Re: Stus-List Battery charger recommendations?

[Rich Knowles]

And to increase the presumptuous factor:

The alternators that were supplied as original equipment with most small boat 
engines until recently were from 35 - 55 A with internal, single voltage output 
regulators. A good percentage of the engines were destined for use in small 
motor vessels and these alternators were adequate for that application. For our 
use, which sees greatly increased loads from, as Rick notes, radar and 
refrigeration, and lengthy battery discharge periods between charges, those 
alternators are bordering on inadequate, and certainly not as efficient and 
appropriate as higher power units with multi stage regulators. 

For sailing vessels, a central component of optimizing the electrical system 
should be upgrading the generating capacity of the charging system. This will 
involve replacing the alternator with the largest unit that can be fitted, 
taking physical restrictions, drive belt capacity and depth of pocket book into 
account. For most 20-35 HP engines, around 100A works well. There are a number 
of external regulators available that should be considered for installation as 
part of the new system. A new alternator with a multi-step regulator will 
considerably reduce the engine run time needed to replenish the batteries. 
Other devices such as wind generators and solar panels are important for long 
range travels as well to further reduce the dependency on the engine. 

For calculation purposes, I generally consider the usable capacity of batteries 
to be 30% rather than 50% of rated capacity. This stems from the fact that a 
50% discharged battery will charge to around 80% at a fairly linear rate which 
will drop significantly as the state of charge nears 100%. Trying to achieve 
the last 20% can take a long time compared to the first 30%. This will vary 
depending on battery type and condition, so my 30% figure is somewhat 
arbitrary, but fairly realistic.

A shore power fed battery charger from 20-40A will generally suffice to sustain 
loads from refrigeration, lighting and entertainment devices operating while 
the boat is alongside, and also provide enough power to replenish the 
batteries. Again, a multi-step unit designed for marine use should be chosen. 
There are lots of good marine chargers on the market. 

I note that non-marine AC chargers may not completely isolate the input from 
the output, a potentially dangerous situation on the water, and should be 
avoided. 

As Rick notes, designing an efficient, reliable electrical system is complex. 

It's snowing again. G!

Rich Knowles
INDIGO - LF38
Halifax, NS


> On Dec 17, 2013, at 20:45, "Rick Brass"  wrote:
> 
> Curtis;
>  
> At the risk of being presumptuous, I think you have the cart before the horse.
>  
> If your intent is extended cruising – particularly offshore cruising where 
> you will not be using your engine for power (and to recharge the batteries) 
> every day – you will first need to think about the systems you have on board 
> and how much power they will draw. Refrigeration is a major draw. Radar? 
> Autopilot? What instruments? What lights? Power for entertainment like radio 
> or TV?  Small things like a 12 v electric coffee maker or a microwave draw a 
> shocking amount of power out of your batteries.
>  
> Once you know how many amp hours you will use on average, you can figure out 
> how many additional batteries you need, what type, and where to put them. My 
> average consumption right now is under 100 amp-hours/day. But I plan to run 
> refrigeration (45 more AH) and to anchor out for extended periods. So my 
> house bank is 4 deep cycle group 27 batteries with 460 AH capacity. That 
> gives 230 usable AH (50% discharge) and should let me go for 2 days between 
> charges. In addition I have a group 29 marine starting battery as a second 
> bank, and a deep cycle group 24 under the v-berth to power the head and the 
> anchor windlass.
>  
> The 400+ AH house bank dictates at least a 40amp, multi bank charger. I have 
> an older Xantrex 40+ wired to the house and starting bank. There is a solar 
> charger for the group 24 battery that is OK for now, but I plan to install an 
> ACR that will top up the charge on that battery when I’m hooked to shore 
> power or running the engine.
>  
> To put 100 AH into my house bank by running the engine (with a 45 amp 
> alternator installed) will take at least 3 hours of run time – which is OK 
> when I’m traveling on the ICW but not acceptable when at anchor. SO I plan to 
> install a bank of solar panels over the Bimini, and maybe a wind generator as 
> well, to maintain the batteries at anchor.
>  
> As you can see, the process starts with determining how much power you will 
> be using each day, and that will depend on what systems you have installed 
> for cruising.
>  
> You said you had an “OEM” battery charger installed. Probably not really OEM, 
> but the question is: is it still working? If it is, spend your money on the 
> other systems 

Re: Stus-List Battery charger recommendations?

[Curtis]

Wow. You guys have gone deep with the power consumption and recharging
principles. You have open my eyes to a big project moving forward. Keep in
mind my wife and I will not need much power. Bet you have heard that before
from people starting out. HAHAh. Well wet me see what it looks like.

1) AM/FM Radio   *4 hr a week*

2) ST4000 AUTO helm *8 hrs a day*

3) Garmin echo50s (GPS) *8 hrs a day*

4) Bow and stern running lights   *8 hrs a week*

5) Spreader lights  *Almost never*

6) Mast head anchor light *(12 hours a day) LED*

7) Cabin lights *(8 hours a day) LED*

8) VHF Radio “Hand Held” *8 hrs a day*

9) VHF fixed mount *8 hrs a day scan mode weather alert*

10) Ray marine gauge “ Depth” *8 hrs a day*

11) Ray marine gauge “Wind” *8 hrs a day*

12 Ray marine gauges

13) IPOD for movies *2 hrs a day*

14) Cell phones 2 “1 droid”  “1 I phone”



We have no refrigerator

We have no t/v at this time

Toilet is a manual

In doing my research hoping to find a Energy Budget work sheet in excel
format. This way I could plug in the cost of each of my power using pieces
and see what it comes up with.


On Wed, Dec 18, 2013 at 7:37 AM, Rich Knowles  wrote:

> And to increase the presumptuous factor:
>
> The alternators that were supplied as original equipment with most small
> boat engines until recently were from 35 - 55 A with internal, single
> voltage output regulators. A good percentage of the engines were destined
> for use in small motor vessels and these alternators were adequate for that
> application. For our use, which sees greatly increased loads from, as Rick
> notes, radar and refrigeration, and lengthy battery discharge periods
> between charges, those alternators are bordering on inadequate, and
> certainly not as efficient and appropriate as higher power units with multi
> stage regulators.
>
> For sailing vessels, a central component of optimizing the electrical
> system should be upgrading the generating capacity of the charging system.
> This will involve replacing the alternator with the largest unit that can
> be fitted, taking physical restrictions, drive belt capacity and depth of
> pocket book into account. For most 20-35 HP engines, around 100A works
> well. There are a number of external regulators available that should be
> considered for installation as part of the new system. A new alternator
> with a multi-step regulator will considerably reduce the engine run time
> needed to replenish the batteries. Other devices such as wind generators
> and solar panels are important for long range travels as well to further
> reduce the dependency on the engine.
>
> For calculation purposes, I generally consider the usable capacity of
> batteries to be 30% rather than 50% of rated capacity. This stems from the
> fact that a 50% discharged battery will charge to around 80% at a fairly
> linear rate which will drop significantly as the state of charge nears
> 100%. Trying to achieve the last 20% can take a long time compared to the
> first 30%. This will vary depending on battery type and condition, so my
> 30% figure is somewhat arbitrary, but fairly realistic.
>
> A shore power fed battery charger from 20-40A will generally suffice to
> sustain loads from refrigeration, lighting and entertainment devices
> operating while the boat is alongside, and also provide enough power to
> replenish the batteries. Again, a multi-step unit designed for marine use
> should be chosen. There are lots of good marine chargers on the market.
>
> I note that non-marine AC chargers may not completely isolate the input
> from the output, a potentially dangerous situation on the water, and should
> be avoided.
>
> As Rick notes, designing an efficient, reliable electrical system is
> complex.
>
> It's snowing again. G!
>
> Rich Knowles
> INDIGO - LF38
> Halifax, NS
>
>
> On Dec 17, 2013, at 20:45, "Rick Brass"  wrote:
>
> Curtis;
>
>
>
> At the risk of being presumptuous, I think you have the cart before the
> horse.
>
>
>
> If your intent is extended cruising – particularly offshore cruising where
> you will not be using your engine for power (and to recharge the batteries)
> every day – you will first need to think about the systems you have on
> board and how much power they will draw. Refrigeration is a major draw.
> Radar? Autopilot? What instruments? What lights? Power for entertainment
> like radio or TV?  Small things like a 12 v electric coffee maker or a
> microwave draw a shocking amount of power out of your batteries.
>
>
>
> Once you know how many amp hours you will use on average, you can figure
> out how many additional batteries you need, what type, and where to put
> them. My average consumption right now is under 100 amp-hours/day. But I
> plan to run refrigeration (45 more AH) and to anchor out for extended
> periods. So my house bank is 4 deep cycle group 27 batteries with 460 AH
> capacity. That gives 230 usable AH (50% discharge) and should let me go for
> 2 days between charges. In additio

Re: Stus-List Battery charger recommendations?

[Joel Aronson]

Nigel Calders book has a list.

Joel

On Wednesday, December 18, 2013, Curtis wrote:

> Wow. You guys have gone deep with the power consumption and recharging
> principles. You have open my eyes to a big project moving forward. Keep in
> mind my wife and I will not need much power. Bet you have heard that before
> from people starting out. HAHAh. Well wet me see what it looks like.
>
> 1) AM/FM Radio   *4 hr a week*
>
> 2) ST4000 AUTO helm *8 hrs a day*
>
> 3) Garmin echo50s (GPS) *8 hrs a day*
>
> 4) Bow and stern running lights   *8 hrs a week*
>
> 5) Spreader lights  *Almost never*
>
> 6) Mast head anchor light *(12 hours a day) LED*
>
> 7) Cabin lights *(8 hours a day) LED*
>
> 8) VHF Radio “Hand Held” *8 hrs a day*
>
> 9) VHF fixed mount *8 hrs a day scan mode weather alert*
>
> 10) Ray marine gauge “ Depth” *8 hrs a day*
>
> 11) Ray marine gauge “Wind” *8 hrs a day*
>
> 12 Ray marine gauges
>
> 13) IPOD for movies *2 hrs a day*
>
> 14) Cell phones 2 “1 droid”  “1 I phone”
>
>
>
> We have no refrigerator
>
> We have no t/v at this time
>
> Toilet is a manual
>
> In doing my research hoping to find a Energy Budget work sheet in excel
> format. This way I could plug in the cost of each of my power using pieces
> and see what it comes up with.
>
>
> On Wed, Dec 18, 2013 at 7:37 AM, Rich Knowles  wrote:
>
> And to increase the presumptuous factor:
>
> The alternators that were supplied as original equipment with most small
> boat engines until recently were from 35 - 55 A with internal, single
> voltage output regulators. A good percentage of the engines were destined
> for use in small motor vessels and these alternators were adequate for that
> application. For our use, which sees greatly increased loads from, as Rick
> notes, radar and refrigeration, and lengthy battery discharge periods
> between charges, those alternators are bordering on inadequate, and
> certainly not as efficient and appropriate as higher power units with multi
> stage regulators.
>
> For sailing vessels, a central component of optimizing the electrical
> system should be upgrading the generating capacity of the charging system.
> This will involve replacing the alternator with the largest unit that can
> be fitted, taking physical restrictions, drive belt capacity and depth of
> pocket book into account. For most 20-35 HP engines, around 100A works
> well. There are a number of external regulators available that should be
> considered for installation as part of the new system. A new alternator
> with a multi-step regulator will considerably reduce the engine run time
> needed to replenish the batteries. Other devices such as wind generators
> and solar panels are important for long range travels as well to further
> reduce the dependency on the engine.
>
> For calculation purposes, I generally consider the usable capacity of
> batteries to be 30% rather than 50% of rated capacity. This stems from the
> fact that a 50% discharged battery will charge to around 80% at a fairly
> linear rate which will drop significantly as the state of charge nears
> 100%. Trying to achieve the last 20% can take a long time compared to the
> first 30%. This will vary depending on battery type and condition, so my
> 30% figure is somewhat arbitrary, but fairly realistic.
>
> A shore power fed battery charger from 20-40A will generally suffice to
> sustain loads from refrigeration, lighting and entertainment devices
> operating while the boat is alongside, and also provide enough power to
> replenish the batteries. Again, a multi-step unit designed for marine use
> should be chosen. There are lots of good marine chargers on the market.
>
> I note that non-marine AC chargers may not completely isolate the input
> from the output, a potentially dangerous situation on the water, and should
> be avoided.
>
> As Rick notes, designing an efficient, reliable electrical system is
> complex.
>
> It's snowing again. G!
>
> Rich Knowles
> INDIGO - LF38
> Halifax, NS
>
>
> On Dec 17, 2013, at 20:45, "Rick Brass"  wrote:
>
> Curtis;
>
>
>
> At the risk of being presumptuous, I think you have the cart before the
> horse.
>
>
>
> If your intent is extended cruising – particularly offshore cruising where
> you will not be using your engine for power (and to recharge the batteries)
> every day – you will first need to think about the systems you have on
> board and how much power they will draw. Refrigeration is a major draw.
> Radar? Autopilot? What instruments? What lights? Power for entertainment
> like radio or TV?  Small things like a 12 v electric coffee maker or a
> microwave draw a shocking amount of power out of your batteries.
>
>
>
> On
>
>

-- 
Joel
301 541 8551
___
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Re: Stus-List Battery charger recommendations?

[Curtis]

Is this a good calculator
http://www.lifelinebatteries.com/marinesizing.php


On Wed, Dec 18, 2013 at 9:19 AM, Curtis  wrote:

> Wow. You guys have gone deep with the power consumption and recharging
> principles. You have open my eyes to a big project moving forward. Keep in
> mind my wife and I will not need much power. Bet you have heard that before
> from people starting out. HAHAh. Well wet me see what it looks like.
>
> 1) AM/FM Radio   *4 hr a week*
>
> 2) ST4000 AUTO helm *8 hrs a day*
>
> 3) Garmin echo50s (GPS) *8 hrs a day*
>
> 4) Bow and stern running lights   *8 hrs a week*
>
> 5) Spreader lights  *Almost never*
>
> 6) Mast head anchor light *(12 hours a day) LED*
>
> 7) Cabin lights *(8 hours a day) LED*
>
> 8) VHF Radio “Hand Held” *8 hrs a day*
>
> 9) VHF fixed mount *8 hrs a day scan mode weather alert*
>
> 10) Ray marine gauge “ Depth” *8 hrs a day*
>
> 11) Ray marine gauge “Wind” *8 hrs a day*
>
> 12 Ray marine gauges
>
> 13) IPOD for movies *2 hrs a day*
>
> 14) Cell phones 2 “1 droid”  “1 I phone”
>
>
>
> We have no refrigerator
>
> We have no t/v at this time
>
> Toilet is a manual
>
> In doing my research hoping to find a Energy Budget work sheet in excel
> format. This way I could plug in the cost of each of my power using pieces
> and see what it comes up with.
>
>
> On Wed, Dec 18, 2013 at 7:37 AM, Rich Knowles  wrote:
>
>> And to increase the presumptuous factor:
>>
>> The alternators that were supplied as original equipment with most small
>> boat engines until recently were from 35 - 55 A with internal, single
>> voltage output regulators. A good percentage of the engines were destined
>> for use in small motor vessels and these alternators were adequate for that
>> application. For our use, which sees greatly increased loads from, as Rick
>> notes, radar and refrigeration, and lengthy battery discharge periods
>> between charges, those alternators are bordering on inadequate, and
>> certainly not as efficient and appropriate as higher power units with multi
>> stage regulators.
>>
>> For sailing vessels, a central component of optimizing the electrical
>> system should be upgrading the generating capacity of the charging system.
>> This will involve replacing the alternator with the largest unit that can
>> be fitted, taking physical restrictions, drive belt capacity and depth of
>> pocket book into account. For most 20-35 HP engines, around 100A works
>> well. There are a number of external regulators available that should be
>> considered for installation as part of the new system. A new alternator
>> with a multi-step regulator will considerably reduce the engine run time
>> needed to replenish the batteries. Other devices such as wind generators
>> and solar panels are important for long range travels as well to further
>> reduce the dependency on the engine.
>>
>> For calculation purposes, I generally consider the usable capacity of
>> batteries to be 30% rather than 50% of rated capacity. This stems from the
>> fact that a 50% discharged battery will charge to around 80% at a fairly
>> linear rate which will drop significantly as the state of charge nears
>> 100%. Trying to achieve the last 20% can take a long time compared to the
>> first 30%. This will vary depending on battery type and condition, so my
>> 30% figure is somewhat arbitrary, but fairly realistic.
>>
>> A shore power fed battery charger from 20-40A will generally suffice to
>> sustain loads from refrigeration, lighting and entertainment devices
>> operating while the boat is alongside, and also provide enough power to
>> replenish the batteries. Again, a multi-step unit designed for marine use
>> should be chosen. There are lots of good marine chargers on the market.
>>
>> I note that non-marine AC chargers may not completely isolate the input
>> from the output, a potentially dangerous situation on the water, and should
>> be avoided.
>>
>> As Rick notes, designing an efficient, reliable electrical system is
>> complex.
>>
>> It's snowing again. G!
>>
>> Rich Knowles
>> INDIGO - LF38
>> Halifax, NS
>>
>>
>> On Dec 17, 2013, at 20:45, "Rick Brass"  wrote:
>>
>> Curtis;
>>
>>
>>
>> At the risk of being presumptuous, I think you have the cart before the
>> horse.
>>
>>
>>
>> If your intent is extended cruising – particularly offshore cruising
>> where you will not be using your engine for power (and to recharge the
>> batteries) every day – you will first need to think about the systems you
>> have on board and how much power they will draw. Refrigeration is a major
>> draw. Radar? Autopilot? What instruments? What lights? Power for
>> entertainment like radio or TV?  Small things like a 12 v electric coffee
>> maker or a microwave draw a shocking amount of power out of your batteries.
>>
>>
>>
>> Once you know how many amp hours you will use on average, you can figure
>> out how many additional batteries you need, what type, and where to put
>> them. My average consumption right now is under 100 amp-ho

Re: Stus-List Battery charger recommendations?

[Rich Knowles]

I have one Curtis. I'll send it along later today. 

Rich

> On Dec 18, 2013, at 10:19, Curtis  wrote:
> 
> In doing my research hoping to find a Energy Budget work sheet in excel 
> format. This way I could plug in the cost of each of my power using pieces 
> and see what it comes up with.
___
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Re: Stus-List Battery charger recommendations?

[Curtis]

Thanks'


On Wed, Dec 18, 2013 at 9:32 AM, Rich Knowles  wrote:

> I have one Curtis. I'll send it along later today.
>
> Rich
>
> On Dec 18, 2013, at 10:19, Curtis  wrote:
>
> In doing my research hoping to find a Energy Budget work sheet in excel
> format. This way I could plug in the cost of each of my power using pieces
> and see what it comes up with.
>
>
> ___
> This List is provided by the C&C Photo Album
> http://www.cncphotoalbum.com
> CnC-List@cnc-list.com
>
>


-- 
“Sailors, with their built in sense of order, service and discipline,
should really be running the world.” - Nicholas Monsarrat
___
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Re: Stus-List Battery charger recommendations?

[dwight]

Hi Rich

 

I am not sure what my alternator output rating is but my ammeter never shows
more than 60 and even that is not for long as it settles out to between 15
and 30 fairly quickly, like after a a minute of steaming.  If I switch from
one battery bank to the other during steaming I can sometimes notice a
slight drag on the engine (it seems to slow down a bit) but even that is
momentary (a second or 2).  My house bank is two, 6 volt deep cycle
batteries connected in series and my start bank is one Group 24 deep
cycle.they have been on the boat for 7 years continuous and have never let
me down.  I run an old 1720 Furuno radar when I need it (fog or dark) and I
run an Adler Barber in icebox refrigerator freezer.  I try to remember to
manually cycle the fridge on and off since I disconnected the thermostat and
now can't remember which wires go where to reconnect it.Last season I left
the boat unattended on the mooring for about 5 days but I forgot to turn off
the fridge.  Much to my surprise after those 5 days there was still power
left in the battery and the fridge was still cold and I have no added
insulation around the ice box yet!!  I was able to start the engine from my
start battery and recharge my house bank from the engine. Probably some
sailors use more power on a regular basis than I do but 100 amps seems like
a pretty high charge rate.  Would a 100 amp charge rate not be hard on the
cells?

 

 

  _  

From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of Rich
Knowles
Sent: December 18, 2013 8:38 AM
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
Subject: Re: Stus-List Battery charger recommendations?

 

And to increase the presumptuous factor:

 

The alternators that were supplied as original equipment with most small
boat engines until recently were from 35 - 55 A with internal, single
voltage output regulators. A good percentage of the engines were destined
for use in small motor vessels and these alternators were adequate for that
application. For our use, which sees greatly increased loads from, as Rick
notes, radar and refrigeration, and lengthy battery discharge periods
between charges, those alternators are bordering on inadequate, and
certainly not as efficient and appropriate as higher power units with multi
stage regulators. 

 

For sailing vessels, a central component of optimizing the electrical system
should be upgrading the generating capacity of the charging system. This
will involve replacing the alternator with the largest unit that can be
fitted, taking physical restrictions, drive belt capacity and depth of
pocket book into account. For most 20-35 HP engines, around 100A works well.
There are a number of external regulators available that should be
considered for installation as part of the new system. A new alternator with
a multi-step regulator will considerably reduce the engine run time needed
to replenish the batteries. Other devices such as wind generators and solar
panels are important for long range travels as well to further reduce the
dependency on the engine. 

 

For calculation purposes, I generally consider the usable capacity of
batteries to be 30% rather than 50% of rated capacity. This stems from the
fact that a 50% discharged battery will charge to around 80% at a fairly
linear rate which will drop significantly as the state of charge nears 100%.
Trying to achieve the last 20% can take a long time compared to the first
30%. This will vary depending on battery type and condition, so my 30%
figure is somewhat arbitrary, but fairly realistic.

 

A shore power fed battery charger from 20-40A will generally suffice to
sustain loads from refrigeration, lighting and entertainment devices
operating while the boat is alongside, and also provide enough power to
replenish the batteries. Again, a multi-step unit designed for marine use
should be chosen. There are lots of good marine chargers on the market. 

 

I note that non-marine AC chargers may not completely isolate the input from
the output, a potentially dangerous situation on the water, and should be
avoided. 

 

As Rick notes, designing an efficient, reliable electrical system is
complex. 

 

It's snowing again. G!

 

Rich Knowles

INDIGO - LF38

Halifax, NS

 





___
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http://www.cncphotoalbum.com
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Re: Stus-List Battery charger recommendations?

[Rick Brass]

Rich;

 

Thanks for the comments on the alternator. You’re right that generation 
capacity is an important consideration depending on how you cruise.

 

My cruising is coastal, along the ICW with engine on at least half the time, 
then long periods at anchor. I’ve decided that my engine alternator is 
sufficient when under weigh, but I hate to need to run the engine at all when 
at anchor. So I’ve invested in both Blue Sea and Link battery monitors to help 
me stretch the time between recharge at anchor, and contemplate solar and/or 
wind power installations to keep engine use down.

 

Maybe I won something in the lottery last night that will let me pay for it.

 

I have sympathy for your reaction to the snow. Winter Sucks! More than old 
sails.

 

Yesterday it was 67. Last night in the low 30s, going to 48 later today. 
They’re forecasting 80 on Saturday and Sunday and then back to 50 next week. I 
wish it would just even out to a nice steady 60-65. Then I could take down the 
Christmas lights on the boat and go sailing.

 

Rick Brass

 

From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of Rich Knowles
Sent: Wednesday, December 18, 2013 7:38 AM
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
Subject: Re: Stus-List Battery charger recommendations?

 

And to increase the presumptuous factor:

 

The alternators that were supplied as original equipment with most small boat 
engines until recently were from 35 - 55 A with internal, single voltage output 
regulators. A good percentage of the engines were destined for use in small 
motor vessels and these alternators were adequate for that application. For our 
use, which sees greatly increased loads from, as Rick notes, radar and 
refrigeration, and lengthy battery discharge periods between charges, those 
alternators are bordering on inadequate, and certainly not as efficient and 
appropriate as higher power units with multi stage regulators. 

 

For sailing vessels, a central component of optimizing the electrical system 
should be upgrading the generating capacity of the charging system. This will 
involve replacing the alternator with the largest unit that can be fitted, 
taking physical restrictions, drive belt capacity and depth of pocket book into 
account. For most 20-35 HP engines, around 100A works well. There are a number 
of external regulators available that should be considered for installation as 
part of the new system. A new alternator with a multi-step regulator will 
considerably reduce the engine run time needed to replenish the batteries. 
Other devices such as wind generators and solar panels are important for long 
range travels as well to further reduce the dependency on the engine. 

 

For calculation purposes, I generally consider the usable capacity of batteries 
to be 30% rather than 50% of rated capacity. This stems from the fact that a 
50% discharged battery will charge to around 80% at a fairly linear rate which 
will drop significantly as the state of charge nears 100%. Trying to achieve 
the last 20% can take a long time compared to the first 30%. This will vary 
depending on battery type and condition, so my 30% figure is somewhat 
arbitrary, but fairly realistic.

 

A shore power fed battery charger from 20-40A will generally suffice to sustain 
loads from refrigeration, lighting and entertainment devices operating while 
the boat is alongside, and also provide enough power to replenish the 
batteries. Again, a multi-step unit designed for marine use should be chosen. 
There are lots of good marine chargers on the market. 

 

I note that non-marine AC chargers may not completely isolate the input from 
the output, a potentially dangerous situation on the water, and should be 
avoided. 

 

As Rick notes, designing an efficient, reliable electrical system is complex. 

 

It's snowing again. G!

 

Rich Knowles

INDIGO - LF38

Halifax, NS

 


On Dec 17, 2013, at 20:45, "Rick Brass"  wrote:

Curtis;

 

At the risk of being presumptuous, I think you have the cart before the horse.

 

If your intent is extended cruising – particularly offshore cruising where you 
will not be using your engine for power (and to recharge the batteries) every 
day – you will first need to think about the systems you have on board and how 
much power they will draw. Refrigeration is a major draw. Radar? Autopilot? 
What instruments? What lights? Power for entertainment like radio or TV?  Small 
things like a 12 v electric coffee maker or a microwave draw a shocking amount 
of power out of your batteries.

 

Once you know how many amp hours you will use on average, you can figure out 
how many additional batteries you need, what type, and where to put them. My 
average consumption right now is under 100 amp-hours/day. But I plan to run 
refrigeration (45 more AH) and to anchor out for extended periods. So my house 
bank is 4 deep cycle group 27 batteries with 460 AH capacity. That gives 230 
usable AH (50% discharge) and should let me go 

Re: Stus-List Battery charger recommendations?

[David]

When I "re-alternatored" my boat with a smart charger etc. I sized the 
alternator so as to not put too much drag on the engine.  I sized my at 80 amp 
for a 33 hp diesel.  I estimate I lose 3hp when full on charging.  Any more, 
and you start losing, in my opinion, too much HP.

David F. Risch
1981 40-2
(401) 419-4650 (cell)


From: dwight...@gmail.com
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2013 10:38:57 -0400
Subject: Re: Stus-List Battery charger recommendations?























Hi Rich

 

I am not sure what my alternator output
rating is but my ammeter never shows more than 60 and even that is not for long
as it settles out to between 15 and 30 fairly quickly, like after a a minute of
steaming.  If I switch from one battery bank to the other during steaming
I can sometimes notice a slight drag on the engine (it seems to slow down a
bit) but even that is momentary (a second or 2).  My house bank is two, 6
volt deep cycle batteries connected in series and my start bank is one Group 24
deep cycle…they have been on the boat for 7 years continuous and have never let
me down.  I run an old 1720 Furuno radar when I need it (fog or dark) and
I run an Adler Barber in icebox refrigerator freezer.  I try to remember
to manually cycle the fridge on and off since I disconnected the thermostat and
now can’t remember which wires go where to reconnect it…Last season I left the
boat unattended on the mooring for about 5 days but I forgot to turn off the
fridge.  Much to my surprise after those 5 days there was still power left in
the battery and the fridge was still cold and I have no added insulation around
the ice box yet!!  I was able to start the engine from my start battery
and recharge my house bank from the engine. Probably some sailors use more
power on a regular basis than I do but 100 amps seems like a pretty high charge
rate.  Would a 100 amp charge rate not be hard on the cells?

 

 









From: CnC-List
[mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On
Behalf Of Rich Knowles

Sent: December 18, 2013 8:38 AM

To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com

Subject: Re: Stus-List Battery charger recommendations?



 



And to increase the
presumptuous factor:





 





The alternators that were
supplied as original equipment with most small boat engines until recently were
from 35 - 55 A with internal, single voltage output regulators. A good
percentage of the engines were destined for use in small motor vessels and
these alternators were adequate for that application. For our use, which sees
greatly increased loads from, as Rick notes, radar and refrigeration, and
lengthy battery discharge periods between charges, those alternators are
bordering on inadequate, and certainly not as efficient and appropriate as
higher power units with multi stage regulators. 





 





For sailing vessels, a
central component of optimizing the electrical system should be upgrading the
generating capacity of the charging system. This will involve replacing the
alternator with the largest unit that can be fitted, taking physical 
restrictions,
drive belt capacity and depth of pocket book into account. For most 20-35 HP
engines, around 100A works well. There are a number of external regulators
available that should be considered for installation as part of the new system.
A new alternator with a multi-step regulator will considerably reduce the
engine run time needed to replenish the batteries. Other devices such as wind
generators and solar panels are important for long range travels as well to
further reduce the dependency on the engine. 





 





For calculation purposes,
I generally consider the usable capacity of batteries to be 30% rather than 50%
of rated capacity. This stems from the fact that a 50% discharged battery will
charge to around 80% at a fairly linear rate which will drop significantly as
the state of charge nears 100%. Trying to achieve the last 20% can take a long
time compared to the first 30%. This will vary depending on battery type and
condition, so my 30% figure is somewhat arbitrary, but fairly realistic.





 





A shore power fed battery
charger from 20-40A will generally suffice to sustain loads from refrigeration,
lighting and entertainment devices operating while the boat is alongside, and
also provide enough power to replenish the batteries. Again, a multi-step unit
designed for marine use should be chosen. There are lots of good marine
chargers on the market. 





 





I note that non-marine AC
chargers may not completely isolate the input from the output, a potentially
dangerous situation on the water, and should be avoided. 





 





As Rick notes, designing
an efficient, reliable electrical system is complex. 





 





It's snowing again.
G!





 





Rich Knowles





INDIGO - LF38





Halifax,
 NS









 























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Re: Stus-List Battery charger recommendations?

[Steve Thomas]

Excellent comments Rich. 

I would add that one needs to confirm that the power take off available for 
driving a proposed larger alternator can handle the increased load. This is 
especially true for engines where the power take off is through a gear train, 
and not directly off one end of the crankshaft. In these circumstances it may 
not be just a question of how large a fraction of the engine's output do you 
want to direct to the alternator. The maximum load presented by the proposed 
alternator, plus the water pump load, must not exceed the power take off design 
limits. This is at least an issue with the Yanmar YSE, YSB, and YSM series of 
engines. I don't know if there are any other common engine with designs similar 
in that respect, but it is worth checking before going and an buying too large 
an alternator for a specific engine. Yes the specific engines I mentioned are 
smaller than 20-35 HP, but there are many of us that do have em. An alternator 
that can actually deliver 100 amps will need around 3 horsepower to drive it. 

Steve Thomas
C&C27 MKIII
Port Stanley, ON


-Original Message-
From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com]On Behalf Of Rich Knowles
Sent: Wednesday, December 18, 2013 7:38 AM
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
Subject: Re: Stus-List Battery charger recommendations?


And to increase the presumptuous factor:


The alternators that were supplied as original equipment with most small boat 
engines until recently were from 35 - 55 A with internal, single voltage output 
regulators. A good percentage of the engines were destined for use in small 
motor vessels and these alternators were adequate for that application. For our 
use, which sees greatly increased loads from, as Rick notes, radar and 
refrigeration, and lengthy battery discharge periods between charges, those 
alternators are bordering on inadequate, and certainly not as efficient and 
appropriate as higher power units with multi stage regulators. 


For sailing vessels, a central component of optimizing the electrical system 
should be upgrading the generating capacity of the charging system. This will 
involve replacing the alternator with the largest unit that can be fitted, 
taking physical restrictions, drive belt capacity and depth of pocket book into 
account. For most 20-35 HP engines, around 100A works well. There are a number 
of external regulators available that should be considered for installation as 
part of the new system. A new alternator with a multi-step regulator will 
considerably reduce the engine run time needed to replenish the batteries. 
Other devices such as wind generators and solar panels are important for long 
range travels as well to further reduce the dependency on the engine. 


For calculation purposes, I generally consider the usable capacity of batteries 
to be 30% rather than 50% of rated capacity. This stems from the fact that a 
50% discharged battery will charge to around 80% at a fairly linear rate which 
will drop significantly as the state of charge nears 100%. Trying to achieve 
the last 20% can take a long time compared to the first 30%. This will vary 
depending on battery type and condition, so my 30% figure is somewhat 
arbitrary, but fairly realistic.


A shore power fed battery charger from 20-40A will generally suffice to sustain 
loads from refrigeration, lighting and entertainment devices operating while 
the boat is alongside, and also provide enough power to replenish the 
batteries. Again, a multi-step unit designed for marine use should be chosen. 
There are lots of good marine chargers on the market. 


I note that non-marine AC chargers may not completely isolate the input from 
the output, a potentially dangerous situation on the water, and should be 
avoided. 


As Rick notes, designing an efficient, reliable electrical system is complex. 


It's snowing again. G!


Rich Knowles
INDIGO - LF38
Halifax, NS




On Dec 17, 2013, at 20:45, "Rick Brass"  wrote:


  Curtis;



  At the risk of being presumptuous, I think you have the cart before the horse.



  If your intent is extended cruising – particularly offshore cruising where 
you will not be using your engine for power (and to recharge the batteries) 
every day – you will first need to think about the systems you have on board 
and how much power they will draw. Refrigeration is a major draw. Radar? 
Autopilot? What instruments? What lights? Power for entertainment like radio or 
TV?  Small things like a 12 v electric coffee maker or a microwave draw a 
shocking amount of power out of your batteries.



  Once you know how many amp hours you will use on average, you can figure out 
how many additional batteries you need, what type, and where to put them. My 
average consumption right now is under 100 amp-hours/day. But I plan to run 
refrigeration (45 more AH) and to anchor out for extended periods. So my house 
bank is 4 deep cycle group 27 batteries with 460 AH capacity. That gives 230 

cnc-list@cnc-list.com

[kelly petew]

allen, Hi,
I have the "Cold Machine" [Adler/Barbour] in my 30.  It's air cooled, and I've 
had no problems with it in the 10+ years I've owned Siren Song.  
It was installed by PO.  
It is located under the port settee, directly in front of the galley sink.  
It's vented on the right just above sole.  
Because it's air-cooled, it probably adds to the cabin temps, but I don't think 
it's material.  
I'll freeze a gallon jug of H20, put it in the box, and turn on the frig.  This 
gets everything cold quickly without a lot of melting ice.  
 
FWIW,  a cruising friend of mine has a water-cooled unit [Grunnert, I think].  
While the unit does a really good job, we had lots of problems this past season 
with blockages mainly due to jellyfish ["the cockroach of the Chesapeake!].
 
So, I'd go with air cooled unit.  
As far as ampacity, I have 2 house batteries, and 1 start batt., but it's 
probably 50% of your capacity.   I usually leave it "off" unless I'm plugged 
in, or motoring.
I'm curious what brand of battery you have, and did you have to modify the aft 
cabin space??  I'd like to increase my amps.
 
Pete Winters
 
s/v Siren Song
'91 C&C30 MKII
Deltaville, VA
 
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This List is provided by the C&C Photo Album
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Re: Stus-List Battery charger recommendations? comment about alternators

[Rick Brass]

Dwight;

 

Rich and I were addressing the power systems for a boat used for long term
live aboard cruising. IIRC you are on a dock and use your boat for daysails
and the occasional weekend or vacation cruise. For than situation, the OEM
alternator is just fine.

 

Starting your engine draws somewhere around 200 amps for something around 30
seconds. That is less than 2 AH reduction in capacity. Add a 2 to 3%
reduction for self discharge over a month at the dock. Call it another 4 AH
on a typical  group 24 battery. So you need to put around 6 AH back into
your start battery while the engine runs, and the battery is probably at
around 95% charge when you start out, so there is high resistance to
charging and reduced acceptance rate. You probably need to run the engine
for 20 or 30 minutes to recharge the start battery.

 

All your boat systems except the bilge pump are turned off when at the dock,
except when you are on vacation. So you only have to replace the loss from
self discharge in your house bank. Two golf cart batteries is probably
around 275 AH capacity, times 3% per month, is around 8-9 AH. Your OEM
alternator is probably able to accomplish that while you motor out and raise
the sails.

 

I'm sort of surprised that the house bank was able to run your refrigeration
for 5 days. Most refrigeration systems seem to use 45 or more AH in a 24
hour period. But then, you are in the great white north so maybe the lower
average temperature differential reduces the cooling load and thus the
current draw.

 

Rick

 

From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of dwight
Sent: Wednesday, December 18, 2013 9:39 AM
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
Subject: Re: Stus-List Battery charger recommendations?

 

Hi Rich

 

I am not sure what my alternator output rating is but my ammeter never shows
more than 60 and even that is not for long as it settles out to between 15
and 30 fairly quickly, like after a a minute of steaming.  If I switch from
one battery bank to the other during steaming I can sometimes notice a
slight drag on the engine (it seems to slow down a bit) but even that is
momentary (a second or 2).  My house bank is two, 6 volt deep cycle
batteries connected in series and my start bank is one Group 24 deep
cycle.they have been on the boat for 7 years continuous and have never let
me down.  I run an old 1720 Furuno radar when I need it (fog or dark) and I
run an Adler Barber in icebox refrigerator freezer.  I try to remember to
manually cycle the fridge on and off since I disconnected the thermostat and
now can't remember which wires go where to reconnect it.Last season I left
the boat unattended on the mooring for about 5 days but I forgot to turn off
the fridge.  Much to my surprise after those 5 days there was still power
left in the battery and the fridge was still cold and I have no added
insulation around the ice box yet!!  I was able to start the engine from my
start battery and recharge my house bank from the engine. Probably some
sailors use more power on a regular basis than I do but 100 amps seems like
a pretty high charge rate.  Would a 100 amp charge rate not be hard on the
cells?

 

 

  _  

From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of Rich
Knowles
Sent: December 18, 2013 8:38 AM
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
Subject: Re: Stus-List Battery charger recommendations?

 

And to increase the presumptuous factor:

 

The alternators that were supplied as original equipment with most small
boat engines until recently were from 35 - 55 A with internal, single
voltage output regulators. A good percentage of the engines were destined
for use in small motor vessels and these alternators were adequate for that
application. For our use, which sees greatly increased loads from, as Rick
notes, radar and refrigeration, and lengthy battery discharge periods
between charges, those alternators are bordering on inadequate, and
certainly not as efficient and appropriate as higher power units with multi
stage regulators. 

 

For sailing vessels, a central component of optimizing the electrical system
should be upgrading the generating capacity of the charging system. This
will involve replacing the alternator with the largest unit that can be
fitted, taking physical restrictions, drive belt capacity and depth of
pocket book into account. For most 20-35 HP engines, around 100A works well.
There are a number of external regulators available that should be
considered for installation as part of the new system. A new alternator with
a multi-step regulator will considerably reduce the engine run time needed
to replenish the batteries. Other devices such as wind generators and solar
panels are important for long range travels as well to further reduce the
dependency on the engine. 

 

For calculation purposes, I generally consider the usable capacity of
batteries to be 30% rather than 50% of rated capacity. This stems from the
fact that a 50% discharged battery will charge 

Re: Stus-List Battery charger recommendations? comment about alternators

[Curtis]

So here's a dumb question?
If I'm on shore power is just my battery charger and the DC outlets using
shore power or can I run the cabin lights and radio on the DC system? and
if so how?



On Wed, Dec 18, 2013 at 10:23 AM, Rick Brass wrote:

> Dwight;
>
>
>
> Rich and I were addressing the power systems for a boat used for long term
> live aboard cruising. IIRC you are on a dock and use your boat for daysails
> and the occasional weekend or vacation cruise. For than situation, the OEM
> alternator is just fine.
>
>
>
> Starting your engine draws somewhere around 200 amps for something around
> 30 seconds. That is less than 2 AH reduction in capacity. Add a 2 to 3%
> reduction for self discharge over a month at the dock. Call it another 4 AH
> on a typical  group 24 battery. So you need to put around 6 AH back into
> your start battery while the engine runs, and the battery is probably at
> around 95% charge when you start out, so there is high resistance to
> charging and reduced acceptance rate. You probably need to run the engine
> for 20 or 30 minutes to recharge the start battery.
>
>
>
> All your boat systems except the bilge pump are turned off when at the
> dock, except when you are on vacation. So you only have to replace the loss
> from self discharge in your house bank. Two golf cart batteries is probably
> around 275 AH capacity, times 3% per month, is around 8-9 AH. Your OEM
> alternator is probably able to accomplish that while you motor out and
> raise the sails.
>
>
>
> I’m sort of surprised that the house bank was able to run your
> refrigeration for 5 days. Most refrigeration systems seem to use 45 or more
> AH in a 24 hour period. But then, you are in the great white north so maybe
> the lower average temperature differential reduces the cooling load and
> thus the current draw.
>
>
>
> Rick
>
>
>
> *From:* CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] *On Behalf Of *
> dwight
> *Sent:* Wednesday, December 18, 2013 9:39 AM
> *To:* cnc-list@cnc-list.com
> *Subject:* Re: Stus-List Battery charger recommendations?
>
>
>
> Hi Rich
>
>
>
> I am not sure what my alternator output rating is but my ammeter never
> shows more than 60 and even that is not for long as it settles out to
> between 15 and 30 fairly quickly, like after a a minute of steaming.  If I
> switch from one battery bank to the other during steaming I can sometimes
> notice a slight drag on the engine (it seems to slow down a bit) but even
> that is momentary (a second or 2).  My house bank is two, 6 volt deep cycle
> batteries connected in series and my start bank is one Group 24 deep
> cycle…they have been on the boat for 7 years continuous and have never let
> me down.  I run an old 1720 Furuno radar when I need it (fog or dark) and I
> run an Adler Barber in icebox refrigerator freezer.  I try to remember to
> manually cycle the fridge on and off since I disconnected the thermostat
> and now can’t remember which wires go where to reconnect it…Last season I
> left the boat unattended on the mooring for about 5 days but I forgot to
> turn off the fridge.  Much to my surprise after those 5 days there was
> still power left in the battery and the fridge was still cold and I have no
> added insulation around the ice box yet!!  I was able to start the engine
> from my start battery and recharge my house bank from the engine. Probably
> some sailors use more power on a regular basis than I do but 100 amps seems
> like a pretty high charge rate.  Would a 100 amp charge rate not be hard on
> the cells?
>
>
>
>
> --
>
> *From:* CnC-List 
> [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com]
> *On Behalf Of *Rich Knowles
> *Sent:* December 18, 2013 8:38 AM
> *To:* cnc-list@cnc-list.com
> *Subject:* Re: Stus-List Battery charger recommendations?
>
>
>
> And to increase the presumptuous factor:
>
>
>
> The alternators that were supplied as original equipment with most small
> boat engines until recently were from 35 - 55 A with internal, single
> voltage output regulators. A good percentage of the engines were destined
> for use in small motor vessels and these alternators were adequate for that
> application. For our use, which sees greatly increased loads from, as Rick
> notes, radar and refrigeration, and lengthy battery discharge periods
> between charges, those alternators are bordering on inadequate, and
> certainly not as efficient and appropriate as higher power units with multi
> stage regulators.
>
>
>
> For sailing vessels, a central component of optimizing the electrical
> system should be upgrading the generating capacity of the charging system.
> This will involve replacing the alternator with the largest unit that can
> be fitted, taking physical restrictions, drive belt capacity and depth of
> pocket book into account. For most 20-35 HP engines, around 100A works
> well. There are a number of external regulators available that should be
> considered for installation as part of the new system. A new altern

Re: Stus-List Mexico... [was Crack where keel meets hull]

[Frederick G Street]

On Dec 17, 2013, at 8:16 PM, Rick Brass  wrote:

> I bet Fred Street still thinks about how much nicer than Minnesota Mexico
> would be in the winter.



Ummm… yeah, particularly this year…

http://brainerddispatch.com/weather/2013-12-15/coldest-december-stretch-41-years

Fred Street -- Minneapolis
S/V Oceanis (1979 C&C Landfall 38) -- on the hard in Bayfield, WI   :^(


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Re: Stus-List Battery charger recommendations?

[Rich Knowles]

The drive belt is as much a limiting factor as anything else. I've been using 
an adapted Delco 105A alternator for at least 12 years with no bad outcomes to 
my Yanmar 3QM30 other than a new belt every year or so. Also I seldom see the 
charge rate exceed 70A. 

Rich

> On Dec 18, 2013, at 11:18, Steve Thomas  wrote:
> 
> Excellent comments Rich.
>  
> I would add that one needs to confirm that the power take off available for 
> driving a proposed larger alternator can handle the increased load. This is 
> especially true for engines where the power take off is through a gear train, 
> and not directly off one end of the crankshaft. In these circumstances it may 
> not be just a question of how large a fraction of the engine's output do you 
> want to direct to the alternator. The  maximum load presented by the proposed 
> alternator, plus the water pump load, must not exceed the power take off 
> design limits. This is at least an issue with the Yanmar YSE, YSB, and YSM 
> series of engines. I don't know if there are any other common engine with 
> designs similar in that respect, but it is worth checking before going and an 
> buying too large an alternator  for a specific engine. Yes the specific 
> engines I mentioned are smaller than 20-35 HP, but there are many of us that 
> do have em. An alternator that can actually deliver 100 amps will need around 
> 3 horsepower to drive it.
>  
> Steve Thomas
> C&C27 MKIII
> Port Stanley, ON
>  
>  
> -Original Message-
> From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com]On Behalf Of Rich Knowles
> Sent: Wednesday, December 18, 2013 7:38 AM
> To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
> Subject: Re: Stus-List Battery charger recommendations?
> 
> And to increase the presumptuous factor:
> 
> The alternators that were supplied as original equipment with most small boat 
> engines until recently were from 35 - 55 A with internal, single voltage 
> output regulators. A good percentage of the engines were destined for use in 
> small motor vessels and these alternators were adequate for that application. 
> For our use, which sees greatly increased loads from, as Rick notes, radar 
> and refrigeration, and lengthy battery discharge periods between charges, 
> those alternators are bordering on inadequate, and certainly not as efficient 
> and appropriate as higher power units with multi stage regulators. 
> 
> For sailing vessels, a central component of optimizing the electrical system 
> should be upgrading the generating capacity of the charging system. This will 
> involve replacing the alternator with the largest unit that can be fitted, 
> taking physical restrictions, drive belt capacity and depth of pocket book 
> into account. For most 20-35 HP engines, around 100A works well. There are a 
> number of external regulators available that should be considered for 
> installation as part of the new system. A new alternator with a multi-step 
> regulator will considerably reduce the engine run time needed to replenish 
> the batteries. Other devices such as wind generators and solar panels are 
> important for long range travels as well to further reduce the dependency on 
> the engine. 
> 
> For calculation purposes, I generally consider the usable capacity of 
> batteries to be 30% rather than 50% of rated capacity. This stems from the 
> fact that a 50% discharged battery will charge to around 80% at a fairly 
> linear rate which will drop significantly as the state of charge nears 100%. 
> Trying to achieve the last 20% can take a long time compared to the first 
> 30%. This will vary depending on battery type and condition, so my 30% figure 
> is somewhat arbitrary, but fairly realistic.
> 
> A shore power fed battery charger from 20-40A will generally suffice to 
> sustain loads from refrigeration, lighting and entertainment devices 
> operating while the boat is alongside, and also provide enough power to 
> replenish the batteries. Again, a multi-step unit designed for marine use 
> should be chosen. There are lots of good marine chargers on the market. 
> 
> I note that non-marine AC chargers may not completely isolate the input from 
> the output, a potentially dangerous situation on the water, and should be 
> avoided. 
> 
> As Rick notes, designing an efficient, reliable electrical system is complex. 
> 
> It's snowing again. G!
> 
> Rich Knowles
> INDIGO - LF38
> Halifax, NS
> 
> 
>> On Dec 17, 2013, at 20:45, "Rick Brass"  wrote:
>> 
>> Curtis;
>> At the risk of being presumptuous, I think you have the cart before the 
>> horse.
>> If your intent is extended cruising – particularly offshore cruising where 
>> youwill not be using your engine for power (and to recharge the 
>> batteries) every day – you will first need to think about the systems you 
>> have on board and how much power they will draw. Refrigeration is a major 
>> draw. Radar? Autopilot? What instruments? What lights? Power for 
>> entertainment like radio or TV?  Small things li

Re: Stus-List Battery charger recommendations?

[Frederick G Street]

Also remember that putting a huge alternator on a diesel like ours can present 
excessive side-loading to the shaft bearings, reducing their life.  So try to 
size appropriately for your battery bank AND engine hp.  Going too big can be 
bad for your engine.

Fred Street -- Minneapolis
S/V Oceanis (1979 C&C Landfall 38) -- on the hard in Bayfield, WI   :^(

On Dec 18, 2013, at 9:18 AM, Steve Thomas  wrote:

> Excellent comments Rich.
>  
> I would add that one needs to confirm that the power take off available for 
> driving a proposed larger alternator can handle the increased load. This is 
> especially true for engines where the power take off is through a gear train, 
> and not directly off one end of the crankshaft. In these circumstances it may 
> not be just a question of how large a fraction of the engine's output do you 
> want to direct to the alternator. The maximum load presented by the proposed 
> alternator, plus the water pump load, must not exceed the power take off 
> design limits. This is at least an issue with the Yanmar YSE, YSB, and YSM 
> series of engines. I don't know if there are any other common engine with 
> designs similar in that respect, but it is worth checking before going and an 
> buying too large an alternator for a specific engine. Yes the specific 
> engines I mentioned are smaller than 20-35 HP, but there are many of us that 
> do have em. An alternator that can actually deliver 100 amps will need around 
> 3 horsepower to drive it.
>  
> Steve Thomas
> C&C27 MKIII
> Port Stanley, ON

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This List is provided by the C&C Photo Album
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CnC-List@cnc-list.com

cnc-list@cnc-list.com

[Andrew Burton]

One thing I did when I installed my SeaFrost air-cooled unit was vent it
into the hanging locker just forward of the galley. It makes a great place
to hang and dry foul weather gear. Every time I pull a nice dry jacket out
of the locker, I am reminded of just how clever I am! It offsets all the
other examples to the contrary.
Andy
C&C 40
Peregrine


On Wed, Dec 18, 2013 at 10:21 AM, kelly petew  wrote:

> allen, Hi,
> I have the "Cold Machine" [Adler/Barbour] in my 30.  It's air cooled, and
> I've had no problems with it in the 10+ years I've owned Siren Song.
> It was installed by PO.
> It is located under the port settee, directly in front of the galley
> sink.  It's vented on the right just above sole.
> Because it's air-cooled, it probably adds to the cabin temps, but I don't
> think it's material.
> I'll freeze a gallon jug of H20, put it in the box, and turn on the frig.
> This gets everything cold quickly without a lot of melting ice.
>
> FWIW,  a cruising friend of mine has a water-cooled unit [Grunnert, I
> think].  While the unit does a really good job, we had lots of problems
> this past season with blockages mainly due to jellyfish ["the cockroach of
> the Chesapeake!].
>
> So, I'd go with air cooled unit.
> As far as ampacity, I have 2 house batteries, and 1 start batt., but it's
> probably 50% of your capacity.   I usually leave it "off" unless I'm
> plugged in, or motoring.
> I'm curious what brand of battery you have, and did you have to modify the
> aft cabin space??  I'd like to increase my amps.
>
> Pete Winters
>
> s/v Siren Song
> '91 C&C30 MKII
> Deltaville, VA
>
>
> ___
> This List is provided by the C&C Photo Album
> http://www.cncphotoalbum.com
> CnC-List@cnc-list.com
>
>


-- 
Andrew Burton
61 W Narragansett Ave
Newport, RI
USA 02840
http://sites.google.com/site/andrewburtonyachtservices/
phone  +401 965 5260
___
This List is provided by the C&C Photo Album
http://www.cncphotoalbum.com
CnC-List@cnc-list.com

Re: Stus-List Battery charger recommendations?

[Della Barba, Joe]

To add to the mix, any Atomic-4 powered boat is running a 1:1 pulley ratio. 
This results in a max of around 60-80 amps even if you add a 500 amp alternator 
and no charging at all at idle. One project I have on the back burner is 
fabbing a bracket to run off a crank pulley and get a better ratio. Adding 
solar kind of put that back a bit – amazing how much good even 25 watts does.

Joe Della Barba
Coquina
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Re: Stus-List Battery charger recommendations?

[Gary Nylander]

Rick, I seem to remember that Curtis has a 30. He couldn't have near the needs 
you do on your 38 or he would be all batteries in that smaller boat.

Gary
  - Original Message - 
  From: Rick Brass 
  To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com 
  Sent: Tuesday, December 17, 2013 7:45 PM
  Subject: Re: Stus-List Battery charger recommendations?


  Curtis;

   

  At the risk of being presumptuous, I think you have the cart before the horse.

   

  If your intent is extended cruising - particularly offshore cruising where 
you will not be using your engine for power (and to recharge the batteries) 
every day - you will first need to think about the systems you have on board 
and how much power they will draw. Refrigeration is a major draw. Radar? 
Autopilot? What instruments? What lights? Power for entertainment like radio or 
TV?  Small things like a 12 v electric coffee maker or a microwave draw a 
shocking amount of power out of your batteries.

   

  Once you know how many amp hours you will use on average, you can figure out 
how many additional batteries you need, what type, and where to put them. My 
average consumption right now is under 100 amp-hours/day. But I plan to run 
refrigeration (45 more AH) and to anchor out for extended periods. So my house 
bank is 4 deep cycle group 27 batteries with 460 AH capacity. That gives 230 
usable AH (50% discharge) and should let me go for 2 days between charges. In 
addition I have a group 29 marine starting battery as a second bank, and a deep 
cycle group 24 under the v-berth to power the head and the anchor windlass.

   

  The 400+ AH house bank dictates at least a 40amp, multi bank charger. I have 
an older Xantrex 40+ wired to the house and starting bank. There is a solar 
charger for the group 24 battery that is OK for now, but I plan to install an 
ACR that will top up the charge on that battery when I'm hooked to shore power 
or running the engine.

   

  To put 100 AH into my house bank by running the engine (with a 45 amp 
alternator installed) will take at least 3 hours of run time - which is OK when 
I'm traveling on the ICW but not acceptable when at anchor. SO I plan to 
install a bank of solar panels over the Bimini, and maybe a wind generator as 
well, to maintain the batteries at anchor.

   

  As you can see, the process starts with determining how much power you will 
be using each day, and that will depend on what systems you have installed for 
cruising.

   

  You said you had an "OEM" battery charger installed. Probably not really OEM, 
but the question is: is it still working? If it is, spend your money on the 
other systems you will be installing, and the additional batteries, and worry 
about a new (probably more efficient) charger in 2017 or so.

   

   

  Rick Brass

  Washington, NC

   

   

   

  From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of Curtis
  Sent: Tuesday, December 17, 2013 1:16 PM
  To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
  Subject: Re: Stus-List Battery charger recommendations?

   

  I picked up the one noted above to maintain the battery's. In my first post I 
was trying to explain I needed something to keep the batt's charged while 
sailing ever couple of weeks. "For Now" In  2018 We hope to shove off for some 
extended cruising. 

  I will need to install a Good expensive on board fixed mount bank charger. 
This is what I was hoping to get advice on. the Good one that will give me a 
charge on all my batt's when I come in from off shore. 

  Sorry for the confusion.

   

   

   

   

  On Tue, Dec 17, 2013 at 12:52 PM, Josh Muckley  wrote:

  Evidently, we all misunderstood the question.  The battery minder is 
advertised to provide a "de-sufating" pulse charge to prevent loss of capacity. 
 This is fine and may or may not add value for your purpose.  Had any of us 
realized that you simply wanted to keep the batteries from self discharging 
during winter storage you would have received drastically different answers.  

  For ultra cheap $20 you can find 2amp smart chargers that cycle to prevent 
over charging.  If conditioning or de-sufating was the goal then I would have 
possibly recommended a higher power portable unit with a conditioning feature.  
10-40amps, 3 stage, and conditioning mode, $50-100.  Stanley, Schumacher, 
Vector all have similar units available at the big box, auto, and boat stores.  
I'm not convinced that the battery minder has a more effective de-sulfating 
feature than any of the others. 

  Many people prefer to occasionally visit the boat to top up the batteries.  
This eliminates the risks of overcharge, electical fire, and galvanic corrosion.

  What type of charger did you already have?  What was wrong with using it?

  Josh Muckley

  On Dec 17, 2013 10:29 AM, "Curtis"  wrote:

  Battery Tender Plus 12v 1.25 Amp 3 Stage Smart Charger BT-021-0128
   

  Sorry I posted the wrong model.

   

   

  Wal-mart

  $66.48

   

  On Tue, Dec 17, 2013 at 9:59 AM, Bill Bina  wr

cnc-list@cnc-list.com

[Dave Godwin]

Dang.  Guess all the little fishes are getting their fins warmed around my boat.

Frigoboat Keel Cooler system….

Cheers,
Dave
1982 C&C 37 - Ronin

On Dec 18, 2013, at 10:47 AM, Andrew Burton  wrote:

> One thing I did when I installed my SeaFrost air-cooled unit was vent it into 
> the hanging locker just forward of the galley. It makes a great place to hang 
> and dry foul weather gear. Every time I pull a nice dry jacket out of the 
> locker, I am reminded of just how clever I am! It offsets all the other 
> examples to the contrary.
> Andy
> C&C 40
> Peregrine
> 
> 
> On Wed, Dec 18, 2013 at 10:21 AM, kelly petew  wrote:
> allen, Hi,
> I have the "Cold Machine" [Adler/Barbour] in my 30.  It's air cooled, and 
> I've had no problems with it in the 10+ years I've owned Siren Song.  
> It was installed by PO.  
> It is located under the port settee, directly in front of the galley sink.  
> It's vented on the right just above sole.  
> Because it's air-cooled, it probably adds to the cabin temps, but I don't 
> think it's material.  
> I'll freeze a gallon jug of H20, put it in the box, and turn on the frig.  
> This gets everything cold quickly without a lot of melting ice.  
>  
> FWIW,  a cruising friend of mine has a water-cooled unit [Grunnert, I think]. 
>  While the unit does a really good job, we had lots of problems this past 
> season with blockages mainly due to jellyfish ["the cockroach of the 
> Chesapeake!].
>  
> So, I'd go with air cooled unit.  
> As far as ampacity, I have 2 house batteries, and 1 start batt., but it's 
> probably 50% of your capacity.   I usually leave it "off" unless I'm plugged 
> in, or motoring.
> I'm curious what brand of battery you have, and did you have to modify the 
> aft cabin space??  I'd like to increase my amps.
>  
> Pete Winters
>  
> s/v Siren Song
> '91 C&C30 MKII
> Deltaville, VA
>  
> 
> ___
> This List is provided by the C&C Photo Album
> http://www.cncphotoalbum.com
> CnC-List@cnc-list.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Andrew Burton
> 61 W Narragansett Ave
> Newport, RI
> USA 02840
> http://sites.google.com/site/andrewburtonyachtservices/
> phone  +401 965 5260
> ___
> This List is provided by the C&C Photo Album
> http://www.cncphotoalbum.com
> CnC-List@cnc-list.com

___
This List is provided by the C&C Photo Album
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Re: Stus-List Battery charger recommendations?

[Curtis]

Yea My boat is small. No A/C no Refg / freezer no microwave. Ni Invert-er.
Just basic stuff.


On Wed, Dec 18, 2013 at 10:55 AM, Gary Nylander wrote:

>  Rick, I seem to remember that Curtis has a 30. He couldn't have near the
> needs you do on your 38 or he would be all batteries in that smaller boat.
>
> Gary
>
> - Original Message -
> *From:* Rick Brass 
> *To:* cnc-list@cnc-list.com
> *Sent:* Tuesday, December 17, 2013 7:45 PM
> *Subject:* Re: Stus-List Battery charger recommendations?
>
>  Curtis;
>
>
>
> At the risk of being presumptuous, I think you have the cart before the
> horse.
>
>
>
> If your intent is extended cruising – particularly offshore cruising where
> you will not be using your engine for power (and to recharge the batteries)
> every day – you will first need to think about the systems you have on
> board and how much power they will draw. Refrigeration is a major draw.
> Radar? Autopilot? What instruments? What lights? Power for entertainment
> like radio or TV?  Small things like a 12 v electric coffee maker or a
> microwave draw a shocking amount of power out of your batteries.
>
>
>
> Once you know how many amp hours you will use on average, you can figure
> out how many additional batteries you need, what type, and where to put
> them. My average consumption right now is under 100 amp-hours/day. But I
> plan to run refrigeration (45 more AH) and to anchor out for extended
> periods. So my house bank is 4 deep cycle group 27 batteries with 460 AH
> capacity. That gives 230 usable AH (50% discharge) and should let me go for
> 2 days between charges. In addition I have a group 29 marine starting
> battery as a second bank, and a deep cycle group 24 under the v-berth to
> power the head and the anchor windlass.
>
>
>
> The 400+ AH house bank dictates at least a 40amp, multi bank charger. I
> have an older Xantrex 40+ wired to the house and starting bank. There is a
> solar charger for the group 24 battery that is OK for now, but I plan to
> install an ACR that will top up the charge on that battery when I’m hooked
> to shore power or running the engine.
>
>
>
> To put 100 AH into my house bank by running the engine (with a 45 amp
> alternator installed) will take at least 3 hours of run time – which is OK
> when I’m traveling on the ICW but not acceptable when at anchor. SO I plan
> to install a bank of solar panels over the Bimini, and maybe a wind
> generator as well, to maintain the batteries at anchor.
>
>
>
> As you can see, the process starts with determining how much power you
> will be using each day, and that will depend on what systems you have
> installed for cruising.
>
>
>
> You said you had an “OEM” battery charger installed. Probably not really
> OEM, but the question is: is it still working? If it is, spend your money
> on the other systems you will be installing, and the additional batteries,
> and worry about a new (probably more efficient) charger in 2017 or so.
>
>
>
>
>
> Rick Brass
>
> Washington, NC
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] *On Behalf Of *
> Curtis
> *Sent:* Tuesday, December 17, 2013 1:16 PM
> *To:* cnc-list@cnc-list.com
> *Subject:* Re: Stus-List Battery charger recommendations?
>
>
>
> I picked up the one noted above to maintain the battery's. In my first
> post I was trying to explain I needed something to keep the batt's charged
> while sailing ever couple of weeks. "For Now" In  2018 We hope to shove off
> for some extended cruising.
>
> I will need to install a Good expensive on board fixed mount bank charger.
> This is what I was hoping to get advice on. the Good one that will give me
> a charge on all my batt's when I come in from off shore.
>
> Sorry for the confusion.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Tue, Dec 17, 2013 at 12:52 PM, Josh Muckley  wrote:
>
> Evidently, we all misunderstood the question.  The battery minder is
> advertised to provide a "de-sufating" pulse charge to prevent loss of
> capacity.  This is fine and may or may not add value for your purpose.  Had
> any of us realized that you simply wanted to keep the batteries from self
> discharging during winter storage you would have received drastically
> different answers.
>
> For ultra cheap $20 you can find 2amp smart chargers that cycle to prevent
> over charging.  If conditioning or de-sufating was the goal then I would
> have possibly recommended a higher power portable unit with a conditioning
> feature.  10-40amps, 3 stage, and conditioning mode, $50-100.  Stanley,
> Schumacher, Vector all have similar units available at the big box, auto,
> and boat stores.  I'm not convinced that the battery minder has a more
> effective de-sulfating feature than any of the others.
>
> Many people prefer to occasionally visit the boat to top up the
> batteries.  This eliminates the risks of overcharge, electical fire, and
> galvanic corrosion.
>
> What type of charger did you already have?  What was wrong with using it?
>
> Josh Muckley
>
> On Dec 17,

Re: Stus-List Battery charger recommendations? comment about alternators

[Rich Knowles]

If your boat is wired correctly, the battery charger feeds the battery and all 
your DC loads will function exactly as normal. 

I suggest you, and anyone else who doesn't have one,  purchase a copy of Nigel 
Calder's Boat Owners Mechanical and Electrical Manual. An excellent all round 
resource. 

http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B006QA720O

Rich

> On Dec 18, 2013, at 11:33, Curtis  wrote:
> 
> So here's a dumb question?
> If I'm on shore power is just my battery charger and the DC outlets using 
> shore power or can I run the cabin lights and radio on the DC system? and if 
> so how?
> 
> 
> 
>> On Wed, Dec 18, 2013 at 10:23 AM, Rick Brass  wrote:
>> Dwight;
>> 
>>  
>> 
>> Rich and I were addressing the power systems for a boat used for long term 
>> live aboard cruising. IIRC you are on a dock and use your boat for daysails 
>> and the occasional weekend or vacation cruise. For than situation, the OEM 
>> alternator is just fine.
>> 
>>  
>> 
>> Starting your engine draws somewhere around 200 amps for something around 30 
>> seconds. That is less than 2 AH reduction in capacity. Add a 2 to 3% 
>> reduction for self discharge over a month at the dock. Call it another 4 AH 
>> on a typical  group 24 battery. So you need to put around 6 AH back into 
>> your start battery while the engine runs, and the battery is probably at 
>> around 95% charge when you start out, so there is high resistance to 
>> charging and reduced acceptance rate. You probably need to run the engine 
>> for 20 or 30 minutes to recharge the start battery.
>> 
>>  
>> 
>> All your boat systems except the bilge pump are turned off when at the dock, 
>> except when you are on vacation. So you only have to replace the loss from 
>> self discharge in your house bank. Two golf cart batteries is probably 
>> around 275 AH capacity, times 3% per month, is around 8-9 AH. Your OEM 
>> alternator is probably able to accomplish that while you motor out and raise 
>> the sails.
>> 
>>  
>> 
>> I’m sort of surprised that the house bank was able to run your refrigeration 
>> for 5 days. Most refrigeration systems seem to use 45 or more AH in a 24 
>> hour period. But then, you are in the great white north so maybe the lower 
>> average temperature differential reduces the cooling load and thus the 
>> current draw.
>> 
>>  
>> 
>> Rick
>> 
>>  
>> 
>> From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of dwight
>> Sent: Wednesday, December 18, 2013 9:39 AM
>> To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
>> Subject: Re: Stus-List Battery charger recommendations?
>> 
>>  
>> 
>> Hi Rich
>> 
>>  
>> 
>> I am not sure what my alternator output rating is but my ammeter never shows 
>> more than 60 and even that is not for long as it settles out to between 15 
>> and 30 fairly quickly, like after a a minute of steaming.  If I switch from 
>> one battery bank to the other during steaming I can sometimes notice a 
>> slight drag on the engine (it seems to slow down a bit) but even that is 
>> momentary (a second or 2).  My house bank is two, 6 volt deep cycle 
>> batteries connected in series and my start bank is one Group 24 deep 
>> cycle…they have been on the boat for 7 years continuous and have never let 
>> me down.  I run an old 1720 Furuno radar when I need it (fog or dark) and I 
>> run an Adler Barber in icebox refrigerator freezer.  I try to remember to 
>> manually cycle the fridge on and off since I disconnected the thermostat and 
>> now can’t remember which wires go where to reconnect it…Last season I left 
>> the boat unattended on the mooring for about 5 days but I forgot to turn off 
>> the fridge.  Much to my surprise after those 5 days there was still power 
>> left in the battery and the fridge was still cold and I have no added 
>> insulation around the ice box yet!!  I was able to start the engine from my 
>> start battery and recharge my house bank from the engine. Probably some 
>> sailors use more power on a regular basis than I do but 100 amps seems like 
>> a pretty high charge rate.  Would a 100 amp charge rate not be hard on the 
>> cells?
>> 
>>  
>> 
>>  
>> 
>> From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of Rich 
>> Knowles
>> Sent: December 18, 2013 8:38 AM
>> To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
>> Subject: Re: Stus-List Battery charger recommendations?
>> 
>>  
>> 
>> And to increase the presumptuous factor:
>> 
>>  
>> 
>> The alternators that were supplied as original equipment with most small 
>> boat engines until recently were from 35 - 55 A with internal, single 
>> voltage output regulators. A good percentage of the engines were destined 
>> for use in small motor vessels and these alternators were adequate for that 
>> application. For our use, which sees greatly increased loads from, as Rick 
>> notes, radar and refrigeration, and lengthy battery discharge periods 
>> between charges, those alternators are bordering on inadequate, and 
>> certainly not as efficient and appropriate as higher power units with mul

Re: Stus-List Battery charger recommendations? comment about alternators

[Rick Brass]

I think it likely that, when attached to shore power, your permanently
installed battery charger is maintaining the batteries as the shore power is
providing power to any AC outlets you have. That's one of the reasons that
you need a battery charger with a "float" charge rate. Charging the
batteries with 14+ volts full time (as the old fero-resonant chargers did)
or until the internal resistance was high enough to shut off the charger (as
a semi-old charger might do) will boil away the water in the batteries and
kill a set of batteries very quickly.

 

The 1.5 amp "trickle charger" you bought is probably delivering a tenth of
an amp or so at around 13v to maintain your batteries when in "Float" mode.
That sort of charger is good when you are day sailing and leave the boat
plugged in to shore power for long periods, but it will literally take days
to recharge a significantly discharged batter at just 1/5 amps max current.

 

You can verify that the shore power is powering your DC systems pretty
easily. Plug into shore power and turn off your DC systems.. Measure the
voltage across the terminals of your house bank with a voltmeter. If you see
13v or more, the battery charger is powering your DC system (up to the
maximum current that the 1.5 amp or the "OEM" charger can supply). If it is
12.5v or less, then it is not.

 

Rick Brass

 

From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of Curtis
Sent: Wednesday, December 18, 2013 10:33 AM
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
Subject: Re: Stus-List Battery charger recommendations? comment about
alternators

 

So here's a dumb question?

If I'm on shore power is just my battery charger and the DC outlets using
shore power or can I run the cabin lights and radio on the DC system? and if
so how?

 

 

On Wed, Dec 18, 2013 at 10:23 AM, Rick Brass 
wrote:

Dwight;

 

Rich and I were addressing the power systems for a boat used for long term
live aboard cruising. IIRC you are on a dock and use your boat for daysails
and the occasional weekend or vacation cruise. For than situation, the OEM
alternator is just fine.

 

Starting your engine draws somewhere around 200 amps for something around 30
seconds. That is less than 2 AH reduction in capacity. Add a 2 to 3%
reduction for self discharge over a month at the dock. Call it another 4 AH
on a typical  group 24 battery. So you need to put around 6 AH back into
your start battery while the engine runs, and the battery is probably at
around 95% charge when you start out, so there is high resistance to
charging and reduced acceptance rate. You probably need to run the engine
for 20 or 30 minutes to recharge the start battery.

 

All your boat systems except the bilge pump are turned off when at the dock,
except when you are on vacation. So you only have to replace the loss from
self discharge in your house bank. Two golf cart batteries is probably
around 275 AH capacity, times 3% per month, is around 8-9 AH. Your OEM
alternator is probably able to accomplish that while you motor out and raise
the sails.

 

I'm sort of surprised that the house bank was able to run your refrigeration
for 5 days. Most refrigeration systems seem to use 45 or more AH in a 24
hour period. But then, you are in the great white north so maybe the lower
average temperature differential reduces the cooling load and thus the
current draw.

 

Rick

 

From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of dwight
Sent: Wednesday, December 18, 2013 9:39 AM
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
Subject: Re: Stus-List Battery charger recommendations?

 

Hi Rich

 

I am not sure what my alternator output rating is but my ammeter never shows
more than 60 and even that is not for long as it settles out to between 15
and 30 fairly quickly, like after a a minute of steaming.  If I switch from
one battery bank to the other during steaming I can sometimes notice a
slight drag on the engine (it seems to slow down a bit) but even that is
momentary (a second or 2).  My house bank is two, 6 volt deep cycle
batteries connected in series and my start bank is one Group 24 deep
cycle.they have been on the boat for 7 years continuous and have never let
me down.  I run an old 1720 Furuno radar when I need it (fog or dark) and I
run an Adler Barber in icebox refrigerator freezer.  I try to remember to
manually cycle the fridge on and off since I disconnected the thermostat and
now can't remember which wires go where to reconnect it.Last season I left
the boat unattended on the mooring for about 5 days but I forgot to turn off
the fridge.  Much to my surprise after those 5 days there was still power
left in the battery and the fridge was still cold and I have no added
insulation around the ice box yet!!  I was able to start the engine from my
start battery and recharge my house bank from the engine. Probably some
sailors use more power on a regular basis than I do but 100 amps seems like
a pretty high charge rate.  Would a 100 amp charge rate not be hard on the

Re: Stus-List Battery charger recommendations?

[Rick Brass]

It's true that the space available for batteries is different, and adding
more capacity will be more difficult for Curtis. (And even on the 38, the
locker under my quarter berth was big enough for all 5 batteries in my 2
banks - though not deep enough for the GC5 batteries I had wanted to install
- but I had to modify the access in order to use all the space in the
locker.)

 

But the requirement for capacity will be driven by use and systems, not the
size of the boat. If cruising full time, Curtis's Admiral will want
refrigeration (instead of eating only canned food. She will want to take a
shower, so a water heater and a pressure water system. His first attempt to
navigate at night in a fog will make him want radar. Playing with the big
boats in the Gulf Stream off the Florida Coast will make him want AIS.

 

It's pernicious. The power requirement just keeps growing and growing. I bet
it even happens to Lynn and Larry Pardey.

 

Rick

 

From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of Gary
Nylander
Sent: Wednesday, December 18, 2013 10:56 AM
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
Subject: Re: Stus-List Battery charger recommendations?

 

Rick, I seem to remember that Curtis has a 30. He couldn't have near the
needs you do on your 38 or he would be all batteries in that smaller boat.

 

Gary

- Original Message - 

From: Rick Brass   

To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com 

Sent: Tuesday, December 17, 2013 7:45 PM

Subject: Re: Stus-List Battery charger recommendations?

 

Curtis;

 

At the risk of being presumptuous, I think you have the cart before the
horse.

 

If your intent is extended cruising - particularly offshore cruising where
you will not be using your engine for power (and to recharge the batteries)
every day - you will first need to think about the systems you have on board
and how much power they will draw. Refrigeration is a major draw. Radar?
Autopilot? What instruments? What lights? Power for entertainment like radio
or TV?  Small things like a 12 v electric coffee maker or a microwave draw a
shocking amount of power out of your batteries.

 

Once you know how many amp hours you will use on average, you can figure out
how many additional batteries you need, what type, and where to put them. My
average consumption right now is under 100 amp-hours/day. But I plan to run
refrigeration (45 more AH) and to anchor out for extended periods. So my
house bank is 4 deep cycle group 27 batteries with 460 AH capacity. That
gives 230 usable AH (50% discharge) and should let me go for 2 days between
charges. In addition I have a group 29 marine starting battery as a second
bank, and a deep cycle group 24 under the v-berth to power the head and the
anchor windlass.

 

The 400+ AH house bank dictates at least a 40amp, multi bank charger. I have
an older Xantrex 40+ wired to the house and starting bank. There is a solar
charger for the group 24 battery that is OK for now, but I plan to install
an ACR that will top up the charge on that battery when I'm hooked to shore
power or running the engine.

 

To put 100 AH into my house bank by running the engine (with a 45 amp
alternator installed) will take at least 3 hours of run time - which is OK
when I'm traveling on the ICW but not acceptable when at anchor. SO I plan
to install a bank of solar panels over the Bimini, and maybe a wind
generator as well, to maintain the batteries at anchor.

 

As you can see, the process starts with determining how much power you will
be using each day, and that will depend on what systems you have installed
for cruising.

 

You said you had an "OEM" battery charger installed. Probably not really
OEM, but the question is: is it still working? If it is, spend your money on
the other systems you will be installing, and the additional batteries, and
worry about a new (probably more efficient) charger in 2017 or so.

 

 

Rick Brass

Washington, NC

 

 

 

From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of Curtis
Sent: Tuesday, December 17, 2013 1:16 PM
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
Subject: Re: Stus-List Battery charger recommendations?

 

I picked up the one noted above to maintain the battery's. In my first post
I was trying to explain I needed something to keep the batt's charged while
sailing ever couple of weeks. "For Now" In  2018 We hope to shove off for
some extended cruising. 

I will need to install a Good expensive on board fixed mount bank charger.
This is what I was hoping to get advice on. the Good one that will give me a
charge on all my batt's when I come in from off shore. 

Sorry for the confusion.

 

 

 

 

On Tue, Dec 17, 2013 at 12:52 PM, Josh Muckley  wrote:

Evidently, we all misunderstood the question.  The battery minder is
advertised to provide a "de-sufating" pulse charge to prevent loss of
capacity.  This is fine and may or may not add value for your purpose.  Had
any of us realized that you simply wanted to keep the batteries from se

Re: Stus-List Mexico... [was Crack where keel meets hull]

[Rick Brass]

Fred, I feel for you. I lived for 7 years in Bismarck, ND - where a good
warm day in January is about 5 below.

 

But any tears I shed would be crocodile tears. I love Minneapolis/St. Paul
but I'm not sure that even last night's lottery winners would have enough
money to get me to move back to the frozen North.

 

Rick

 

From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of Frederick
G Street
Sent: Wednesday, December 18, 2013 10:36 AM
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
Subject: Re: Stus-List Mexico... [was Crack where keel meets hull]

 

Ummm. yeah, particularly this year.

 


Fred Street -- Minneapolis
S/V Oceanis (1979 C&C Landfall 38) -- on the hard in Bayfield, WI   :^(

 

 

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Re: Stus-List Raised floor boards [was Crack where keel meets hull]

[Peter]

Thanks for all the great feedback, sounds as though I only have a cosmetic 
issue with the crack to deal with. As I am only going cruising for four months 
I'll probably just leave it.

As for having bought Outrider, I have had her since 07. Contemplated selling 
her for a while - if you are reefing to listing on Yachtworld a couple of years 
ago, that would have been during that time. Think I am going to be hanging on 
to her for some time longer...

One other thing I noticed was that after the boat has sat on the hard for a 
long period of time, the floorboards don't sit flat. I suspect that sitting on 
the keel pushes up the sole. After a couple of months back in the water the 
floor settles back down. 

Normal stuff?

Thanks,
Peter



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Re: Stus-List Battery charger recommendations?

[Frederick G Street]

I asked them about that when we had them to dinner several years back.  Really. 
 They were in Minneapolis for a seminar I helped organize.  Great people.

They still use oil-based nav and anchor lights.  Larry’s pretty adamant about 
being a “purist” on his hand-built wooden boats.  They also still use a scull 
to get in and out of anchorages, as their boats haven’t had engines.


Fred Street -- Minneapolis
S/V Oceanis (1979 C&C Landfall 38) -- on the hard in Bayfield, WI   :^(

On Dec 18, 2013, at 11:10 AM, Rick Brass  wrote:

> I bet it even happens to Lynn and Larry Pardey.

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Re: Stus-List Battery charger recommendations?

[Curtis]

I forgot I do have pressurized fresh water. But its not heated. An what I
was fingering out is that C&C 30MK1 will be o.k for the first summer? and
she the Admiral will want to move up to a bigger more equipped boat for
extended cruising. This would be a great boat to learn on and then move to
a  36' / 42' when I have her sold on the life aboard. She will be
begging for the luxuries you speak of. hot water a/c refrigeration ect...


On Wed, Dec 18, 2013 at 12:47 PM, Frederick G Street wrote:

> I asked them about that when we had them to dinner several years back.
>  Really.  They were in Minneapolis for a seminar I helped organize.  Great
> people.
>
> They still use oil-based nav and anchor lights.  Larry’s pretty adamant
> about being a “purist” on his hand-built wooden boats.  They also still use
> a scull to get in and out of anchorages, as their boats haven’t had engines.
>
>
> Fred Street -- Minneapolis
> S/V Oceanis (1979 C&C Landfall 38) -- on the hard in Bayfield, WI   :^(
>
> On Dec 18, 2013, at 11:10 AM, Rick Brass  wrote:
>
> I bet it even happens to Lynn and Larry Pardey.
>
>
>
> ___
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>


-- 
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should really be running the world.” - Nicholas Monsarrat
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Re: Stus-List Battery charger recommendations?

[Wally Bryant]

Yeah, I have to admit I didn't get my power consumption estimates 
right.  It worked out okay when I had high capacity Trojans on board, 
but these Mexican golf cart batteries have about half the capacity, 
which means a daily recharging regimen.  And, of course, it doesn't help 
that I discovered that my 12V TV can play .avi movies on a flash drive! 
I just spent a week on the hook watching 'Breaking Bad' Season 1 through 
5 non-stop.  Doing stuff like that wasn't part of the initial power budget.


Thank goodness for my little quiet Honda 2000 watt generator. (smile)

Wal

Curtis wrote:

Wow. You guys have gone deep with the power consumption and recharging
principles. You have open my eyes to a big project moving forward. Keep in
mind my wife and I will not need much power. Bet you have heard that before
from people starting out. HAHAh.



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Re: Stus-List Battery charger recommendations? comment aboutalternators

[dwight]

Yes, that surprised me too, I think that was back in June and I don't
remember the daytime temps but nights can be chilly around here in June,
probably was cold and rainy for a few days, otherwise I would have been down
on the boat and turned things off sooner. I like spending sunny afternoon
time on the mooring, I am on the water and not much work involved.my dog is
OK to spend a few hours there, while I putter around, cleaning, fixing,
polishing, listening to the stereo (country) and relaxing with a cigar and a
drink or two before suppertime.might sound boring but it's a pretty good
life.then he gets restless and wants off so we go ashore for supper, much
less trouble than supper on the boat.the ice box was almost empty except for
a few beverages.and you are correct, we don't live aboard much anymore,
that's a long story that has a lot to do with that same little dog.maybe
soon we become land cruisers, those small mobile homes are starting to look
attractive and sometimes you run into a lot more company and good parties at
parks than you do anchored off in a sailboat, but I will probably always
have a boat moored down back. 

 

  _  

From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of Rick
Brass
Sent: December 18, 2013 11:23 AM
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
Subject: Re: Stus-List Battery charger recommendations? comment
aboutalternators

 

Dwight;

 

Rich and I were addressing the power systems for a boat used for long term
live aboard cruising. IIRC you are on a dock and use your boat for daysails
and the occasional weekend or vacation cruise. For than situation, the OEM
alternator is just fine.

 

Starting your engine draws somewhere around 200 amps for something around 30
seconds. That is less than 2 AH reduction in capacity. Add a 2 to 3%
reduction for self discharge over a month at the dock. Call it another 4 AH
on a typical  group 24 battery. So you need to put around 6 AH back into
your start battery while the engine runs, and the battery is probably at
around 95% charge when you start out, so there is high resistance to
charging and reduced acceptance rate. You probably need to run the engine
for 20 or 30 minutes to recharge the start battery.

 

All your boat systems except the bilge pump are turned off when at the dock,
except when you are on vacation. So you only have to replace the loss from
self discharge in your house bank. Two golf cart batteries is probably
around 275 AH capacity, times 3% per month, is around 8-9 AH. Your OEM
alternator is probably able to accomplish that while you motor out and raise
the sails.

 

I'm sort of surprised that the house bank was able to run your refrigeration
for 5 days. Most refrigeration systems seem to use 45 or more AH in a 24
hour period. But then, you are in the great white north so maybe the lower
average temperature differential reduces the cooling load and thus the
current draw.

 

Rick

 

From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of dwight
Sent: Wednesday, December 18, 2013 9:39 AM
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
Subject: Re: Stus-List Battery charger recommendations?

 

Hi Rich

 

I am not sure what my alternator output rating is but my ammeter never shows
more than 60 and even that is not for long as it settles out to between 15
and 30 fairly quickly, like after a a minute of steaming.  If I switch from
one battery bank to the other during steaming I can sometimes notice a
slight drag on the engine (it seems to slow down a bit) but even that is
momentary (a second or 2).  My house bank is two, 6 volt deep cycle
batteries connected in series and my start bank is one Group 24 deep
cycle.they have been on the boat for 7 years continuous and have never let
me down.  I run an old 1720 Furuno radar when I need it (fog or dark) and I
run an Adler Barber in icebox refrigerator freezer.  I try to remember to
manually cycle the fridge on and off since I disconnected the thermostat and
now can't remember which wires go where to reconnect it.Last season I left
the boat unattended on the mooring for about 5 days but I forgot to turn off
the fridge.  Much to my surprise after those 5 days there was still power
left in the battery and the fridge was still cold and I have no added
insulation around the ice box yet!!  I was able to start the engine from my
start battery and recharge my house bank from the engine. Probably some
sailors use more power on a regular basis than I do but 100 amps seems like
a pretty high charge rate.  Would a 100 amp charge rate not be hard on the
cells?

 

 

  _  

From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of Rich
Knowles
Sent: December 18, 2013 8:38 AM
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
Subject: Re: Stus-List Battery charger recommendations?

 

And to increase the presumptuous factor:

 

The alternators that were supplied as original equipment with most small
boat engines until recently were from 35 - 55 A with internal, single
voltage output regulators. A good percenta

Re: Stus-List Raymarine EV-100 Autopilot

[Joel Aronson]

I have an X-5 wheelpilot on my 35/3.  It is the predecessor to the current
model.  Install was straightforward despite a 75 page manual.  Integration
with my plotter was easy with NMEA 2000.  I did it with no help and no
prior experience.  Total time was 12 hours, but if I had help (or fewer
wires in my binnacle guard), I could have done it in less than 1/2 that
time.
It works great in a steady breeze, but on a broad reach in gusty conditions
it has a hard time holding the course.  Probably more to do with sail trim
and balance than any fault in the unit.

Joel


On Tue, Dec 17, 2013 at 8:43 PM, dwight  wrote:

>I found that having a rudder angle indicator is very useful, but
> OTOH installing the sensor on the quadrant of my 35 MKII was a real big
> PITA…so much so that I put off installing it for over 2 years and tried
> with very poor results to use my new wheel pilot.  I have the Raymarine 
> ST4000 MKII plus wheel pilot and it has worked very well on my 35 MKII but
> only after I installed the rudder sensor.  The ST 4000MKII plus would not
> hold a course with only the signal from the fluxgate compass, it was lost
> without that rudder sensor signal, whereas the older unit it replaced did
> not need a rudder sensor signal to hold a course. Not sure about the newer
> Raymarine wheel pilots.
>
>
>  --
>
> *From:* CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] *On Behalf Of 
> *bobmor99
> .
> *Sent:* December 17, 2013 9:14 PM
> *To:* cnc-list@cnc-list.com
> *Subject:* Stus-List Raymarine EV-100 Autopilot
>
>
>
> I've been daydreaming about getting an autopilot for oXmas.
>
> Any opinions or experience with Raymarine's fairly new "Evolution" wheel
> autopilot?
>
>
>
> At most I'll be coastal cruising, perhaps one day to the Florida Keys
> (starting from North Florida). The EV-100 Wheel system looks appropriate
> for Ox.
>
> http://www.raymarine.com/view/?id=6866
>
>
>
> The new sensor core (EV-1) has obviated the need for a fluxgate compass
> but a rudder reference unit (not included) is still required.
>
>
>
> Any opinions or experience with rudder reference units and whether vendor
> interoperability could be an issue?
>
> I'm guessing they are just some sort potentiometer putting out a variable
> voltage.
>
>
>
> Link to control unit mini-specs:
>
>
>
> http://www.raymarine.com/view/?id=7725&collectionid=82&col=7717
>
>
>
>
>
> Thanks much in advance,
>
>
>
> Bob M
>
> Ox 33-1
>
> Jax, FL
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>   --
>
> No virus found in this message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> Version: 2012.0.2247 / Virus Database: 3658/6428 - Release Date: 12/17/13
>
> ___
> This List is provided by the C&C Photo Album
> http://www.cncphotoalbum.com
> CnC-List@cnc-list.com
>
>


-- 
Joel
301 541 8551
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Re: Stus-List Mexico... [was Crack where keel meets hull]

[Ronald B. Frerker]

Fred,
Were you in MPLS the year in the mid to late sixties when the entire month of 
JAN was below zero?
Coldest day was 39 below with a number in the 20 below range.
Ice boaters couldn't even play on some of those days; skates wouldn't slide 
well.
Ron
Wild Cheri





On Wednesday, December 18, 2013 9:36 AM, Frederick G Street 
 wrote:
 
On Dec 17, 2013, at 8:16 PM, Rick Brass  wrote:

I bet Fred Street still thinks about how much nicer than Minnesota Mexico
>would be in the winter.

Ummm… yeah, particularly this year…

http://brainerddispatch.com/weather/2013-12-15/coldest-december-stretch-41-years


Fred Street -- Minneapolis

S/V Oceanis (1979 C&C Landfall 38) -- on the hard in Bayfield, WI   :^(



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Re: Stus-List Raymarine EV-100 Autopilot

[Eric Frank]

Same result with the X-5 on my 35/2.  But I see the same behavior when I am 
steering myself:  it's so easy to keep on course going up wind or close 
reaching - the boat practically sails itself.  But on a broad reach or straight 
downwind, especially with waves, it takes constant attention.  So I forgive the 
autopilot for its similar behavior - would be embarrassing if it did much 
better than I can even when I am trying!

Eric

> From: Joel Aronson 
> To: "cnc-list@cnc-list.com" 
> Subject: Re: Stus-List Raymarine EV-100 Autopilot
> Message-ID:
>   
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252"
> 
> I have an X-5 wheelpilot on my 35/3.  It is the predecessor to the current
> model.  Install was straightforward despite a 75 page manual.  Integration
> with my plotter was easy with NMEA 2000.  I did it with no help and no
> prior experience.  Total time was 12 hours, but if I had help (or fewer
> wires in my binnacle guard), I could have done it in less than 1/2 that
> time.
> It works great in a steady breeze, but on a broad reach in gusty conditions
> it has a hard time holding the course.  Probably more to do with sail trim
> and balance than any fault in the unit.
> 
> Joel
> 

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Re: Stus-List Raised floor boards [was Crack where keel meets hull]

[dwight]

I don't think that is normal stuff on a 35MKII, at least not on mine

-Original Message-
From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of Peter
Sent: December 18, 2013 1:46 PM
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
Subject: Re: Stus-List Raised floor boards [was Crack where keel meets hull]

Thanks for all the great feedback, sounds as though I only have a cosmetic
issue with the crack to deal with. As I am only going cruising for four
months I'll probably just leave it.

As for having bought Outrider, I have had her since 07. Contemplated selling
her for a while - if you are reefing to listing on Yachtworld a couple of
years ago, that would have been during that time. Think I am going to be
hanging on to her for some time longer...

One other thing I noticed was that after the boat has sat on the hard for a
long period of time, the floorboards don't sit flat. I suspect that sitting
on the keel pushes up the sole. After a couple of months back in the water
the floor settles back down. 

Normal stuff?

Thanks,
Peter



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Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
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Re: Stus-List Battery charger recommendations?

[dwight]

I have a quiet 2000 Honda generator...it's not that small

-Original Message-
From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of Wally
Bryant
Sent: December 18, 2013 2:27 PM
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
Subject: Re: Stus-List Battery charger recommendations?

Yeah, I have to admit I didn't get my power consumption estimates 
right.  It worked out okay when I had high capacity Trojans on board, 
but these Mexican golf cart batteries have about half the capacity, 
which means a daily recharging regimen.  And, of course, it doesn't help 
that I discovered that my 12V TV can play .avi movies on a flash drive! 
I just spent a week on the hook watching 'Breaking Bad' Season 1 through 
5 non-stop.  Doing stuff like that wasn't part of the initial power budget.

Thank goodness for my little quiet Honda 2000 watt generator. (smile)

Wal

Curtis wrote:
> Wow. You guys have gone deep with the power consumption and recharging
> principles. You have open my eyes to a big project moving forward. Keep in
> mind my wife and I will not need much power. Bet you have heard that
before
> from people starting out. HAHAh.


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Re: Stus-List Raised floor boards [was Crack where keel meets hull]

[Rick Brass]

When my 76 model 38 was on the hard for an 18 month refit/upgrade I did not
notice any problems with the cabin sole. I did, however, discover it isn't a
good idea to leave the back stay tensioned when the boat is out of the
water.

Perhaps your yard is putting more weight on the keel than appropriate. Can
you tighten the jack stands to put more weight on the hull? And does that
correct the situation?

Rick Brass

-Original Message-
From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of Peter
Sent: Wednesday, December 18, 2013 12:46 PM
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
Subject: Re: Stus-List Raised floor boards [was Crack where keel meets hull]

Thanks for all the great feedback, sounds as though I only have a cosmetic
issue with the crack to deal with. As I am only going cruising for four
months I'll probably just leave it.

As for having bought Outrider, I have had her since 07. Contemplated selling
her for a while - if you are reefing to listing on Yachtworld a couple of
years ago, that would have been during that time. Think I am going to be
hanging on to her for some time longer...

One other thing I noticed was that after the boat has sat on the hard for a
long period of time, the floorboards don't sit flat. I suspect that sitting
on the keel pushes up the sole. After a couple of months back in the water
the floor settles back down. 

Normal stuff?

Thanks,
Peter



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Re: Stus-List Raised floor boards [was Crack where keel meets hull]

[Josh Muckley]

Some flexing is normal.  Sometimes the doors stop latching...that type of
stuff.  I've never heard of the floors moving.  I would pull the floor
boards just to be sure thing are ok.

Josh
On Dec 18, 2013 12:45 PM, "Peter"  wrote:

> Thanks for all the great feedback, sounds as though I only have a cosmetic
> issue with the crack to deal with. As I am only going cruising for four
> months I'll probably just leave it.
>
> As for having bought Outrider, I have had her since 07. Contemplated
> selling her for a while - if you are reefing to listing on Yachtworld a
> couple of years ago, that would have been during that time. Think I am
> going to be hanging on to her for some time longer...
>
> One other thing I noticed was that after the boat has sat on the hard for
> a long period of time, the floorboards don't sit flat. I suspect that
> sitting on the keel pushes up the sole. After a couple of months back in
> the water the floor settles back down.
>
> Normal stuff?
>
> Thanks,
> Peter
>
>
>
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Re: Stus-List Raised floor boards [was Crack where keel meets hull]

[Dennis C.]

When one puts a boat on the hard, there's several things to consider.


* Locating the stands on bulkheads so you don't depress/deform the hull
* Leveling the boat so the cockpit drains (some cockpits drain forward, 
some aft)
* Achieving a good balance of weight on keel vs stands




>
> From: Peter 
>To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com 
>Sent: Wednesday, December 18, 2013 11:45 AM
>Subject: Re: Stus-List Raised floor boards [was Crack where keel meets hull]
> 
>
>Thanks for all the great feedback, sounds as though I only have a cosmetic 
>issue with the crack to deal with. As I am only going cruising for four months 
>I'll probably just leave it.
>
>As for having bought Outrider, I have had her since 07. Contemplated selling 
>her for a while - if you are reefing to listing on Yachtworld a couple of 
>years ago, that would have been during that time. Think I am going to be 
>hanging on to her for some time longer...
>
>One other thing I noticed was that after the boat has sat on the hard for a 
>long period of time, the floorboards don't sit flat. I suspect that sitting on 
>the keel pushes up the sole. After a couple of months back in the water the 
>floor settles back down. 
>
>Normal stuff?
>
>Thanks,
>Peter
>
>
>
>
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Re: Stus-List Raised floor boards [was Crack where keel meets hull]

[Josh Muckley]

Have you had a survey.   That kinda sounds like the type of flex you might
expect if the hull delaminated or had a rotting core.  For your sake, I
hope not.  Better to find out now than when you're taking a beating and
things go real bad.

Josh
On Dec 18, 2013 12:45 PM, "Peter"  wrote:

> Thanks for all the great feedback, sounds as though I only have a cosmetic
> issue with the crack to deal with. As I am only going cruising for four
> months I'll probably just leave it.
>
> As for having bought Outrider, I have had her since 07. Contemplated
> selling her for a while - if you are reefing to listing on Yachtworld a
> couple of years ago, that would have been during that time. Think I am
> going to be hanging on to her for some time longer...
>
> One other thing I noticed was that after the boat has sat on the hard for
> a long period of time, the floorboards don't sit flat. I suspect that
> sitting on the keel pushes up the sole. After a couple of months back in
> the water the floor settles back down.
>
> Normal stuff?
>
> Thanks,
> Peter
>
>
>
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Re: Stus-List Raised floor boards [was Crack where keel meets hull]

[Dennis C.]

Sent it before finishing.

I continue.

Balancing the weight between keel and stands is subject for debate.  
Conventional wisdom says nearly all the weight should be on the keel with the 
stands just for holding the boat upright.  

I like a bit more weight on the stands as long as they're on bulkheads.

Dennis C.




>
> From: Dennis C. 
>To: "cnc-list@cnc-list.com"  
>Sent: Wednesday, December 18, 2013 1:26 PM
>Subject: Re: Stus-List Raised floor boards [was Crack where keel meets hull]
> 
>
>
>When one puts a boat on the hard, there's several things to consider.
>
>
>   * Locating the stands on bulkheads so you don't depress/deform the hull
>   * Leveling the boat so the cockpit drains (some cockpits drain forward, 
> some aft)
>   * Achieving a good balance of weight on keel vs stands
>
>
>
>
>
>
>>
>> From: Peter 
>>To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com 
>>Sent: Wednesday, December 18, 2013 11:45 AM
>>Subject: Re: Stus-List Raised floor boards [was Crack where keel meets hull]
>> 
>>
>>Thanks for all the great feedback, sounds as though I only have a cosmetic 
>>issue with the crack to deal with. As I am only going cruising for four 
>>months I'll probably just leave it.
>>
>>As for having bought Outrider, I have had her since 07. Contemplated selling 
>>her for a while - if you are reefing to listing on
 Yachtworld a couple of years ago, that would have been during that time. Think 
I am going to be hanging on to her for some time longer...
>>
>>One other thing I noticed was that after the boat has sat on the hard for a 
>>long period of time, the floorboards don't sit flat. I suspect that sitting 
>>on the keel pushes up the sole. After a couple of months back in the water 
>>the floor settles back down. 
>>
>>Normal stuff?
>>
>>Thanks,
>>Peter
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>___
>>This List is provided by the C&C Photo Album
>>http://www.cncphotoalbum.com
>>CnC-List@cnc-list.com
>>
>>
>>
>
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Re: Stus-List Raised floor boards [was Crack where keel meets hull]

[dwight]

Also

 

Check the stands regularly and adjust as required if the ground freezes and
thaws where you store your boat

 

  _  

From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of Dennis C.
Sent: December 18, 2013 3:26 PM
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
Subject: Re: Stus-List Raised floor boards [was Crack where keel meets hull]

 

When one puts a boat on the hard, there's several things to consider.

* Locating the stands on bulkheads so you don't depress/deform the
hull

* Leveling the boat so the cockpit drains (some cockpits drain
forward, some aft)

* Achieving a good balance of weight on keel vs stands

 

 


  _  


From: Peter 
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com 
Sent: Wednesday, December 18, 2013 11:45 AM
Subject: Re: Stus-List Raised floor boards [was Crack where keel meets hull]


Thanks for all the great feedback, sounds as though I only have a cosmetic
issue with the crack to deal with. As I am only going cruising for four
months I'll probably just leave it.

As for having bought Outrider, I have had her since 07. Contemplated selling
her for a while - if you are reefing to listing on Yachtworld a couple of
years ago, that would have been during that time. Think I am going to be
hanging on to her for some time longer...

One other thing I noticed was that after the boat has sat on the hard for a
long period of time, the floorboards don't sit flat. I suspect that sitting
on the keel pushes up the sole. After a couple of months back in the water
the floor settles back down. 

Normal stuff?

Thanks,
Peter





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  _  

No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 2012.0.2247 / Virus Database: 3658/6430 - Release Date: 12/18/13

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Re: Stus-List Raised floor boards [was Crack where keel meets hull]

[Martin DeYoung]

Peter,

Are the boards warped from drying out or is the hull distorted?  Also, are the 
boards the large piece plywood type or the solid teak strips with gaps to allow 
water to drain into the bilge? (I have seen both in a 39)

Martin
Calypso
1971 C&C 43
Seattle

-Original Message-
From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of Peter
Sent: Wednesday, December 18, 2013 9:46 AM
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
Subject: Re: Stus-List Raised floor boards [was Crack where keel meets hull]

Thanks for all the great feedback, sounds as though I only have a cosmetic 
issue with the crack to deal with. As I am only going cruising for four months 
I'll probably just leave it.

As for having bought Outrider, I have had her since 07. Contemplated selling 
her for a while - if you are reefing to listing on Yachtworld a couple of years 
ago, that would have been during that time. Think I am going to be hanging on 
to her for some time longer...

One other thing I noticed was that after the boat has sat on the hard for a 
long period of time, the floorboards don't sit flat. I suspect that sitting on 
the keel pushes up the sole. After a couple of months back in the water the 
floor settles back down. 

Normal stuff?

Thanks,
Peter



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Re: Stus-List Mexico... [was Crack where keel meets hull]

[Frederick G Street]

Ron — I’ve lived here all my life, so since late 1959.  So yes, I apparently 
survived that winter (although I don’t particularly remember it per se…), as 
well as many subsequent ones.  How about early winter 1982, when we got 36” of 
snow in an afternoon/evening?  Or the year in the early 70’s when I still had 
my paper route, and walked around delivering newspapers in -60F windchill and 
blizzard conditions?

Kinda makes one wonder why we live here, doesn’t it?   :^)   But it does make 
the sailing season sweeter.

Fred Street -- Minneapolis
S/V Oceanis (1979 C&C Landfall 38) -- on the hard in Bayfield, WI   :^(

On Dec 18, 2013, at 12:45 PM, Ronald B. Frerker  wrote:

> Fred,
> Were you in MPLS the year in the mid to late sixties when the entire month of 
> JAN was below zero?
> Coldest day was 39 below with a number in the 20 below range.
> Ice boaters couldn't even play on some of those days; skates wouldn't slide 
> well.
> Ron
> Wild Cheri

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Re: Stus-List Raised floor boards [was Crack where keel meets hull]

[sam.c.salter]

Just been reading my original C&C manual from 1977. (It’s in amazing good 
condition for 36 years old!)

Says in there to put “at least 60% of the weight of the yacht on the keel”.

…and not to “put weight on the keel further aft than the last keel bolt. 
Extreme aft tip of the keel is very thin”.

Not sure how your supposed to know when you’ve got 60% on the keel.






sam :-)

C&C 26  Liquorice

Ghost Lake  Alberta








From: Dennis C.
Sent: ‎Wednesday‎, ‎December‎ ‎18‎, ‎2013 ‎12‎:‎30‎ ‎PM
To: Dennis C., cnc-list@cnc-list.com





Sent it before finishing.

I continue.

Balancing the weight between keel and stands is subject for debate.  
Conventional wisdom says nearly all the weight should be on the keel with the 
stands just for holding the boat upright.  

I like a bit more weight on the stands as long as they're on bulkheads.

Dennis C.












From: Dennis C. 
To: "cnc-list@cnc-list.com"  
Sent: Wednesday, December 18, 2013 1:26 PM
Subject: Re: Stus-List Raised floor boards [was Crack where keel meets hull]
 





When one puts a boat on the hard, there's several things to consider.

Locating the stands on bulkheads so you don't depress/deform the hull
Leveling the boat so the cockpit drains (some cockpits drain forward, some aft)
Achieving a good balance of weight on keel vs stands














From: Peter 
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com 
Sent: Wednesday, December 18, 2013 11:45 AM
Subject: Re: Stus-List Raised floor boards [was Crack where keel meets hull]
 


Thanks for all the great feedback, sounds as though I only have a cosmetic 
issue with the crack to deal with. As I am only going cruising for four months 
I'll probably just leave it.

As for having bought Outrider, I have had her since 07. Contemplated selling 
her for a while - if you are reefing to listing on Yachtworld a couple of years 
ago, that would have been during that time. Think I am going to be hanging on 
to her for some time longer...

One other thing I noticed was that after the boat has sat on the hard for a 
long period of time, the floorboards don't sit flat. I suspect that sitting on 
the keel pushes up the sole. After a couple of months back in the water the 
floor settles back down. 

Normal stuff?

Thanks,
Peter




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Re: Stus-List Raised floor boards [was Crack where keel meets hull]

[Joel Aronson]

You'll need a really big fisherman's scale to attach to the lift straps!

Joel


On Wed, Dec 18, 2013 at 3:14 PM,  wrote:

>  Just been reading my original C&C manual from 1977. (It’s in amazing
> good condition for 36 years old!)
> Says in there to put “at least 60% of the weight of the yacht on the keel”.
> …and not to “put weight on the keel further aft than the last keel bolt.
> Extreme aft tip of the keel is very thin”.
> Not sure how your supposed to know when you’ve got 60% on the keel.
>
> sam :-)
> C&C 26  Liquorice
> Ghost Lake  Alberta
>
>
> *From:* Dennis C. 
> *Sent:* Wednesday, December 18, 2013 12:30 PM
> *To:* Dennis C. , cnc-list@cnc-list.com
>
> Sent it before finishing.
>
> I continue.
>
> Balancing the weight between keel and stands is subject for debate.
> Conventional wisdom says nearly all the weight should be on the keel with
> the stands just for holding the boat upright.
>
> I like a bit more weight on the stands as long as they're on bulkheads.
>
> Dennis C.
>
>
>   --
>  *From:* Dennis C. 
> *To:* "cnc-list@cnc-list.com" 
> *Sent:* Wednesday, December 18, 2013 1:26 PM
> *Subject:* Re: Stus-List Raised floor boards [was Crack where keel meets
> hull]
>
> When one puts a boat on the hard, there's several things to consider.
>
>
>- Locating the stands on bulkheads so you don't depress/deform the hull
>- Leveling the boat so the cockpit drains (some cockpits drain
>forward, some aft)
>- Achieving a good balance of weight on keel vs stands
>
>
>
>   --
>  *From:* Peter 
> *To:* cnc-list@cnc-list.com
> *Sent:* Wednesday, December 18, 2013 11:45 AM
> *Subject:* Re: Stus-List Raised floor boards [was Crack where keel meets
> hull]
>
> Thanks for all the great feedback, sounds as though I only have a cosmetic
> issue with the crack to deal with. As I am only going cruising for four
> months I'll probably just leave it.
>
> As for having bought Outrider, I have had her since 07. Contemplated
> selling her for a while - if you are reefing to listing on Yachtworld a
> couple of years ago, that would have been during that time. Think I am
> going to be hanging on to her for some time longer...
>
> One other thing I noticed was that after the boat has sat on the hard for
> a long period of time, the floorboards don't sit flat. I suspect that
> sitting on the keel pushes up the sole. After a couple of months back in
> the water the floor settles back down.
>
> Normal stuff?
>
> Thanks,
> Peter
>
>
>
>
> ___
> This List is provided by the C&C Photo Album
> http://www.cncphotoalbum.com
> CnC-List@cnc-list.com
>
>
>
> ___
> This List is provided by the C&C Photo Album
> http://www.cncphotoalbum.com
> CnC-List@cnc-list.com
>
>
>
> ___
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> CnC-List@cnc-list.com
>
>


-- 
Joel
301 541 8551
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Stus-List Now hauling and blocking - weight distribution and other items

[Dennis C.]

Good question, Sam.

A REALLY good yard would have a scale  Maybe they could use the scale on 
their Travelift???  I may have to ask my yard.

I use Pensacola Shipyard and I always thought they were first rate.  No 
discussion of weight distribution.  Before haulout, they show me a picture of a 
C&C 35 to ensure they know what the underbody looks like and where the keel and 
prop shaft are.  Just in case, I keep a picture of Touche' hauled out on my 
cell phone so I can show them.  I suggest all listers have a pic of your boat 
hauled out to show to the yard.

Also, mark where the slings should go.  I tie a piece of leech cord to the toe 
rail where I want the slings.  The commonly accepted symbol is a diamond just 
below the toe rail.  It can be painted or tape.

 I'm always there when the yard blocks Touche'.  I ask them to block it 
slightly bow down so the cockpit drains.  

I need to start bringing a one line diagram to locate the bulkheads.  Now we 
just whack the hull to find them.

Might have to work up a pre-haul out check list and a post-haul out check list. 
 Like inspecting all the thruhulls for blockage prior to splash.  I had 2 of 
them clogged after the last haul out.  One was the engine cooling water.  Still 
don't know why.

Dennis C.
Touche' 35-1 #83
Mandeville, LA






>
> From: "sam.c.sal...@gmail.com" 
>To: "cnc-list@cnc-list.com"  
>Sent: Wednesday, December 18, 2013 2:14 PM
>Subject: Re: Stus-List Raised floor boards [was Crack where keel meets hull]
> 
>
>
>Just been reading my original C&C manual from 1977. (It’s in amazing good 
>condition for 36 years old!)
>Says in there to put “at least 60% of the weight of the yacht on the keel”.
>…and not to “put weight on the keel further aft than the last keel bolt. 
>Extreme aft tip of the keel is very thin”.
>Not sure how your supposed to know when you’ve got 60% on the keel.
>
>
>
>sam :-)
>C&C 26  Liquorice
>Ghost Lake  Alberta
>
>
>
>
>From: Dennis C.
>Sent: ‎Wednesday‎, ‎December‎ ‎18‎, ‎2013 ‎12‎:‎30‎ ‎PM
>To: Dennis C., cnc-list@cnc-list.com
>
>
>Sent it before finishing.
>
>I continue.
>
>Balancing the weight between keel and stands is subject for debate.  
>Conventional wisdom says nearly all the weight should be on the keel with the 
>stands just for holding the boat upright.  
>
>I like a bit more weight on the stands as long as they're on bulkheads.
>
>Dennis C.
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Re: Stus-List Raised floor boards [was Crack where keel meets hull]

[Wally Bryant]

Some Travellifts have integral scales, so they could lower it onto the 
blocks until the scales read 40 percent of the original weight, and then 
place the jack stands.


Note that the scales may not be calibrated accurately, or the operator 
may not really know how to use them. One time I had a travellift 
operator tell me that Stella Blue was a really heavy boat. He said it 
weighed 24,000 pounds. Now, I'll admit I have the boat overloaded for 
cruising, but if my boat displaces 24K pounds the waterline would be 
about even with the toe rails. 


However, you could just use 40 percent of whatever the scale says.

Wal

sam wrote:

Not sure how your supposed to know when you’ve got 60% on the keel.



--
s/v Stella Blue
www.wbryant.com


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Re: Stus-List Raymarine EV-100 Autopilot

[David]

My Autohelm 7000 shocked me when it held a great course in short 10'-12' 
quartering seas on a run from Block to Buzzards Bay.   

My conclusion is that If the auto is set up right (underdeck) it should handle 
a variety of conditions.  

David F. Risch
1981 40-2
(401) 419-4650 (cell)


> From: efran...@mac.com
> Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2013 13:49:56 -0500
> To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
> Subject: Re: Stus-List Raymarine EV-100 Autopilot
> 
> Same result with the X-5 on my 35/2.  But I see the same behavior when I am 
> steering myself:  it's so easy to keep on course going up wind or close 
> reaching - the boat practically sails itself.  But on a broad reach or 
> straight downwind, especially with waves, it takes constant attention.  So I 
> forgive the autopilot for its similar behavior - would be embarrassing if it 
> did much better than I can even when I am trying!
> 
> Eric
> 
> > From: Joel Aronson 
> > To: "cnc-list@cnc-list.com" 
> > Subject: Re: Stus-List Raymarine EV-100 Autopilot
> > Message-ID:
> > 
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252"
> > 
> > I have an X-5 wheelpilot on my 35/3.  It is the predecessor to the current
> > model.  Install was straightforward despite a 75 page manual.  Integration
> > with my plotter was easy with NMEA 2000.  I did it with no help and no
> > prior experience.  Total time was 12 hours, but if I had help (or fewer
> > wires in my binnacle guard), I could have done it in less than 1/2 that
> > time.
> > It works great in a steady breeze, but on a broad reach in gusty conditions
> > it has a hard time holding the course.  Probably more to do with sail trim
> > and balance than any fault in the unit.
> > 
> > Joel
> > 
> 
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Stus-List lyn &larry pardy electrical

[Jimmy Kelly]

was docked next to them in victoria bc a few years agonever  saw them
actually pluged in to shore power..they are truly self sufficient 
 appeared  most happy without all electrical  junk on boats today..do
we really need refrigeration pressure hot water  radar  ...hand held gps is
nice as well as vhfall  the rest rea.lly adds little but cost
&maintenance.just an opinion...there seems to be few of us on this
site...that find less is more..real sailing & long distance voyaging is
what it is about
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Re: Stus-List Blocking w boatstands

[Chuck S]

40% of a boat's weight on stands? That might work for center console but sounds 
too high for a keelboat. I read somewhere that the keel should support 80 to 
90% of hull weight and the stands 10 to 20%. That makes sense to me as the lead 
keel is already half the weight of the whole boat, and you don't want to lift 
the hull off the keel. Using round numbers, a 10,000# boat using 6 stands 
(don't count the bow stand) means the keel blocks support 8000# to 9000# while 
each stand is loaded to 166# to 333# each. That's a lot of weight on the 
stands. 

The Brownell boat stand site advises hand tight, so I doubt anyone is loading 
their stands to 40% boat weight which for my example would equal 667# each. In 
fact, I'm probably the only owner at my yard who keeps the stands tight. The 
others set 'em and forget 'em till spring. I tighten my stands evenly and in 
pairs, each visit and I estimate about 200# is being supported by each one of 
my stands, (12% overal weight). How you set them properly is easy to learn from 
the Brownell website, and many yards fail to follow the best practice. 

http://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=brownell+how+to+boat+stands&qs=n&form=QBVR&pq=brownell+how+to+boat+stands&sc=6-27&sp=-1&sk=#view=detail&mid=62FC48305AE6F6A6913862FC48305AE6F6A69138
 




Chuck 
Resolute 
1990 C&C 34R 
Atlantic City, NJ 
- Original Message -
From: "Wally Bryant"  
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com 
Sent: Wednesday, December 18, 2013 3:56:46 PM 
Subject: Re: Stus-List Raised floor boards [was Crack where keel meets hull] 

Some Travellifts have integral scales, so they could lower it onto the 
blocks until the scales read 40 percent of the original weight, and then 
place the jack stands. 

Note that the scales may not be calibrated accurately, or the operator 
may not really know how to use them. One time I had a travellift 
operator tell me that Stella Blue was a really heavy boat. He said it 
weighed 24,000 pounds. Now, I'll admit I have the boat overloaded for 
cruising, but if my boat displaces 24K pounds the waterline would be 
about even with the toe rails.  

However, you could just use 40 percent of whatever the scale says. 

Wal 

sam wrote: 
> Not sure how your supposed to know when you’ve got 60% on the keel. 


-- 
s/v Stella Blue 
www.wbryant.com 


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Stus-List Battery Charger (was Battery charger recommendations?)

[Peter]

ProMariner sent me a replacement battery charger a short while back - ProNautic 
12250c3. Turns out I don't need it. Still in the delivery box, never opened. 
Looking for a good home at a decent price:

http://www.remybattery.com/ProMariner-ProNautic-1250-C3-Battery-Charger-P3397.aspx

Any interest?



Peter
SV Outrider


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Re: Stus-List Blocking w boatstands

[Wally Bryant]

I dunno, you're probably right.  I think he said his owner's manual said 
that a minimum of 60% of the weight should be on the keel.



Chuck S wrote:

40% of a boat's weight on stands?



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Stus-List Propane stove problem

[Fred Hazzard]

I have a Hillerange 3 burner propane stove.  Occasionally one burner will
leak gas and subsequent fire around the shaft that controls burner heat
where it enters the burner assembly . I only see this happening after it
begins to melt the inside of the control knob.   I am looking for
suggestions what I need to do to fix this problem.

 

Fred Hazzard

S/V Fury

C&C 44

Portland, OR

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Re: Stus-List Propane stove problem

[Frederick G Street]

Fred — you’ll probably need to replace the valve assembly, if that’s still 
possible.  Try here: 
http://www.suremarineservice.com/Seaward-Propane--LPG--Range-Parts.aspx

Fred Street -- Minneapolis
S/V Oceanis (1979 C&C Landfall 38) -- on the hard in Bayfield, WI   :^(

On Dec 18, 2013, at 5:41 PM, Fred Hazzard  wrote:

> I have a Hillerange 3 burner propane stove.  Occasionally one burner will 
> leak gas and subsequent fire around the shaft that controls burner heat where 
> it enters the burner assembly . I only see this happening after it begins to 
> melt the inside of the control knob.   I am looking for suggestions what I 
> need to do to fix this problem.
>  
> Fred Hazzard
> S/V Fury
> C&C 44
> Portland, OR

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Re: Stus-List Blocking w boatstands

[Ken Heaton]

A quote from the C&C 37+ Owner's Manual:

14.2 Cradle Support
When hauling on a marine railway or placing the yacht in its storage
cradle, at least 60% of
the weight of the yacht should be on the keel. The hull supports should not
bear more than
30% to 40% of the weight of the yacht, otherwise, structural damage may
result if these
weight percentages are not followed. Do not put weight on the keel further
aft than the last
keel bolt. The extreme aft tip of the keel is tapered to a thin section and
will accept little
weight without the possibility of bending (see 3.5). It may be necessary to
go through the
loading process two or three times, checking the keel position relative to
the centreline of
the cradle, before it is finally positioned.

Ken H.


On 18 December 2013 19:04, Wally Bryant  wrote:

> I dunno, you're probably right.  I think he said his owner's manual said
> that a minimum of 60% of the weight should be on the keel.
>
>
>
> Chuck S wrote:
>
>> 40% of a boat's weight on stands?
>>
>
>
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Re: Stus-List Blocking w boatstands

[Chuck S]

Wow Ken, 
There it is 
". . . at least 60% of the weight of the yacht should be on the keel. The hull 
supports should not bear more than 30% to 40% of the weight of the yacht." 

The owners manual statement sets limits. Note, there is no maximum stated for 
the keel and no minimum stated for the "hull supports" so all is well to set 
the boat properly on the keel blocks and hand tighten the stands evenly around 
the hull. We were over complicating things. 


Chuck 
Resolute 
1990 C&C 34R 
Atlantic City, NJ 
- Original Message -
From: "Ken Heaton"  
To: w...@wbryant.com, "cnc-list"  
Sent: Wednesday, December 18, 2013 7:35:13 PM 
Subject: Re: Stus-List Blocking w boatstands 


A quote from the C&C 37+ Owner's Manual: 



14.2 Cradle Support 
When hauling on a marine railway or placing the yacht in its storage cradle, 
otherwise, structural damage may result if these 
weight percentages are not followed. Do not put weight on the keel further aft 
than the last 
keel bolt. The extreme aft tip of the keel is tapered to a thin section and 
will accept little 
weight without the possibility of bending (see 3.5). It may be necessary to go 
through the 
loading process two or three times, checking the keel position relative to the 
centreline of 
the cradle, before it is finally positioned. 


Ken H. 



On 18 December 2013 19:04, Wally Bryant < w...@wbryant.com > wrote: 


I dunno, you're probably right. I think he said his owner's manual said that a 
minimum of 60% of the weight should be on the keel. 



Chuck S wrote: 


40% of a boat's weight on stands? 






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Re: Stus-List Battery Charger (was Battery charger recommendations?)

[Rick Brass]

Peter;

I'm planning a rewiring of my AC system before long, and that might include
updating my old Xantrex 40  amp charger. Let me know off list how much you
want for the ProMariner charger?

Rick Brass

-Original Message-
From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of Peter
Sent: Wednesday, December 18, 2013 5:14 PM
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
Subject: Stus-List Battery Charger (was Battery charger recommendations?)

ProMariner sent me a replacement battery charger a short while back -
ProNautic 12250c3. Turns out I don't need it. Still in the delivery box,
never opened. Looking for a good home at a decent price:

http://www.remybattery.com/ProMariner-ProNautic-1250-C3-Battery-Charger-P339
7.aspx

Any interest?



Peter
SV Outrider


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Stus-List Blocking w boatstands

[Robert Abbott]

Don't you guys have different boats.+37 and 34Rwould that make 
any difference...just wondering?


Rob Abbott
AZURA
C&C 32 - 84
Halifax, N.S.


On 2013/12/18 9:48 PM, Chuck S wrote:

Wow Ken,
There it is
". . . at least 60% of the weight of the yacht should be on the keel. 
The hull supports should not bear more than 30% to 40% of the weight 
of the yacht."


The owners manual statement sets limits.  Note, there is no maximum 
stated for the keel and no minimum stated for the "hull supports" so 
all is well to set the boat properly on the keel blocks and hand 
tighten the stands evenly around the hull.  We were over complicating 
things.


Chuck
Resolute
1990 C&C 34R
Atlantic City, NJ

*From: *"Ken Heaton" 
*To: *w...@wbryant.com, "cnc-list" 
*Sent: *Wednesday, December 18, 2013 7:35:13 PM
*Subject: *Re: Stus-List Blocking w boatstands

A quote from the C&C 37+ Owner's Manual:

14.2 Cradle Support
When hauling on a marine railway or placing the yacht in its storage 
cradle, otherwise, structural damage may result if these
weight percentages are not followed. Do not put weight on the keel 
further aft than the last
keel bolt. The extreme aft tip of the keel is tapered to a thin 
section and will accept little
weight without the possibility of bending (see 3.5). It may be 
necessary to go through the
loading process two or three times, checking the keel position 
relative to the centreline of

the cradle, before it is finally positioned.

Ken H.


On 18 December 2013 19:04, Wally Bryant > wrote:


I dunno, you're probably right.  I think he said his owner's
manual said that a minimum of 60% of the weight should be on the
keel.



Chuck S wrote:

40% of a boat's weight on stands?




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Stus-List Marine Plumbing

[Josh Muckley]

Ok folks here's one I hope sparks a fury of conversation.

My boat is outfitted almost entirely with the original fresh water
plumbing, "qest" grey tubing and compression fittings.  I have heard that
it is an accident waiting to happen.   That it used to be used for homes
and is now no longer available due to its unreliability.  What should I
replace it with?  Just regular old household plumbing from the hardware
store?

What guidance is there regarding the waste water and through hull
fittings?  All of my through-hulls are marelon, which i understand is
pretty popular.  Unfortunately the PO also used a mix if white and grey pvc
in various places throughout the seawater systems.  I've heard that doing
that has been known to sink boats.

He also used white PVC for various holding tank fittings is that ok or
should it be replaced?

What are the rules about brass, red brass, and bronze?

Let the fury being!

Thanks,
Josh Muckley
S/V Sea Hawk
1989 C&C 37+
Solomons, MD
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Re: Stus-List Marine Plumbing

[Jim Watts]

You should rip it all out and replace it with titanium fittings, otherwise
your boat will sink immediately. Like this century, or so.


On 18 December 2013 21:36, Josh Muckley  wrote:

> Ok folks here's one I hope sparks a fury of conversation.
>
> My boat is outfitted almost entirely with the original fresh water
> plumbing, "qest" grey tubing and compression fittings.  I have heard that
> it is an accident waiting to happen.   That it used to be used for homes
> and is now no longer available due to its unreliability.  What should I
> replace it with?  Just regular old household plumbing from the hardware
> store?
>
> What guidance is there regarding the waste water and through hull
> fittings?  All of my through-hulls are marelon, which i understand is
> pretty popular.  Unfortunately the PO also used a mix if white and grey pvc
> in various places throughout the seawater systems.  I've heard that doing
> that has been known to sink boats.
>
> He also used white PVC for various holding tank fittings is that ok or
> should it be replaced?
>
> What are the rules about brass, red brass, and bronze?
>
> Let the fury being!
>
> Thanks,
> Josh Muckley
> S/V Sea Hawk
> 1989 C&C 37+
> Solomons, MD
>
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>
>


-- 
Jim Watts
Paradigm Shift
C&C 35 Mk III
Victoria, BC
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