough.  I and the crew are not getting 
younger, either -- average age about 65 to 70.  I don't know the details of 
gear ratios and power ratio for these old Lewmars, but am investigating so I 
have that as a reference.  If any of you C&C34, or similar sized boat, owners 
have recommendations for replacement, 2-spd, self-tailing winches, I would be 
grateful.  I frequently sail solo and hope to be able to continue for another 
10 to 15 years (if I live to be 80!), so I need to factor that in the decision. 
 Also, any experiences or recommendations for the actual removal and 
installation would be great too!  Thanks.



Jeff Laman

1981 C&C34 Harmony

Ludington, MI
Please show your appreciation for this list and the Photo Album site and help 
me pay the associated bills.  Make a contribution at:
https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
Thanks for your help.
Stu

cnc-list@cnc-list.com

[Jeffrey A. Laman via CnC-List]

Nathan,
Thanks for this data point!  I wish it were possible to test run some winches 
before buying -- hah!  ST50 seems large, but better a little large than two 
small.
Jeff

From: Nathan Post via CnC-List 
Sent: Tuesday, September 12, 2023 1:00 PM
To: Stus-List 
Cc: Nathan Post 
Subject: Stus-List Re: Winch Size for C&C34

Hi Jeff,

I replaced my primaries on my 34 with Anderson ST 50 winches in 2000. They seem 
sized correctly to me - I certainly wouldn't go smaller. They work fine for 
hauling in my 135 Genoa fully loaded up but it is about all a typical crew can 
handle by themselves. If I was to do it again, I would pay the extra for Lewmar 
Ocean winches of equivalent size or maybe even one size up instead.

Nathan

~~~
Nathan Post
S/V Wisper
1981 C&C 34
Lynn, MA (currently in Rockport ME)
Please show your appreciation for this list and the Photo Album site and help 
me pay the associated bills.  Make a contribution at:
https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
Thanks for your help.
Stu

cnc-list@cnc-list.com

[Jeffrey A. Laman via CnC-List]

Mike and others who have provided valuable input,

This information on electric is very useful.  I wasn't intending to purchase 
electric in any case due to cost.

I went to boat this afternoon.  Ashamed to say I did not even know what size 
the existing winches are.  They are Lewmar/England 42ST, likely original to 
boat, therefore 42 years old.  From what I am hearing from everyone, a Lewmar 
42ST should be adequate for a C&C34.  But man, even in 12 knts wind it takes 
the full strength of two crew to get the last 2 feet in.  I was sensing that 
the winch handle was about to break.

After reading more this afternoon, I am sure the winches are way past due for 
servicing.  Lewmar recommends 2 to 3 times a season!  This may be part, if not 
all, of the problem.  I suspect the winches were disassembled and greased about 
10 to 12 years ago. Before that, who knows.

Is a set of 42 year old winches worth disassembling, cleaning, greasing, and 
reassembling?  Will this result in a significant improvement?  What parts of 
the winch typically need to be replaced and can those Lewmar parts be obtained 
for such an old winch?

Thanks again for all the very helpful advice on winch sizes.

Jeff Laman
1981 C&C34 Harmony
Ludington, MI


From: Hoyt, Mike via CnC-List 
Sent: Tuesday, September 12, 2023 2:43 PM
To: 'Stus-List' 
Cc: Hoyt, Mike 
Subject: Stus-List Electric Winches - Winch Size for C&C34


Persistence came to us with Electric Lewmar 43ST winches for the primaries.  
There were no secondaries.  For cruising ease the primaries had been located 
where secondaries normally would be and the mounting locations for the original 
primaries were faired and painted over.  The second set of manual Lewmar 43ST 
winches were mounted on the cabin top for use as halyard winches.  THIS WAS WAY 
OVERKILL!



ST43 as halyard winches way larger than necessary.  Jib trimmers facing 
backward to trim genoa was awkward to say the least.  So we moved the cabin top 
Lewmar 43ST back to the original primary location and replaced cabin top 
halyard winches with Lewmar 30ST (Ocean series I believe)



This still left us with electric Lewmar 43 ST.  First of all an electric winch 
can be nasty.  An inexperienced trimmer can damage the headsail using one.  We 
always had the switches turned off and used as a manual winch.  Secondly these 
were AWFUL to maintain.  To service the winches the motor has to be dropped 
from beneath before the drums can come off to clean and lubricate the gears, 
pawls, etc …  Due to this and due to the lack of accessibility from beneath to 
do this these winches were rarely serviced and never properly.  When running 
the spinnaker on these secondaries they were stiff and made spin handling more 
problematic than it should be (due to the lack of east servicing).



In the end we traded these to someone with a pilothouse 44 foot boat for a set 
of new Lewmar 40 ST that are far superior for our purposes.  On top of the ease 
of servicing and better sizing for the boat removing the motors took away a LOT 
of unnecessary weight



Just a story I thought I would share



We are very happy with all of our Lewmar winches BTW



Mike Hoyt

Persistence

Halifax, NS



From: nausetbeach--- via CnC-List 
Sent: Tuesday, September 12, 2023 3:23 PM
To: 'Stus-List' 
Cc: nausetbe...@optonline.net
Subject: Stus-List Re: Winch Size for C&C34



Some other thoughts: For whatever you decide, believe both WM and Defender have 
BOGO days on winches during the year which could help reduce the wallet pain. 
Electric winches are more than a little $ more. Have heard / read good things 
about

Some other thoughts:



For whatever you decide, believe both WM and Defender have BOGO days on winches 
during the year which could help reduce the wallet pain.



Electric winches are more than a little $ more.  Have heard / read good things 
about the “eWincher” as a viable alternative for people who do not want to make 
the investment in electric winches.



Brian
Please show your appreciation for this list and the Photo Album site and help 
me pay the associated bills.  Make a contribution at:
https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
Thanks for your help.
Stu

cnc-list@cnc-list.com

[Jeffrey A. Laman via CnC-List]

Brian,
Thanks for the note about the "ewincher".  Makes a lot of sense for cost and 
maintenance reasons.  But, having lost a couple winch handles overboard, I 
doubt the $1650 ewincher floats.  Could be something to consider for the future 
when my arms are just too old.  Not there yet!

https://www.ewincher.com/en/

Jeff

From: nausetbeach--- via CnC-List 
Sent: Tuesday, September 12, 2023 2:23 PM
To: 'Stus-List' 
Cc: nausetbe...@optonline.net 
Subject: Stus-List Re: Winch Size for C&C34


Some other thoughts:



For whatever you decide, believe both WM and Defender have BOGO days on winches 
during the year which could help reduce the wallet pain.



Electric winches are more than a little $ more.  Have heard / read good things 
about the “eWincher” as a viable alternative for people who do not want to make 
the investment in electric winches.



Brian



From: Jeffrey A. Laman via CnC-List 
Sent: Tuesday, September 12, 2023 1:25 PM
To: 'Stus-List' 
Cc: Hoyt, Mike ; Jeffrey A. Laman 
Subject: Stus-List Re: Winch Size for C&C34



Mike,

Thanks for the data point.  The two boats are very similar.  I don't think 
Lewmar makes a 43 anymore.  I am seeing a 40 and a 45.  According to the Lewmar 
charts a 40 is correctly sized for the C&C34.  But, I am thinking about the 45 
-- either Lewmar or other manufacturer -- to include the aging muscles factor...

Jeff



From: Hoyt, Mike via CnC-List 
mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>>
Sent: Tuesday, September 12, 2023 12:48 PM
To: 'Stus-List' mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>>
Cc: Hoyt, Mike mailto:mike.h...@impgroup.com>>
Subject: Stus-List Re: Winch Size for C&C34



Hi Jeff



We have a Frers 33.  The foretriangle dimensions are similar.  On F33 I=45.0, 
J=13.33 . On C&C34 I=44, J=14



We have Lewmar 43 ST for primaries and they are adequately sized



On a side note we purchased Lewmar 30ST for cabintop halyard winches in 2014.  
I think they have doubled in price since then so be prepared for sticker shock



Mike  Hoyt

Persistence

Halifax, NS

www.hoytsailing.com<http://www.hoytsailing.com/>



From: Jeffrey A. Laman via CnC-List 
mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>>
Sent: Tuesday, September 12, 2023 11:46 AM
To: Stus-List mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>>
Cc: Jeffrey A. Laman mailto:jlam...@outlook.com>>
Subject: Stus-List Re: Winch Size for C&C34



Hello all, I have attempted to search the archives for information and opinions 
on new primary winches for C&C34, but was not able to locate a discussion. If 
there has been, my apologies. It has become apparent that the old, Lewmar, 
self-tailing,

Hello all,

I have attempted to search the archives for information and opinions on new 
primary winches for C&C34, but was not able to locate a discussion.  If there 
has been, my apologies.  It has become apparent that the old, Lewmar, 
self-tailing, 2-spd winches that came on my boat are not adequate -- in a 
moderate wind with a 155 genoa it takes two crew cranking with all their 
strength to bring the sheet in far enough.  I and the crew are not getting 
younger, either -- average age about 65 to 70.  I don't know the details of 
gear ratios and power ratio for these old Lewmars, but am investigating so I 
have that as a reference.  If any of you C&C34, or similar sized boat, owners 
have recommendations for replacement, 2-spd, self-tailing winches, I would be 
grateful.  I frequently sail solo and hope to be able to continue for another 
10 to 15 years (if I live to be 80!), so I need to factor that in the decision. 
 Also, any experiences or recommendations for the actual removal and 
installation would be great too!  Thanks.



Jeff Laman

1981 C&C34 Harmony

Ludington, MI
Please show your appreciation for this list and the Photo Album site and help 
me pay the associated bills.  Make a contribution at:
https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
Thanks for your help.
Stu

cnc-list@cnc-list.com

[Jeffrey A. Laman via CnC-List]

Nathan,
Nice winches!  Thanks for the input.  A power ratio of 50 would certainly ease 
the effort.  As I mentioned in my other response, it seems a good cleaning, 
greasing, and inspection of wear might be in order first.
Jeff

From: Nathan Post via CnC-List 
Sent: Tuesday, September 12, 2023 1:00 PM
To: Stus-List 
Cc: Nathan Post 
Subject: Stus-List Re: Winch Size for C&C34

Hi Jeff,

I replaced my primaries on my 34 with Anderson ST 50 winches in 2000. They seem 
sized correctly to me - I certainly wouldn't go smaller. They work fine for 
hauling in my 135 Genoa fully loaded up but it is about all a typical crew can 
handle by themselves. If I was to do it again, I would pay the extra for Lewmar 
Ocean winches of equivalent size or maybe even one size up instead.

Nathan

~~~
Nathan Post
S/V Wisper
1981 C&C 34
Lynn, MA (currently in Rockport ME)
Please show your appreciation for this list and the Photo Album site and help 
me pay the associated bills.  Make a contribution at:
https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
Thanks for your help.
Stu

cnc-list@cnc-list.com

[Jeffrey A. Laman via CnC-List]

Thanks Jim for the C&C34 winch size reference point.  I am becoming convinced 
that the Lewmar 42STs on the boat are in the normal range of other similar or 
same boats.  My poor maintenance is likely the issue, which I will remedy as 
soon as I get a Lemwar service kit.

Winch drum has sufficient roughness.  Two wraps and the sheets do not slip.  
Never have had an issue with this.  Biggest problem is to get crew to not put 3 
or 4 wraps on the drum!

I have 1/2" dia sheets that are nicely worn in -- not so new they are slippery 
but not so old they are needing to be replaced.  Winch handles are new Harken 
OneTouch which I really like.  Fast in and out of the winch and the grips run 
free.

Jeff

From: jim aridas via CnC-List 
Sent: Wednesday, September 13, 2023 7:46 AM
To: Stus-List 
Cc: Peter McMinn ; jim aridas 
Subject: Stus-List Re: Winch Size for C&C34

Two points to make.
Winch drum surface does wear out as in gets smooth and looses it's grip on the 
line causing the line to slip.
Second, winch size for racing a 34. I campaigned a 34 for 12 yrs. Put Lewmar 
44s on when I 1st got the boat. Also make sure you have good handles and big 
enough diameter sheets.
Jim
Former C&C 34 1982


Get Outlook for Android<https://aka.ms/ghei36>


From: Peter McMinn via CnC-List 
Sent: Tuesday, September 12, 2023 11:46:05 PM
To: Stus-List 
Cc: Peter McMinn 
Subject: Stus-List Re: Winch Size for C&C34

Over the winter, I rebuilt the Barient 2-sp 28s that were original on my ‘85 
37. Only had to replace the springs. Pawls appeared to have been replaced a few 
years ago but showed minimal wear; the gears and bearings were well greased by 
previous owners and in good shape. I’d say maintenance matters if the winch is 
serving your needs. Definitely worth a rebuild, considering the replacement 
cost.

On Tue, Sep 12, 2023 at 5:13 PM cenelson--- via CnC-List 
mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>> wrote:
You can get a winch service kit from Lewmar/Defender/West Marine with grease, 
pawls, springs, etc for a few bucks.

Clean them up, replace any bad springs/pawls, light oil on the pawls, grease 
(from kit) on spindles/teeth (?), reassemble and you will be likely as good as 
new. There are Lewmar assembly diagrams on-line but if you are careful not to 
lose any parts AND take one winch apart at a time so the other is there for a 
guide, and you should be fine. Its one of those dirty jobs but simple enough to 
do. Once you have done one, the next is much faster plus you don't need any 
special tools.

Charlie Nelson
Water Phantom

On Tuesday, September 12, 2023, 07:20:44 PM EDT, Jeffrey A. Laman via CnC-List 
mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>> wrote:


Mike and others who have provided valuable input,

This information on electric is very useful.  I wasn't intending to purchase 
electric in any case due to cost.

I went to boat this afternoon.  Ashamed to say I did not even know what size 
the existing winches are.  They are Lewmar/England 42ST, likely original to 
boat, therefore 42 years old.  From what I am hearing from everyone, a Lewmar 
42ST should be adequate for a C&C34.  But man, even in 12 knts wind it takes 
the full strength of two crew to get the last 2 feet in.  I was sensing that 
the winch handle was about to break.

After reading more this afternoon, I am sure the winches are way past due for 
servicing.  Lewmar recommends 2 to 3 times a season!  This may be part, if not 
all, of the problem.  I suspect the winches were disassembled and greased about 
10 to 12 years ago. Before that, who knows.

Is a set of 42 year old winches worth disassembling, cleaning, greasing, and 
reassembling?  Will this result in a significant improvement?  What parts of 
the winch typically need to be replaced and can those Lewmar parts be obtained 
for such an old winch?

Thanks again for all the very helpful advice on winch sizes.

Jeff Laman
1981 C&C34 Harmony
Ludington, MI


From: Hoyt, Mike via CnC-List 
mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>>
Sent: Tuesday, September 12, 2023 2:43 PM
To: 'Stus-List' mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>>
Cc: Hoyt, Mike mailto:mike.h...@impgroup.com>>
Subject: Stus-List Electric Winches - Winch Size for C&C34


Persistence came to us with Electric Lewmar 43ST winches for the primaries.  
There were no secondaries.  For cruising ease the primaries had been located 
where secondaries normally would be and the mounting locations for the original 
primaries were faired and painted over.  The second set of manual Lewmar 43ST 
winches were mounted on the cabin top for use as halyard winches.  THIS WAS WAY 
OVERKILL!



ST43 as halyard winches way larger than necessary.  Jib trimmers facing 
backward to trim genoa was awkward to say the least.  So we moved the cabin top 
Lewmar 43ST back to the original primary location and replaced c

Stus-List Re: winter storage

[Jeffrey A. Laman via CnC-List]

Leave it. I assume you are concerned about creep of the rods? If so, any metal 
creep under load occurs in the very early stages. Regardless, the at rest load 
on the rigging is not at a level to cause any measurable creep
Jeff Laman
81 C&C34
Ludington, Mi

Get Outlook for Android

From: Bob Mann via CnC-List 
Sent: Wednesday, October 18, 2023 7:45:04 AM
To: Stus-List 
Cc: Bob Mann 
Subject: Stus-List winter storage

Here in Michigan it's time to winterize our boats until April.  For those who 
store their boat with the mast up, do you leave shroud tension alone or do you 
loosen the shrouds for the winter?

Bob Mann
Mystic
Please show your appreciation for this list and the Photo Album site and help 
me pay the associated bills.  Make a contribution at:
https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
Thanks for your help.
Stu

Stus-List Re: winter storage

[Jeffrey A. Laman via CnC-List]

Aluminum coefficient of thermal expansion is about 13e-6 and SS about 6.5e-6. 
If the mast from keel to head is 50 ft, and temp change is 100 degrees F mast 
contracts about 3/4" and stays, which are shorter but angled, contract about 
5/16". So, effectively, the temperature loosens the stays for you. If that's a 
concern for some reason.
Jeff Laman
81 C&C34

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From: Robert Abbott via CnC-List 
Sent: Wednesday, October 18, 2023 3:52:18 PM
To: Stus-List 
Cc: Hoyt, Mike ; Robert Abbott 

Subject: Stus-List winter storage

The key to keeping mast up during winter is the cradlethe boats with 
inadequate or damaged cradles are at risk.  I have seen several boats at my 
club where the boats have toppled and it was the cradle that failed in every 
instance.

And for loosening the rigging in winterno need if the rig is properly tuned 
at storagebesides, as someone here mentioned, the aluminum mast shrinks 
first in extreme cold.

Rob Abbott
AZURA
C&C 32- #277
halifax, N.S.

On 2023-10-18 11:19 a.m., Hoyt, Mike via CnC-List wrote:

Re mast up.  A friend stored his C&C 33-2 with mast up and it blew over in a 
winter storm.  He now has no mast.



With mast down possibly the reduced windage would have prevented the boat from 
blowing over but certainly would have not resulted in a mast broken in three 
areas.  The boat was on a cradle.



Food for thought



Mike Hoyt

Persistence

Halifax, NS



From: Bob Mann via CnC-List 

Sent: Wednesday, October 18, 2023 10:45 AM
To: Stus-List 
Cc: Bob Mann 
Subject: Stus-List winter storage



Here in Michigan it's time to winterize our boats until April. For those who 
store their boat with the mast up, do you leave shroud tension alone or do you 
loosen the shrouds for the winter? Bob Mann Mystic ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ 
‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍

Here in Michigan it's time to winterize our boats until April.  For those who 
store their boat with the mast up, do you leave shroud tension alone or do you 
loosen the shrouds for the winter?



Bob Mann

Mystic



Please show your appreciation for this list and the Photo Album site and help 
me pay the associated bills.  Make a contribution at:
https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
Thanks for your help.
Stu

Please show your appreciation for this list and the Photo Album site and help 
me pay the associated bills.  Make a contribution at:
https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
Thanks for your help.
Stu

Stus-List Re: Leaving interior Teak natural?

[Jeffrey A. Laman via CnC-List]

Another vote for Old English lemon oil. IMO teak is not intended to be 
urethaned or any of the other. Just sets you up for more maintenance, 
stripping, scraping, etc, which is contrary to using teak in the first place.  
Oil 2x each summer and looks like new. Wipe off excess and no dirt problems.

Jeff Laman
1981 C&C34
Harmony

Get Outlook for Android

Get Outlook for Android


From: Robert Abbott via CnC-List 
Sent: Saturday, March 27, 2021 7:50:53 PM
To: Stus-List 
Cc: Robert Abbott 
Subject: Stus-List Leaving interior Teak natural?

Dean
My 32 came with the C&C advertised 'teak package'...teak everywhere...the 
V-birth, quarterberth, bulkheads, doors, head, dinette table teak veneer (I 
think), etc.

It is now 36 years old and has only ever been oiled. It still looks like new.  
I have tried the 'designer oils' from yacht shops but prefer the stuff I buy at 
the grocery store Old English Lemon Oil

Now it means I oil the teak 2 maybe 3 times a year but isn't that why I own a 
1984 C&C 32.

old english oil lemon - 
Bing

Rob Abbott
AZURA
C&C 32 - #277
Halifax, N.S.


On 2021-03-27 8:19 p.m., Dean McNeill via CnC-List wrote:

Spring chores on the new-to-me C&C 34… every piece of the beautiful teak 
interior is coated in Cetol. It makes it look so DARK! I’m successfully 
removing the Cetol with a heat gun and scraper. After a light sand, I’m 
wondering if I varnish it or leave it uncoated (natural). I’m not a fan of 
oiling as it seems to attract dirt and grime. Obviously I’ll be treating any 
exterior woodwork… but what about the interior, varnish or natural? Or 
something else?



Thanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help with the 
costs involved.  If you want to show your support to the list - use PayPal to 
send contribution --   
https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
  Thanks - Stu

Thanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help with the 
costs involved.  If you want to show your support to the list - use PayPal to 
send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray  Thanks - Stu

Stus-List Re: Now best powerboats

[Jeffrey A. Laman via CnC-List]

Thought this was a C&C sailboat list?

Jeff Laman
1981 C&C34 Harmony
Ludington, MI


From: Edd Schillay via CnC-List 
Sent: Wednesday, March 31, 2021 10:04 AM
To: Stus-List 
Cc: Edd Schillay 
Subject: Stus-List Re: Now best powerboats

Joe,

Thanks. We’ve looked at quite a few boats over the past few months and there 
were several that we didn’t like, whether it’s the style, layout, number of 
levels, engines, etc. I’m not ruling out gas engines, but would prefer diesels 
purely from a maintenance and safety level.

Right now, a Sea Ray 400 Sedan with Caterpillar 3126’s has really caught my 
eye. Also interested in the Carver 36 Mariner, the Regal Commodore 4080 and the 
Meridian 341 (though I have yet to actually get on board one — may be too 
small.)

Primarily, we are looking for a 16-knot+ cruiser that we could use for a day 
trip to a gulf-coast island or for a week or two cruising to the Keys or even 
the Bahamas.

I’m well aware that, especially as a life-long C&C owner, that there will be 
compromises and disappointments, but I’m looking to transition into a 
less-active form of boating where the only winch on board is electric and it 
drops the anchor.

Now that we are here in Florida for good, we can’t wait to explore strange new 
worlds, seek out new life and new civilizations…. And, our Prime Directive will 
not change — Wherever We Go, We Go Boldly — I just want to be at a speed that I 
won’t need to take extra time off.

All the best,

Edd


Edd M. Schillay
Captain of the Starship Enterprise
C&C 37+ | Sail No: NCC-1701-B
Venice Yacht Club | Venice Island, FL










On Mar 31, 2021, at 9:23 AM, Della Barba, Joe via CnC-List 
mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>> wrote:

I would agree with that. The Carver/Regal/Sea Ray lineup probably would not 
meet expectations if you had a C&C for very long.
I worked on all of them and delivered some back in the day and unless they got 
a LOT better than they used to be, I can't see a C&Cer being happy with them.
Also do not be fooled by "diesel". Sailors tend to extrapolate "lasts forever" 
and "sips fuel" to diesel powerboats and neither one of those things 
necessarily apply. Many boosted high output diesels have short lifespans and 
"economical" is in comparison to a pair of big block V8s. I worked on a SeaRay 
55 and I had to run her hard to do some autopilot calibrations. I think I was 
going through 100 gallons an hour! Also the layout and décor seemed ideal for 
bachelor parties - cruising not so much.
Heck - even the slow Grand Banks trawlers use a LOT of fuel compared to any 
sailboat without going much faster.

Joe
Coquina

-Original Message-
From: Dennis C. via CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com]
Sent: Monday, March 29, 2021 10:39 PM
To: Stus-List mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>>
Cc: Dennis C. mailto:capt...@gmail.com>>
Subject: [EXTERNAL] Stus-List Re: 40 or 41?

Look at the Sabre Salons.

Dennis C.

On Mar 29, 2021, at 8:05 PM, Edd Schillay via CnC-List 
mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>> wrote:

Danny,

Possibly, but it would have to be a fast trawler. Most likely looking for a 
sedan bridge with diesels.

All the best,

Edd


Thanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help with the 
costs involved.  If you want to show your support to the list - use PayPal to 
send contribution --   
https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
  Thanks - Stu
Thanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help with the 
costs involved.  If you want to show your support to the list - use PayPal to 
send contribution --   
https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
  Thanks - Stu

Thanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help with the 
costs involved.  If you want to show your support to the list - use PayPal to 
send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray  Thanks - Stu

Stus-List Re: Now best powerboats

[Jeffrey A. Laman via CnC-List]

Of course! But maybe it can be agreed that side conversations that might not be 
of broad interest to the community be conducted on the side. All I am saying.

Get Outlook for Android<https://aka.ms/AAb9ysg>


From: Danny Haughey via CnC-List 
Sent: Wednesday, March 31, 2021 11:27:25 AM
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com 
Cc: Danny Haughey 
Subject: Stus-List Re: Now best powerboats

It's a community list of C&C enthusiasts that sometime have side conversations. 
 I hope Edd stays a part of the community even after he moves to a different 
type of vessel.

Edd, I may be moving to your area, in a few years, if all goes well!

-- Original Message ------
From: "Jeffrey A. Laman via CnC-List" 
To: Stus-List 
Cc: "Jeffrey A. Laman" 
Subject: Stus-List Re: Now best powerboats
Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2021 14:08:26 +


Thought this was a C&C sailboat list?

Jeff Laman
1981 C&C34 Harmony
Ludington, MI



From: Edd Schillay via CnC-List 
Sent: Wednesday, March 31, 2021 10:04 AM
To: Stus-List 
Cc: Edd Schillay 
Subject: Stus-List Re: Now best powerboats

Joe,

Thanks. We’ve looked at quite a few boats over the past few months and there 
were several that we didn’t like, whether it’s the style, layout, number of 
levels, engines, etc. I’m not ruling out gas engines, but would prefer diesels 
purely from a maintenance and safety level.

Right now, a Sea Ray 400 Sedan with Caterpillar 3126’s has really caught my 
eye. Also interested in the Carver 36 Mariner, the Regal Commodore 4080 and the 
Meridian 341 (though I have yet to actually get on board one — may be too 
small.)

Primarily, we are looking for a 16-knot+ cruiser that we could use for a day 
trip to a gulf-coast island or for a week or two cruising to the Keys or even 
the Bahamas.

I’m well aware that, especially as a life-long C&C owner, that there will be 
compromises and disappointments, but I’m looking to transition into a 
less-active form of boating where the only winch on board is electric and it 
drops the anchor.

Now that we are here in Florida for good, we can’t wait to explore strange new 
worlds, seek out new life and new civilizations…. And, our Prime Directive will 
not change — Wherever We Go, We Go Boldly — I just want to be at a speed that I 
won’t need to take extra time off.

All the best,

Edd


Edd M. Schillay
Captain of the Starship Enterprise
C&C 37+ | Sail No: NCC-1701-B
Venice Yacht Club | Venice Island, FL











On Mar 31, 2021, at 9:23 AM, Della Barba, Joe via CnC-List 
mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>> wrote:

I would agree with that. The Carver/Regal/Sea Ray lineup probably would not 
meet expectations if you had a C&C for very long.
I worked on all of them and delivered some back in the day and unless they got 
a LOT better than they used to be, I can't see a C&Cer being happy with them.
Also do not be fooled by "diesel". Sailors tend to extrapolate "lasts forever" 
and "sips fuel" to diesel powerboats and neither one of those things 
necessarily apply. Many boosted high output diesels have short lifespans and 
"economical" is in comparison to a pair of big block V8s. I worked on a SeaRay 
55 and I had to run her hard to do some autopilot calibrations. I think I was 
going through 100 gallons an hour! Also the layout and décor seemed ideal for 
bachelor parties - cruising not so much.
Heck - even the slow Grand Banks trawlers use a LOT of fuel compared to any 
sailboat without going much faster.

Joe
Coquina

-Original Message-
From: Dennis C. via CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com]
Sent: Monday, March 29, 2021 10:39 PM
To: Stus-List mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>>
Cc: Dennis C. mailto:capt...@gmail.com>>
Subject: [EXTERNAL] Stus-List Re: 40 or 41?

Look at the Sabre Salons.

Dennis C.

On Mar 29, 2021, at 8:05 PM, Edd Schillay via CnC-List 
mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>> wrote:

Danny,

Possibly, but it would have to be a fast trawler. Most likely looking for a 
sedan bridge with diesels.

All the best,

Edd


Thanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help with the 
costs involved.  If you want to show your support to the list - use PayPal to 
send contribution --   
https://www.paypal.me/stumurray<https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.paypal.me%2Fstumurray&data=04%7C01%7C%7Cda939402fb954c8ca80a08d8f459d41f%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435%7C1%7C0%7C637528013929715561%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=jWuUWa1QEztE1NjSKiC9AHnVAMqSzQwWVwXzAbzYxL0%3D&reserved=0>
  Thanks - Stu
Thanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help with the 
costs involved.  If you want to show your support to the list - use PayPal to 
send contributio

Stus-List Re: Navtec Hydraulic backstay adjuster, soon to be free

[Jeffrey A. Laman via CnC-List]

Hi all -- I have been following this integral hydraulic backstay adjuster 
discussion with interest as my NavTec - 10 just gave up and leaked all its 
fluid about a month ago.  My adjuster is a "Series 6" according to NavTec, 
manufactured in the early 80s.  NavTec does not make the seal kit anymore and 
after speaking with 3 reputable marinas, I determined it was time to replace 
the adjuster.

As I understand from the previous owner and another captain familiar with my 
boat's history (this is my 4th summer owning the boat and 11th sailing on the 
boat), the NavTec - 10 seals were replaced by a local tractor repair shop, 
maybe 10 years ago.  The seals have been slow leaking for about 5 years of the 
10.  So, my experience with the tractor repair approach is not good.  NavTec 
(biased), SailTec (not biased) and both reputable marinas (a little biased, but 
not much) told me that repairing at a local tractor repair is a big mistake -- 
they do not know how to do it correctly even if they claim they do.  Torresen's 
in Muskegon had the adjuster for about a week and would have repaired for $400 
by trained technicians -- not a bad price for this level of repair.  I only 
offer this story as a caution to others -- be very careful what you do and who 
you hire for rebuilding.   If my adjuster had failed while in use, it would 
have been a pure disaster and I am very glad it happened on the hard this 
spring.  My new SailTec- 10 arrived this morning and I am very happy to have a 
new adjuster, in spite of blowing most of my 2021 boat budget before the season 
even starts.

So, a question -- do any of the listers know where one can still purchase the 
seal kit for a series 6 Navtec - 10?

Jeff Laman
1981 C&C34 "Harmony"
Ludington, MI




From: Gary Newton via CnC-List 
Sent: Monday, April 19, 2021 8:35 AM
To: Stus-List 
Cc: Gary Newton 
Subject: Stus-List Re: Navtec Hydraulic backstay adjuster, soon to be free

Has anyone rebuilt a Sailtec hydraulic backstay adjuster? I have one that was 
on my 1987 35 mkIII. It is a -10 Standard.

Sent from my iPad

On Apr 17, 2021, at 5:26 PM, Rick Brass via CnC-List  
wrote:



As Charlie points out, just about any hydraulics shop (and most farm implement, 
forklift, or construction machinery dealers) can rebuild a Navtec backstay 
adjuster. And based on 22 years in the forklift business, $260 would be at the 
high end of what I would estimate for the cost, depending on your cylinder. 
After all, it is just a small hydraulic cylinder, and maybe some make on demand 
hoses and a relatively low pressure pump.



Hydraulics shop would be the best starting point because the job would be too 
small for most dealers, and it would take time.



Rick Brass

Washington, NC







From: cenelson via CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com]
Sent: Thursday, April 15, 2021 6:06 PM
To: Stus-List 
Cc: cenelson 
Subject: Stus-List Re: Navtec Hydraulic backstay adjuster, soon to be free



I had mine rebuilt at a local hydraulic shop (lots of farmer implements use 
hydraulics) about 8 yrs ago for $260.



Still no leaks—!



Charlie Nelson



Sent from the all new AOL app for 
iOS

On Thursday, April 15, 2021, 5:54 PM, Riley Anderson via CnC-List 
mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>> wrote:

Hello all,



I'm getting rid of my Navtec backstay adjuster, it needs a rebuild ($620 from 
Navtec). I put it on eBay for cheap, but I'm only going to leave the listing up 
for a month. If it doesn't sell in that time, consider it free to any lister 
who wants it. My guess is shipping should be about $30-40. The model number is 
IA7-10, pulled it from my 1976 38-ii. Navtec says these are from 1989-1999.



Here is the link to the listing if you just can't 
wait.
 Photos are on the listing.



--

Fair winds and following seas,



Charlotte Freeland & Riley Anderson

SV Freight Train

Middletown, CT USA

Thanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help with the 
costs involved.  If you want to show your support to the list - use PayPal to 
send contribution --  https://www.paypal.me/stumurray 

Stus-List Re: Navtec Hydraulic backstay adjuster, soon to be free

[Jeffrey A. Laman via CnC-List]

Yes. This hydraulic backstay episode has caused me to think in detail about the 
backstay reliability and options if failure occurs while under sail. I was also 
able to see what happens when the hydraulic backstay fully extends -- not a 
pretty sight.  Even on the hard I was lucky nothing got damaged, other than an 
oil-stained winter canvas.  I now have NavTec backstay turnbuckle hardware sold 
to me used by Torresen's that I will use during winter storage of the SailTec.  
And, due to the sudden failure, I have another setup that can serve in 
emergency, if I get a chance to rig it, while sailing.

Jeff L.


From: Riley Anderson 
Sent: Monday, April 19, 2021 10:38 AM
To: Stus-List 
Cc: Jeffrey A. Laman 
Subject: Re: Stus-List Re: Navtec Hydraulic backstay adjuster, soon to be free

Thanks for your comment, Jeff. I agree that adjuster failure at sea would be 
suboptimal (putting it lightly). This is partly why I've opted to get rid of 
mine entirely. Nothing really beats the reliability of a turnbuckle. My boat 
doesn't race so a static backstay with no moving parts, seals, UV susceptible 
components seems like the safest way to go.

On Mon, Apr 19, 2021 at 10:31 AM Jeffrey A. Laman via CnC-List 
mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>> wrote:
Hi all -- I have been following this integral hydraulic backstay adjuster 
discussion with interest as my NavTec - 10 just gave up and leaked all its 
fluid about a month ago.  My adjuster is a "Series 6" according to NavTec, 
manufactured in the early 80s.  NavTec does not make the seal kit anymore and 
after speaking with 3 reputable marinas, I determined it was time to replace 
the adjuster.

As I understand from the previous owner and another captain familiar with my 
boat's history (this is my 4th summer owning the boat and 11th sailing on the 
boat), the NavTec - 10 seals were replaced by a local tractor repair shop, 
maybe 10 years ago.  The seals have been slow leaking for about 5 years of the 
10.  So, my experience with the tractor repair approach is not good.  NavTec 
(biased), SailTec (not biased) and both reputable marinas (a little biased, but 
not much) told me that repairing at a local tractor repair is a big mistake -- 
they do not know how to do it correctly even if they claim they do.  Torresen's 
in Muskegon had the adjuster for about a week and would have repaired for $400 
by trained technicians -- not a bad price for this level of repair.  I only 
offer this story as a caution to others -- be very careful what you do and who 
you hire for rebuilding.   If my adjuster had failed while in use, it would 
have been a pure disaster and I am very glad it happened on the hard this 
spring.  My new SailTec- 10 arrived this morning and I am very happy to have a 
new adjuster, in spite of blowing most of my 2021 boat budget before the season 
even starts.

So, a question -- do any of the listers know where one can still purchase the 
seal kit for a series 6 Navtec - 10?

Jeff Laman
1981 C&C34 "Harmony"
Ludington, MI




From: Gary Newton via CnC-List 
mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>>
Sent: Monday, April 19, 2021 8:35 AM
To: Stus-List mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>>
Cc: Gary Newton mailto:ghnewt...@gmail.com>>
Subject: Stus-List Re: Navtec Hydraulic backstay adjuster, soon to be free

Has anyone rebuilt a Sailtec hydraulic backstay adjuster? I have one that was 
on my 1987 35 mkIII. It is a -10 Standard.

Sent from my iPad

On Apr 17, 2021, at 5:26 PM, Rick Brass via CnC-List 
mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>> wrote:



As Charlie points out, just about any hydraulics shop (and most farm implement, 
forklift, or construction machinery dealers) can rebuild a Navtec backstay 
adjuster. And based on 22 years in the forklift business, $260 would be at the 
high end of what I would estimate for the cost, depending on your cylinder. 
After all, it is just a small hydraulic cylinder, and maybe some make on demand 
hoses and a relatively low pressure pump.



Hydraulics shop would be the best starting point because the job would be too 
small for most dealers, and it would take time.



Rick Brass

Washington, NC







From: cenelson via CnC-List 
[mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com<mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>]
Sent: Thursday, April 15, 2021 6:06 PM
To: Stus-List mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>>
Cc: cenelson mailto:cenel...@aol.com>>
Subject: Stus-List Re: Navtec Hydraulic backstay adjuster, soon to be free



I had mine rebuilt at a local hydraulic shop (lots of farmer implements use 
hydraulics) about 8 yrs ago for $260.



Still no leaks—!



Charlie Nelson



Sent from the all new AOL app for 
iOS<https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fapps.apple.com%2Fus%2Fapp%2Faol-news-email-weather-video%2Fid646100661&data=04%7C01%7C%7Cb7

Stus-List Re: Hydraulic backstay adjuster pressure?

[Jeffrey A. Laman via CnC-List]

Hi All.  Also wanted to comment on the pressure question.  As I noted in my 
post about the NavTec - 10 failure, I have been examining all the issues that I 
more or less ignored or was happily ignorant of till now.  One item was to 
determine the yield and breaking load on my backstay and correlating backstay 
shortening to load.  If you do a little geometry and have knowledge of 
stress/force/strain/elongation, it is a fairly simple determination (I am a 
structural engineer).  Others have provided photos of simple shortening measure 
devices, which I now intend to make and install.  If others have photos, please 
share!  But, one comment on pressure and force -- the pressure on the hydraulic 
backstay is directly related to force.  So, if I trouble myself to read it, I 
will pay much more attention to the pressure on the gauge right in front of my 
face.  At the moment, I don't recall what I read -- either NavTec or SailTec, 
or maybe both, 1000 psi = 1000 lbs force.  The NavTec - 10 has a relief valve 
set to 4000 lbs.  SailTec - 10 is 4750 lbs.  Others with more knowledge may 
have more definitive information.  Long story but I received the wrong SailTec 
- 10 the first time -- a custom unit for J105s that has a pressure relief at 
3000 lbs.

Excellent discussion, btw everybody!

Jeff L.


From: Edd Schillay via CnC-List 
Sent: Sunday, April 18, 2021 3:04 PM
To: Stus-List 
Cc: Edd Schillay 
Subject: Stus-List Re: Hydraulic backstay adjuster pressure?

Bruce,

You may find this article interesting: 
https://www.sailingworld.com/getting-most-from-your-backstay/

All the best,

Edd


Edd M. Schillay
Captain of the Starship Enterprise
C&C 37+ | Sail No: NCC-1701-B
Venice Yacht Club | Venice Island, FL










On Apr 18, 2021, at 2:05 PM, Bruce Whitmore via CnC-List 
mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>> wrote:

Hello all

 With all of the discussions about hydraulic backstay adjusters, and mine being 
fixed (finally), where do most of you keep and use the pressure?  At the dock 
vs. sailing and under what conditions?

Thanks!

Bruce Whitmore
1994 C&C 37/40+
Thanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help with the 
costs involved.  If you want to show your support to the list - use PayPal to 
send contribution --   
https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
  Thanks - Stu

Thanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help with the 
costs involved.  If you want to show your support to the list - use PayPal to 
send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray  Thanks - Stu

Stus-List Re: Hydraulic backstay adjuster pressure?

[Jeffrey A. Laman via CnC-List]

Yes, there you go -- pressure to gauge.
Thanks for making clear to all that psi and kpsi ( = 1000 psi) are NOT force, 
but internal oil pressure.
This link is not for the series 6, however.  My data sheet, which is on board 
the boat right now, I believe indicated 1000 psi = 1000 lbs.  If I remember, 
i'll check it when I go to the boat.  It's possible not all NavTec - 10s are 
the same -- depending on series -- maybe.

Jeff L.
1981 C&C34 "Harmony"
Ludington, MI




From: Dennis C. via CnC-List 
Sent: Monday, April 19, 2021 12:39 PM
To: Stus-List 
Cc: Dennis C. 
Subject: Stus-List Re: Hydraulic backstay adjuster pressure?

Um, sorta.  Yes, it is related but not 1:1.  The gauge shows psi in the 
cylinder.  That is NOT pounds tension or pull on the backstay.  You need to 
take into account the pressure area of the piston.  The pressure area of the 
piston on a Navtec 10 series is 1.160 square inches.  (Pressure area is the 
area of the piston minus the area of the 0.5 inch diameter rod).

Go here:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1-jO5DG6XmclSUhB3S5MLQhFG7drS2Ctf/view?usp=sharing<https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fdrive.google.com%2Ffile%2Fd%2F1-jO5DG6XmclSUhB3S5MLQhFG7drS2Ctf%2Fview%3Fusp%3Dsharing&data=04%7C01%7C%7C60aa584fba6d47e0016908d90351d19f%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435%7C1%7C0%7C637544472206078660%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=tDykzdahHV0h3I%2BJe6%2BP7N%2FCRV%2B8E1NEKLShM5vXyO8%3D&reserved=0>

Note that for a NavTec 10 adjuster, 1000 psi on the gauge is 550 kgf or about 
1200 pounds pull.  A decent rule of thumb would be 1.2 times gauge psi = pounds 
pull for a NavTec 10.

I still find a batten with colored tape to be easier.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/15VQF_A2X3ZNBW5ZPueAaJ9mw23X8YsQH/view?usp=sharing<https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fdrive.google.com%2Ffile%2Fd%2F15VQF_A2X3ZNBW5ZPueAaJ9mw23X8YsQH%2Fview%3Fusp%3Dsharing&data=04%7C01%7C%7C60aa584fba6d47e0016908d90351d19f%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435%7C1%7C0%7C637544472206078660%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=XuYZLtq35zJf2uQR3htAUIOWiri04uesUW8EUnaZn4A%3D&reserved=0>

  --
Dennis C.
Touche' 35-1 #83
Mandeville, LA

On Mon, Apr 19, 2021 at 10:07 AM Jeffrey A. Laman via CnC-List 
mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>> wrote:
 But, one comment on pressure and force -- the pressure on the hydraulic 
backstay is directly related to force.  So, if I trouble myself to read it, I 
will pay much more attention to the pressure on the gauge right in front of my 
face.  At the moment, I don't recall what I read -- either NavTec or SailTec, 
or maybe both, 1000 psi = 1000 lbs force.

Jeff L.





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costs involved.  If you want to show your support to the list - use PayPal to 
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Stus-List Re: Hydraulic backstay adjuster pressure?

[Jeffrey A. Laman via CnC-List]

1981 C&C34.  Sorry, got lazy on the signature.
I believe the rods are 7/32 dia
I understand that the rods were made by NavTec, referred to as NAV R505
This is a cold drawn rod from Nitronic 50 (22-13-5)
Fu = 200,000 psi
7/32" dia = 0.0375 in^2
Breaking force = Fu x A =  7,500 lbs

Jeff Laman
1981 C&C34 "Harmony"
Ludington, MI


From: Bill Coleman via CnC-List 
Sent: Monday, April 19, 2021 12:09 PM
To: 'Stus-List' 
Cc: Bill Coleman 
Subject: Stus-List Re: Hydraulic backstay adjuster pressure?


I am not sure the size boat we are talking about, but I think I would have been 
happy to have a relief valve set for 3K.  Seems anything over that and you 
would be pulling the boat away from the front of your keel. I do like SailTec, 
and that unit is a great piece.





Bill Coleman

Entrada, Erie, PA





From: Jeffrey A. Laman via CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com]
Sent: Monday, April 19, 2021 11:07 AM
To: Stus-List
Cc: Jeffrey A. Laman
Subject: Stus-List Re: Hydraulic backstay adjuster pressure?



Hi All.  Also wanted to comment on the pressure question.  As I noted in my 
post about the NavTec - 10 failure, I have been examining all the issues that I 
more or less ignored or was happily ignorant of till now.  One item was to 
determine the yield and breaking load on my backstay and correlating backstay 
shortening to load.  If you do a little geometry and have knowledge of 
stress/force/strain/elongation, it is a fairly simple determination (I am a 
structural engineer).  Others have provided photos of simple shortening measure 
devices, which I now intend to make and install.  If others have photos, please 
share!  But, one comment on pressure and force -- the pressure on the hydraulic 
backstay is directly related to force.  So, if I trouble myself to read it, I 
will pay much more attention to the pressure on the gauge right in front of my 
face.  At the moment, I don't recall what I read -- either NavTec or SailTec, 
or maybe both, 1000 psi = 1000 lbs force.  The NavTec - 10 has a relief valve 
set to 4000 lbs.  SailTec - 10 is 4750 lbs.  Others with more knowledge may 
have more definitive information.  Long story but I received the wrong SailTec 
- 10 the first time -- a custom unit for J105s that has a pressure relief at 
3000 lbs.



Excellent discussion, btw everybody!



Jeff L.





From: Edd Schillay via CnC-List 
Sent: Sunday, April 18, 2021 3:04 PM
To: Stus-List 
Cc: Edd Schillay 
Subject: Stus-List Re: Hydraulic backstay adjuster pressure?



Bruce,



You may find this article interesting: 
https://www.sailingworld.com/getting-most-from-your-backstay/<https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.sailingworld.com%2Fgetting-most-from-your-backstay%2F&data=04%7C01%7C%7Ca538f089ff564ba2ae6b08d9034daa01%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435%7C1%7C0%7C637544454357973714%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=EgTppT2C4rrGrgPGEUI2%2BZFqgP62yKmf4UV4oTCvFVg%3D&reserved=0>

All the best,



Edd





Edd M. Schillay

Captain of the Starship Enterprise

C&C 37+ | Sail No: NCC-1701-B

Venice Yacht Club | Venice Island, FL




















On Apr 18, 2021, at 2:05 PM, Bruce Whitmore via CnC-List 
mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>> wrote:



Hello all



 With all of the discussions about hydraulic backstay adjusters, and mine being 
fixed (finally), where do most of you keep and use the pressure?  At the dock 
vs. sailing and under what conditions?



Thanks!



Bruce Whitmore

1994 C&C 37/40+

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  Thanks - Stu


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Stus-List Re: Navtec Hydraulic backstay adjuster, soon to be free

[Jeffrey A. Laman via CnC-List]

In my case, the boat was on the hard all winter.  I checked on it in mid-March 
and saw more than the normal leaked oil at the base.  The backstay was not as 
snug as I would have liked so I gave the adjuster a few pulls, backstay 
tightened, and I left.  Two weeks later, oil all over the cockpit and the 
backstay was wildly flopping around with about a 4 or 5 ft sag -- no way it 
would have supported the mast under load.  Mast probably would not come down, 
but the mast would have had to deflect many inches at the top before 
re-engaging the backstay -- not good.  I quickly removed the backstay adjuster, 
got a couple of large turnbuckles on either end of where the adjuster was, and 
ran a line through 3 or 4 times, pulling the backstay tight again.  Later got 
the NavTec turnbuckle from Torresen and that's how it sits for now.  I'll put 
the new SailTec adjuster on in a few days when it warms up and I finish what 
needs to be done before going in the water.

Jeff Laman
1981 C&C34 "Harmony"
Ludington, Mi


From: Dennis C. via CnC-List 
Sent: Tuesday, April 20, 2021 10:02 AM
To: Stus-List 
Cc: Dennis C. 
Subject: Stus-List Re: Navtec Hydraulic backstay adjuster, soon to be free

If you're talking about a traditional cylinder/ram style hydraulic adjuster, a 
complete leak of all fluid should not result in the loss of the rig.  The rod 
and piston will simply extend to the maximum and stop.  The piston will be at 
the top of its travel against the plug in the top of the cylinder.  The 
backstay will be floppy but should still hold the mast up.

Been there, done that.  Happened to Touche' during an offshore race at night.  
We rigged a line from the bottom of the backstay through a snatch block on the 
transom tang to a winch to give us some control and peace of mind but it wasn't 
entirely necessary.  We were going downwind in mid 20's at the time.

The most significant negative was Paul  Eugenio, who was steering, got 
hydraulic oil all over his shirt.  We made him leave it in the cockpit when we 
finally docked.  :)

  --
Dennis C.
Touche' 35-1 #83
Mandeville, LA

On Tue, Apr 20, 2021 at 8:43 AM Bruce Whitmore via CnC-List 
mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>> wrote:
Sorry,  but I seem to be missing something.  My split hydraulic backstays have 
leaked in the past, to I initially just set the backstay tension using the 
turnbuckle to a light air setting at the dock and put it on my list for future 
repairs.  Now they're fixed ( and yes, more story on that to come).  So what 
are you folks saying when you talk about a failure at sea being a bad outcome?  
Sure, I understand the loss of fluid, but not something that would result in 
loss of the rig.

Would you please explain?

Thanks!

Bruce Whitmore
1994 C&C 37/40+
"Astralis"
Madeira Beach, FL
(847) 404-5092


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costs involved.  If you want to show your support to the list - use PayPal to 
send contribution --   
https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
  Thanks - Stu


Thanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help with the 
costs involved.  If you want to show your support to the list - use PayPal to 
send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray  Thanks - Stu

Stus-List Re: Navtec Hydraulic backstay adjuster, soon to be free

[Jeffrey A. Laman via CnC-List]

I have never taken a hydraulic backstay adjuster apart so have no firsthand 
knowledge of whether an adjuster is similar to a tractor hydraulic system or 
not.  Surely the principle is the same.  All I can go by is what I am told by 
marina repair technicians that I trust.  The guys at Toressen Marine, who I and 
many others have a high level of trust in, told me that an adjuster should not 
be repaired by an ordinary hydraulics repair shop.  They are not the same.  
They explained that, during training of technicians, after about the 6th 
rebuild, they trainees get it right.  They had my adjuster for a week and could 
not get the proper seal kit from NavTec anymore, so gave it back.  A tractor 
guy would have put off the shelf seals in that weren't designed for the unit 
and you get what you get.

So, FWIW, as I commented before, be careful where you save money.  This is an 
important and expensive piece of hardware.

Jeff Laman
1981 C&C34 "Harmony"
Ludington, Mi


From: Della Barba, Joe via CnC-List 
Sent: Tuesday, April 20, 2021 10:18 AM
To: Stus-List 
Cc: Della Barba, Joe 
Subject: Stus-List Re: Navtec Hydraulic backstay adjuster, soon to be free


Back in the day the local hydraulic shop worked on these and autopilot rams for 
us at “farmer and bulldozer driver” prices, not boat prices. They are not all 
that different than anyone else’s hydraulics.





Joe Della Barba

Coquina


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costs involved.  If you want to show your support to the list - use PayPal to 
send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray  Thanks - Stu

Stus-List Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: Navtec Hydraulic backstay adjuster, soon to be free

[Jeffrey A. Laman via CnC-List]

Yes, there are mechanical backstay adjusters available, and I did consider.  
But, I race and need to make adjustments that take a few seconds, not several 
minutes.  Mechanical adjusters that I looked at are basically all thread with 
an integral wrench.

Jeff L.


From: Della Barba, Joe via CnC-List 
Sent: Tuesday, April 20, 2021 10:21 AM
To: Stus-List 
Cc: Della Barba, Joe 
Subject: Stus-List Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: Navtec Hydraulic backstay adjuster, soon 
to be free


Pro Tip: If you get that much slack, you can always add the longest turnbuckle 
you can find to the backstay and have it normally at full length to give you a 
lot of slack to take up. I really like my mechanical adjuster, it seems utterly 
bulletproof. I have no idea if they are still made.



Joe





From: Jeffrey A. Laman via CnC-List 
Sent: Tuesday, April 20, 2021 10:17 AM
To: Stus-List 
Cc: Jeffrey A. Laman 
Subject: [EXTERNAL] Stus-List Re: Navtec Hydraulic backstay adjuster, soon to 
be free



In my case, the boat was on the hard all winter.  I checked on it in mid-March 
and saw more than the normal leaked oil at the base.  The backstay was not as 
snug as I would have liked so I gave the adjuster a few pulls, backstay 
tightened, and I left.  Two weeks later, oil all over the cockpit and the 
backstay was wildly flopping around with about a 4 or 5 ft sag -- no way it 
would have supported the mast under load.  Mast probably would not come down, 
but the mast would have had to deflect many inches at the top before 
re-engaging the backstay -- not good.  I quickly removed the backstay adjuster, 
got a couple of large turnbuckles on either end of where the adjuster was, and 
ran a line through 3 or 4 times, pulling the backstay tight again.  Later got 
the NavTec turnbuckle from Torresen and that's how it sits for now.  I'll put 
the new SailTec adjuster on in a few days when it warms up and I finish what 
needs to be done before going in the water.



Jeff Laman

1981 C&C34 "Harmony"

Ludington, Mi
Thanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help with the 
costs involved.  If you want to show your support to the list - use PayPal to 
send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray  Thanks - Stu

Stus-List Re: Removing lettering

[Jeffrey A. Laman via CnC-List]

Neil,
Get the 3M wheel for sure.  It works great.  I have used this many times on 
boats and cars.  You don't need to get a solvent as there should not be any 
residual adhesive.  It all comes off.  I replaced the "HARMONY" on my transom 
this spring due to fading.  Took 10 minutes to remove the old decal.  I used a 
few squirts of "Awesome" cleaner from the dollar store, then put the new decal 
on.  No mess.  Just be careful to use a variable speed drill, keep the rpms way 
down, and don't stay in the same spot too long or you'll put a brown burn mark 
in the gel coat.  Did that once.
Jeff Laman
1981 C&C34
"Harmony"


From: Neil Andersen via CnC-List 
Sent: Wednesday, April 21, 2021 3:48 PM
To: Stus-List 
Cc: Neil Andersen 
Subject: Stus-List Re: Removing lettering

What solvent should I use to remove the residual adhesive??

Neil
1982 C&C 32, FoxFire
Rock Hall, MD 21661


From: Dean McNeill via CnC-List 
Sent: Wednesday, April 21, 2021 3:22 PM
To: Stus-List
Cc: Dean McNeill
Subject: Stus-List Re: Removing lettering

Adhesive lettering is WAY easier than old painted lettering!

A heat gun and a sharp scraper are your friends. The heat gun will loosen the 
adhesive on the vinyl and then you can get a scraper or razor edged scraper in 
underneath to peel it off.

Dean
C&C 34
Halifax, NS
Thanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help with the 
costs involved.  If you want to show your support to the list - use PayPal to 
send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray  Thanks - Stu

Stus-List Re: 4 pointed star vector file?

[Jeffrey A. Laman via CnC-List]

Hi Dave,
I just put new stars and diamonds on this spring -- ordered from New Holland:  
http://hollandmarine.com/
Click on "C&C Parts" and scroll down.  The set is a little pricey, but nice to 
just peel and stick.  I did not use the outline of the stars.  Before ordering 
I sent them a sample of my shear stripe to get a good match.  It's perfect in 
dark blue.
Jeff Laman
1981 C&C34
Harmony
Ludington, MI


From: Dave S via CnC-List 
Sent: Sunday, May 23, 2021 8:28 PM
To: C&c Stus List 
Cc: Dave S 
Subject: Stus-List 4 pointed star vector file?

‘Evening all.

Does anyone happen to have a vector file of the old logo’s 4 pointed star?   
Getting new graphics and I thin this might be a cool addition.

Many thanks.

Dave 33-2 Windstar.
Sent from my iPhone
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  Thanks - Stu
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costs involved.  If you want to show your support to the list - use PayPal to 
send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray  Thanks - Stu

Stus-List Re: Leaking rudder shaft

[Jeffrey A. Laman via CnC-List]

John and Maryann,
I have an 81 cnc34 and have never noticed water coming in at the rudder shaft 
but now i will look more closely. This spring before launch i removed the nut 
and washer to inspect due to some movement and "groaning" in heavier weather. I 
put a bit of waterproof grease on washer and put back together. A little grease 
might resolve your leak issue. Man does the steering glide like silk now! No 
groans either.

Jeff Laman
81 C&C34 Harmony
Ludington MI

Get Outlook for Android


From: John and Maryann Read via CnC-List 
Sent: Sunday, May 30, 2021 3:35:36 PM
To: 'Stus-List' 
Cc: John and Maryann Read 
Subject: Stus-List Re: Leaking rudder shaft


Rain water coming down – should have been more explicit.  No issue of sea water 
coming up

John



From: Joe Della Barba via CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com]
Sent: Sunday, May 30, 2021 3:27 PM
To: 'Stus-List'
Cc: j...@dellabarba.com
Subject: Stus-List Re: Leaking rudder shaft



Do you mean sea water coming up or rainwater coming down???





Joe Della Barba

Coquina C&C 35 MK I

Kent Island MD USA







From: John and Maryann Read via CnC-List 
Sent: Sunday, May 30, 2021 3:01 PM
To: 'Stus-List' 
Cc: John and Maryann Read 
Subject: Stus-List Leaking rudder shaft



Any thoughts on how to stop the leak where the rudder shaft comes through the 
cockpit floor on a 34?  The interface of delrin washers under the nut leak if 
heavy rain.  Am thinking of some sort of cover over the nut.  Leak drips onto 
quadrant under floor then into bilge.



TIA



John and Maryann

Legacy III

1982 C&C 34

Noank, CT


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costs involved.  If you want to show your support to the list - use PayPal to 
send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray  Thanks - Stu

Stus-List Re: Leaking rudder shaft

[Jeffrey A. Laman via CnC-List]

My 81 CnC34 has no seals or any evidence that there was or could be.  The 
water-tightness depends on the Delrin or nylon washer being a flush fit to the 
SS surface of the fitting bolted to the cockpit floor and the nut being snugged 
down.  I wonder if there isn't some defect or other issue with the area around 
the rudder post or maybe the water is coming in at the stern somewhere, running 
down the inside, hitting the rudder post and then on down? I can't imagine much 
detectable water getting in at the nut if the washer is flush.

Jeff L.
81 C&C34 Harmony
Ludington, MI


From: dwight veinot via CnC-List 
Sent: Sunday, May 30, 2021 4:52 PM
To: Stus-List 
Cc: dwight veinot 
Subject: Stus-List Re: Leaking rudder shaft

You need to replace the seals or do as you are and cover. It’s not too hard to 
fix above deck seals.

On Sun, May 30, 2021 at 4:01 PM John and Maryann Read via CnC-List 
mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>> wrote:

Any thoughts on how to stop the leak where the rudder shaft comes through the 
cockpit floor on a 34?  The interface of delrin washers under the nut leak if 
heavy rain.  Am thinking of some sort of cover over the nut.  Leak drips onto 
quadrant under floor then into bilge.



TIA



John and Maryann

Legacy III

1982 C&C 34

Noank, CT



Thanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help with the 
costs involved.  If you want to show your support to the list - use PayPal to 
send contribution --   
https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
  Thanks - Stu
--
Sent from Gmail Mobile
Thanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help with the 
costs involved.  If you want to show your support to the list - use PayPal to 
send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray  Thanks - Stu

Stus-List Re: Rod rigging question

[Jeffrey A. Laman via CnC-List]

Hi Matt,
Can you provide a photo?  "Nick" is very subjective and can be benign or 
serious.  Depends on depth, direction of the flaw, etc.  Put something in the 
photo for scale.
Jeff Laman
81 C&C34 Harmony
Ludington, MI


From: Matthew via CnC-List 
Sent: Wednesday, June 2, 2021 4:32 PM
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com 
Cc: Matthew 
Subject: Stus-List Rod rigging question


Listers:



I have a question for you engineer types.  I recently noticed a 
nick in one of my rod rigging shrouds.  I don’t know much about rod rigging 
failure considerations, but I do recall reading awhile back that nicks are bad. 
 Is there anything that can be done (short of replacement) to address a nick to 
make a failure less likely?



As always, thanks in advance.



Matt

C&C 42 Custom



Matthew L. Wolford
638 West Sixth Street
Erie, PA 16507
(814) 459-9600 (Office)
(814) 459-9661 (Fax)
(814) 392-5599 (Cell)

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Stus-List Re: Where to start with a gradually stiffening rudder? [C&C 34]

[Jeffrey A. Laman via CnC-List]

Hi Andrew,

I have a 1981 C&C34 so not certain if we have the same rudder shaft 
arrangement, but I'll explain what I have and you can have a look at yours.  A 
friend has a 1981 C&C36 and his setup is the same.

Crawl back below the cockpit to the rudder shaft and look for a grease cup on 
the rudder shaft housing.  The cup is about midway up the shaft housing facing 
forward.  It looks like a 1" diameter metal, screwed on cap about an inch tall 
(tall measuring horizontal).  Get yourself some good, waterproof, grease (the 
local marina recommended "Green Grease" but was out.  I stopped at WM and got 
some "Corrosion Block, Waterproof Grease".  It's blue.  Dig out whatever old 
grease you can from the grease cup and refill with fresh grease.  Screw the 
grease cup all the way back on.  Then repeat -- remove the grease cup, fill 
with fresh grease (no need to clean out because there will be a small amount of 
fresh grease from the previous cycle).  Repeat.  Eventually you will see the 
old grease comming out the top of the rudder shaft housing.  If the boat is in 
the water, you can see the top of the rudder and watch for fresh grease coming 
out.  I did this about 20 times before much old grease started to move -- 
really old, brown, hard grease.

The PO of my boat did not understand that the fill, screw on, remove, fill, 
screw on .. had to be repeated many times.  He filled the cup once, turned 
it on, and thought that was it!  PO used to brag how balanced the boat was as 
he let go of the wheel and the boat continued on -- fact was the steering was 
so stiff it took a lot to move the rudder.  Now I can steer with one finger 
after putting nearly an entire tube of grease in.

You will find that crawling back to access the grease cup isn't a picnic.  The 
C&C36 owner installed a Zerc fitting right on the grease cup and ran a 3ft hose 
forward.  I did the same.  Now we can attach a grease gun to the easily 
accessible hose and lube the rudder shaft.  Once a year ought to do it.  Good 
luck!

Jeff Laman
1981 C&C34 "Harmony"
Ludington, MI


From: Andrew Means via CnC-List 
Sent: Monday, June 28, 2021 6:58 PM
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com 
Cc: Andrew Means 
Subject: Stus-List Where to start with a gradually stiffening rudder? [C&C 34]

Hey all -

When we bought our 1978 C&C 34 it had a nice smooth rudder action via our wheel 
helm. Over the past two years it's gradually stiffened and I think we need some 
amount of lubrication, but I'm not really sure where to start to diagnose the 
issue and come up with a plan to fix it. Anybody familiar with the steering 
setup on the 34?

Andrew
Thanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help with the 
costs involved.  If you want to show your support to the list - use PayPal to 
send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray  Thanks - Stu

Stus-List Re: Old Harken Roller II

[Jeffrey A. Laman via CnC-List]

Hi Todd -- I also have a C&C34 and had the same problem with the wire halyard, 
but my halyard was new.  If your situation is as mine, the luff of your head 
sail is too short and the swivel of the furler needs to go higher.  I did the 
same as you when I kept getting halyard wraps and saw that the halyard was 
getting messed up -- I got a double braid halyard on instead and all seemed 
fine.  Until the end of the season when I lowered the head sail and saw that 
the double braided halyard was all chewed up.  I made a 6" diameter Dyneema 
loop and lifted the head sail that much higher.  Bingo -- no more problems, the 
wire halyard, since repaired, is good, no more wraps.  Moral of the story -- 
check the double braid halyard to make sure that isn't getting chewed up.  You 
can certainly install a restrainer to increase the angle at the top sheave, but 
a Dyneema loop is a lot easier solution.
Jeff Laman
1981 C&C34
Harmony
Ludington, MI


From: Todd Williams via CnC-List 
Sent: Monday, July 12, 2021 9:14 PM
To: Stus-List 
Cc: Todd Williams 
Subject: Stus-List Re: Old Harken Roller II

I am a new C&C34 owner and initially had trouble with my Harken Furler. The 
wire halyard wraps around at the masthead when furling. It was clear from the 
fraying wire and twisted coil that this had been a problem. I switched over to 
a braided line jib halyard and it works fine now. I also watched a youtube 
video (pretty old footage) that specified a 7 degree angle between the furling 
foil and the halyard up at the masthead and that Harken makes a fitting to 
mount on the mast a bit down from the top in order to increase that angle. Now 
that it works, I will clean and lubricate it to make it even better!

Todd R. Williams
C&C 34
Sodus Bay, NY

On Mon, Jul 12, 2021 at 3:46 PM Dennis C. via CnC-List 
mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>> wrote:
I rigorously flush my Harken furler's drum and swivel assemblies with dock 
water every spring and sometimes in the fall.  Use a hard jet spray and be sure 
to spray each assembly from various angles.  Particularly spray the drum 
assembly from below and in the drum itself.  You'll need to pull all the 
furling line out to do that.   Tie a knot in the line at the first stanchion 
block and make a note of which way it winds.

Harken roller furlers really don't require any additional lubrication, just the 
periodic rigorous flushing with water.  However, I do spray mine with McLube 
for good measure.

--
Dennis C.
Touche' 35-1 #83
Mandeville, LA

On Mon, Jul 12, 2021 at 2:15 PM Joe Della Barba via CnC-List 
mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>> wrote:

What did you use for lube? (for the FURLER!!)





Joe Della Barba

Coquina C&C 35 MK I

Kent Island MD USA








Thanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help with the 
costs involved.  If you want to show your support to the list - use PayPal to 
send contribution --   
https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
  Thanks - Stu
Thanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help with the 
costs involved.  If you want to show your support to the list - use PayPal to 
send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray  Thanks - Stu

Stus-List Re: Stuffing Box

[Jeffrey A. Laman via CnC-List]

Hello all,

From time to time this discussion of stuffing box vs PSS dripless comes up and 
catastrophic failure is typically mentioned.

Has anyone on this list experienced a PSS catastrophic failure (that is the 
fault of PSS) or have direct knowledge of someone who did?

Installed PSS 4 years ago. Maintenance free = more time sailing.

Jeff Laman
1981 C&C34
Harmony
Ludington, Mi

Get Outlook for Android


From: Robert Boyer via CnC-List 
Sent: Tuesday, July 13, 2021 7:34:29 AM
To: Stus-List 
Cc: Robert Boyer 
Subject: Stus-List Re: Stuffing Box

I’ve had a PSS shaft seal for our long time on our LF38 with no problems except 
when a shaft key broke and allowed the shaft to slip.  However, the same thing 
could have happened with packing.  I would never consider going back to packing.

Bob

Bob Boyer
s/v Rainy Days
C&C Landfall 38 (Hull # 230)
(Spending winters in warm places, and summers on the Chesapeake Bay)
blog: dainyrays.blogspot.com
email: dainyr...@icloud.com

On Jul 13, 2021, at 7:26 AM, Marek Dziedzic via CnC-List 
 wrote:



+1 on that; though I have mine for only 9 years.



Marek



1994 #122 ”Legato”

Ottawa, ON







From: ssjohnson via CnC-List
Sent: Monday, July 12, 2021 11:10 PM
To: Stus-List 
Cc: ssjohnson 
Subject: Stus-List Re: Stuffing Box



I've had a PSS shafted, and a DRY bilge for 10 years...think it is great.

Spencer Johnson

84 LF38

Racine, WI



Thanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help with the 
costs involved.  If you want to show your support to the list - use PayPal to 
send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray  Thanks - Stu
Thanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help with the 
costs involved.  If you want to show your support to the list - use PayPal to 
send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray  Thanks - Stu

Stus-List Re: Stuffing Box

[Jeffrey A. Laman via CnC-List]

Let's exclude power boats -- an entirely different environment and demand on 
the hardware.
Jeff L.


From: WILLIAM WALKER via CnC-List 
Sent: Tuesday, July 13, 2021 8:49 AM
To: Steve Thomas via CnC-List 
Cc: WILLIAM WALKER 
Subject: Stus-List Re: Stuffing Box

I have had PSS droplets on two boats for over 20 years with absolutely no 
issues.  I wonder if failure related to fact it was power boat with more hours 
of turning shaft at higher rpms and maybe not sufficient cooling?
In the end, it's what let's you sleep at night that's important.
Bill Walker

On Tuesday, July 13, 2021, 08:34:58 AM EDT, Steve Thomas via CnC-List 
 wrote:



The power boat that was docked next to me at a marina in Florida experienced 
such a failure. I was there when it happened. The owner knocked on my boat and 
wanted a portable water pump if I had one. Long story short, water came in 
faster than the bilge pumps could get it out and he got an emergency tow $$$ to 
the travel lift for a haul out. There was another failure that I did not 
personally witness within a year or so of that event. This was at a 600 slip 
marina, not a scientific sample or experiment I concede, but enough to scare me 
off. I make no claim that the devices were properly maintained, just that 
bronze packing glands don't shatter. It may be that newer "dripless" designs 
exist that won't fail in this way, I don't know, but I know for a fact that 
some designs can and do under some circumstances.

Steve Thomas

C&C27 MKIII - Ontario

C&C36 MKI - Florida


-- Original Message --
From: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
Cc: jlam...@outlook.com
Sent: Tuesday, July 13, 2021 7:47 AM
Subject: Stus-List Re: Stuffing Box

Hello all,

From time to time this discussion of stuffing box vs PSS dripless comes up and 
catastrophic failure is typically mentioned.

Has anyone on this list experienced a PSS catastrophic failure (that is the 
fault of PSS) or have direct knowledge of someone who did?

Installed PSS 4 years ago. Maintenance free = more time sailing.

Jeff Laman
1981 C&C34
Harmony
Ludington, Mi

Get Outlook for 
Android


From: Robert Boyer via CnC-List 
Sent: Tuesday, July 13, 2021 7:34:29 AM
To: Stus-List 
Cc: Robert Boyer 
Subject: Stus-List Re: Stuffing Box
I’ve had a PSS shaft seal for our long time on our LF38 with no problems except 
when a shaft key broke and allowed the shaft to slip. However, the same thing 
could have happened with packing. I would never consider going back to packing.

Bob

Bob Boyer
s/v Rainy Days
C&C Landfall 38 (Hull # 230)
(Spending winters in warm places, and summers on the Chesapeake Bay)
blog: dainyrays.blogspot.com
email: dainyr...@icloud.com

On Jul 13, 2021, at 7:26 AM, Marek Dziedzic via CnC-List 
 wrote:



+1 on that; though I have mine for only 9 years.

Marek

1994 #122 ”Legato”

Ottawa, ON

From: ssjohnson via CnC-List
Sent: Monday, July 12, 2021 11:10 PM
To: Stus-List 
Cc: ssjohnson 
Subject: Stus-List Re: Stuffing Box

I've had a PSS shafted, and a DRY bilge for 10 years...think it is great.

Spencer Johnson

84 LF38

Racine, WI

Thanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help with the 
costs involved. If you want to show your support to the list - use PayPal to 
send contribution -- https://www.paypal.me/stumurray Thanks - Stu

Thanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help with the 
costs involved. If you want to show your support to the list - use PayPal to 
send contribution -- 
https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
 Thanks - Stu




Thanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help with the 
costs involved.  If you want to show your support to the list - use PayPal to 
send contribution --  https://www.paypal.me/stumurray 

 Thanks - Stu
Thanks t

Stus-List Re: Winch Sealant suggestions

[Jeffrey A. Laman via CnC-List]

Butyl is by far the best option. Removal of winch in future will be far easier. 
Butyl is an excellent sealant. There is no reason to overdo the sealing here 
anyway. Leaks drip down to bilge without adversely affecting anything.

Jeff Laman
1981 C&C34 Harmony
Ludington, Mich

Get Outlook for Android

From: Dean McNeill via CnC-List 
Sent: Wednesday, April 10, 2024 5:42:22 PM
To: Stus-List 
Cc: Dean McNeill 
Subject: Stus-List Winch Sealant suggestions

I mentioned a while back I was planning on replacing my old Barient primary 
winches…. well I’ve got a pair of new Harken 46 ST’s ready to go. I’ve removed 
the old winches, sealed the old holes, have starboard backing plates (probably 
overkill) and I'm ready to go.

Wondering what you folks suggest for sealing under new winches, between winch 
base and fibreglass of cockpit? Old winches didn’t seem to have anything other 
than a bit of Butyl Tape around and in the bolt holes.

Should I just do the same (appears to be solid fibreglass with no wood core at 
all under the winches). I’ve thought of putting some 5200 under bases, but I 
never like using that under something I may need to remove someday! Should I 
use 4200? Or something else?

What says the C&C brain trust?

Thanks, Dean

BarraWind
1980 C&C 34
Halifax NS
Please show your appreciation for this list and the Photo Album site and help 
me pay the associated bills.  Make a contribution at:
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Thanks for your help.
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me pay the associated bills.  Make a contribution at:
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Thanks for your help.
Stu

Stus-List Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: Winterizing the engine

[Jeffrey A. Laman via CnC-List]

Doesn't mean it's good for the environment.  Would you drink it?

From: Della Barba, Joe via CnC-List 
Sent: Wednesday, November 20, 2024 10:13 AM
To: Stus-List 
Cc: CHARLES SCHEAFFER ; Della Barba, Joe 

Subject: Stus-List Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: Winterizing the engine


Airports spray it on airplanes by the thousands of gallons and no one is 
catching all that!





Joe Della Barba





From: Richard Bush via CnC-List 
Sent: Wednesday, November 20, 2024 9:56 AM
To: Stus-List 
Cc: CHARLES SCHEAFFER ; Richard Bush 
Subject: [EXTERNAL] Stus-List Re: Winterizing the engine



What's wrong with the pink stuff? I though it was supposed to be 
biodegradable?





Richard

1985 C&C 37 CB; Ohio River, Mile 596;

Richard N. Bush Law Offices

2950 Breckenridge Lane, Suite Nine

Louisville, Kentucky 40220

(502) 584-7255





On Wednesday, November 20, 2024 at 09:53:22 AM EST, CHARLES SCHEAFFER via 
CnC-List mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>> wrote:





Hi Dave,

Your method saves buying chemicals, and saves poluting the environment, but the 
old method of sticking the engine's water intake hose into a bucket of 
antifreeze and running the engine until the pink stuff exits the exhaust is 
slightly more thorough and less crawling around.  Our muffler has no drain.



I use two buckets.  One has a hose bibb fitting at the bottom and a short hose 
with a ball valve allows me to close the valve before starting the engine.  The 
second bucket, is what I use to scrub the deck and it gets hung by rope tied to 
the stern rail.  It gets positioned under the transom and next to the exhaust 
so it can be swung under the exhaust to catch the pink stuff when it bright 
pink.  I let the seawater shoot past and collect the last gallon of pink.  I 
use it for the sink drains.



Chuck S





On 11/20/2024 9:14 AM EST Dave S via CnC-List 
mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>> wrote:





I never pumped antifreeze through the seawater side of my 2gm20f, and did not 
have a problem in 10 yrs of Toronto winters.I did drain the seawater side 
by disconnecting the lower water pump hose, and draining the seawater strainer 
and muffler.



Dave



Sent from my iPhone



On Nov 20, 2024, at 5:44 AM, Paul Hood via CnC-List 
mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>> wrote:

I can’t answer your question, but I also thought about that recently and I 
realized that antifreeze is running around the head.  While the block is cold, 
the thermostat is closed, directing the antifreeze around the head.  Never had 
a problem but was curious about the water that might be remaining in there.



Paul Hood

REFUGE – 1981 C&C34 on Georgian Bay /)



From: David Knecht via CnC-List 
mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>>
Sent: November 20, 2024 8:33 AM
To: CnC CnC discussion list 
mailto:CnC-List@cnc-list.com>>
Cc: David Knecht mailto:davidakne...@gmail.com>>
Subject: Stus-List Winterizing the engine



After winterized my boat I got to thinking about the process of pumping 
antifreeze through the engine and water tank system.  Some people winterize 
their house water system by blowing all the water out of the lines instead of 
pumping in antifreeze.  If you did the same with the seawater side of the 
engine by simple running the engine until nothing came out of the exhaust hose, 
wouldn't that work to protect the engine from freezing over the winter?  That 
might be a problem running a standard impeller in the water pump dry, but with 
a run-dry impeller, I don't see why it wouldn't work.  Dave



S/V Aries

1990 C&C 34+

New London, CT

[cid:image001.png@01DB3B34.E521D720]



Your contributions help pay the fees associated with this list and help to keep 
it active.  Please help by making a small contribution using PayPal at:  
https://www.paypal.com/paypalme/stumurray  All contributions are greatly 
appreciated.

Your contributions help pay the fees associated with this list and help to keep 
it active. Please help by making a small contribution using PayPal at: 
https://www.paypal.com/paypalme/stumurray All contributions are greatly 
appreciated.

Your contributions help pay the fees associated with this list and help to keep 
it active.  Please help by making a small contribution using PayPal at:  
https://www.paypal.com/paypalme/stumurray  All contributions are greatly 
appreciated.
Your contributions help pay the fees associated with this list and help to keep 
it active.  Please help by making a small contribution using PayPal at:  
https://www.paypal.com/paypalme/stumurray  All contributions are greatly 
appreciated.

Stus-List Re: old rod rigging

[Jeffrey A. Laman via CnC-List]

A comment or two regarding fatigue --

Most ferrous metals exhibit what is known as an endurance limit. This is a 
stress level below which the material is expected to survive infinite cycles. I 
have no detailed knowledge of the high strength stainless rod material fatigue 
properties, however I suspect stresses induced by boat rocking at the dock are 
below the endurance limit and therefore of no consequence.

Evaluation of fatigue life and accumulated fatigue damage is highly uncertain. 
The load history is often unavailable, certainly the case for a sailboat. Also, 
material resistance to fatigue is quite variable. So, in effect, both sides of 
the equation significant uncertainty. If an evaluation is conducted and 1.0 is 
the division between survival and failure, the actual failure can range from 
0.3 to 10.

Get Outlook for Android

From: Andrew Burton via CnC-List 
Sent: Thursday, December 12, 2024 3:22:50 PM
To: Stus-List 
Cc: Joe Della Barba ; Stus-List 
; Andrew Burton 
Subject: Stus-List Re: old rod rigging

On both my C&C 40 and my current boat I took my rigging to a professional and 
had it inspected. He re-headed some pieces and on Masquerade, my current boat, 
replaced the turnbuckles. But the rod is still good.
Andy

Andrew Burton
26 Beacon Hill
Newport, RI
USA02840
Www.burtonsailing.com
http://sites.google.com/site/andrewburtonyachtservices/
+401 965-5260

On Dec 12, 2024, at 14:34, Rob Hamlin via CnC-List  
wrote:

I’m replacing the rod, turn buckles and furler on Sapphire 37+ this season, 
only because of piece of mind.

The boat is a 1990 with 34 year old rigging always made me think, when I’m 
racing in 25kts of breeze hammering up hill.

-Rob

Sent from my iPhone

On Dec 12, 2024, at 2:23 PM, Matthew Wolford via CnC-List 
 wrote:



I believe I am sailing with original rod rigging (1975).  I have been told by 
some that it needs to be replaced, and I have been told by others – including 
mechanical engineers – it probably does not.  As I understand it, the issue is 
fatigue based on a number of “cycles” (pressure applied then relieved).  A boat 
rocking in waves (even at the dock) adds to the number of cycles, but the 
fatigue point allows for millions of cycles.  My boat is on the hard for over 
half the year, thereby limiting the number of cycles.  Also, two big problems 
for rod rigging is nicks in the surface and the cracks in the balls joints at 
the mast (which should be inspected and possibly replaced).



Perhaps my friend Bill Coleman will comment.  He knows all about metal.  Bill?



From: Della Barba, Joe via CnC-List 
Sent: Thursday, December 12, 2024 2:15 PM
To: Stus-List 
Cc: Della Barba, Joe 
Subject: Stus-List old rod rigging



Question for the collective knowledge base here:

Would you sail a 1980s era boat with original rod rigging or is it going to 
fall on your head any second?



Joe Della Barba

Coquina

Your contributions help pay the fees associated with this list and help to keep 
it active.  Please help by making a small contribution using PayPal at:  
https://www.paypal.com/paypalme/stumurray  All contributions are greatly 
appreciated.
Your contributions help pay the fees associated with this list and help to keep 
it active.  Please help by making a small contribution using PayPal at:  
https://www.paypal.com/paypalme/stumurray  All contributions are greatly 
appreciated.
Your contributions help pay the fees associated with this list and help to keep 
it active.  Please help by making a small contribution using PayPal at:  
https://www.paypal.com/paypalme/stumurray  All contributions are greatly 
appreciated.

Stus-List Re: old rod rigging

[Jeffrey A. Laman via CnC-List]

I have owned a 1981 C&C for 7 years. I crewed on the boat for 8 years prior to 
ownership. I am quite certain it has original rod rigging. I look everything 
over at deck level each spring and everything looks in very good condition. No 
worries whatsoever.

But, as far as I know, the boat has never seen salt water. Had it been or was 
currently in salt water I don't think i would be so worry free. The action of 
corrosion would be much greater. And there is also corrosion fatigue to 
consider -- corrosion product forms at a microscopic level, stress and strain 
dislodge the corrosion product and exposes fresh metal. Fresh metal corrodes, 
and on it goes.

I sent another response and touched send before I finished. Sorry. An 
additional fatigue item is that not all stress cycles have the same damaging 
effect. High stress is more damage. Also sequence effects may play a role. 
Cycles that follow a very high stress cycle are more damaging than otherwise.

So, I suppose this is a case of, it depends and the true situation is 
unknowable.

Jeff Laman
1981 C&C34 Harmony
Ludington, Michigan

Get Outlook for Android<https://aka.ms/AAb9ysg>
________
From: Jeffrey A. Laman via CnC-List 
Sent: Thursday, December 12, 2024 6:13:10 PM
To: Stus-List 
Cc: Jeffrey A. Laman 
Subject: Stus-List Re: old rod rigging

A comment or two regarding fatigue --

Most ferrous metals exhibit what is known as an endurance limit. This is a 
stress level below which the material is expected to survive infinite cycles. I 
have no detailed knowledge of the high strength stainless rod material fatigue 
properties, however I suspect stresses induced by boat rocking at the dock are 
below the endurance limit and therefore of no consequence.

Evaluation of fatigue life and accumulated fatigue damage is highly uncertain. 
The load history is often unavailable, certainly the case for a sailboat. Also, 
material resistance to fatigue is quite variable. So, in effect, both sides of 
the equation significant uncertainty. If an evaluation is conducted and 1.0 is 
the division between survival and failure, the actual failure can range from 
0.3 to 10.

Get Outlook for Android<https://aka.ms/AAb9ysg>

From: Andrew Burton via CnC-List 
Sent: Thursday, December 12, 2024 3:22:50 PM
To: Stus-List 
Cc: Joe Della Barba ; Stus-List 
; Andrew Burton 
Subject: Stus-List Re: old rod rigging

On both my C&C 40 and my current boat I took my rigging to a professional and 
had it inspected. He re-headed some pieces and on Masquerade, my current boat, 
replaced the turnbuckles. But the rod is still good.
Andy

Andrew Burton
26 Beacon Hill
Newport, RI
USA02840
Www.burtonsailing.com
http://sites.google.com/site/andrewburtonyachtservices/
+401 965-5260

On Dec 12, 2024, at 14:34, Rob Hamlin via CnC-List  
wrote:

I’m replacing the rod, turn buckles and furler on Sapphire 37+ this season, 
only because of piece of mind.

The boat is a 1990 with 34 year old rigging always made me think, when I’m 
racing in 25kts of breeze hammering up hill.

-Rob

Sent from my iPhone

On Dec 12, 2024, at 2:23 PM, Matthew Wolford via CnC-List 
 wrote:



I believe I am sailing with original rod rigging (1975).  I have been told by 
some that it needs to be replaced, and I have been told by others – including 
mechanical engineers – it probably does not.  As I understand it, the issue is 
fatigue based on a number of “cycles” (pressure applied then relieved).  A boat 
rocking in waves (even at the dock) adds to the number of cycles, but the 
fatigue point allows for millions of cycles.  My boat is on the hard for over 
half the year, thereby limiting the number of cycles.  Also, two big problems 
for rod rigging is nicks in the surface and the cracks in the balls joints at 
the mast (which should be inspected and possibly replaced).



Perhaps my friend Bill Coleman will comment.  He knows all about metal.  Bill?



From: Della Barba, Joe via CnC-List 
Sent: Thursday, December 12, 2024 2:15 PM
To: Stus-List 
Cc: Della Barba, Joe 
Subject: Stus-List old rod rigging



Question for the collective knowledge base here:

Would you sail a 1980s era boat with original rod rigging or is it going to 
fall on your head any second?



Joe Della Barba

Coquina

Your contributions help pay the fees associated with this list and help to keep 
it active.  Please help by making a small contribution using PayPal at:  
https://www.paypal.com/paypalme/stumurray  All contributions are greatly 
appreciated.
Your contributions help pay the fees associated with this list and help to keep 
it active.  Please help by making a small contribution using PayPal at:  
https://www.paypal.com/paypalme/stumurray  All contributions are greatly 
appreciated.
Your contributions help pay the fees associated with this list and help to keep 
it active.  Please help by making a small contribution using PayPal at:  
https://www.paypa