Re: [9fans] nice quote

2009-09-04 Thread Jack Norton

Brian L. Stuart wrote:

Just getting something to happen might be training, but it sure isn't
education.
  
Thats the best one-liner I have ever heard on the subject. 


-Jack



Re: [9fans] Petabytes on a budget: JBODs + Linux + JFS

2009-09-04 Thread Jack Norton

erik quanstrom wrote:

*with*, not *on* right?



with.  it's an appliance.

  

Now, the information above is quite useful, yet my question
was more along the lines of -- if one was to build such
a box using Plan 9 as the software -- would it be:
 1. feasible
 2. have any advantages over Linux + JFS



aoe is block storage so i guess i don't know how
to answer.

- erik

  

I think what he means is:
You are given an inordinate amount of harddrives and some computers to 
house them.
If plan9 is your only software, how would it be configured overall, 
given that it has to perform as well, or better.


Or put another way: your boss wants you to compete with backblaze using 
only plan9 and (let's say) a _large_ budget.  Go!


-Jack



Re: [9fans] Petabytes on a budget: JBODs + Linux + JFS

2009-09-08 Thread Jack Norton

erik quanstrom wrote:

I think what he means is:
You are given an inordinate amount of harddrives and some computers to 
house them.
If plan9 is your only software, how would it be configured overall, 
given that it has to perform as well, or better.


Or put another way: your boss wants you to compete with backblaze using 
only plan9 and (let's say) a _large_ budget.  Go!



forgive me for thinking in ruts ...

i wouldn't ask the question just like that.  the original
plan 9 fileserver had a practically-infinite storage system.
it was a jukebox.  the jukebox ran some firmware that wasn't
plan 9.  (in fact the fileserver itself wasn't running plan 9.)

today, jukeboxes are still ideal in some ways, but they're too
expensive.  i personally think you  can replace the juke
with a set of aoe shelves.  you can treat the shelves as if
they were jukebox platters.  add as necessary.  this gives
you an solid, redundant foundation.

for a naive first implementation targeting plan 9 clients,
i would probablly start with ken's fs.  for coraid's modest
requirements (10e2 users 10e2 terminals 10e1 cpu servers
10e2 mb/s), i built this http://www.quanstro.net/plan9/disklessfs.pdf

i don't see any fundamental reasons why it would not
scale up to petabytes.  i would put work into enabling
multiple cpus. i would imagine it wouldn't be hard to
saturate 2x10gbe with such a setup.  of course, there is
no reason one would need to limit oneself to a single
file server, other than simplicity.

of course this is all a bunch of hand waving without any
money or specific requirements.

- erik

  

Erik,

I read the paper you wrote and I have some (probably naive) questions:
The section #6 labeled "core improvements" seems to suggest that the 
fileserver is basically using the CPU/fileserver hybrid kernel (both 
major changes are quoted as coming from the CPU kernel).  Is this just a 
one-off adjustment made by yourself, or have these changes been made 
permanent? 
Also, about the coraid AoE unit: am I correct in assuming that it does 
some sort of RAID functionality, and then presents the resulting 
device(s) as an AoE device (and nothing more)?
Also, another probably dumb question: did the the fileserver machine use 
the AoE device as a kenfs volume or a fossil(+venti)?


The reason I am asking all of this is because I have a linux fileserver 
machine that _just_ serves up storage, and I have a atom based machine 
not doing anything at the moment (with gbE).  I would love to have the 
linux machine present its goods as an AoE device and have the atom based 
machine play the fileserver role.  That would be fun. 
Thanks in advance for patience involving my questions :)


-Jack 





Re: [9fans] Petabytes on a budget: JBODs + Linux + JFS

2009-09-08 Thread Jack Norton

erik quanstrom wrote:
Also, another probably dumb question: did the the fileserver machine use 
the AoE device as a kenfs volume or a fossil(+venti)?



s/did/does/.  the fileserver is running today.

the fileserver provides the network with regular 9p fileserver
with three attach points (main, dump, other) accessable via il/ip.
from a client's view of the 9p messages, fossil, fossil+venti and
ken's fs would be difficult to distinguish.

- erik

  


Very cool. 
So what about having venti on an AoE device, and fossil on a local drive 
(say an ssd even)?  How would you handle (or: how would venti handle), a 
resize of the AoE device?  Let's say you add more active drives to the 
RAID pool on the AoE machine (which on a linux fileserver would then 
involve resizing partition on block device, followed by growing the 
volume groups if using lvm, followed by growing the filesystem).
Sorry for thinking out loud... I should get back to work anyway  fun 
thread though.


-Jack



Re: [9fans] nice quote

2009-09-09 Thread Jack Norton

Abhishek Kulkarni wrote:
On Wed, Sep 9, 2009 at 12:00 PM, Russ Cox > wrote:


> anyone written any software recently?

i did.  http://9fans.net/archive/


Thanks. I like the new interface. It makes searching through the
archives a lot easier. I do still kinda sometimes prefer the threaded 
view that Google Groups offers when reading archived threads.

(Google Groups archives seem broken off late and do not include
older threads in the archive)

It would be cool to have "next in thread" and "prev in thread"
pointers to jump around between topics in the same thread.

What might be cool is to have an entire year, or an entire months worth 
of messages downloadable in mbox or similar format.  Then you could use 
your mail reader to view (which consequently may be able to give you 
that threaded view). 


-Jack



Re: [9fans] Petabytes on a budget: JBODs + Linux + JFS

2009-09-14 Thread Jack Norton

erik quanstrom wrote:
So what about having venti on an AoE device, and fossil on a local drive 
(say an ssd even)?  



sure.  we keep the cache on the coraid sr1521 as well.

  
How would you handle (or: how would venti handle), a 
resize of the AoE device?  



that would depend on the device structure of ken's fs.
as long as you don't use the pseudo-worm device, it wouldn't
care.  the worm would simply grow.  if you use the pseudo-worm
device (f), changing the size of the device would fail since
the written bitmap is at a fixed offset from the end of the
device.  and if you try to read an unwritten block, the f
panics the file server.  i stopped using the f device.

- erik

  

I am going to try my hands at beating a dead horse:)
So when you create a Venti volume, it basically writes '0's' to all the 
blocks of the underlying device right?  If I put a venti volume on a AoE 
device which is a linux raid5, using normal desktop sata drives, what 
are my chances of a successful completion of the venti formating (let's 
say 1TB raw size)?   Have you ever encountered such problems, or are you 
using more robust hardware?
I ask because I have in the past, failed a somewhat-used sata drive 
while creating a venti volume (it subsequently created i/o errors on 
every os I used on it, although it limped along).  I must say it is 
quite a brutal process, creating venti (at least I get that impression 
from the times I have done it in the past).
If linux is my raid controller, I know that it is _very_ picky about how 
long a drive takes to respond and will fail a drive if it has to wait 
too long.  

By the way I am currently buying a few pieces of cheap hardware to 
implement my own diskless fileserver.  Should be ready to go in about a 
couple of weeks.


-Jack



Re: [9fans] Petabytes on a budget: JBODs + Linux + JFS

2009-09-14 Thread Jack Norton

Russ Cox wrote:

On Mon, Sep 14, 2009 at 8:50 AM, Jack Norton  wrote:
  

So when you create a Venti volume, it basically writes '0's' to all the
blocks of the underlying device right?



In case anyone decides to try the experiment,
venti hasn't done this for a few years.  Better to try with dd.

Russ

  
By a 'few years' do you mean >=2.5 yrs, because thats the last time I 
had a venti setup.  I had to stop using plan 9 for a while so that I 
could graduate on time (that thesis wasn't going to write itself 
apparently).  All work and no play makes jack a dull boy. 


-Jack



Re: [9fans] fun quote

2009-09-17 Thread Jack Norton

erik quanstrom wrote:

i don't know how ingo managed to put his
finger on so many reasons i enjoy plan 9
by counterexample.

Linux is a 18+ years old kernel, there's not that
many easy projects left in it anymore :-/ Core kernel
features that look basic and which are not in Linux
yet often turn out to be not that simple.
-- Ingo Molnar

- erik

  
Now, Plan 9's kernel is pretty old too, isn't it?  If Plan9 had become a 
bit more widely accepted, even as late as, let's say, 2002, do you think 
it would have become an unruly and frighteningly complicated beast as 
linux has?
What has saved other 'popular' kernels from this?  For instance, no body 
ever complains about FreeBSD being a complex cluster f***, but it has 
pretty wide adoption (even as a 'desktop').  What about OS X?  Has 
Apple's arrogance and secrecy saved it from  open source 
development?  It seems like they release code only after they are damn 
sure they've gotten all they can out of it. 
So, is Linux the unwanted poster-child of open source development?  I 
think an argument could be made. 


-Jack



Re: [9fans] fun quote

2009-09-17 Thread Jack Norton

erik quanstrom wrote:

Now, Plan 9's kernel is pretty old too, isn't it?



that's the point.  age is a red herring.

  
What has saved other 'popular' kernels from this?  For instance, no body 
ever complains about FreeBSD being a complex cluster, but it has 
pretty wide adoption (even as a 'desktop').  What about OS X?  Has 
Apple's arrogance and secrecy saved it from  open source 
development?  It seems like they release code only after they are damn 
sure they've gotten all they can out of it. 



so you're saying that osx is not complicated?

- erik

  
No, no, it is, what I mean is that I haven't heard similar sentiments 
towards the open source released by Apple.   Apple's  'open source'  is  
software that is developed in a closed source fashion, then released as 
open source when the time is right, as opposed to Linux and related 
software, which are developed, almost from the ground up, as open 
source.  This is the impression I get anyway. 


-Jack



Re: [9fans] "Blocks" in C

2009-09-17 Thread Jack Norton

David Leimbach wrote:



On Thu, Sep 17, 2009 at 1:43 AM, Charles Forsyth 
mailto:fors...@terzarima.net>> wrote:


we'd have been much better off if Apple had instead spent the
time and effort writing a decent iTunes, or opening their platform
interfaces enough that someone else could do it (and on Linux, not
just Mac or Windows).


What's your gripe on iTunes?  I've had a few issues with it, but it 
does seem to get the job done somehow.  Honestly just curious.

I'd like to jump in on this.
I hate iTunes with a passion. It is a huge monolithic godlike creature 
that tries to do everything for me (usually when I don't want it to).  
It brings my 12" powerbook to a screeching halt (I get beach balled to 
death), and it doesn't natively support many audio/video 
codecs/containers (and isn't that easily extended, which brings up 
quicktime   ). 
Then again, I grew up using winamp, and I absolutely love the old style 
winamp.   No bloody database, no crazy multi-tiered file browser, and no 
video player.  Just select a song(s) and play. 
Itunes is not a media player, it is a platform in and of itself.  It is 
the emacs of media players (in that it is all encompassing, there is a 
church/cult, etc...). 
Just about the simplest way to play audio on a computer, save for the 
methods in plan9 :)  (I'm _trying_ to get us back on topic...)
Ok I'm done. 


-Jack



Re: [9fans] linux stats in last year from linuxcon

2009-09-21 Thread Jack Norton

ron minnich wrote:

2.7M lines last year
10K lines added a day.
5K lines deleted per day.

I keep thinking this can't be sustained. What happens next?

At the same time, well, as pointed out, we all use it all the time.
I'm sending this from gmail.

Or you can use Linux by googling these stats :-)

ron

  

Here is a little related tidbit:
http://lwn.net/Articles/222773/
It shows employer/company vs. changed lines/contributions etc...
I think this has as much to do with the state of  the linux kernel as 
the overall design and ideal therein.  It defines the 'new' open 
source.   I don't think something this large can benifit anymore from 
open source (as in open 'all the time' to anyone, everywhere -- as 
opposed to let's say apple's version of open source dev).  The 
development scheme just doesn't scale.

In any event, I'm still waiting for the damn thing to fork...

-Jack 



Re: [9fans] Petabytes on a budget: JBODs + Linux + JFS

2009-09-21 Thread Jack Norton

erik quanstrom wrote:

i think the lesson here is don't by cheep drives; if you
have enterprise drives at 1e-15 error rate, the fail rate
will be 0.8%.  of course if you don't have a raid, the fail
rate is 100%.

if that's not acceptable, then use raid 6.
  

Hopefully Raid 6 or zfs's raidz2 works well enough with cheap
drives!



don't hope.  do the calculations.  or simulate it.

this is a pain in the neck as it's a function of ber,
mtbf, rebuild window and number of drives.

i found that not having a hot spare can increase
your chances of a double failure by an order of
magnitude.  the birthday paradox never ceases to
amaze.

- erik

  

While we are on the topic:
How many RAID cards have we failed lately?  I ask because I am about to 
hit a fork in the road with my work-a-like of your diskless fs.  I was 
originally going to use linux soft raid and vblade, but I am considering 
using some raid cards that just so happen to be included in the piece of 
hardware I will be getting soon...
At work, we recently had a massive failure of our RAID array.  After 
much brown noseing, I come to find that after many harddrives being 
shipped to our IT guy and him scratching his head, it was in fact the 
RAID card itself that had failed (which takes out the whole array, plus 
can take out any new drives you throw at it apparently). 

So I ask you all this (especially those in the 'biz): all this 
redundancy on the drive side, why no redundancy of controller cards (or 
should I say, the driver infrastructure needed)?


It is appealing to me to try and get some plan 9 supported raid card and 
have plan 9 throughout (like the coraid setup as far as I can tell), but 
this little issue bothers me.


Speaking of birthday, I mentioned to our IT dep (all two people...) that 
they should try and spread out the drives used among different mfg dates 
and batches.  It shocked me to know that this was news to them...


-Jack



Re: [9fans] linux stats in last year from linuxcon

2009-09-22 Thread Jack Norton

Richard Uhtenwoldt wrote:

J.R. Mauro writes:
  

Another thing they won't consider is having separate versions for
high-end servers and PCs. I don't understand why Torvalds thinks Linux
has to be all things to all people.



the Linux running on a high-end server is probably compiled from
the same (evolving over time) source tree as the Linux running on
a desktop.

but cannot the same be said of Windows now that most desktops run
Windows XP or a later version of Windows?  cannot the same be
said of OS X?

Richard Uhtenwoldt
http://sonic.net/~sielskr

  
The big topic for me is the realtime patch (the one mentioned at 
rt.wiki.kernel.org).  I dabble in computer based audio, and this patch 
is mandatory for low latency audio.  There is a big debate as to why 
this isn't pushed into the main kernel source and/or forked in the name 
of such things.  All I will say is that on OSX I can use jack daemon and 
get low latency audio right out of the box and on windows I can use low 
latency drivers such as ASIO and the newer WaveRT.   It's even more 
tragic as there are tons of great linux audio tools, but they are a hard 
sale because you need to apply the rt-patch (which for a musician is 
like performing open heart surgery).
In the end I don't care what the linux devs do, but they need to come up 
with a game plan and either fork (server, desktop linux) or include it 
all and try and make everyone happy (the latter will end in chaos me 
thinks). 

What I just described is the number one topic that brings up the 'fork 
linux' debate (at least it's the one I always pay attention to). 

Speaking of realtime, I am trying my hardest to port some of our custom 
control applications that we use around my engineering lab to inferno 
(anyone doing something similar?  inferno list is not exactly a popular 
place apparently).  Right now I spit out a python script on the fly for 
everything (quick turnaround) and it's getting old (plus I want to be 
able to control anything in the lab from any machine in the lab -- i.e. 
a perfect place for some inferno installs)


-jack



Re: [9fans] acme without a heavy grid (SFW)

2009-09-30 Thread Jack Norton

Jason Catena wrote:

A quick edit frees acme from its "heavy grid prison", a la Tufte.
https://dl.getdropbox.com/u/502901/acmenogrid.jpg

Jason Catena

  
How about no grid whatsoever (while you're at it)?  There is plenty of 
contrast there to forego any kind of hard devisions.


However, I end up with the same conclusion: why?  Is the 'grid' that 
distracting?  Also, if you have two text files open side-by-side, and 
your lines are long enough to wrap, you would have a glob of 
incomprehensible text in the middle.  I think at least a moderately 
thick grid is a necessary evil.


-jack



[9fans] Plan 9 Xen -- Follow up on previous 9fans topic

2009-10-02 Thread Jack Norton


Hello,

I would like to know if the fellow below (Andreas Erikson), ever tried 
to compile plan 9 xen3 sources against xen 3.2.x (or 3.[2-4].x for that 
matter).   I am going to try that this weekend, and if he started to 
patch some code, I would appreciate the head start.


>From: Richard Miller <9f...@ham...> Subject: Running Plan 9 on Xen 3.2 
Date: Tue, 30 Jun 2009 08:57:25 +0100

>> From: Andreas Eriksen 
>> Does this mean Plan 9 is not compatible with Xen 3.2, or does it just
>> need a recompile or some other quick fix?
>It's compatible with Xen 3.0.x for some x. I haven't checked how much 
the Xen API has changed for 3.2 -- do try recompiling and see what 
happens! > of the source files are no longer >world readable Sorry, my 
fault. Fixed now. -- Richard



-Jack



Re: [9fans] Plan 9 & VirtualBox

2009-10-26 Thread Jack Norton

Jacob Todd wrote:

On Fri, Oct 23, 2009 at 04:28:20PM -0700, Sam'l B wrote:
  
	Is anyone working on making them play nice together?  Is it possible, 
even?


	I  get slightly farther with VirtualBox on Vista Home Basic   than on 
Fedora 11, but then things come to a complete halt.


Sam'l  B.
(User, not Programmer)



Plan 9 works fine in qemu on both windows (xp at least) and linux.

  
I will vouch for plan 9 working in qemu in windows 7 rc.  There is even 
a nice qemu gui that gives you a virtualbox-like experience (I forget 
the name -- could it be kqemu?).

-Jack



Re: [9fans] Plan 9 & VirtualBox

2009-10-26 Thread Jack Norton

Antonio Hernández Blas wrote:

On Mon, Oct 26, 2009 at 1:41 PM, Jack Norton  wrote:
  

Jacob Todd wrote:


On Fri, Oct 23, 2009 at 04:28:20PM -0700, Sam'l B wrote:

  

   Is anyone working on making them play nice together?  Is it
possible, even?

   I  get slightly farther with VirtualBox on Vista Home Basic   than
on Fedora 11, but then things come to a complete halt.

Sam'l  B.
(User, not Programmer)




Plan 9 works fine in qemu on both windows (xp at least) and linux.


  

I will vouch for plan 9 working in qemu in windows 7 rc.  There is even a
nice qemu gui that gives you a virtualbox-like experience (I forget the name
-- could it be kqemu?).
-Jack





Maybe you´are talking about "Qemu Manager"
(http://www.davereyn.co.uk/about.htm).

  
Yes! Thats the one.  Fantastic front end to qemu.  I am obviously not 
infront of my pc, or else I would have just ran the app and reported the 
name. 
So thats qemu, and qemu manager that work with windows 7 rc. 
-Jack




Re: [9fans] parallel systems

2009-10-28 Thread Jack Norton

Sam Watkins wrote:

I think my main points were good.

  * can parallelize by duplicating subsystems / divide and conquer
  * can parallelize by pipelining, even down to the arithmetic level
  * latency is limited by Ahmdal's law, potential throughput should not be
  * multi-tasking can potentially use close to the full power of a system

A factory is a parallel system.  A car factory can come close to fully
utilizing thousands of human and robot workers.

I think well-designed parallel systems can efficiently solve many laborious
computing problems.  Invocations of Ahmdal have not convinced me otherwise.

Sam

  
I would say a factory is heavily pipelined.  Although if the jobs aren't 
big enough, the workers are underutilized.  The mediators (supervisors) 
that keep said workers efficiently running are paid more than the 
workers, and it can be deduced that their job is more critical 
overall.   Hmm what does that say about parallel computer systems?  
Maybe you should have a shop foreman design a parallel system.   I 
thought I would respond as I work at a small company and we build all 
our parts in our factory.  I regularly deal with such parallel system 
latencies...


also, one more thought: near 100% factory utilization only occurs when 
the assembly steps (pipeline) and division of assembly (divide and 
conquer) is tailored for the exact product (task/instruction/process) to 
be made.  There is no such thing as a 100% utilized general purpose 
factory.  At least not from what I have seen. 


-Jack



Re: [9fans] Scanners

2009-11-25 Thread Jack Norton

Peter A. Cejchan wrote:

No need for spezial software except a Cifs Server.
The scanner use smbclient.




i repeat: i do not wish to have anything to do with windoze os, nor
with smb and other bullshit. sorry for such a rude wording... windoze
annoyed me along with other proprietary sw 20+ yrs i do share all
my outcome publicly... yes, i'm not a millionaire (and my outcome is
humble, YES), but several people already acknowledged my work... BTW,
if you read up to this point, i would design a book scanner in an
other way, especially, no parallel (to scanning lamp) covering glass,
but, rather, a roof-like glass construction *( to avoid book damage)
and a mirror + sw to convert it to rectangular page just my two
cents ;-)

sry if it's offending, but i'd like to see an open specification for
any , be it desktop, scanner. BTW, i consider supporting ONLY windoze
a violation of a free business contest law, IMHO

sry 1 more, i just wted 2 know anybody uses a scnr on NATIVE p9

++pac



I checked out the image access site, and it looks like you can scan to 
FTP, email (built in MTA?), along with the smb method.

I actually think thats pretty nice.
What on earth is free business contest law (FBCL I suppose)?  Does that 
mean if I only make parts for Ford motor cars, and I completely ignore 
GM, and also the vast league of Kit Car DIY'ers, I am evil?
I like the book scanner idea though, you should jump on that.  Much more 
elegant in my opinion to the 'book open, face up' with camera's from 
afar method.


-Jack



Re: [9fans] Small Plan9 box suggestions.

2011-02-25 Thread Jack Norton

Jason Dreisbach wrote:

Hi all,

Can anyone help shed some light in my search for a "low power" minimal 
plan 9 hardware setup to start experimenting with. Has anyone had 
success running plan 9 on a Fit PC (the only atom box we have access to)? 

Gumstix would be ideal, but their plan 9 support is a bit half baked 
right now. Wireless support would be a huge plus.


We are trying to do a bit of research into robotic applications of plan 
9. The p9 filesystem protocol seems like a real neat method to acquire 
resources of nearby "bots". Allowing for very minimal, modularized robot 
configurations. 


Any tips? Am I out of my mind?

Thanks,

Jason


Jason,

I am currently attempting a little ROV using some 9p for control, but I 
am using inferno hosted on linux.  That might be the quicker way to get 
your 'bots speaking 9p.  I am doing this because right off the bat I 
need a webcam.  I also need to prototype this very quickly so mucking 
about in hardware drivers and OS nuances is not an option.

Sounds like fun!  I'm curious what you come up with!

-Jack



Re: [9fans] Small Plan9 box suggestions.

2011-02-25 Thread Jack Norton

Jacob Todd wrote:
Does inferno have support for (a) webcam(s)? Or are you using linux for 
capturing things from the webcam?


On Feb 25, 2011 9:14 AM, "Jack Norton" <mailto:j...@0x6a.com>> wrote:

 > Jason Dreisbach wrote:
 >> Hi all,
 >>
 >> Can anyone help shed some light in my search for a "low power" minimal
 >> plan 9 hardware setup to start experimenting with. Has anyone had
 >> success running plan 9 on a Fit PC (the only atom box we have access 
to)?

 >>
 >> Gumstix would be ideal, but their plan 9 support is a bit half baked
 >> right now. Wireless support would be a huge plus.
 >>
 >> We are trying to do a bit of research into robotic applications of plan
 >> 9. The p9 filesystem protocol seems like a real neat method to acquire
 >> resources of nearby "bots". Allowing for very minimal, modularized 
robot

 >> configurations.
 >>
 >> Any tips? Am I out of my mind?
 >>
 >> Thanks,
 >>
 >> Jason
 >
 > Jason,
 >
 > I am currently attempting a little ROV using some 9p for control, but I
 > am using inferno hosted on linux. That might be the quicker way to get
 > your 'bots speaking 9p. I am doing this because right off the bat I
 > need a webcam. I also need to prototype this very quickly so mucking
 > about in hardware drivers and OS nuances is not an option.
 > Sounds like fun! I'm curious what you come up with!
 >
 > -Jack
 >


It's a USB webcam (logitech POS is the model I believe :) ).  Right now 
I am leaving the webcam for last, so right now linux is providing the 
drivers and I am watching it 'quick and dirty' with a seperate xawtv 
window.  The webcam is my last step because it really is just outside 
the reach of my personal programing capabilities (I'm a physicist -- god 
help you if I ever have to write code for you...).  In all reality I may 
get as far as an ugly hack involving some host multimedia converters and 
file2chan, but that is optimistic at best right now.
Once the concept is limping along, I can then really attempt a native 
webcam of some sort.
In any event I've got the impression that inferno could be really cool 
in a robotics environment, hence the motivation.


-Jack



Re: [9fans] recent plan9.iso on hosted kvm/qemu

2011-03-07 Thread Jack Norton

Stanley Lieber wrote:

On Sun Mar  6 22:33:33 EST 2011, stanley.lie...@gmail.com wrote:

9atom's 9load prints "%d e820 entries" on boot.  is that number 0?

found 7 e8s0 entries

Then it freezes.

it's not the e820 code, then.  it's either falling over initializing the
console, or it's falling over probing devices for the .ini file.

after e820, 9load starts up the console and probes devices looking
for a .ini file.

i would think the odds are good that 9load has found an i/o port
that should not be touched.  devices are probed in this order
floppy. ether, cd, sd.

i don't really have a kvm setup, but if it's possible, you might try
removing devices (espeically ethernet devices) from a copy of 9load
until you find something that boots, then add 'em back in till it doesn't.

sounds tedious, no?  :-)


I'm perfectly willing. Two main problems at this point:

- I don't have immediate access to amd64 hardware to setup my own KVM/qemu.
I learned the hard way that KVM inside another qemu or VMware guest doesn't
work.
- Changing out the CD-ROM image on the hosted VPS requires sending an e-mail
to technical support and waiting up to 24 hours for a response. I've been told
allowing users to dynamically change CD-ROM images is not an option.

Jack:

If you reading this, do you want to try this with your cron-swapped floppy 
images?

-sl


I would be willing, definitely.  However, I am committed to finishing 
the setup of a cpu/auth server in the VPS right now (I've got it 
installed, just need to find time to make the migration from terminal to 
cpu/auth -- probably lunch break today).  I want to reach the milestone 
of serving a page over http (which is the primary purpose of this VPS in 
the first place).
Once that is done, I can bring it down and start playing around with 
9loads and kernels loaded on my floppy image.


Also, see about setting up the floppy cron job on your vps.  If 
anything, having a floppy there makes things so much easier to quickly 
play with a new kernel.  No need to master a new install cd and have 
them waste all that bandwidth.


Also, I noticed that the "probing plan9.ini" step in the loader looks at 
the floppy first even if booting off the hd.  Since I couldn't remove 
the floppy all together, I have my install's plan9.ini merged into the 
plan9.ini of the floppy.
Just a minor annoyance I had no idea existed :).  Although it is a great 
little feature to rescue the system if I bork my plan9.ini...


Also, I really need to thank fgb as he gave me a little tip on irc about 
his modified 9load that allows you to pass new plan9.ini variables at 
boot.  I got disconnected before I could acknowledge.  I haven't tried 
it yet, but it could be useful.


-Jack




Re: [9fans] recent plan9.iso on hosted kvm/qemu

2011-03-07 Thread Jack Norton

erik quanstrom wrote:

On Sun Mar  6 22:33:33 EST 2011, stanley.lie...@gmail.com wrote:

9atom's 9load prints "%d e820 entries" on boot.  is that number 0?

found 7 e8s0 entries

Then it freezes.


it's not the e820 code, then.  it's either falling over initializing the
console, or it's falling over probing devices for the .ini file.

after e820, 9load starts up the console and probes devices looking
for a .ini file.

i would think the odds are good that 9load has found an i/o port
that should not be touched.  devices are probed in this order
floppy. ether, cd, sd.

i don't really have a kvm setup, but if it's possible, you might try
removing devices (espeically ethernet devices) from a copy of 9load
until you find something that boots, then add 'em back in till it doesn't.

sounds tedious, no?  :-)

- erik



Well I've got some other observations of interest.
As I mentioned, I installed with *noe820scan=1 successfully.
I was in the middle of configuring and playing around when I realized I 
had no ethernet car.  bind -a '#l' /dev returned 'no free devices'.


The vps has an e1000 card (PRO/1000) plugged into it, so I naively put 
"ether0=type=igbe" in plan9.ini.
Now it hangs right where 9load would normally say "no ethernet devices 
found" or something similar.


How odd.

-Jack



Re: [9fans] off list - Re: recent plan9.iso on hosted kvm/qemu

2011-03-07 Thread Jack Norton

Stanley Lieber wrote:

On Mon, Mar 7, 2011 at 12:06 PM, Jack Norton  wrote:

erik quanstrom wrote:

On Sun Mar  6 22:33:33 EST 2011, stanley.lie...@gmail.com wrote:

9atom's 9load prints "%d e820 entries" on boot.  is that number 0?

found 7 e8s0 entries

Then it freezes.

it's not the e820 code, then.  it's either falling over initializing the
console, or it's falling over probing devices for the .ini file.

after e820, 9load starts up the console and probes devices looking
for a .ini file.

i would think the odds are good that 9load has found an i/o port
that should not be touched.  devices are probed in this order
   floppy. ether, cd, sd.

i don't really have a kvm setup, but if it's possible, you might try
removing devices (espeically ethernet devices) from a copy of 9load
until you find something that boots, then add 'em back in till it doesn't.

sounds tedious, no?  :-)

- erik


Well I've got some other observations of interest.
As I mentioned, I installed with *noe820scan=1 successfully.
I was in the middle of configuring and playing around when I realized I had
no ethernet car.  bind -a '#l' /dev returned 'no free devices'.

The vps has an e1000 card (PRO/1000) plugged into it, so I naively put
"ether0=type=igbe" in plan9.ini.
Now it hangs right where 9load would normally say "no ethernet devices
found" or something similar.

How odd.

-Jack


Sorry if this is a duplicate, but I'm not sure my earlier private e-mail to you
went through.

Do you happen to know who the support staff member is that setup your cron
job? The people in #arpnetworks are not being helpful, and Garry seems unaware
of what you've setup. I'd like to run through some tests myself but I
haven't been
able to scrounge up amd64 hardware to setup my own Ubuntu Jaunty server.

Thanks,

-sl

No problem.  I am in contact with Garry Dolley at Arp networks.  I don't 
have his actual email as it is masked by their support mailer.  From 
what I can tell, he is only active late in the day and in the evening 
(I'm on central time in the US btw).  He seems eager to help and doesn't 
mind that I send him numerous emails all day long...
The latest on my side is I've asked for a rtl8139 card instead of the 
e1000 (this is mainly motivated by my own qemu setup, which uses the 
rtl8139 and works lovely).  I'm also not interested in setting up their 
exact kvm setup (partly because I don't want to deal with this libvirt 
business -- looks like a hellish nightmare).
In the mean time I am loading a floppy today with 9load from eric and 
9atom kernel.  I won't have time to recompile or play with 9load until 
later this evening (if that) so I don't think I'll have much else to 
report until tomorrow.


-Jack



Re: [9fans] recent plan9.iso on hosted kvm/qemu

2011-03-08 Thread Jack Norton

Stanley Lieber wrote:

I'm installed.

-sl



Great to hear!

Last night I successfully set up a cpu/auth in the vps and even fired up 
httpd and started serving http (and I could drawterm to it without 
issue).  I didn't have an ip issue (however I did chase my tail due to a 
misconfigured /cfg/.../cpurc).

However..
I broke something bad.  Well, I don't think *I* did it but something is 
wrong.  I can no longer boot my VPS at all.  As in, the VNC is refusing 
connections (which means the VPS doesn't even begin to boot -- which 
means it isn't my fault... probably).  I have no confirmation that the 
VPS is running at all as the management console isn't connecting either...

So I don't know what happened but hopefully they can work it out.

I was just about to try to boot without *norealmode=1 now that the 8139 
NIC was in place.  I'd like to boot this thing without all those 
workarounds (though it runs great -- well ran great...).


All in all, I think they've got a working setup for Plan 9 hosting.  So 
my current troubles aside, this is big news.


-Jack



Re: [9fans] slightly on topic: pic preprocessor for drawing electronic circuits

2011-03-21 Thread Jack Norton

maht wrote:

On 15/03/2011 22:07, Bruce Ellis wrote:

Sounds cool. I'm using AVRs in the jeep fit out for the expedition.
Anyone else here playing with these chips?

yes, I have STK-500 dev kit & a pile of chips
I have a little runtime Forth-like for writing code




Is this a runtime that you wrote?  Sounds interesting.
You don't do any of this dev on Plan 9 do you?
I've got a pile of atmega168's and a icsp flasher board + some flasher 
made by olimex.  I've just been using avr-gcc.  Haven't touched it in a 
while though.


-Jack



Re: [9fans] namespaces, Alef

2011-03-23 Thread Jack Norton

faif wrote:

Some questions that came up while reading the first paper (Plan 9 from
Bell Labs):

a) It seems that the potential of namespaces can be exposed only when
using a distributed environment with multiple machines (CPU servers,
file servers, terminals, etc.). Can I get a feeling about what a
namespace is in practice if I only own a single system installed on a
virtual machine?



You are forgetting about per-process namespaces.  For instance, when you 
run httpd, a custom namespace gets constructed that is unique to it. 
Typically '/usr/web' gets bound to / in the namespace of httpd (among 
other things).  Also certain things *don't* get bound too.  Why would 
httpd need to access eia0? Don't put it in the namespace.


The very point of all of this capability is that it is completely 
transparent to all things being on one machine, or on 20 machines.



b) I know that Limbo is mostly used in Inferno, but is Alef or Limbo
used in any parts of the native Plan 9? According to wikipedia (http://
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alef_%28programming_language%29) the Alef parts
were rewritten in C.



I'm pretty sure there is no Alef left in the latest.  There is no Limbo 
either.  I could be wrong.



-Jack




Re: [9fans] Compiling 9atom kernel WAS: Re: spaces in filenames

2011-05-02 Thread Jack Norton

errno wrote:


Starting Goal:  a modern, standards compliant web engine library for Plan 9



No!

Has anyone tried out Gwene?  Basically you "sign up" an RSS feed and it 
presents it as an NNTP news feed that you can access via news.gwene.org.


Now, this is what I like.  Take some core sites and resources ("all 
useful features" port of the web) and use the sites API, write a 
"translator" to present the content as news, or plain text (files served 
via a fs) where applicable.


If I had time and the stomach to deal with website "API's" and content 
formating, I would do just that.


I'd claim that most sites these days lend well to being translated as 
NNTP news feeds.  Most sites are people 'posting' crap and thoughts on 
said crap at regular intervals.


Some useful staples like wikipedia could get their own fs (wikipediafs? 
-- that's a mouthful...).


Fun but frivolous stuff like reddit could be presented as NNTP as well. 
 If done right, there could be one NNTP server like Gwene that we could 
all use -- or you could roll your own for at home.  And of course it 
doesn't need to be nntp.  I just figured it could be used by people on 
OS's they get stuck with at work that don't speak 9p :)


For newly discovered sites that you'd like to visit when curiosity gets 
the best of you -- you've got abaco or something under linuxemu.


I say modify the web for plan9, not plan9 for the web.

Frankly I'd be more interested in a video player (just a few common 
codecs that's all) than a modern web browser.


-Jack




Re: [9fans] freedom (was Re: Compiling 9atom kernel)

2011-05-06 Thread Jack Norton

errno wrote:

So, what to do?

The Web:

Reject it? (aka "go buy a tablet" )

Reproduce it? (aka "have you looked at webfs?" )

Reuse it? (aka "port webkit")


There's no possible way that I'm the only one who has envisioned 
some rendition of the following science-fiction:


* a Plan 9-based platform targeted at the general consumer market

...   * Stuff * 
I don't want google and facebook and flicker et. al. owning my data; I
don't want to make intel and dell rich with their overpowered machines
and processors so I can run ever-bloating os and software; I don't want to
maintain a collection of various ad-hoc essentially autistic (please excuse
the term) computers in my household. I want to be able to access my
private, personal computing environment from anywhere with an internet
connection via my portable thin client. I want to be able to easily share
my data and resources within a trusted circle. I want all communications
to innately and transparently run over an ssl encrypted channel at all
times.

A radically distributed internet where power and control is put back into 
the hands of individuals. I'm tired of centralized gilded cages and
hierarchical client server models formed and shaped mostly for the benefit 
of a few monolithic companies and an ever-encroaching federal government,

and the ever-insidious "Intellectual Property" gestapo.

From where I stand, this is where Plan 9 belongs. This is what it ought to be
doing, and where it ought to be going.

I hope I have not offended anyone, please do not be too harsh on me if
you disagree.






You've got some misplaced idealism.  Plan 9 isn't needed for any of 
this.  In fact you could probably leverage some existing 
frameworks/api's and whatnot on a linux machine to do this in a matter 
of days for cheaper (hours even?).  All you'd need is a dash of 
pragmatism.


Remember your comment on how Acme/rio et al don't really interest you 
but 9p/per-process ns et al did?  You can kinda do that in linux.  If 
you want to create a product on that scale yourself, linux, for all its 
faults, will get you a time-to-market that isn't a pipe dream.  You just 
have to leverage many unsightly 'technologies'.


Plan 9 to me is a playground to have something clean and unencumbered by 
the world. There is a certain zen to saying "well I don't really think 
that is necessary" and to forgo a "hop on the bandwagon" or "me too!" 
existence.


In the end though, the list will eventually say it: start hammering out 
some code and we'll see what you come up with.  Proof in the pudding.


Good luck,
Jack



Re: [9fans] Plan 9 IRL

2011-05-09 Thread Jack Norton

Anybody remember Rangboom?  Well see here:
http://www.9netics.com/

Of course, the people behind this are on this list.

Although it reads as a "who's who" among 9fans, their respective 
connections to industry are listed where applicable here:

http://www.cs.bell-labs.com/wiki/plan9/people/index.html
Not guaranteed to be exhaustive, but a start nonetheless.

That might be the closest thing to a Plan 9 real world application 
database.



-Jack



Re: [9fans] Hey, new to this. Trying to get plan9 to work in a VM.

2011-06-06 Thread Jack Norton

Balwinder S Dheeman wrote:

On 06/05/2011 11:51 AM, Josh Marshall wrote:

I'm chugging through the resources, reading, and documentation.  This
system acts differently from anything I've previously used, so I'm at a
loss at...everything.  I visited the IRC channel and am working through
the .pdf and the main site.  Is there anything else I should be looking
into?  Also, the .pdf said that I should have a working plan9 install
available to practice, so I tried using vmplayer but the kernel panics.
I'm learning, but not well acquainted with kernel programming,
debugging, or anything else.  Also, if this all seems kind of
incoherent, I'm sorry, its past 2am and I've been working on absorbing
info for over 4 hours.


Try http://werc.homelinux.net/hacks/nano9/

Hope that helps :)



Good lord.  Between these things and '9front' I am missing much.  I need 
to get back on IRC.
Either that or you guys could consolidate all your personal 'werc' sites 
into one Plan 9 'experimental stuff' wiki.  It seems a bit ridiculous 
that werc offers multi-user editing and comments, yet everyone and their 
mom has their own werc site with a Plan 9 sub-page.  Or better yet, 
resurrect the 'ole webring concept with those silly links to traverse it 
:).  Personally I'd like to see work put into the Plan 9 wiki backend. 
I'd rather use it than werc (which I do -- but I've only got a little 
placeholder page that says "coming soon" -- and has for 6 months...).
As for 9front, it looks like fun.  I say that even though the word 
'fork' scares me.
Unfortunately IRC requires free time behind the computer -- which I 
never have.  Boo hoo, I know...

Well that's my useless post for the day.

As for the OP, I'm with Peter C.  Install it native and forget all of 
this other nonsense for now.  You could probably find a good candidate 
PC in a dumpster somewhere.  Or a $70 atom board with a bit of memory 
could do you just fine (the plain intel ones -- not those omg-ION 
graphics ones).  I know the NMO510 guy works with only one core (but it 
works).


Cheers,
Jack



Re: [9fans] Mousing is faster than typing but users do not believe it

2011-06-15 Thread Jack Norton

dexen deVries wrote:

On Wednesday 15 of June 2011 18:23:56 David Leimbach wrote:

http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2657135


I'm getting tired of the level of groupthink. Yesterday it was about 
Anthropogenetic Global Warming^W^W^W Anthropogenic Climate Change (with a 
comment stating pretty much ``whether the themperatures go up or down it will 
be /obviously/ our fault anyway''); today it's mouse vs. keyboard. The 
argument? ``it feels faster in my Vim''. Geebuz.


my take on it at
http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2657818




eh, I always figured that if you are proficient at a given interface 
(you're over the learning curve) the differences here are minimal at 
best.  So what if I gain a few seconds here and there.  I'm going to be 
stuck behind the computer for a few hours anyway...


In the case of plan 9, I love how the textual interfaces it promotes 
have *everything* in front of you.  No bloody expanding menus, or 
mouse-hover pop-up retardations.  So nevermind the speed, it is the 
consistency and elegance that should matter.  For the sake of sanity, 
not speed.


Would Plan 9 (rio) benefit from a default mapping of magic keystrokes 
that correspond to certain actions? I think so.  But only as a means of 
saving your ass when your mouse explodes.  Even then, grab another pc 
and drawterm or cpu in.


I will say that some of the cool cording in Plan 9 interfaces will soon 
find a perfect mate in the capacitive or infrared touchscreens of today 
and tomorrow (single, double, triple finger taps on the screen, etc...). 
 That is my take anyway.


-Jack



[9fans] Survey: Current Fossil+venti Filesystem

2011-06-22 Thread Jack Norton

Fellow 9fans,

I am about to build a large-ish fileserver to go along with my cpu/auth 
machines (native and qemu).


I'd like to know some recent real world experiences with fossil+venti. 
This stems from rumors that for some people, fossil has a history of 
data loss.  I don't like rumors (or data loss), and I'm not on IRC long 
enough to digest the gossip, so I want a survey:


who here has lost data with a fossil+venti setup and what were the 
circumstances therein?  Also what failed?  Did fossil get hosed and you 
had to recall the last snap -- was that successful?  Did your venti 
index get mangled?  Did a bunch of porn suddenly show up in your usr 
directory (I think we know who's fault that is)?  Your dog tripping over 
the power cord with no battery backup doesn't count...


I know this probably gets discussed on IRC all the time, but 9fans 
serves as my "stream of thought" manual for plan 9 with permanent 
records of damn good information.  Plus I am tired of this damn mousing 
debacle -- I'm about to filter out that thread.


-Jack



Re: [9fans] Survey: Current Fossil+venti Filesystem

2011-06-23 Thread Jack Norton

All of these are great reports and are what I expected.  Thanks.

David du Colombier wrote:

These problems with Fossil just have to be fixed. I am currently working
on a fossil derivative which use libventi and libthread instead of
liboventi and eventually fix these problems. I am already running it
on some test file servers, but it's too early to talk about experiences
with it.

I had heard of someone working on a fossil derivative with libventi, I 
didn't know it was you.  Is the code public yet?  I'd give it a stress 
testing of my own eventually if given the chance.


I don't think I will ever stress things as much as some of you all 
though -- I just use this for personal use  (I'll just say that I've got 
2 soekris boards and they are plenty for what I do -- I guess I'm just 
patient).


Charles, I'm glad you pointed out your woes with the SSD, I had 
considered purchasing an SSD for my cpu/fs but I didn't want to gamble 
with such a costly device.  Now I have every reason to avoid it (I've 
seen similar testimonies).  I figured flash memory was perfect for venti 
-- but not without some stability.  Plus, there are 1TB 2.5" consumer 
drives out for just north of $100!  What a world we live in.  By the 
time I fill that, there will be 2TB 2.5" drives...


Cheers,
Jack





Re: [9fans] Survey: Current Fossil+venti Filesystem

2011-06-23 Thread Jack Norton

erik quanstrom wrote:
On the other hand, if you can burn $$$, there are enterprisey SSDs based on 
SLC Flash, built in form of PCIE cards, should be quite reliable.




i think the pcie form factor for a hard drive is a trap.
pcie is not easily hot swappable, and more expensive
than a number of smaller devices that can be mirrored,
thus not leading to an expensive single point of failure.
- erik



Now that you mention pcie drives, has anyone used those little mini-pcie 
ssd's that fit on some atom motherboards?  Might be a convenient 
location for fossil (what are they like 16GB?).  That is if they are 
supported.  I've never even been near one.  Does it get attached to the 
disk controller via sata (by way of magic)? Or does it do something 
completely different that I cannot fathom?


Those I wouldn't consider 'a trap' as they have a bright future on 
laptop motherboards and hot swap isn't even a useful feature in that case.


-jack



[9fans] Cheap ARM board to play with

2011-06-24 Thread Jack Norton

All,

I just had to post this on 9fans.  Sorry if everyone has already seen it.
http://www.mini-box.com/pico-SAM9G45-X

It is $69 USD.  I can't even remember how the ARM port is going but this 
might be some cheap hardware to get up and running.  I've never tried 
getting an ARM board working under plan 9 so I am hesitant.  If I can 
convince myself I've got the time, I will buy one.
They've even got schematics posted on their wiki (link can be found if 
you follow the above URL).


-Jack



Re: [9fans] interesting(?) widgets idea

2011-07-12 Thread Jack Norton

yy wrote:

2011/7/12 dexen deVries :

on an unrelated note, it seems to me websites with large horizontal margins are 
synonymous with bullet-point engineering and little to no useful content.



http://cm.bell-labs.com/plan9/



This made my morning, thank you.


On a related note, I was taught in my technical writing class in college 
to preserve a "small sea of white space" in technical documents.  This 
allowed the reader to not get lost in words.  It was aimed squarely at 
the "justified" paragraph alignment as named by MS Word and how stupid 
it looks.  I personally subscribe to that idea whole heartedly.  In a 
sense, margins to add to such a technique.  Obviously though, it can be 
over done.


-Jack



Re: [9fans] interesting(?) widgets idea

2011-07-13 Thread Jack Norton

dexen deVries wrote:


if the user hovers mouse over widget area, it would be understood as intention 
to activate widgets, triggering their visibility.

...
in other words, all the widgets (menus included) of an app turned into margins 
when mouse's /not/ over those widgets.




eeek!
Am I the only one who doesn't like this idea?  I cannot stand programs 
that change their visual representation based upon where the mouse is, 
or what the keyboard meta keys are up to, etc...
Microsoft Office comes to mind (and then the hover-only menus fade in 
and out like it's 1999).  Stupid goddamn flash/js menus on websites that 
expand when you hover over them then break when you move the mouse 
to the menu item you'd like (rinse and repeat...).
I like acme because it doesn't change its appearance no matter where I 
put my mouse, nor does it have menus that appear only when I bark at it. 
 The rio menus are unfortunate, but in that context it is the best it 
could be I think.  I do admit though, as was mentioned earlier, rio's 
'memory' of what I last selected in its menus as the next default is 
very unfortunate.  I've gotten used to that though.


The worst... and I mean worst case of hover-only features is the stupid 
system tray clock in windows xp.  I never now when it will be gracious 
enough to give me that little pop-up that tells me the full date/time. 
Or in second place, that little pop-up in windows explorer that gives me 
a (bad) summary of folder contents/size.  It's a crap shoot.  Hover-only 
stuff is a disease.


-Jack



Re: [9fans] 9fans archive engine

2011-07-14 Thread Jack Norton

Russ Cox wrote:

On Thu, Jul 14, 2011 at 10:28 AM, Yaroslav  wrote:

Is the software which powers 9fans web archive publicly available?


it's not.


ahem... let me put on my pedantic shoes...
9fans.net/archive wrote:
> "powered by grep(1)  "




Re: [9fans] cheep ssds

2011-08-03 Thread Jack Norton

erik quanstrom wrote:

i just got a 40gb intel ssd for building up a new file
server.  i really wasn't expecting 275 out of a theoretical
300mb/s.  maybe i forgot how to count and it's actually
27.5.  :-)

blakely# time dd -if /dev/sdE0/data -of /dev/null -bs 512k -count 100
100+0 records in
100+0 records out
0.00u 0.01s 0.19rdd -if /dev/sdE0/data -of /dev/null ...
blakely# hoc
512*1024*100/0.19
275941052.6316

- erik



I'd be curious on an update in the future concerning reliability.  I 
think you of all people could give it a good workout.  I'd love to put a 
cache (or a worm when prices come down on high capacity guys) on an ssd 
in plan 9, but I am expecting it to quit after a few months for some 
reason...  I'm not very trusting for some reason.


-Jack



Re: [9fans] Fossil fs recovery

2011-08-11 Thread Jack Norton

David Leimbach wrote:
Is it obvious enough from the man pages that this wouldn't be too useful 
to have on the Plan 9 wiki?  

I'm a big believer in the wiki, but not when it pushes one to avoid 
reading the authoritative documentation of the man pages.


Dave


http://www.plan9.bell-labs.com/wiki/plan9/Setting_up_Venti/index.html

has the gist of setting up venti by hand.  The bits on re-configuring 
Fossil aren't there (save for the mention of the venti environment 
variable).  In my mind the man pages pick up the slack of the wiki in 
this case.


Also, I personally use the 9fans archive as my own personal manual next 
to the man pages (and at last resort the wiki).  I for some reason 
always get the impression that the wiki is missing bits... so I use it 
only has a means of discovering just what man page exactly I should be 
reading :)


-Jack



[9fans] Those power-saving USB drives and Plan 9

2011-08-18 Thread Jack Norton

Greetings,

I'm shopping around for a 2.5" usb enclosure/drive solution for some 
cool and quiet backup.  I'm reading that lots of these enclosures spin 
down the disks when they feel like it.
Now, this might be more broad than a Plan 9 question, but I'd simply 
like to know if this is a safe 'feature' to use?  Both from a 
reliability standpoint (why not just keep it warm and spinning?) and 
from a Plan 9 compatibility standpoint (will that long pause before 
spinning up give me grief?).

I've never used this kind of thing before so pardon the naïvety.

Also, I'll mention that I am not interested in "cheating" this feature 
by touching a file every 30 seconds or some other hack.  I've not 
purchased yet, so I've an opportunity to do it right from the start.


-Jack



Re: [9fans] Intel atom system

2011-08-26 Thread Jack Norton

John Floren wrote:

On Fri, Aug 12, 2011 at 1:42 AM, Ruckdashel  wrote:

i'm looking at building a system to get my plan9 tinkering out of VMs.
I'm looking at using a zotac Ionitx-t-u mobo with a sata ssd. I'm
curious if any one has tried this mobo. I'm trying to avoid having
another linux box lying around.




We tried a Zotac IONITX-G-E board here but found that it didn't work
with Plan 9... I don't remember what the problem was, probably either
the ethernet or the SATA controller (the usual suspects).

The Intel D510MO was more compatible (worked with 9atom, don't
remember if we tried it with stock), cheaper ($75 at Frys, I think),
and smaller (about 6"x6").


John



Hi,

I have a few of these little boards (D510MO).  I read both on Eric's 
site and this list that someone had these working, but I am having issues.
I've tried the lab's 9pcf, 9pccd, and 9pcf/9pccd from Eric's ftp server 
 (I had assumed they were from 9atom... maybe that was a bad 
assumption).  I also tried 9pcf from 9front.


The lab's kernels never found the sata drives (I supposed I expected 
that), and all the others find the sata hardware, but hang right after 
memory capacities are printed (gee, I've seen this before... what could 
it be this time... :)).


Without me having to try a zillion different kernel/bootloader 
combinations, would the people who use the D510MO sound off what 
kernel/loader they are using?  I'd be much obliged.


THanks,

Jack



Re: [9fans] Intel atom system

2011-09-06 Thread Jack Norton

 > Hi,


I have a few of these little boards (D510MO).  I read both on Eric's 
site and this list that someone had these working, but I am having issues.
I've tried the lab's 9pcf, 9pccd, and 9pcf/9pccd from Eric's ftp server 
 (I had assumed they were from 9atom... maybe that was a bad 
assumption).  I also tried 9pcf from 9front.


The lab's kernels never found the sata drives (I supposed I expected 
that), and all the others find the sata hardware, but hang right after 
memory capacities are printed (gee, I've seen this before... what could 
it be this time... :)).


Without me having to try a zillion different kernel/bootloader 
combinations, would the people who use the D510MO sound off what 
kernel/loader they are using?  I'd be much obliged.


THanks,

Jack



As an update I'd like to point out that the D510MO works fine with 9atom 
or 9front kernels (lab's kernels = no sata).  I in fact had a bad board. 
 I wanted to point that out so that no one was discouraged from trying 
one of these little buggers out.  At $70 a pop though, I'd be ready for 
some QC issues, which I suspect I may have stumbled upon.  There is 
always the off chance that I fried it though...


-Jack



Re: [9fans] Plan 9 is dead

2011-09-15 Thread Jack Norton

Christoph Lohmann wrote:

Hello,

now that an academic non-polished Plan 9 remake with idiotic
dependencies and the fun OS, which has its only goal to add
political jokes, are taking all the pace, I hereby declare,
that Plan 9 is MORE ALIVE THAN EVER.

Rest In Peace.


Sincerely,

Christoph Lohmann



FTFY



[9fans] is there a at91 port?

2011-10-27 Thread Jack Norton

Hello,

I am asking around to see if there is anyone working on a port to the 
Atmel at91 platform (sam9xxx boards)?


I have one somewhere (just finding the damn thing might take a while), 
and I am going to slowly start figuring this out.  Honestly though, it 
is my first attempt at anything like this, so don't expect anything out 
of me.


By the way, any tips (i.e. links to literature) would be greatly 
appreciated.  This is a learning experience.


-Jack



Re: [9fans] Returning to Plan 9: Virtualization, Distributions

2011-11-22 Thread Jack Norton

On 11/22/2011 9:39 AM, Joel C. Salomon wrote:

After a long hiatus, I'd like to get back to experimenting with Plan
9.  I have an Ubuntu Linux laptop with AMD's virtualization extensions
supported by the CPU, so I figure my best bet is one of the umpteen
virtualization tools.  Which is best supported by Plan 9 — virtualbox,
qemu, or something else?

Also, what distributions are best for amd64?  Bell Labs'? 9front? 9atom?

Thanks,
—Joel




I have had good luck with qemu-kvm.  I've even got a VPS running with 
all the management bells and wistles like libvirt and such.  It has been 
running solid since march (lab's plan9 with fossil only).
I ran a qemu/kvm instance at home for a while too.  That was under 
archlinux though (and an AMD cpu with the necessary extensions).
In the former case I had to really play with plan9.ini to get it to boot 
all the way, but it required nothing out of the ordinary in the end. 
Choose your virtualized NIC wisely I suppose.


-Jack



Re: [9fans] (no subject)

2011-12-30 Thread Jack Norton

On 12/30/2011 12:08 PM, erik quanstrom wrote:

It might be a bit
much for home use, but if I had a little bit of a budget I'd use Coraid's AoE
stuff as the basis for my storage.


Yeah, it's pretty overkill.  I've previously worked at a storage
company as a file system guy and now I have at home a nice array with
ZFS on top.  It works great, but I want to scale down.  I want less
stuff, not more.  And I want to use Plan9, not Solaris.


aoe doesn't require solaris, or any other operating system.
you can use it directly with a plan 9 file server, as i do.

- erik



I don't think he was implying that one needed the other.  In any case I 
figured I would ask -- are there any plans for a small scale AoE 
appliance from coraid?  Didn't there used to be a single drive AoE kit 
long ago?
What is the list's personal/home usage of AoE like?  Do you guys use 
generic hardware and something like vblade (or those other ones people 
have made for linux like ggblade or whatever it is called)?


-Jack



Re: [9fans] (no subject)

2011-12-30 Thread Jack Norton

On 12/30/2011 3:05 PM, erik quanstrom wrote:

Does the Coraid applience implement RAID in hardware or does it use
fs(3) or another software solution?


if a coraid appliance were pcie-attached rather than ethernet attached,
would you still ask this question?  do you think the block diagram of coraid
hardware looks fundamentally different than the block diagram of a raid
card?

- erik



I think he is trying to get you to divulge details on the software 
running on the coraid appliance itself.  We all know it is plan 9 based 
(right?), so it would be interesting to know how this extra 
functionality of raid was added.  I know these are trade secrets though 
so I've never asked.


I would still ask that question if it were pcie attached.  Curiosity 
will be my undoing though.


-Jack



Re: [9fans] ramfs, fossil, venti etc.

2012-01-04 Thread Jack Norton

On 1/4/2012 2:58 AM, Vivien MOREAU wrote:

Hello Thierry,

tlaro...@polynum.com writes:


My date is organized, at least, in three distinct chunks:

1) The data that I use read-only (written by someone else and that can
be retrieved at will). So are the sources for the OSes etc., that I may
backup (on optical disks) from time to time, but for what I don't need
an archival filesystem (no snapshots; no backup)
=>  For this, if I understand: fossil alone, no venti, and setting
snaptime so that the low epoch is very need to the higher one.


You don't need to have several fossil on the disk. Just use chmod +t
/usr/tlaronde/rodata in order to avoid archiving your read-only data on
venti.



I don't follow.  Wouldn't read only data be perfect for venti?  If I had 
a bunch of files that I would never need changed, I would just throw 
them directly into venti and be done with it.  Couldn't you just push 
those files onto your venti srv, and access them through other methods 
besides fossil, bypassing this whole snapshot thing all together?


I'm curious also how much ram this beast will have.  Are you building a 
new machine?


-Jack




Re: [9fans] Config File parsing

2012-02-27 Thread Jack Norton

On 2/27/2012 7:18 AM, erik quanstrom wrote:

For this could someone please tell me how to write a lex and yacc
program.


you may wish to consult the dragon book.  just google it.

- erik



FYI I just bought my copy on Amazon used for $3.48 USD ($3.99 
shipping).  It is a hardcopy in great shape too!


-Jack



Re: [9fans] Question about usage of Plan 9 based os systems

2012-03-21 Thread Jack Norton

On 3/14/2012 4:08 PM, Paschke Christoph wrote:

for me very interesting question:

who use a Plan 9 system productive?
who use it for research?
who use it just because bored with Linux as a tec gaming site?
who use it commercial in a business?
who use it on an embedded device?
who programs with limbo?

what else?



Although I used to use it in a graduate school setting as my main 
desktop (so writing thesis, remote connections to unix machines), I now 
simply have a VPS that runs it (well, 9front now).  It is used as a 
playground for little experiments and projects that aren't tied to an 
existing platform (i.e. I don't need some massive toolkit).  I also 
cannot find a better text content creation platform (tex,troff).
I can't stress enough, however, the value of having a native 
installation close by.  It provides an unparalleled focus on the 
platform itself that a virtual machine (or remote machine) just doesn't 
offer (and I can't offer any good reason *why* this is -- i'd wager it 
is just a placebo effect).  To that end I do have some atom boards that 
are in the queue as soon as I have a free weekend.


The 'productive' question doesn't apply to me.  I'm not productive on 
linux or plan 9.


-Jack



Re: [9fans] Summary of acme chords

2012-04-25 Thread Jack Norton

On 4/25/2012 11:50 AM, Jacob Todd wrote:

Aren't all of the chords in the acme paper and/or man page?


The acme paper isn't as descriptive as the man page on the subject. 
There is a section for individual mouse buttons and a dedicated section 
for chording (keep going down...).  Some of the subtle nuances are 
explained.  In my opinion this needs to really be read over a few times 
until you've got it.
I think the same man page is in p9p but I wouldn't know (in fact I 
suppose there are differences? -- maybe not in the chording bit).
Now, the sam language quick reference card that one 9fan composed long 
ago... THAT is a great little thing to have handy.  I printed it out but 
removed the file so I don't have a link handy.


-Jack





Re: [9fans] Location of plan9.ini

2012-05-10 Thread Jack Norton

On 5/10/2012 7:38 AM, IainWS wrote:

On May 10, 10:15 pm, quans...@quanstro.net (erik quanstrom) wrote:

Yes, but I get /bin/9fat does not exist.


don't drop the ":".  you need to type "9fat:".

- erik


Thanks mate it worked first go.



I know this will sound terribly stupid but I've a good beginners tip:
open up two rio windows (nice and large).  in one, `lc /bin`.  in the 
other, go through each binary in bin you listed and execute.  If 
something isn't obvious, then man that binary.  if there is no man page, 
go to /sys/src/cmd and find the source and read it.

After that, then have a look in /rc/bin as well.

Just poke around.  Assume that you will probably hose your system a few 
times in the process.  In fact, if you haven't hosed your system yet, 
you aren't climbing up the learning curve.


-Jack



Re: [9fans] I will buy laptop pre-installed with plan9!!!

2012-05-10 Thread Jack Norton

On 5/10/2012 3:09 AM, yang.zhao wrote:

Really? Wonderful..
Is there some docs for install Plan 9(more detail)?
x201 doesn't have a CD-ROM..
Thx.


--
K.I.S.S.


The 9front bootloader can boot from a USB disk.  You can then throw a 
plan9 iso on the disk and go from there.

http://code.google.com/p/plan9front/wiki/usbboot

I'd think you would be able to use a lab's plan9 iso in place of the 
9front iso listed in that wiki. I've never tried so don't get crabby if 
it doesn't work.  It will work just fine however, as written.


-Jack



Re: [9fans] I will buy laptop pre-installed with plan9!!!

2012-05-10 Thread Jack Norton

On 5/10/2012 10:15 AM, Charles Forsyth wrote:

If you're using USB, why would you bother with ISO format?

On 10 May 2012 13:57, Jack Norton mailto:j...@0x6a.com>>
wrote:

The 9front bootloader can boot from a USB disk.  You can then throw
a plan9 iso on the disk and go from there.




Just pure convenience I suppose.  And by that I of course mean lazyness. 
 Chances are I've got an iso laying around and would ensure me a fresh 
install.
Well, I'm done defending that ISO idea.  6 of 1, half dozen of another I 
suppose.


-Jack



Re: [9fans] Thinkpad T61 Installation Experience

2012-05-17 Thread Jack Norton

On 5/17/2012 7:39 AM, Burton Samograd wrote:

I think I'll have to stick with 9front.  I tried the official dist CD
and 9atom last night and both managed to install this time but
rebooting either of them would give a "no bootfile" error and a '>'
prompt that would take no input.  9front is the only dist that works
reliably enough to install a boot on this machine.

I have a question about the 9front/cwfs64x default partition layout,
which I picked because I'm a noob with this.  On my 80G did, it
suggested a ~10G other, ~10G fscache, and a ~50G fsworm parition.
After rebooting it looks like other is where my user directory is.  So
with this layout of the fs, does that mean I have 10G of user data
space, 10G for my 'root' file system and the other 50G is for the
wayback machine feature of the fs?  If so that seems pretty excessive,
but then again I don't think I'll be watching many movies on my p9
system so I think it will take me a while to fill up the 10G
allocated.

Could anybody explain the csfw64x default partitioning scheme on
9front a bit for me?  Thanks.

--
Burton Samograd

 Please read cwfs(4) man page.  In there is a description of the 
different partitions and their uses.  In particular you don't want 
fscache to fill up as it causes the front to fall off.
It sounds also like you may need to read up on cache/worm filesystems in 
general.  in your case 10G is not all you've got available for 'root', 
just what you've got available for new writes between dumps to worm.


-Jack



Re: [9fans] I will buy laptop pre-installed with plan9!!!

2012-05-17 Thread Jack Norton

On 5/17/2012 10:41 AM, Jack Johnson wrote:

Quick tangent, is there anyone out there whose favorite environment is
non-native? Maybe 9vx or plan9ports on specific hardware? Your secret
sam port to Windows 8's Metro UI?

For all I know, plan9ports full screen on a MacBook Air is Glenda's
Elysian field. Maybe something dual-screen with Chrome on the next
monitor over. I know someone out there has a setup they've nestled
into and are slightly cringing at the thought of his or her next
machine or OS transition because right now life is good.

-Jack

All the things you describe here sound like a user interface hellscape. 
 Especially the macbook air and plan9port.  I'd rather use a slide rule 
and some cocktail napkins.
I drawterm to a few native/qemu-kvm servers and I've got a limping 
netbook that runs native.  More native to come.  I stay away from 
non-native plan9 tools.  They end up being frustrating to me.  My 
slackware installations already have unix tools.  Sometimes simplicity 
is better found using what you've got, rather than shoehorning some 
"better solution" into some unwilling host.


-jack



Re: [9fans] I will buy laptop pre-installed with plan9!!!

2012-05-17 Thread Jack Norton

On 5/17/2012 12:31 PM, Justin Bedo wrote:

I use abaco all the time for my roleplaying, btw, I like
it. It handles Simple Machines forums quite nicely, and most of my
comics too.


I tried to use abaco but it doesn't seem to like google's website.
Clicking any of the results links shows a redirection error page from
google.  I haven't had any time to look into this problem yet.



This works in mothra with webfs.  I like mothra much better than abaco.
It is included in 9front, or alternatively grab it from the 9front 
google code page.  It uses 9front's webfs as well.


-Jack



Re: [9fans] apparently nice summary of small linux pcs

2012-07-16 Thread Jack Norton

I'd like to share with everyone that I've just purchased one of these:
https://www.olimex.com/dev/imx233-olinuxino-micro.html

I liked how they have all their schematics and layouts are on github and 
that the freescale chip would be a bit friendlier than something from 
nvidia or broadcom (not to mention you can actually purchase low qty of 
this chip if you wanted to).  There is a larger version as well (go to 
Olimex's main site and navigate to the product family 'olinuxino').


I've always had good experiences with Olimex stuff.  I am really glad to 
see them still in operation.


-Jack




Re: [9fans] It seems Plan 9 is on Hacker News

2012-08-20 Thread Jack Norton

On 8/20/2012 3:48 AM, Balwinder S Dheeman wrote:

office productivity suites, relational
databases, and, or even a decent web browser like Chromium, or Firefox,
modren C++ compiler, good GUI tool-kit or widgets


These all have an "all useful features" version on plan9 called catclock.