Re: Stus-List Subject: Re: Keel repair

[Dave Syer via CnC-List]

In my case, was not suggesting it is superior, I just prefer to purchase
the raw materials.   This way, I can use unfilled as a first coat, make a
putty for the fill, and laminate at the end.   Same epoxy, sometimes even
the same batch for multiple applications/jobs. YMMV.
Dave

On Tue, Nov 24, 2015 at 8:49 AM, David Knecht 
wrote:

> I really don’t understand why people think that epoxy resin thickened with
> stuff to bring it to the consistency of putty is better to use than epoxy
> putty designed for the purpose.  They are equally hard and equally stiff.
> Am I missing something?  Dave
>
> Aries
> 1990 C&C 34+
> New London, CT
>
>
> On Nov 23, 2015, at 11:05 AM, Syerdave--- via CnC-List <
> cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote:
>
> For lead keel repair I think I'd just "clean" it very aggressively with an
> angle grinder and a new, very coarse disk, then immediately paint it with
> unfilled epoxy.  While that is curing to its "B" stage, mix up a very stiff
> batch of epoxy filled with fumed silica and chopped glass.   Fill it when
> the first coat is gelled/tacky.  if its a huge crater, i might take two
> layers, (and a real good look for structural damage elsewhere) apply the
> second while the first is at its B stage.  To finish that you could lay
> light glass cloth or better, just peel-ply on top while still pliable/wet
> and fair it pretty well with a plastic squeegee.
> I've never seen the aft edge of a keel fail.  In the absence of an issues,
> I'm not sure I'd worry about that.  My 33ii has a very thin trailing edge,
> still intact after 30 years.
> Dave
>
>
>
>
> ___
>
> Email address:
> CnC-List@cnc-list.com
> To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go to the
> bottom of page at:
> http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com
>
>
>
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Re: Stus-List Update: Re: Keel attachment issues on a C&C 25

[Bill Coleman via CnC-List]

<<) please feel free to scold me :)>>

 

OK, with that license,  Ahmet, for chrissakes, quit pussyfooting around and
just buy the right washer for the job!


91122A140  

Just get some of these washers that McMaster has kindly put in stock for
you, and be done with it.

I am assuming those are 1 inch bolts, if not, they have other sizes, such as
¾”  91122A130  

 

Bill Coleman

C&C 39 Erie, PA

 

From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of Ahmet via
CnC-List
Sent: Tuesday, November 24, 2015 2:10 AM
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
Cc: Ahmet
Subject: Stus-List Update: Re: Keel attachment issues on a C&C 25

 

A few weeks ago I started a thread about the rust on my keel bolt washers
 .

 

Today, I bit the bullet and removed one keelbolt with the boat in the water
with a 3 ft breaker bar extended with a pipe. The nut seemed to still have
the right torque, and came out once I applied the force in the right
direction :)

 

I was able to peel off the corroded washer/backing plate with a screwdriver
and a hammer.

 

The bolt threads were clean (pic 5)
  . So was the nut l (pic 9)
  . It was all stainless steel.

I did not get a chance to test the magnetism. I will do tomorrow.

 

At no point was a hint of water seepage.

 

Whatever was left as the rusted plate under the washer is in this picture
 . It looks like an iron
  backing plate. It is very
magnetic.

 

All I had was galvanized washers. So I put the good stainless steel washer
to the bottom added 2 galvanized washers and a galvanized lock washer and
tightened  the nut back to approx, 200
  lbs-ft. 

 

Probably useless, but I put some boat-life under the stainless washer which
probably got totally squeezed out. In the picture
  you can not see the stainless
washer because it is thinner and hidden behind the silicon.

 

There is a slight bulge at the base of the keel bolt. 

 

Repair plan:

I am planning to use:

*   Marine-Tex just  to flatten out the bilge area, probably max 1/4
inches in the deepest areas, Â 
*   use  a layer of 3m 4200 
*   a  4 by 4 by 1 inch G-10 board as a backing plate 
*   followed with triple 316 stainless washers.

 

Does it look like overkill ? Should I just use 1/2 inch thick G-10 boards ?

 

I will keep an eye on the galvanized washers. I am not very comfortable
mixing galvanized with stainless.

 

Now that I have sort of an idea what is under the nuts, I will complete the
job for the other washers when I pull the rest of the nuts out while on the
dry next spring.

 

If someone sees something wrong in all these (besides removing the nut while
in the water, which seems to be a very contested subject  ) please feel
free to scold me :)

 

Thank You

Ahmet

Winthrop Yacht Club / Constitution Marina, Boston, MA

1990 Irwin 43 CC "Waterdancer"

1973 C&C 25 "Tabasco"

 

 

 

 

 

 

On Sun, Nov 8, 2015 at 11:08 PM, Josh Muckley via CnC-List
 wrote:

Actual torque values are available on the photo album site.  

Another material which you might find handy would be G10 FRP board.  It
comes in 1/4" and 1/2".  I can see the 1/2" working really well to act as
one large strong back for multiple keel bolts.  Glop some very thick epoxy
or some Six10 under the board before setting it if you want.  You could use
mold release on the bolts or the G10 board if you thought that you might
want to remove either in the future.

Josh Muckley
S/V Sea Hawk
1989 C&C 37+
Solomons, MD

On Nov 8, 2015 10:37 PM, "Ahmet via CnC-List"  wrote:

Thanks a lot guys. I will respond in one email to all the feedback to save
on band with.

 

Gary Kolc: Thank you that is very interesting and good to know 

 

Dave: I will follow your advise and use 4200. Most of the pictures I see
have some kind of a sealant. Pretty much all of it will get squeezed out
when the torque is applied anyway. I guess what is left will be whatever is
on the uneven parts under the washer, and perhaps squeezed in into the area
around the bolt. "70'es hot -rod fiberglass sorcery"... That about sums it
up :) You are right they are probably original.

 

I will lay up as much fiberglass as I can without removing the nut, to add
width, trying to make the sump area as clean as Rick T. 's pictures show. 

I need to use a roller and go slow in order to make sure not to have voids.
Maybe I'll put a 1 inch oak plywood vertically into that area and then
epoxy/glass it in. I am not very familiar with fiberglass work, so I'll pick
some other's brains here. filling in an area of 4 by 7 by 2 inches with
epoxy/fillers  and glass may be too much.

 

 

Ri

Re: Stus-List Update: Re: Keel attachment issues on a C&C 25

[Rick Brass via CnC-List]

Damn. Wish I’d thought about McMaster-Carr when I did my boat 20-some years
ago. I paid more than $5 a plate way back then.

 

Rick Brass

Washington, NC

 

 

 

From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of Bill
Coleman via CnC-List
Sent: Tuesday, November 24, 2015 10:30 AM
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
Cc: Bill Coleman 
Subject: Re: Stus-List Update: Re: Keel attachment issues on a C&C 25

 

<<) please feel free to scold me :)>>

 

OK, with that license,  Ahmet, for chrissakes, quit pussyfooting around and
just buy the right washer for the job!


91122A140  

Just get some of these washers that McMaster has kindly put in stock for
you, and be done with it.

I am assuming those are 1 inch bolts, if not, they have other sizes, such as
¾”  91122A130  

 

Bill Coleman

C&C 39 Erie, PA

 

 

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Re: Stus-List Update: Re: Keel attachment issues on a C&C 25

[Rick Brass via CnC-List]

Ahmet;

 

As I said before, I replaced the original steel backing plates (if I recall, 
they were more like steel fender washers) on my 25 when she was a bit over 20 
years old. I had some square backing plates made out of 3/16” or ¼” stainless. 
About 3 or 4 inches square and with the proper sized holes drilled in the 
middle.  A local machine shop could probably knock out the 5 or 6 plates you 
will need in not much more than an hour – or you might get a friend with a 
suitable shop in his garage to do it for the price of a 12 pack. I think I put 
a bead of 4200 under each plate when I torqued them down, but I suspect that 
was actually overkill. 

 

Were I to do the same job today, I would go to Fastenall, or another industrial 
hardware supplier, and buy a stack of stainless fender washers of the 
appropriate sizes and just put two washers under each nut and retorque the nuts.

 

Proper torque on the nut is very important. I think I borrowed or rented a 
torque wrench and a torque multiplier from a local NAPA store when I did my 
project. The photo album has a listing of the proper torque values.

 

If you had no leakage when you removed the nut, the sealant between the top of 
the keel and the keel stub is still doing its job after 40-some years. Proper 
torque on the keel boats will keep it so. Sealant on the inside of the joint is 
probably not going to keep any leakage out. But sealant between the washers and 
the bolt in the presence of water in the bilge is a potential recipe for 
crevice corrosion that will weaken the bolt.

 

If your boat is like mine, that may not be a concern. Belle is a very dry boat. 
Every 6 months or so I clean out the bilge – usually with a sponge. I don’t 
recall having accumulated more than an inch of water in the bilge since I 
refinished and rebidded the handrails and added some butyl around the chain 
plates a decade or more ago.

 

I would personally be a bit leery of using the G10 as a backing material. You 
have a lot of compression under the nuts, but you also might have shock loading 
if you ever run aground, and a fair bit of torsional loading as the boat heels 
and moves in the waves while sailing. I think stainless would be a stronger and 
more conservative choice.

 

 

Rick Brass

Imzadi  C&C 38 mk 2

la Belle Aurore C&C 25 mk1

Washington, NC

 

 

 

 

From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of Ahmet via 
CnC-List
Sent: Tuesday, November 24, 2015 2:10 AM
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
Cc: Ahmet 
Subject: Stus-List Update: Re: Keel attachment issues on a C&C 25

 

A few weeks ago I started a thread about the rust on my keel bolt washers 
 .

 

Today, I bit the bullet and removed one keelbolt with the boat in the water 
with a 3 ft breaker bar extended with a pipe. The nut seemed to still have the 
right torque, and came out once I applied the force in the right direction :)

 

I was able to peel off the corroded washer/backing plate with a screwdriver and 
a hammer.

 

The bolt threads were clean (pic 5) 
  . So was the nut l (pic 9) 
  . It was all stainless steel.

I did not get a chance to test the magnetism. I will do tomorrow.

 

At no point was a hint of water seepage.

 

Whatever was left as the rusted plate under the washer is in this picture 
 . It looks like an iron backing 
plate  . It is very magnetic.

 

All I had was galvanized washers. So I put the good stainless steel washer to 
the bottom added 2 galvanized washers and a galvanized lock washer and 
tightened  the nut back to approx, 200 lbs-ft 
 . 

 

Probably useless, but I put some boat-life under the stainless washer which 
probably got totally squeezed out. In the picture 
  you can not see the stainless 
washer because it is thinner and hidden behind the silicon.

 

There is a slight bulge at the base of the keel bolt. 

 

Repair plan:

I am planning to use:

* Marine-Tex just  to flatten out the bilge area, probably max 1/4 
inches in the deepest areas,  

* use  a layer of 3m 4200 

* a  4 by 4 by 1 inch G-10 board as a backing plate 

* followed with triple 316 stainless washers.

 

Does it look like overkill ? Should I just use 1/2 inch thick G-10 boards ?

 

I will keep an eye on the galvanized washers. I am not very comfortable mixing 
galvanized with stainless.

 

Now that I have sort of an idea what is under the nuts, I will complete the job 
for the other washers when I pull the rest of the nuts out while on the dry 
next spring.

 

If someone sees something wrong in all these (besides removing the nut while in 
the water, which seems to be a very contested subject  ) please feel free to 
scold m

Re: Stus-List Update: Re: Keel attachment issues on a C&C 25

[Sailnomad via CnC-List]

That is all well and good except that I don't trust the 18-8 steel as much
as the  316. Nonetheless, definitely a better choice. Thank you for that
reference

So assembly ..


   - marinetex or some hardened resin
   - 4200
   - 1/2 in G10 plate
   - square washer
   - 316 washer lock washer
   - nut.

Rick... they are still $5 a piece.

Thank you
Ahmet




On Nov 24, 2015 11:35 AM, "Rick Brass via CnC-List" 
wrote:

> Damn. Wish I’d thought about McMaster-Carr when I did my boat 20-some
> years ago. I paid more than $5 a plate way back then.
>
>
>
> Rick Brass
>
> Washington, NC
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] *On Behalf Of *Bill
> Coleman via CnC-List
> *Sent:* Tuesday, November 24, 2015 10:30 AM
> *To:* cnc-list@cnc-list.com
> *Cc:* Bill Coleman 
> *Subject:* Re: Stus-List Update: Re: Keel attachment issues on a C&C 25
>
>
>
> <<) please feel free to scold me :)>>
>
>
>
> OK, with that license,  Ahmet, for chrissakes, quit pussyfooting around
> and just buy the right washer for the job!
>
> 91122A140 
>
> Just get some of these washers that McMaster has kindly put in stock for
> you, and be done with it.
>
> I am assuming those are 1 inch bolts, if not, they have other sizes, such
> as ¾”  91122A130 
>
>
>
> Bill Coleman
>
> C&C 39 Erie, PA
>
>
>
>
>
> ___
>
> Email address:
> CnC-List@cnc-list.com
> To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go to the
> bottom of page at:
> http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com
>
>
>
___

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Stus-List Low viscosity Epoxy was Re: Subject: Re: Keel repair

[Ahmet via CnC-List]

Not not hijack this tread, I changed the subject. Since we seem to have
epoxy experts here.

I am trying to take out some slight unevenness from the bottom of my bilge
so that my keel bolt washers have an even contact.
 Can I use some low viscosity epoxy, just pour it into the bilge, probably
dam of the area around the keel bolt with some tape, and let gravity do the
leveling.
We are talking maybe 1/4 in thickness at the highest point.

I was originally thinking of using Marine-Tex but there are some areas
which are a bit awkward to get to.


The issue is that At 200 lbs-ft the clamping force is about 12,000 lbs. So
I need something that will not crumble under the pressure.

So the problem is to be low viscosity yet high compression strength.
Thank you
Ahmet
C&C 25
Boston, MA


On Tue, Nov 24, 2015 at 9:08 AM, Dave Syer via CnC-List <
cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote:

> In my case, was not suggesting it is superior, I just prefer to purchase
> the raw materials.   This way, I can use unfilled as a first coat, make a
> putty for the fill, and laminate at the end.   Same epoxy, sometimes even
> the same batch for multiple applications/jobs. YMMV.
> Dave
>
> On Tue, Nov 24, 2015 at 8:49 AM, David Knecht 
> wrote:
>
>> I really don’t understand why people think that epoxy resin thickened
>> with stuff to bring it to the consistency of putty is better to use than
>> epoxy putty designed for the purpose.  They are equally hard and equally
>> stiff.  Am I missing something?  Dave
>>
>> Aries
>> 1990 C&C 34+
>> New London, CT
>>
>>
>> On Nov 23, 2015, at 11:05 AM, Syerdave--- via CnC-List <
>> cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote:
>>
>> For lead keel repair I think I'd just "clean" it very aggressively with
>> an angle grinder and a new, very coarse disk, then immediately paint it
>> with unfilled epoxy.  While that is curing to its "B" stage, mix up a very
>> stiff batch of epoxy filled with fumed silica and chopped glass.   Fill it
>> when the first coat is gelled/tacky.  if its a huge crater, i might take
>> two layers, (and a real good look for structural damage elsewhere) apply
>> the second while the first is at its B stage.  To finish that you could lay
>> light glass cloth or better, just peel-ply on top while still pliable/wet
>> and fair it pretty well with a plastic squeegee.
>> I've never seen the aft edge of a keel fail.  In the absence of an
>> issues, I'm not sure I'd worry about that.  My 33ii has a very thin
>> trailing edge, still intact after 30 years.
>> Dave
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ___
>>
>> Email address:
>> CnC-List@cnc-list.com
>> To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go to the
>> bottom of page at:
>> http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com
>>
>>
>>
>
> ___
>
> Email address:
> CnC-List@cnc-list.com
> To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go to the
> bottom of page at:
> http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com
>
>
>


-- 
---
Ahmet
*"S/V Waterdancer"* 1990 Irwin 43 CC
"Tabasco" 1973 C&C 25
Winthrop Yacht Club, Winthrop, MA / USA
---
___

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Re: Stus-List Update: Re: Keel attachment issues on a C&C 25

[Martin DeYoung via CnC-List]

>… a bit leery of using the G10 as a backing material.

Properly sized G10 and similar high density epoxy board material is likely 
stronger that the surrounding hull structure.  For keel bolts I would use a SS 
washer under the nut but if additional spacers are needed, even on our 43’s 
9,000 lb. keel I would use epoxy board.

A plus to the epoxy/glass board is the lack of corrosion and relative ease of 
machining (drilling / shaping) however epoxy/glass board will dull drill bits 
and other cutting tools quickly.

On Calypso I have used many different thicknesses of G10 and FR4 (fire 
retardant) in the ongoing deck repair/restoration project.  I have access to 
many thicknesses and types of epoxy board as my company uses it in many 
products.

Calypso’s new deck hardware backing plates are epoxy board or a layup of 
several layers of epoxy board and bi-ax cloth when additional  thickness is 
called for.

Martin DeYoung
Calypso
1971 C&C 43
Seattle

[Description: Description: cid:D1BF9853-22F7-47FB-86F2-4115CE0BAF2F]

From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of Rick Brass 
via CnC-List
Sent: Tuesday, November 24, 2015 8:31 AM
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
Cc: Rick Brass
Subject: Re: Stus-List Update: Re: Keel attachment issues on a C&C 25

Ahmet;

As I said before, I replaced the original steel backing plates (if I recall, 
they were more like steel fender washers) on my 25 when she was a bit over 20 
years old. I had some square backing plates made out of 3/16” or ¼” stainless. 
About 3 or 4 inches square and with the proper sized holes drilled in the 
middle.  A local machine shop could probably knock out the 5 or 6 plates you 
will need in not much more than an hour – or you might get a friend with a 
suitable shop in his garage to do it for the price of a 12 pack. I think I put 
a bead of 4200 under each plate when I torqued them down, but I suspect that 
was actually overkill.

Were I to do the same job today, I would go to Fastenall, or another industrial 
hardware supplier, and buy a stack of stainless fender washers of the 
appropriate sizes and just put two washers under each nut and retorque the nuts.

Proper torque on the nut is very important. I think I borrowed or rented a 
torque wrench and a torque multiplier from a local NAPA store when I did my 
project. The photo album has a listing of the proper torque values.

If you had no leakage when you removed the nut, the sealant between the top of 
the keel and the keel stub is still doing its job after 40-some years. Proper 
torque on the keel boats will keep it so. Sealant on the inside of the joint is 
probably not going to keep any leakage out. But sealant between the washers and 
the bolt in the presence of water in the bilge is a potential recipe for 
crevice corrosion that will weaken the bolt.

If your boat is like mine, that may not be a concern. Belle is a very dry boat. 
Every 6 months or so I clean out the bilge – usually with a sponge. I don’t 
recall having accumulated more than an inch of water in the bilge since I 
refinished and rebidded the handrails and added some butyl around the chain 
plates a decade or more ago.

I would personally be a bit leery of using the G10 as a backing material. You 
have a lot of compression under the nuts, but you also might have shock loading 
if you ever run aground, and a fair bit of torsional loading as the boat heels 
and moves in the waves while sailing. I think stainless would be a stronger and 
more conservative choice.


Rick Brass
Imzadi  C&C 38 mk 2
la Belle Aurore C&C 25 mk1
Washington, NC
___

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Re: Stus-List Update: Re: Keel attachment issues on a C&C 25

[Josh Muckley via CnC-List]

Repair sounds excessive to me.

I already suggested thickened epoxy/Six10 glopped in as a leveling agent
with the 1/2" G10 on top.   G10 is supposed to be pretty hard to cut so
thicker is not necessarily better.  If you do not plan to allow for removal
of the G10 then I would fill and fillet the edges where it nears the bilge
sump walls.  This will create a nice flat easy to clean, easy to paint and
easy to inspect bottom to your sump.

3 washers?  1 should do.  You're just trying to create a load bearing
surface for the nut to drive against.  Assuming that the G10 fits the bolt,
extra washers don't add value.

Josh Muckley
S/V Sea Hawk
1989 C&C 37+
Solomons,
On Nov 24, 2015 2:12 AM, "Ahmet via CnC-List"  wrote:

> A few weeks ago I started a thread about the rust on my keel bolt washers
> .
>
> Today, I bit the bullet and removed one keelbolt with the boat in the
> water with a 3 ft breaker bar extended with a pipe. The nut seemed to still
> have the right torque, and came out once I applied the force in the right
> direction :)
>
> I was able to peel off the corroded washer/backing plate with a
> screwdriver and a hammer.
>
> The bolt threads were clean (pic 5)
>  . So was the nut l (pic 9)
>  . It was all stainless steel.
> I did not get a chance to test the magnetism. I will do tomorrow.
>
> At no point was a hint of water seepage.
>
> Whatever was left as the rusted plate under the washer is in this picture
> . It looks like an iron
> backing plate . It is very
> magnetic.
>
> All I had was galvanized washers. So I put the good stainless steel washer
> to the bottom added 2 galvanized washers and a galvanized lock washer and
> tightened  the nut back to approx, 200 lbs-ft
> .
>
> Probably useless, but I put some boat-life under the stainless washer
> which probably got totally squeezed out. In the picture
>  you can not see the
> stainless washer because it is thinner and hidden behind the silicon.
>
> There is a slight bulge at the base of the keel bolt.
>
> *Repair plan:*
> I am planning to use:
>
>- Marine-Tex just  to flatten out the bilge area, probably max 1/4
>inches in the deepest areas,
>- use  a layer of 3m 4200
>- a  4 by 4 by 1 inch G-10 board as a backing plate
>- followed with triple 316 stainless washers.
>
>
> Does it look like overkill ? Should I just use 1/2 inch thick G-10 boards ?
>
> I will keep an eye on the galvanized washers. I am not very comfortable
> mixing galvanized with stainless.
>
> Now that I have sort of an idea what is under the nuts, I will complete
> the job for the other washers when I pull the rest of the nuts out while on
> the dry next spring.
>
> If someone sees something wrong in all these (*besides removing the nut
> while in the water, which seems to be a very contested subject*  ) please
> feel free to scold me :)
>
> Thank You
>
> *Ahmet*
>
> *Winthrop Yacht Club / Constitution Marina, Boston, MA*
>
> *1990 Irwin 43 CC "Waterdancer"*
>
> *1973 C&C 25 "Tabasco"*
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Sun, Nov 8, 2015 at 11:08 PM, Josh Muckley via CnC-List <
> cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote:
>
>> Actual torque values are available on the photo album site.
>>
>> Another material which you might find handy would be G10 FRP board.  It
>> comes in 1/4" and 1/2".  I can see the 1/2" working really well to act as
>> one large strong back for multiple keel bolts.  Glop some very thick epoxy
>> or some Six10 under the board before setting it if you want.  You could use
>> mold release on the bolts or the G10 board if you thought that you might
>> want to remove either in the future.
>>
>> Josh Muckley
>> S/V Sea Hawk
>> 1989 C&C 37+
>> Solomons, MD
>> On Nov 8, 2015 10:37 PM, "Ahmet via CnC-List" 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Thanks a lot guys. I will respond in one email to all the feedback to
>>> save on band with.
>>>
>>> Gary Kolc: Thank you that is very interesting and good to know
>>>
>>> Dave: I will follow your advise and use 4200. Most of the pictures I see
>>> have some kind of a sealant. Pretty much all of it will get squeezed out
>>> when the torque is applied anyway. I guess what is left will be whatever is
>>> on the uneven parts under the washer, and perhaps squeezed in into the area
>>> around the bolt. "70'es hot -rod fiberglass sorcery"... That about sums it
>>> up :) You are right they are probably original.
>>>
>>> I will lay up as much fiberglass as I can without removing the nut, to
>>> add width, trying to make the sump area as clean as Rick T. 's pictures
>>> show.
>>> I need to use a roller and go slow in order to make sure not to have
>>> voids. Maybe I'll put a 1 inch oak plywood vertically into that area and
>>> then epoxy/glass it in. I am not ve

Re: Stus-List Subject: Re: Keel repair

[Martin DeYoung via CnC-List]

>… I really don’t understand why people think that epoxy resin thickened with 
>stuff to bring it to the consistency of putty is better to use than epoxy 
>putty designed for the purpose.  They are equally hard and equally stiff.

I custom mix my own “bondo” using West Systems epoxy and 6 to 8 different 
fillers (all different densities) for cosmetic filling where there might be a 
load (under hardware) or where extra thickness is required.  I also use 
Cab-o-Sil for a thickener and/or anti slumping agent.

I use the “off the shelf” epoxy fillers for the top layers just before the 
repair is ready for primer.  It is easier to sand and spreads smoother than my 
custom mixes.  I do not use polyester based “off the shelf” fillers especially 
those intended for automotive repairs.  Most inexpensive polyester resins have 
an affinity for water and over time will absorb some into the filler.  Back in 
my autobody repair days I would find rust under bondo filler that was 
relatively recent.

Best regards,

Martin
Calypso
1971 C&C 43
Seattle

From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of Dave Syer 
via CnC-List
Sent: Tuesday, November 24, 2015 6:08 AM
To: David Knecht; cnc-list@cnc-list.com
Cc: Dave Syer
Subject: Re: Stus-List Subject: Re: Keel repair

In my case, was not suggesting it is superior, I just prefer to purchase the 
raw materials.   This way, I can use unfilled as a first coat, make a putty for 
the fill, and laminate at the end.   Same epoxy, sometimes even the same batch 
for multiple applications/jobs. YMMV.
Dave

On Tue, Nov 24, 2015 at 8:49 AM, David Knecht 
mailto:davidakne...@gmail.com>> wrote:
I really don’t understand why people think that epoxy resin thickened with 
stuff to bring it to the consistency of putty is better to use than epoxy putty 
designed for the purpose.  They are equally hard and equally stiff.  Am I 
missing something?  Dave

Aries
1990 C&C 34+
New London, CT

[cid:image001.png@01D126A5.5942BBA0]

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Re: Stus-List Low viscosity Epoxy was Re: Subject: Re: Keel repair

[Martin DeYoung via CnC-List]

I recommend a small amount of thickened epoxy under a piece of G10.  If you use 
a low viscosity (read un-filled) epoxy it may not be reliable under the keel 
bolt clamping force.

If I was performing the same repair on Calypso I would clean / roughen the 
area, butter in some thickened epoxy, place a layer of glass cloth or mat (to 
prevent squeezing out all the epoxy) and top it with the shaped G10.  I would 
butter the bottom of the G10 with thickened epoxy.  Add a little weight or 
clamping pressure to compress the lamination to the desired height checking to 
be sure it is close to parallel with the bottom of the nut.

If there is a concern of epoxy bonding to the keel bolt or nut there are 
several mold release products and tapes available.  Peel ply used in vacuum 
bagging can be very useful.  Let me know if you go this route and need a small 
piece.

Martin DeYoung
Calypso
1971 C&C 43
Seattle

[Description: Description: cid:D1BF9853-22F7-47FB-86F2-4115CE0BAF2F]

From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of Ahmet via 
CnC-List
Sent: Tuesday, November 24, 2015 10:36 AM
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
Cc: Ahmet
Subject: Stus-List Low viscosity Epoxy was Re: Subject: Re: Keel repair

Not not hijack this tread, I changed the subject. Since we seem to have epoxy 
experts here.

I am trying to take out some slight unevenness from the bottom of my bilge so 
that my keel bolt washers have an even contact.
 Can I use some low viscosity epoxy, just pour it into the bilge, probably dam 
of the area around the keel bolt with some tape, and let gravity do the 
leveling.
We are talking maybe 1/4 in thickness at the highest point.

I was originally thinking of using Marine-Tex but there are some areas which 
are a bit awkward to get to.


The issue is that At 200 lbs-ft the clamping force is about 12,000 lbs. So I 
need something that will not crumble under the pressure.

So the problem is to be low viscosity yet high compression strength.
Thank you
Ahmet
C&C 25
Boston, MA

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Re: Stus-List Low viscosity Epoxy was Re: Subject: Re: Keel repair

[Josh Muckley via CnC-List]

The best way to get a very level and flat surface is to use thin epoxy...
But then it may squish or flow out and allow for voids.  Besides that, you
MAY want to create a damn around the keel bolts.  I don't think crumbling
is going to be a problem.  The 12000 psi coming from the keel bolts is
"pounds per square inch" .  With a backer of stainless washer and G10
you're going to be spreading the load considerablythat is what the
backers are for.

As mentioned here before the west system epoxy compression stress is 11000
psi.  Pretty close to 12000 even before spreading the load.  Even if your
backers were only 2x2" you'd be down to 3000 psi on the epoxy.  I expect
that the G10 will be 3-4 inches wide and as long as possible (~10" or
more).  12000 divided by 40 square inches is only 300 psi.

Josh Muckley
S/V Sea Hawk
1989 C&C 37+
Solomons, MD
Not not hijack this tread, I changed the subject. Since we seem to have
epoxy experts here.

I am trying to take out some slight unevenness from the bottom of my bilge
so that my keel bolt washers have an even contact.
 Can I use some low viscosity epoxy, just pour it into the bilge, probably
dam of the area around the keel bolt with some tape, and let gravity do the
leveling.
We are talking maybe 1/4 in thickness at the highest point.

I was originally thinking of using Marine-Tex but there are some areas
which are a bit awkward to get to.


The issue is that At 200 lbs-ft the clamping force is about 12,000 lbs. So
I need something that will not crumble under the pressure.

So the problem is to be low viscosity yet high compression strength.
Thank you
Ahmet
C&C 25
Boston, MA


On Tue, Nov 24, 2015 at 9:08 AM, Dave Syer via CnC-List <
cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote:

> In my case, was not suggesting it is superior, I just prefer to purchase
> the raw materials.   This way, I can use unfilled as a first coat, make a
> putty for the fill, and laminate at the end.   Same epoxy, sometimes even
> the same batch for multiple applications/jobs. YMMV.
> Dave
>
> On Tue, Nov 24, 2015 at 8:49 AM, David Knecht 
> wrote:
>
>> I really don’t understand why people think that epoxy resin thickened
>> with stuff to bring it to the consistency of putty is better to use than
>> epoxy putty designed for the purpose.  They are equally hard and equally
>> stiff.  Am I missing something?  Dave
>>
>> Aries
>> 1990 C&C 34+
>> New London, CT
>>
>>
>> On Nov 23, 2015, at 11:05 AM, Syerdave--- via CnC-List <
>> cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote:
>>
>> For lead keel repair I think I'd just "clean" it very aggressively with
>> an angle grinder and a new, very coarse disk, then immediately paint it
>> with unfilled epoxy.  While that is curing to its "B" stage, mix up a very
>> stiff batch of epoxy filled with fumed silica and chopped glass.   Fill it
>> when the first coat is gelled/tacky.  if its a huge crater, i might take
>> two layers, (and a real good look for structural damage elsewhere) apply
>> the second while the first is at its B stage.  To finish that you could lay
>> light glass cloth or better, just peel-ply on top while still pliable/wet
>> and fair it pretty well with a plastic squeegee.
>> I've never seen the aft edge of a keel fail.  In the absence of an
>> issues, I'm not sure I'd worry about that.  My 33ii has a very thin
>> trailing edge, still intact after 30 years.
>> Dave
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ___
>>
>> Email address:
>> CnC-List@cnc-list.com
>> To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go to the
>> bottom of page at:
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>>
>>
>>
>
> ___
>
> Email address:
> CnC-List@cnc-list.com
> To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go to the
> bottom of page at:
> http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com
>
>
>


-- 
---
Ahmet
*"S/V Waterdancer"* 1990 Irwin 43 CC
"Tabasco" 1973 C&C 25
Winthrop Yacht Club, Winthrop, MA / USA
---


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Re: Stus-List Update: Re: Keel attachment issues on a C&C 25

[Dennis C. via CnC-List]

There are vendors on eBay that sell various size small pieces of aluminum
and stainless plate.  I've had good service with Stoner metals out of
Colorado Springs, CO.  Quick delivery.

Here's a sample of aluminum:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/2-Pieces-1-4-X-6-ALUMINUM-6061-FLAT-BAR-8-long-250-T6511-Plate-Mill-Stock-/350850565876?hash=item51b052c6f4:m:mtGDzjUCDPKlzjM-EVU36RA

And 316 stainless (304 SS is cheaper):

http://www.ebay.com/itm/316-Stainless-Steel-Sheet-Plate-2pcs-8-x-8-x-1-4-304-sst-plate-stainless-/321795759526?hash=item4aec859da6:g:ka4AAOSw~gRVkfAI

Dennis C.
Touche' 35-1 #83
Mandeville, LA

On Tue, Nov 24, 2015 at 10:34 AM, Rick Brass via CnC-List <
cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote:

> Damn. Wish I’d thought about McMaster-Carr when I did my boat 20-some
> years ago. I paid more than $5 a plate way back then.
>
>
>
> Rick Brass
>
> Washington, NC
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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Re: Stus-List Low viscosity Epoxy was Re: Subject: Re: Keel repair

[Dennis C. via CnC-List]

Well, there aren't any absolute answers.  Some solutions are just better
than others.

I like epoxy for injecting, flowing and uneven surfaces.  It is much less
viscous than most putties.  It fills voids if you don't mix it too thick.
Like many of us listers, the best technique is to coat the adhering
surfaces with neat (unthickened) epoxy and then follow it with the
thickened epoxy.  Just last week I helped a boat owner fill a channel on
his boat where the wood core had rotted out.  We drilled a few holes on the
top of the channel and injected thickened epoxy.  We knew we had a good
cavity fill when we saw the epoxy starting to show in the next hole in
line.

I use thickened epoxy for overbored deck penetrations through core. I
usually coat the core with neat epoxy then inject thickened.

I like thickened epoxy for creating radius fillet joints.  Mix it to a
mayonnaise consistency, slop it in the joint and shape it with the backside
of a plastic spoon.  I would also use it under the keel bolt washers or
plates which started this whole discussion.

I also use marine grade vinylester putty, a lot.  Generally, I'm repairing
shallow hull or deck damage where strength is not critical.  There are two
kinds, high strength and regular.  The high strength is primarily know as a
filler for blisters and shallow spots.  The regular putty is used for
fairing and smoothing and has little strength.  Its primary advange is ease
of sanding.  I fill pinholes with marine grade glazing putty.  Generally, I
use vinylester under gelcoat.

Vinylester putty doesn't flow well.  Nor does it fill voids well.  If the
adhering surface is irregular, I try to sand or grind it to a flat or
nearly flat surface prior to applying the putty.  When I apply the putty, I
am careful to apply it using strokes in several different directions.  If
you simply swipe it on in one direction, it tends to leave voids.

I almost never use "kitty hair" vinylester products.  I find they are hard
to work with and leave lots of voids.  Like Martin, I never use automotive
grade products.

When you use any of these products, you need to be mindful of getting a
complete mixing of the product and activator while not creating a lot of
bubbles in the mix.  There are lots of little technique tips that you learn
through experience.

Dennis C.
Touche' 35-1 #83
Mandevile, LA



On Tue, Nov 24, 2015 at 12:36 PM, Ahmet via CnC-List 
wrote:

> Not not hijack this tread, I changed the subject. Since we seem to have
> epoxy experts here.
>
> I am trying to take out some slight unevenness from the bottom of my bilge
> so that my keel bolt washers have an even contact.
>  Can I use some low viscosity epoxy, just pour it into the bilge, probably
> dam of the area around the keel bolt with some tape, and let gravity do the
> leveling.
> We are talking maybe 1/4 in thickness at the highest point.
>
> I was originally thinking of using Marine-Tex but there are some areas
> which are a bit awkward to get to.
>
>
> The issue is that At 200 lbs-ft the clamping force is about 12,000 lbs. So
> I need something that will not crumble under the pressure.
>
> So the problem is to be low viscosity yet high compression strength.
> Thank you
> Ahmet
> C&C 25
> Boston, MA
>
>
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Re: Stus-List Update: Re: Keel attachment issues on a C&C 25

[Rick Taillieu via CnC-List]

Hi Ahmet,

 

Get rid of the galvanized washers now, they will corrode. The rest of your 
repair sounds fine.

If you look at the pictures of my bilge you will see that under the nuts are a 
stack-up of stainless washers.

The number of washers will depend on if you have a deep socket or not.

You don’t need lock washers, that’s what tightening to the proper torque is 
for, the 1½ inch nuts on the three large 1 inch keel studs are torqued to 350 
ft/pounds.

The ¾ inch nut on the smaller ½ inch stud at the front is torqued to 80 
ft/pounds.  Do not over-torque this one, it will break. 

 

On a different note, in your picture 11 it looks like the floor liner has been 
cut out quite a lot to access the bilge.

I’d like to see a picture of the whole area to compare it to the picture of 
mine.

 

Cheers

 

Rick Taillieu

Nemesis

'75 C&C 25  #371

Shearwater Yacht Club

Halifax, NS.

 

 

 

From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of Ahmet via 
CnC-List
Sent: November-24-15 03:10
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
Cc: Ahmet
Subject: Stus-List Update: Re: Keel attachment issues on a C&C 25

 

A few weeks ago I started a thread about the rust on my keel bolt washers 
 .

 

Today, I bit the bullet and removed one keelbolt with the boat in the water 
with a 3 ft breaker bar extended with a pipe. The nut seemed to still have the 
right torque, and came out once I applied the force in the right direction :)

 

I was able to peel off the corroded washer/backing plate with a screwdriver and 
a hammer.

 

The bolt threads were clean (pic 5) 
  . So was the nut l (pic 9) 
  . It was all stainless steel.

I did not get a chance to test the magnetism. I will do tomorrow.

 

At no point was a hint of water seepage.

 

Whatever was left as the rusted plate under the washer is in this picture 
 . It looks like an iron backing 
plate  . It is very magnetic.

 

All I had was galvanized washers. So I put the good stainless steel washer to 
the bottom added 2 galvanized washers and a galvanized lock washer and 
tightened  the nut back to approx, 200 lbs-ft 
 . 

 

Probably useless, but I put some boat-life under the stainless washer which 
probably got totally squeezed out. In the picture 
  you can not see the stainless 
washer because it is thinner and hidden behind the silicon.

 

There is a slight bulge at the base of the keel bolt. 

 

Repair plan:

I am planning to use:

*   Marine-Tex just  to flatten out the bilge area, probably max 1/4 inches 
in the deepest areas,  
*   use  a layer of 3m 4200 
*   a  4 by 4 by 1 inch G-10 board as a backing plate 
*   followed with triple 316 stainless washers.

 

Does it look like overkill ? Should I just use 1/2 inch thick G-10 boards ?

 

I will keep an eye on the galvanized washers. I am not very comfortable mixing 
galvanized with stainless.

 

Now that I have sort of an idea what is under the nuts, I will complete the job 
for the other washers when I pull the rest of the nuts out while on the dry 
next spring.

 

If someone sees something wrong in all these (besides removing the nut while in 
the water, which seems to be a very contested subject  ) please feel free to 
scold me :)

 

Thank You

Ahmet

Winthrop Yacht Club / Constitution Marina, Boston, MA

1990 Irwin 43 CC "Waterdancer"

1973 C&C 25 "Tabasco"

 

 

 

 

 

 

On Sun, Nov 8, 2015 at 11:08 PM, Josh Muckley via CnC-List 
 wrote:

Actual torque values are available on the photo album site.  

Another material which you might find handy would be G10 FRP board.  It comes 
in 1/4" and 1/2".  I can see the 1/2" working really well to act as one large 
strong back for multiple keel bolts.  Glop some very thick epoxy or some Six10 
under the board before setting it if you want.  You could use mold release on 
the bolts or the G10 board if you thought that you might want to remove either 
in the future.

Josh Muckley
S/V Sea Hawk
1989 C&C 37+
Solomons, MD

On Nov 8, 2015 10:37 PM, "Ahmet via CnC-List"  wrote:

Thanks a lot guys. I will respond in one email to all the feedback to save on 
band with.

 

Gary Kolc: Thank you that is very interesting and good to know 

 

Dave: I will follow your advise and use 4200. Most of the pictures I see have 
some kind of a sealant. Pretty much all of it will get squeezed out when the 
torque is applied anyway. I guess what is left will be whatever is on the 
uneven parts under the washer, and perhaps squeezed in into the area around the 
bolt. "70'es hot -rod fiberglass sorcery"... That about sums it up :) You are 
right they are probably original.

 

I will lay up as much fiberglass as I can without removing the nut, to add 

Stus-List Vacation Options -- Not C&C Related, But Sailing Related

[Edd Schillay via CnC-List]

Listers,

I’m heading to the caribbean next month for a much-needed vacation on a cruise 
ship. The ship is going to St. Maarten, St. Thomas, Old San Juan and, for a 
short time, Tortola. 

I’m looking for recommendations on a trustworthy sailboat (or, if I have to, 
powerboat) rental options for a day at one of the destinations. The sailing 
excursions offered through the cruise line tend to be more motor-with-the 
sail-up, don’t-touch-the-lines, booze cruises — which I’m looking to avoid. 
Instead, I’d like to just go out, sail around, snorkel, beach, etc. on my own 
schedule. 

Any suggestions? 


All the best,

Edd


Edd M. Schillay
Starship Enterprise
C&C 37+ | Sail No: NCC-1701-B
City Island, NY 
Starship Enterprise's Captain's Log 













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Stus-List Low viscosity Epoxy was Re: Subject: Re: Keel

[Dave Syer via CnC-List]

Not an expert but I would mix a thickened batch of epoxy loaded with
cab-o-sil and chopped glass, trowel it in place then set a fitted
waxed-paper wrapped piece of stiff, flat, plastic on top, bored for the
bolt holes, fitted to bilge,  and spin on the the keel bolt until you get
some squeeze out.  radius the edges of the squeeze out with a tongue
depressor or similar.   When the epoxy gels, then give it a wipe with an
acetone dampened rag, this will smooth/fair it.   After it kicks remove the
plastic piece and give it a light sand, then a coat of unfilled epoxy and
it will have a glossy, easy to clean surface.Make sure you protect the
keel bolts by wrapping it with waxed paper (several wraps).  Make sure you
prep the surface first.

Dave


Subject:
Message-ID:

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"

Not not hijack this tread, I changed the subject. Since we seem to have
epoxy experts here.

I am trying to take out some slight unevenness from the bottom of my bilge
so that my keel bolt washers have an even contact.
 Can I use some low viscosity epoxy, just pour it into the bilge, probably
dam of the area around the keel bolt with some tape, and let gravity do the
leveling.
We are talking maybe 1/4 in thickness at the highest point.
___

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Re: Stus-List Update: Re: Keel attachment issues on a C&C 25

[Ahmet via CnC-List]

Yes, I will.
Once I am on the dry and have all the right materials. The purpose of this
was to see the condition of the washers, nuts, bolts and bilge.
At least now I know that the source of all the rust were 3 ferrous backing
plates that were used, probably because of ignorance or sloppyness I don't
think they are original. This is a salvage boat.
I don't have one picture but there are 3 cutouts.
Rear Section 
Forward  Section 

Looks like the plaque is saying this is a 1973 25 hull number 5

Btw am I hull number 5 ? 

I guess I will save money on putting up the sail number :)

 *Ahmet*

*Winthrop Yacht Club / Constitution Marina, Boston, MA*

*1990 Irwin 43 CC "Waterdancer"*

*1973 C&C 25 Hull 5 "Tabasco" *





On Tue, Nov 24, 2015 at 3:56 PM, Rick Taillieu via CnC-List <
cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote:

> Hi Ahmet,
>
>
>
> Get rid of the galvanized washers now, they will corrode. The rest of your
> repair sounds fine.
>
> If you look at the pictures of my bilge you will see that under the nuts
> are a stack-up of stainless washers.
>
> The number of washers will depend on if you have a deep socket or not.
>
> You don’t need lock washers, that’s what tightening to the proper torque
> is for, the 1½ inch nuts on the three large 1 inch keel studs are torqued
> to 350 ft/pounds.
>
> The ¾ inch nut on the smaller ½ inch stud at the front is torqued to 80
> ft/pounds.  *Do not over-torque this one, it will break*.
>
>
>
> On a different note, in your picture 11 it looks like the floor liner has
> been cut out quite a lot to access the bilge.
>
> I’d like to see a picture of the whole area to compare it to the picture
> of mine.
>
>
>
> Cheers
>
>
>
> Rick Taillieu
>
> Nemesis
>
> '75 C&C 25  #371
>
> Shearwater Yacht Club
>
> Halifax, NS.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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Re: Stus-List Vacation Options -- Not C&C Related, But Sailing Related

[Danny Haughey via CnC-List]

Hi edd, in pretty sure you can do day rentals out of any of the charter 
companies on Tortola

DannyOn Nov 24, 2015 4:02 PM, Edd Schillay via CnC-List  
wrote:
>
> Listers,
>
> I’m heading to the caribbean next month for a much-needed vacation on a 
> cruise ship. The ship is going to St. Maarten, St. Thomas, Old San Juan and, 
> for a short time, Tortola. 
>
> I’m looking for recommendations on a trustworthy sailboat (or, if I have to, 
> powerboat) rental options for a day at one of the destinations. The sailing 
> excursions offered through the cruise line tend to be more motor-with-the 
> sail-up, don’t-touch-the-lines, booze cruises — which I’m looking to avoid. 
> Instead, I’d like to just go out, sail around, snorkel, beach, etc. on my own 
> schedule. 
>
> Any suggestions? 
>
>
> All the best,
>
> Edd
>
>
> Edd M. Schillay
> Starship Enterprise
> C&C 37+ | Sail No: NCC-1701-B
> City Island, NY 
> Starship Enterprise's Captain's Log
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
___

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Stus-List keel

[ahycrace--- via CnC-List]

I have a 16 part word log with pictures showing the replacement of my keel and 
keel bolts. How can I send this to Stu for possible posting. 

  Gary Kolc
  Liberty

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Re: Stus-List Vacation Options -- Not C&C Related, But Sailing Related

[Aaron Rouhi via CnC-List]

Edd,

Not sailing related but you should definitely stop by Maho Beach at the end of 
Princess Juliana Airport runway in St Marteen. There are bars on each side of a 
tiny road with flight schedules posted on a board. Just about the best place to 
watch planes land insanely close by! Here is some pictures I took few weeks ago 
(MD80, 757 and a the new  787):


http://imgur.com/a/tgvT1


The beach is a 20 minutes bus ride (route buses, costs about $2.5 per person) 
from the cruise terminal.

Cheers,
Aaron R.
Admiral Maggie,
1979 C&C 30 MK1 #540
Annapolis, MD



From: CnC-List  on behalf of Edd Schillay via 
CnC-List 
Sent: Tuesday, November 24, 2015 4:02 PM
To: C&C List
Cc: Edd Schillay
Subject: Stus-List Vacation Options -- Not C&C Related, But Sailing Related

Listers,

I'm heading to the caribbean next month for a much-needed vacation on a cruise 
ship. The ship is going to St. Maarten, St. Thomas, Old San Juan and, for a 
short time, Tortola.

I'm looking for recommendations on a trustworthy sailboat (or, if I have to, 
powerboat) rental options for a day at one of the destinations. The sailing 
excursions offered through the cruise line tend to be more motor-with-the 
sail-up, don't-touch-the-lines, booze cruises - which I'm looking to avoid. 
Instead, I'd like to just go out, sail around, snorkel, beach, etc. on my own 
schedule.

Any suggestions?


All the best,

Edd


Edd M. Schillay
Starship Enterprise
C&C 37+ | Sail No: NCC-1701-B
City Island, NY
Starship Enterprise's Captain's Log
[http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-NIZSRe4Xzs4/VkZNBP8CiRI/CZU/RSRVCXADISI/s400/IMG_1152.JPG]

STARSHIP ENTERPRISE (NCC-1701-B) -- C&C 37+
CAPTAIN'S LOG STARSHIP ENTERPRISE NCC-1701-B (C&C 37+) A running Captain's Log 
of the sailing and racing yacht "Starship Enterprise"
Read more...














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Re: Stus-List keel

[Stu via CnC-List]

Gary and others:

If you have documentation either in a Word  .doc or .docx or a PDF file, 
send them to me via email and I will do my best to post them.


Stu
p.s. since I will be on the road soon and not knowing what type of internet 
connection I will have, it might take a day or two.


-Original Message- 
From: ahycrace--- via CnC-List

Sent: Tuesday, November 24, 2015 6:39 PM
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
Cc: ahycr...@cox.net
Subject: Stus-List keel

I have a 16 part word log with pictures showing the replacement of my keel 
and keel bolts. How can I send this to Stu for possible posting.


 Gary Kolc
 Liberty

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-
No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - 
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Re: Stus-List keel

[Ahmet via CnC-List]

I would suggest convert it to pdf (save as pdf, or print to pdf)
There is a images section on the C&C group site, otherwise, temporarily you
can email it to me (ah...@sailnomad.com) and I can add it to my images
website.
Ahmet

On Tue, Nov 24, 2015 at 6:39 PM, ahycrace--- via CnC-List <
cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote:

> I have a 16 part word log with pictures showing the replacement of my keel
> and keel bolts. How can I send this to Stu for possible posting.
>
>   Gary Kolc
>   Liberty
>
> ___
>
> Email address:
> CnC-List@cnc-list.com
> To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go to the
> bottom of page at:
> http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com
>
>


-- 
---
Ahmet
*"S/V Waterdancer"* 1990 Irwin 43 CC
"Tabasco" 1973 C&C 25
Winthrop Yacht Club, Winthrop, MA / USA
---
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Re: Stus-List keel

[ahycrace--- via CnC-List]

Ahmet
  I sent the log to Stu  as a .doc. wish I knew more about this 
stuff but that should work.

Gary
 Ahmet via CnC-List  wrote: 
> I would suggest convert it to pdf (save as pdf, or print to pdf)
> There is a images section on the C&C group site, otherwise, temporarily you
> can email it to me (ah...@sailnomad.com) and I can add it to my images
> website.
> Ahmet
> 
> On Tue, Nov 24, 2015 at 6:39 PM, ahycrace--- via CnC-List <
> cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote:
> 
> > I have a 16 part word log with pictures showing the replacement of my keel
> > and keel bolts. How can I send this to Stu for possible posting.
> >
> >   Gary Kolc
> >   Liberty
> >
> > ___
> >
> > Email address:
> > CnC-List@cnc-list.com
> > To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go to the
> > bottom of page at:
> > http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com
> >
> >
> 
> 
> -- 
> ---
> Ahmet
> *"S/V Waterdancer"* 1990 Irwin 43 CC
> "Tabasco" 1973 C&C 25
> Winthrop Yacht Club, Winthrop, MA / USA
> ---


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Re: Stus-List Update: Re: Keel attachment issues on a C&C 25

[Rick Taillieu via CnC-List]

Ahmet,

 

Yes, it looks like yours is hull # 5, built in 1973.  I’ve seen hull # 1 in the 
Toronto, Ontario area and I believe it was #2 or #3 at Prince Edward Yacht Club 
in Picton, Ontario.

Hull #1 has teak trim around the cut-out on the transom for the tiller where 
mine has/had a plastic trim piece.

The steel backing plates probably were original.  

It looks like your floor liner was cut out at the aft end so the entire bilge 
was accessible, mine has two separate cut-outs for the back two bolts.

 

Rick Taillieu

Nemesis

'75 C&C 25  #371

Shearwater Yacht Club

Halifax, NS.

 

 

 

From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of Ahmet via 
CnC-List
Sent: November-24-15 19:00
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
Cc: Ahmet
Subject: Re: Stus-List Update: Re: Keel attachment issues on a C&C 25

 

Yes, I will. 

Once I am on the dry and have all the right materials. The purpose of this was 
to see the condition of the washers, nuts, bolts and bilge.

At least now I know that the source of all the rust were 3 ferrous backing 
plates that were used, probably because of ignorance or sloppyness I don't 
think they are original. This is a salvage boat.

I don't have one picture but there are 3 cutouts.  

Rear Section  

Forward    Section

 

Looks like the plaque is saying this is a 1973 25 hull number 5 

 

Btw am I hull number 5 ?  

 

I guess I will save money on putting up the sail number :)

 

 Ahmet

Winthrop Yacht Club / Constitution Marina, Boston, MA

1990 Irwin 43 CC "Waterdancer"

1973 C&C 25 Hull 5 "Tabasco" 

 

 

 

On Tue, Nov 24, 2015 at 3:56 PM, Rick Taillieu via CnC-List 
 wrote:

Hi Ahmet,

 

Get rid of the galvanized washers now, they will corrode. The rest of your 
repair sounds fine.

If you look at the pictures of my bilge you will see that under the nuts are a 
stack-up of stainless washers.

The number of washers will depend on if you have a deep socket or not.

You don’t need lock washers, that’s what tightening to the proper torque is 
for, the 1½ inch nuts on the three large 1 inch keel studs are torqued to 350 
ft/pounds.

The ¾ inch nut on the smaller ½ inch stud at the front is torqued to 80 
ft/pounds.  Do not over-torque this one, it will break. 

 

On a different note, in your picture 11 it looks like the floor liner has been 
cut out quite a lot to access the bilge.

I’d like to see a picture of the whole area to compare it to the picture of 
mine.

 

Cheers

 

Rick Taillieu

Nemesis

'75 C&C 25  #371

Shearwater Yacht Club

Halifax, NS.

 

 

 

 

  _  

No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 2015.0.6176 / Virus Database: 4460/11058 - Release Date: 11/24/15

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Re: Stus-List Update: Re: Keel attachment issues on a C&C 25

[ahycrace--- via CnC-List]

Ahmet

  If there is oil or grease on the threads of the bolt you should 
reduce the torque by aprox 10%.  Torque numbers are given assuming threads are 
dry. Using lube would cause an over tightened condition.
   
  Gary
  
--- Rick Taillieu via CnC-List  wrote: 
> Ahmet,
> 
>  
> 
> Yes, it looks like yours is hull # 5, built in 1973.  I’ve seen hull # 1 in 
> the Toronto, Ontario area and I believe it was #2 or #3 at Prince Edward 
> Yacht Club in Picton, Ontario.
> 
> Hull #1 has teak trim around the cut-out on the transom for the tiller where 
> mine has/had a plastic trim piece.
> 
> The steel backing plates probably were original.  
> 
> It looks like your floor liner was cut out at the aft end so the entire bilge 
> was accessible, mine has two separate cut-outs for the back two bolts.
> 
>  
> 
> Rick Taillieu
> 
> Nemesis
> 
> '75 C&C 25  #371
> 
> Shearwater Yacht Club
> 
> Halifax, NS.
> 
>  
> 
>  
> 
>  
> 
> From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of Ahmet via 
> CnC-List
> Sent: November-24-15 19:00
> To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
> Cc: Ahmet
> Subject: Re: Stus-List Update: Re: Keel attachment issues on a C&C 25
> 
>  
> 
> Yes, I will. 
> 
> Once I am on the dry and have all the right materials. The purpose of this 
> was to see the condition of the washers, nuts, bolts and bilge.
> 
> At least now I know that the source of all the rust were 3 ferrous backing 
> plates that were used, probably because of ignorance or sloppyness I don't 
> think they are original. This is a salvage boat.
> 
> I don't have one picture but there are 3 cutouts.  
> 
> Rear Section  
> 
> Forward    Section
> 
>  
> 
> Looks like the plaque is saying this is a 1973 25 hull number 5 
> 
>  
> 
> Btw am I hull number 5 ?  
> 
>  
> 
> I guess I will save money on putting up the sail number :)
> 
>  
> 
>  Ahmet
> 
> Winthrop Yacht Club / Constitution Marina, Boston, MA
> 
> 1990 Irwin 43 CC "Waterdancer"
> 
> 1973 C&C 25 Hull 5 "Tabasco" 
> 
>  
> 
>  
> 
>  
> 
> On Tue, Nov 24, 2015 at 3:56 PM, Rick Taillieu via CnC-List 
>  wrote:
> 
> Hi Ahmet,
> 
>  
> 
> Get rid of the galvanized washers now, they will corrode. The rest of your 
> repair sounds fine.
> 
> If you look at the pictures of my bilge you will see that under the nuts are 
> a stack-up of stainless washers.
> 
> The number of washers will depend on if you have a deep socket or not.
> 
> You don’t need lock washers, that’s what tightening to the proper torque is 
> for, the 1½ inch nuts on the three large 1 inch keel studs are torqued to 350 
> ft/pounds.
> 
> The ¾ inch nut on the smaller ½ inch stud at the front is torqued to 80 
> ft/pounds.  Do not over-torque this one, it will break. 
> 
>  
> 
> On a different note, in your picture 11 it looks like the floor liner has 
> been cut out quite a lot to access the bilge.
> 
> I’d like to see a picture of the whole area to compare it to the picture of 
> mine.
> 
>  
> 
> Cheers
> 
>  
> 
> Rick Taillieu
> 
> Nemesis
> 
> '75 C&C 25  #371
> 
> Shearwater Yacht Club
> 
> Halifax, NS.
> 
>  
> 
>  
> 
>  
> 
>  
> 
>   _  
> 
> No virus found in this message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> Version: 2015.0.6176 / Virus Database: 4460/11058 - Release Date: 11/24/15
>

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Re: Stus-List Vacation Options -- Not C&C Related, But Sailing Related

[Edd Schillay via CnC-List]

Aaron,

Been there. Absolutely amazing spot. 


All the best,

Edd

---
Edd M. Schillay
Starship Enterprise
NCC-1701-B
C&C 37+ | City Island, NY
www.StarshipSailing.com
---
914.332.4400  | Office
914.774.9767  | Mobile
---
Sent via iPhone 6
iPhone. iTypos. iApologize

On Nov 24, 2015, at 6:51 PM, Aaron Rouhi via CnC-List  
wrote:

Edd,

Not sailing related but you should definitely stop by Maho Beach at the end of 
Princess Juliana Airport runway in St Marteen. There are bars on each side of a 
tiny road with flight schedules posted on a board. Just about the best place to 
watch planes land insanely close by! Here is some pictures I took few weeks ago 
(MD80, 757 and a the new  787):


http://imgur.com/a/tgvT1

The beach is a 20 minutes bus ride (route buses, costs about $2.5 per person) 
from the cruise terminal. 

Cheers,
Aaron R.
Admiral Maggie,
1979 C&C 30 MK1 #540
Annapolis, MD


From: CnC-List  on behalf of Edd Schillay via 
CnC-List 
Sent: Tuesday, November 24, 2015 4:02 PM
To: C&C List
Cc: Edd Schillay
Subject: Stus-List Vacation Options -- Not C&C Related, But Sailing Related
 
Listers,

I’m heading to the caribbean next month for a much-needed vacation on a cruise 
ship. The ship is going to St. Maarten, St. Thomas, Old San Juan and, for a 
short time, Tortola. 

I’m looking for recommendations on a trustworthy sailboat (or, if I have to, 
powerboat) rental options for a day at one of the destinations. The sailing 
excursions offered through the cruise line tend to be more motor-with-the 
sail-up, don’t-touch-the-lines, booze cruises — which I’m looking to avoid. 
Instead, I’d like to just go out, sail around, snorkel, beach, etc. on my own 
schedule. 

Any suggestions? 


All the best,

Edd


Edd M. Schillay
Starship Enterprise


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Stus-List Epoxy fillers and other stuff...

[Dave via CnC-List]

Glass strands (various lengths from milled fibres to chopped strands)- hard to 
fair but strong - structural.
Fumed silica - cab-o-sil - this is a colloidal filler, it keeps the epoxy from 
flowing.  This is not the same thing as making it 'thicker'  - glass will do 
that, but without silica, the reain can still run, fillers can still sag.  You 
need silica to make putty.The stiffness of the mix will vary - is this for 
coating, laminating, adhesion with gap filling, fairing, structural filling?
Micro balloons - fillers with various degrees of fair-ability.  Different 
materials.
Talc - cheap-ass filler used in bondo and 'cow flap' polyester used in our 
c&cs.  

Peel ply - a nylon material that is porous to epoxy that can be lifted off 
after cure.  Leaves a finished surface.  (More significant in vaccum bagging).  
 Nylon taffeta from the fabric store works. 

Acetone can be used on a cloth to help shape 'b stage' epoxy.  Isopropyl 
alcohol for clean up (a challenge)

Waxed paper or 'tack tape' works as a release. 

I welcome critiques or additions  Lots of good info on the gougeon site and 
many others .

Great stuff to experiment with.

Dave 


Sent from my iPhone
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Re: Stus-List Epoxy fillers and other stuff...

[Martin DeYoung via CnC-List]

>... Talc - cheap-ass filler used in bondo and 'cow flap' polyester used in our 
>c&cs.

Is "cow flap" polyester the same orange, hard filler used by Bruckmann's in the 
early 70's?  I have heard it called "bog".

Many of the failed balsa areas in Calypso's deck were bordered by the orange 
"bog" filler.  Water intrusion from one place would migrate through cracks in 
the bog to many other places.

Back in 1998 we repaired hull fractures (actually leaking sea water into the 
bilge) caused by the forward keel stub's bog failing to prevent flexing.  My 
best guess is 28 years of hard sailing made harder by the use of hydraulic back 
stay tensioners stressed the solid glass layup to fracture.  Sea water found 
the path into the bilge through the cracked bog filler.

The 1998/99 repair was to grind out all the bog, re-laminate inside and out, 
and finish up with much less epoxy filler.  After looking at the C&C build 
drawings for the early 43's I noticed C&C/Bruckmann's added extra structure 
forward from the mast step to stiffen this area.  We will be adding something 
similar during the current deck restoration project.

Martin DeYoung
Calypso
1971 C&C 43
Seattle


-Original Message-
From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of Dave via 
CnC-List
Sent: Tuesday, November 24, 2015 5:11 PM
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
Cc: Dave
Subject: Stus-List Epoxy fillers and other stuff...

Glass strands (various lengths from milled fibres to chopped strands)- hard to 
fair but strong - structural.
Fumed silica - cab-o-sil - this is a colloidal filler, it keeps the epoxy from 
flowing.  This is not the same thing as making it 'thicker'  - glass will do 
that, but without silica, the reain can still run, fillers can still sag.  You 
need silica to make putty.The stiffness of the mix will vary - is this for 
coating, laminating, adhesion with gap filling, fairing, structural filling?
Micro balloons - fillers with various degrees of fair-ability.  Different 
materials.
Talc - cheap-ass filler used in bondo and 'cow flap' polyester used in our 
c&cs.  

Peel ply - a nylon material that is porous to epoxy that can be lifted off 
after cure.  Leaves a finished surface.  (More significant in vaccum bagging).  
 Nylon taffeta from the fabric store works. 

Acetone can be used on a cloth to help shape 'b stage' epoxy.  Isopropyl 
alcohol for clean up (a challenge)

Waxed paper or 'tack tape' works as a release. 

I welcome critiques or additions  Lots of good info on the gougeon site and 
many others .

Great stuff to experiment with.

Dave 


Sent from my iPhone
___

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Re: Stus-List Update: Re: Keel attachment issues on a C&C 25

[Ahmet via CnC-List]

I put a spray of PB blaster on the treads. I did not have a torque wrench
so I guestimated it. I had a 3 ft of a leverage, and I definitely did not
push with 100lbs. I suspect I have 150-200 lbs-ft on it.
I located one today, so I may redo it in a week or so with the square
washers G10 etc.
It is the very center bolt, so I am less worried to do it on the water.
However, I will wait for spring time to do the others.
Ahmet

On Tue, Nov 24, 2015 at 7:49 PM, ahycrace--- via CnC-List <
cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote:

> Ahmet
>
>   If there is oil or grease on the threads of the bolt you should
> reduce the torque by aprox 10%.  Torque numbers are given assuming threads
> are dry. Using lube would cause an over tightened condition.
>
>   Gary
>
> --- Rick Taillieu via CnC-List  wrote:
> > Ahmet,
> >
> >
> >
> > Yes, it looks like yours is hull # 5, built in 1973.  I’ve seen hull # 1
> in the Toronto, Ontario area and I believe it was #2 or #3 at Prince Edward
> Yacht Club in Picton, Ontario.
> >
> > Hull #1 has teak trim around the cut-out on the transom for the tiller
> where mine has/had a plastic trim piece.
> >
> > The steel backing plates probably were original.
> >
> > It looks like your floor liner was cut out at the aft end so the entire
> bilge was accessible, mine has two separate cut-outs for the back two bolts.
> >
> >
> >
> > Rick Taillieu
> >
> > Nemesis
> >
> > '75 C&C 25  #371
> >
> > Shearwater Yacht Club
> >
> > Halifax, NS.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of
> Ahmet via CnC-List
> > Sent: November-24-15 19:00
> > To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
> > Cc: Ahmet
> > Subject: Re: Stus-List Update: Re: Keel attachment issues on a C&C 25
> >
> >
> >
> > Yes, I will.
> >
> > Once I am on the dry and have all the right materials. The purpose of
> this was to see the condition of the washers, nuts, bolts and bilge.
> >
> > At least now I know that the source of all the rust were 3 ferrous
> backing plates that were used, probably because of ignorance or sloppyness
> I don't think they are original. This is a salvage boat.
> >
> > I don't have one picture but there are 3 cutouts.
> >
> > Rear Section 
> >
> > Forward    Section
> >
> >
> >
> > Looks like the plaque is saying this is a 1973 25 hull number 5
> >
> >
> >
> > Btw am I hull number 5 ? 
> >
> >
> >
> > I guess I will save money on putting up the sail number :)
> >
> >
> >
> >  Ahmet
> >
> > Winthrop Yacht Club / Constitution Marina, Boston, MA
> >
> > 1990 Irwin 43 CC "Waterdancer"
> >
> > 1973 C&C 25 Hull 5 "Tabasco"
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On Tue, Nov 24, 2015 at 3:56 PM, Rick Taillieu via CnC-List <
> cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote:
> >
> > Hi Ahmet,
> >
> >
> >
> > Get rid of the galvanized washers now, they will corrode. The rest of
> your repair sounds fine.
> >
> > If you look at the pictures of my bilge you will see that under the nuts
> are a stack-up of stainless washers.
> >
> > The number of washers will depend on if you have a deep socket or not.
> >
> > You don’t need lock washers, that’s what tightening to the proper torque
> is for, the 1½ inch nuts on the three large 1 inch keel studs are torqued
> to 350 ft/pounds.
> >
> > The ¾ inch nut on the smaller ½ inch stud at the front is torqued to 80
> ft/pounds.  Do not over-torque this one, it will break.
> >
> >
> >
> > On a different note, in your picture 11 it looks like the floor liner
> has been cut out quite a lot to access the bilge.
> >
> > I’d like to see a picture of the whole area to compare it to the picture
> of mine.
> >
> >
> >
> > Cheers
> >
> >
> >
> > Rick Taillieu
> >
> > Nemesis
> >
> > '75 C&C 25  #371
> >
> > Shearwater Yacht Club
> >
> > Halifax, NS.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >   _
> >
> > No virus found in this message.
> > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> > Version: 2015.0.6176 / Virus Database: 4460/11058 - Release Date:
> 11/24/15
> >
>
> ___
>
> Email address:
> CnC-List@cnc-list.com
> To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go to the
> bottom of page at:
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>
>


-- 
---
Ahmet
*"S/V Waterdancer"* 1990 Irwin 43 CC
"Tabasco" 1973 C&C 25
Winthrop Yacht Club, Winthrop, MA / USA
---
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Re: Stus-List Update: Re: Keel attachment issues on a C&C 25

[Ahmet via CnC-List]

I suspect, you are right. 40+ years of corrosion.
 Was it lack of material knowlege ?, cutting costs on hardware ?, I was
trying to figure out what the material is. It is very magnetic, So I
presume it was just simple steel.  The nuts and bolts are in good shape
after all.

Nonetheless, I love Tabasco, and once these simple kinks are fixed, she
will probably outlast me :)

Rick said:

>The steel backing plates probably were original.


Ahmet
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Re: Stus-List Epoxy fillers and other stuff...

[Ahmet via CnC-List]

Thank You, that is a lot of information condensed.
I have a challenge. Whoever built my hull # 5, missed the sump location by
an inch. So I need to extend the sump wall horizontally.
I would thing that I would start wetting structural mat and go horizontally
out from where the exposed nut is. It is basically a 4 inch vertical wall
than needs to be filled in.
The situation is in PIC 3 
 Here is sort of a drawing I
have.
What might  be the best way to build up the vertical wall that will
eventually withstand the pressure of the nut besides just keep on adding
cloth until I have the desired width ?
Ahmet

On Tue, Nov 24, 2015 at 8:10 PM, Dave via CnC-List 
wrote:

> Glass strands (various lengths from milled fibres to chopped strands)-
> hard to fair but strong - structural.
> Fumed silica - cab-o-sil - this is a colloidal filler, it keeps the epoxy
> from flowing.  This is not the same thing as making it 'thicker'  - glass
> will do that, but without silica, the reain can still run, fillers can
> still sag.  You need silica to make putty.The stiffness of the mix will
> vary - is this for coating, laminating, adhesion with gap filling, fairing,
> structural filling?
> Micro balloons - fillers with various degrees of fair-ability.  Different
> materials.
> Talc - cheap-ass filler used in bondo and 'cow flap' polyester used in our
> c&cs.
>
> Peel ply - a nylon material that is porous to epoxy that can be lifted off
> after cure.  Leaves a finished surface.  (More significant in vaccum
> bagging).   Nylon taffeta from the fabric store works.
>
> Acetone can be used on a cloth to help shape 'b stage' epoxy.  Isopropyl
> alcohol for clean up (a challenge)
>
> Waxed paper or 'tack tape' works as a release.
>
> I welcome critiques or additions  Lots of good info on the gougeon
> site and many others .
>
> Great stuff to experiment with.
>
> Dave
>
>
> Sent from my iPhone
> ___
>
> Email address:
> CnC-List@cnc-list.com
> To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go to the
> bottom of page at:
> http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com
>
>


-- 
---
Ahmet
*"S/V Waterdancer"* 1990 Irwin 43 CC
"Tabasco" 1973 C&C 25
Winthrop Yacht Club, Winthrop, MA / USA
---
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Re: Stus-List Epoxy fillers and other stuff...

[Marek Dziedzic via CnC-List]

If I may add to that exhaustive list of advice, 

ascetic acid (vinegar) can be used for cleaning epoxy, before it hardens. It 
gets into reaction with epoxy resin monomers and neutralises them in the 
process. So if you are doing any epoxy work it helps to have a bottle with 
vinegar and a rag handy for cleaning hands, tools or spilled resin. This works 
only if the epoxy has not set yet.

Marek

Sent from Mail for Windows 10



From: Martin DeYoung via CnC-List
Sent: November 24, 2015 21:35
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
Cc: Martin DeYoung
Subject: Re: Stus-List Epoxy fillers and other stuff...


>... Talc - cheap-ass filler used in bondo and 'cow flap' polyester used in our 
>c&cs.

Is "cow flap" polyester the same orange, hard filler used by Bruckmann's in the 
early 70's?  I have heard it called "bog".

Many of the failed balsa areas in Calypso's deck were bordered by the orange 
"bog" filler.  Water intrusion from one place would migrate through cracks in 
the bog to many other places.

Back in 1998 we repaired hull fractures (actually leaking sea water into the 
bilge) caused by the forward keel stub's bog failing to prevent flexing.  My 
best guess is 28 years of hard sailing made harder by the use of hydraulic back 
stay tensioners stressed the solid glass layup to fracture.  Sea water found 
the path into the bilge through the cracked bog filler.

The 1998/99 repair was to grind out all the bog, re-laminate inside and out, 
and finish up with much less epoxy filler.  After looking at the C&C build 
drawings for the early 43's I noticed C&C/Bruckmann's added extra structure 
forward from the mast step to stiffen this area.  We will be adding something 
similar during the current deck restoration project.

Martin DeYoung
Calypso
1971 C&C 43
Seattle


-Original Message-
From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of Dave via 
CnC-List
Sent: Tuesday, November 24, 2015 5:11 PM
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
Cc: Dave
Subject: Stus-List Epoxy fillers and other stuff...

Glass strands (various lengths from milled fibres to chopped strands)- hard to 
fair but strong - structural.
Fumed silica - cab-o-sil - this is a colloidal filler, it keeps the epoxy from 
flowing.  This is not the same thing as making it 'thicker'  - glass will do 
that, but without silica, the reain can still run, fillers can still sag.  You 
need silica to make putty.    The stiffness of the mix will vary - is this for 
coating, laminating, adhesion with gap filling, fairing, structural filling?
Micro balloons - fillers with various degrees of fair-ability.  Different 
materials.
Talc - cheap-ass filler used in bondo and 'cow flap' polyester used in our 
c&cs.  

Peel ply - a nylon material that is porous to epoxy that can be lifted off 
after cure.  Leaves a finished surface.  (More significant in vaccum bagging).  
 Nylon taffeta from the fabric store works. 

Acetone can be used on a cloth to help shape 'b stage' epoxy.  Isopropyl 
alcohol for clean up (a challenge)

Waxed paper or 'tack tape' works as a release. 

I welcome critiques or additions  Lots of good info on the gougeon site and 
many others .

Great stuff to experiment with.

Dave 


Sent from my iPhone
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Re: Stus-List Vacation Options -- Not C&C Related, But Sailing Related

[Sailnomad via CnC-List]

I don't want to be a party pooped but I really don't think you have time to
do real bareboat sailing. Most cruise ships get there in the morning. By
the time you get out, go to the charter company, get the boat , it is noon.
You  have to return by 5 to make the ship. So it really is not worth to pay
the $500+ for a few hours of sailing.
Just let the little excursion companies take you out and enjoy not to have
to watch out for the rerfs.
My 02c
Ahmet
On Nov 24, 2015 6:52 PM, "Aaron Rouhi via CnC-List" 
wrote:

> Edd,
>
> Not sailing related but you should definitely stop by Maho Beach at the
> end of Princess Juliana Airport runway in St Marteen. There are bars on
> each side of a tiny road with flight schedules posted on a board. Just
> about the best place to watch planes land insanely close by! Here is
> some pictures I took few weeks ago (MD80, 757 and a the new  787):
>
>
> http://imgur.com/a/tgvT1
>
>
> The beach is a 20 minutes bus ride (route buses, costs about $2.5 per
> person) from the cruise terminal.
>
> Cheers,
> Aaron R.
> Admiral Maggie,
> 1979 C&C 30 MK1 #540
> Annapolis, MD
>
>
> --
> *From:* CnC-List  on behalf of Edd
> Schillay via CnC-List 
> *Sent:* Tuesday, November 24, 2015 4:02 PM
> *To:* C&C List
> *Cc:* Edd Schillay
> *Subject:* Stus-List Vacation Options -- Not C&C Related, But Sailing
> Related
>
> Listers,
>
> I’m heading to the caribbean next month for a much-needed vacation on a
> cruise ship. The ship is going to St. Maarten, St. Thomas, Old San Juan
> and, for a short time, Tortola.
>
> I’m looking for recommendations on a trustworthy sailboat (or, if I have
> to, powerboat) rental options for a day at one of the destinations. The
> sailing excursions offered through the cruise line tend to be more
> motor-with-the sail-up, don’t-touch-the-lines, booze cruises — which I’m
> looking to avoid. Instead, I’d like to just go out, sail around, snorkel,
> beach, etc. on my own schedule.
>
> Any suggestions?
>
>
> All the best,
>
> Edd
>
>
> Edd M. Schillay
> Starship Enterprise
> C&C 37+ | Sail No: NCC-1701-B
> City Island, NY
> Starship Enterprise's Captain's Log 
> 
> STARSHIP ENTERPRISE (NCC-1701-B) -- C&C 37+
> CAPTAIN'S LOG STARSHIP ENTERPRISE NCC-1701-B (C&C 37+) A running Captain's
> Log of the sailing and racing yacht "Starship Enterprise"
> Read more... 
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ___
>
> Email address:
> CnC-List@cnc-list.com
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> bottom of page at:
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>
>
>
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Re: Stus-List Vacation Options -- Not C&C Related, But Sailing Related

[Leslie Paal via CnC-List]

Unfortunately, you will not have enough time to do a real day rental.  Ships 
arrive in the morning, takes some time to get off and go anywhere from the 
terminal.  On the other end, you want to be back at the terminal with a bit of 
margin, they can leave you behind.

In most ports you can find a local outfit that have outings that match the 
cruise schedule.  Since I focused on land excursions (like renting a taxi for 
few hours) or the beach, can not help you with sailing trip info.

Good luck and be safe.

Leslie.
(likes cruising, almost as much as sailing...)


On Tue, 11/24/15, Danny Haughey via CnC-List  wrote:

 Subject: Re: Stus-List Vacation Options -- Not C&C Related, But Sailing Related
 To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
 Cc: djhaug...@juno.com
 Date: Tuesday, November 24, 2015, 3:32 PM
 
 Hi edd, in pretty sure you can do day
 rentals out of any of the charter companies on Tortola
 
 DannyOn Nov 24, 2015 4:02 PM, Edd Schillay via CnC-List
 
 wrote:
 >
 > Listers,
 >
 > I’m heading to the caribbean next month for a
 much-needed vacation on a cruise ship. The ship is going to
 St. Maarten, St. Thomas, Old San Juan and, for a short time,
 Tortola. 
 >
 > I’m looking for recommendations on a trustworthy
 sailboat (or, if I have to, powerboat) rental options for a
 day at one of the destinations. The sailing excursions
 offered through the cruise line tend to be more
 motor-with-the sail-up, don’t-touch-the-lines, booze
 cruises — which I’m looking to avoid. Instead, I’d
 like to just go out, sail around, snorkel, beach, etc. on my
 own schedule. 
 >
 > Any suggestions? 
 >
 >
 > All the best,
 >
 > Edd
 >
 >
 > Edd M. Schillay
 > Starship Enterprise
 > C&C 37+ | Sail No: NCC-1701-B
 > City Island, NY 
 > Starship Enterprise's Captain's Log
 >
 >
 >
 >
 >
 >
 >
 >
 >
 >
 >
 >
 ___
 
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