Re: [9fans] 9p on Yeeloong (gNewSense Linux)
> lu...@proxima.alt.za: > but I know that I haven't yet > found a CPU architecture I dislike more then the Intel i386 Ever tried the 6502?
[9fans] Guide to using Acme effectively?
Hello everyone, I am taking the Acme workflow for a spin. I am coming from Emacs and Vi. I have read the manual and the original paper discussing the motivations behind its design. I am familiar with mouse based editing in the NEdit style to ane extent that I can use it properly with NEdit, but I am having trouble understanding just how the workflows of Acme work with real world type questions. Is there anything out there that would help me connect some of the tasks I often wish to do with the efficient Acme approach? I'm missing small things, like how to select and move all the text in one window to another in a fast manner, but I'm also missing big things like how to quickly navigate through to specific parts of a file and how to reduce redundancy of typing and movement. Does anyone have any suggestions? Aaron W. Hsu -- Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. -- C. S. Lewis
Re: [9fans] Guide to using Acme effectively?
> some of the tasks I often wish to do with the efficient Acme approach? I'm > missing small things, like how to select and move all the text in one > window to another in a fast manner, there are a couple of options "Edit ," will select all the text in a window. but "|cat $file" will replace the dot with the contents of $file. i'm not sure that this is either non-obvious or helpful. that's not something i do with acme. > but I'm also missing big things like > how to quickly navigate through to specific parts of a file and how to > reduce redundancy of typing and movement. i'm not sure what kind of text file you're talking about. i generally put unique text for each of the sections i'm currently intereted in in the tag. - erik
Re: [9fans] Guide to using Acme effectively?
> [...] but I'm also missing big things like > how to quickly navigate through to specific parts of a file and how to > reduce redundancy of typing and movement. > Here's how I navigate through my various files in acme: The old standard, the arrow keys. Type ":100" in the tag and left-click to go to line 100. Mid-click and hold on the scrollbar to scroll efficiently. Type text in the tag and left-click to search. If you're going to complain about redundancy of movement regarding the hand to the keyboard, acme might not be for you. I think Tog's conclusions (the single set of studies put forth whenever this thing comes up) are poorly made and that there is a lot to be said for efficient keyboard use, but acme really works quite nicely for me--I don't feel that I'm wasting time mousing around, for the most part. Just give it a shot. There's no magical trick to using acme quickly and effectively; just like any editor, you'll have to get used to it and figure out how you want to use it. John
Re: [9fans] Guide to using Acme effectively?
>I think Tog's conclusions (the single set of studies put forth whenever this >thing >comes up) are poorly made ... it turns out that there is rather older work that supports much the same conclusion, which i probably saw mentioned in HCI Remixed, since that's one i've read recently.
Re: [9fans] Guide to using Acme effectively?
On Jul 1, 2009, at 12:46, Charles Forsyth wrote: I think Tog's conclusions (the single set of studies put forth whenever this thing comes up) are poorly made ... it turns out that there is rather older work that supports much the same conclusion, which i probably saw mentioned in HCI Remixed, since that's one i've read recently. I've seen a couple of independent time trials from the mid 80s that supported the same conclusion.
Re: [9fans] Guide to using Acme effectively?
On Jul 1, 2009, at 11:58, j...@csplan9.rit.edu wrote: [...] but I'm also missing big things like how to quickly navigate through to specific parts of a file and how to reduce redundancy of typing and movement. Here's how I navigate through my various files in acme: The old standard, the arrow keys. Type ":100" in the tag and left-click to go to line 100. Mid-click and hold on the scrollbar to scroll efficiently. Type text in the tag and left-click to search. There's also the End key. If you're going to complain about redundancy of movement regarding the hand to the keyboard, acme might not be for you. I think Tog's conclusions (the single set of studies put forth whenever this thing comes up) are poorly made and that there is a lot to be said for efficient keyboard use, but acme really works quite nicely for me--I don't feel that I'm wasting time mousing around, for the most part. Just give it a shot. There's no magical trick to using acme quickly and effectively; just like any editor, you'll have to get used to it and figure out how you want to use it. John
Re: [9fans] Guide to using Acme effectively?
> On Jul 1, 2009, at 12:46, Charles Forsyth wrote: > >>> I think Tog's conclusions (the single set of studies put forth >>> whenever this thing >>> comes up) are poorly made ... >> >> it turns out that there is rather older work that supports >> much the same conclusion, which i probably saw mentioned in HCI >> Remixed, >> since that's one i've read recently. >> > > I've seen a couple of independent time trials from the mid 80s that > supported the same conclusion. I won't dispute the conclusions on the time criteria. I'm just not sure time is the right thing to measure. I spend relatively little of my time actually typing or moving the cursor, etc. The majority of my time is spent thinking, so I'm much more interested in what distracts me less and what causes the least irritation. And I do find moving my hand back and forth between the keyboard and mouse to be a bit irritating. I will say, however, that I find acme to be the least irritating of the pointer-based applications I've used. BLS
Re: [9fans] Guide to using Acme effectively?
On Wed, Jul 01, 2009 at 02:53:09PM -0400, J. R. Mauro wrote: it turns out that there is rather older work that supports much the same conclusion, which i probably saw mentioned in HCI Remixed, since that's one i've read recently. I've seen a couple of independent time trials from the mid 80s that supported the same conclusion. References would be nice, but I think it would be fair to say that both mouse- and keyboard-based user interfaces have evolved (or perhaps devolved) since the '80s. It's also fair to say that most interfaces these use a fairly heavy combination of the keyboard and mouse (especially those interfaces used by professionals, including CAD, music composition, and graphic design). But, even if we do, in fact, have well designed studies that suggest some optimal mix of keyboard and mouse interaction in the general case, I suspect that they won't say much about the specific case of acme. (end long-winded rant) -- Kris Maglione Perhaps when a man has special knowledge and special powers like my own, it rather encourages him to seek a complex explanation when a simpler one is at hand. --"Sherlock Holmes"
Re: [9fans] Guide to using Acme effectively?
> I spend relatively little of my time actually typing > or moving the cursor, etc. The majority of my time > is spent thinking, so I'm much more interested in > what distracts me less and what causes the least > irritation. And I do find moving my hand back and > forth between the keyboard and mouse to be a > bit irritating. I will say, however, that I find acme > to be the least irritating of the pointer-based > applications I've used. perhaps i should have taken piano, but i find the contortions kbd-based editors such as vi or emacs require to be quite irritating indeed. fumbling for the esc key takes ones left hand out of position as much as grabbing the mouse does for the right hand. i've enjoyed using ibm's trackpoint, but i've got two thumbs and acme needs three buttons. clearly there's room for improvement in input devices. - erik
Re: [9fans] Guide to using Acme effectively?
Arguing about mouse vs keyboard misses the point. I'm very happy with acme's use of the mouse, but acme's power comes from the rest of its design. Russ
Re: [9fans] Guide to using Acme effectively?
> perhaps i should have taken piano, but i find the That's an interesting observation. As it turns out I do play, and it's certainly possible that it colors my taste in UIs. > contortions kbd-based editors such as vi or emacs > require to be quite irritating indeed. fumbling for I don't disagree with you there. > the esc key takes ones left hand out of position I'm less sensitive to esc, probably because I used teco heavily in college. Of course, the fact that esc is in the wrong place on current keyboards doesn't help any. > i've enjoyed using ibm's trackpoint, but i've got > two thumbs and acme needs three buttons. > clearly there's room for improvement in input > devices. Agreed on both points. BLS
Re: [9fans] Guide to using Acme effectively?
> Arguing about mouse vs keyboard misses the point. > I'm very happy with acme's use of the mouse, but > acme's power comes from the rest of its design. I think that's why I find acme's use of the pointer to be more paletable than other apps. The one thing that no UI study ever measures is how much using an app gives one a feeling of connection to the intelligence behind it. And a good design helps build that connection. I've never really felt that with any commercial software that I can recall. But I do feel it with most parts of Plan 9. For me, that's the single most important factor in how plesant a piece of software is to use. BLS
Re: [9fans] Guide to using Acme effectively?
This page collects some tips for working more efficiently with an acme-like program. http://www.cse.yorku.ca/~oz/wily/idioms.html wily is a unix port of just acme which rarely gets updated. It has a few differences, mostly in the direction of being more unixy. I used it for 5 years before switching wholly over to plan9port. Probably its greatest advantage to me now is that it's small and compiles easy to any platform I've tried: Linux, Solaris, even Cygwin. So I tend to load it on machines I will be on only briefly, to avoid having to use vi or emacs. Jason Catena
Re: [9fans] Guide to using Acme effectively?
It's not how you say something, it's what you say. On Wed, Jul 1, 2009 at 9:24 PM, wrote: >> On Jul 1, 2009, at 12:46, Charles Forsyth wrote: >> I think Tog's conclusions (the single set of studies put forth whenever this thing comes up) are poorly made ... >>> >>> it turns out that there is rather older work that supports >>> much the same conclusion, which i probably saw mentioned in HCI >>> Remixed, >>> since that's one i've read recently. >>> >> >> I've seen a couple of independent time trials from the mid 80s that >> supported the same conclusion. > > I won't dispute the conclusions on the time criteria. > I'm just not sure time is the right thing to measure. > I spend relatively little of my time actually typing > or moving the cursor, etc. The majority of my time > is spent thinking, so I'm much more interested in > what distracts me less and what causes the least > irritation. And I do find moving my hand back and > forth between the keyboard and mouse to be a > bit irritating. I will say, however, that I find acme > to be the least irritating of the pointer-based > applications I've used. > > BLS > > >
Re: [9fans] Guide to using Acme effectively?
On Wed Jul 1 16:29:23 EDT 2009, noah.ev...@gmail.com wrote: > It's not how you say something, it's what you say. you must be a bachelor. ☺ - erik
Re: [9fans] Guide to using Acme effectively?
> wily is a unix port of just acme which rarely gets updated. wily is a reimplementation of acme from the papers; wily is to acme as byron's rc is to rc. - erik
Re: [9fans] Guide to using Acme effectively?
On Wed, Jul 1, 2009 at 12:49 PM, Russ Cox wrote: > Arguing about mouse vs keyboard misses the point. > I'm very happy with acme's use of the mouse, but > acme's power comes from the rest of its design. > > Russ > > Even in Emacs, I use the mouse because pointing the insertion point or cursor or whatever to where I need to type next is *much* faster than many repetitions of a keypress a lot of the time. Sometimes I do only need to travel up or down one line at a time though, and then the mouse seems like a waste of time to grab, so I just ctrl-n or ctrl-p in Emacs to get there (yes I don't use arrows unless I have to, and no this didn't feel natural for a long time). I suspect there's no perfect editor interface available. All of them beat editing crap on my iPhone :-) Dave
Re: [9fans] Guide to using Acme effectively?
On Wed, 1 Jul 2009 15:00:01 -0500 blstu...@bellsouth.net wrote: > > perhaps i should have taken piano, but i find the > > That's an interesting observation. As it turns out I > do play, and it's certainly possible that it colors my > taste in UIs. > > > contortions kbd-based editors such as vi or emacs > > require to be quite irritating indeed. fumbling for > > I don't disagree with you there. Me either, I like vi better than emacs simply because it requires fingertwisting much more rarely. > > > the esc key takes ones left hand out of position > > I'm less sensitive to esc, probably because I used teco > heavily in college. Of course, the fact that esc is in > the wrong place on current keyboards doesn't help > any. I wish I'd kept the original IBM PC (Not AT) keyboard I had. Esc was at the left of 1, and the numeric pad wasn't stupidly far off to the right. Linux has a driver for PC keyboards too. > > > i've enjoyed using ibm's trackpoint, but i've got > > two thumbs and acme needs three buttons. > > clearly there's room for improvement in input > > devices. > > Agreed on both points. > > BLS > > -- Ethan Grammatikidis Those who are slower at parsing information must necessarily be faster at problem-solving.
Re: [9fans] Guide to using Acme effectively?
On Wed, Jul 1, 2009 at 1:58 PM, David Leimbach wrote: > > > On Wed, Jul 1, 2009 at 12:49 PM, Russ Cox wrote: >> >> Arguing about mouse vs keyboard misses the point. >> I'm very happy with acme's use of the mouse, but >> acme's power comes from the rest of its design. >> >> Russ >> > > Even in Emacs, I use the mouse because pointing the insertion point or > cursor or whatever to where I need to type next is *much* faster than many > repetitions of a keypress a lot of the time. > Sometimes I do only need to travel up or down one line at a time though, and > then the mouse seems like a waste of time to grab, so I just ctrl-n or > ctrl-p in Emacs to get there (yes I don't use arrows unless I have to, and > no this didn't feel natural for a long time). > I suspect there's no perfect editor interface available. All of them beat > editing crap on my iPhone :-) > Dave I have a weird love-hate relationship with keybindings in Emacs. That is, I wish they were slightly more Unix-ized instead of whatever arbitrary junk they decided on back in the ITS days. Ctrl-U should delete from your cursor to the start of the line, and Ctrl-H should do a backspace, not open Help! The ^H problem is especially annoying on my Slackware box, where I apparently can't hit the Backspace key in console-mode Emacs or else I'll open the help window. Still, emacs makes for a decent dev environment (it's where I write most of my Unix code) and if I ever got motivated enough, it's nice that it has a fully-featured Lisp environment for extending stuff. John -- "I've tried programming Ruby on Rails, following TechCrunch in my RSS reader, and drinking absinthe. It doesn't work. I'm going back to C, Hunter S. Thompson, and cheap whiskey." -- Ted Dziuba
Re: [9fans] Guide to using Acme effectively?
2009/7/1 Aaron W. Hsu : > how to > quickly navigate through to specific parts of a file and how to reduce > redundancy of typing and movement. > Maybe I'm alone doing this, but I tend to avoid movement inside a file abusing of the Zerox command. I keep the function definitions at the top of the file and to go to a function I Zerox that window and then go to there with the right button. I also Zerox windows to do small tasks, like fixing a typo, for example. To reduce typing I use mouse chords (and Snarf in the tag, when more convenient), some Edit commands and a bit too much |awk. I think a guide of using Acme effectively would be different for every user, just give it some time, and you will create your own habits. hth, -- - yiyus || JGL .
Re: [9fans] Guide to using Acme effectively?
On Wed, Jul 1, 2009 at 2:11 PM, Ethan Grammatikidis wrote: > On Wed, 1 Jul 2009 15:00:01 -0500 > blstu...@bellsouth.net wrote: > >> > perhaps i should have taken piano, but i find the >> >> That's an interesting observation. As it turns out I >> do play, and it's certainly possible that it colors my >> taste in UIs. >> >> > contortions kbd-based editors such as vi or emacs >> > require to be quite irritating indeed. fumbling for >> >> I don't disagree with you there. > > Me either, I like vi better than emacs simply because it > requires fingertwisting much more rarely. > Not when Esc is placed wy up in the upper left... Of course, in Linux you can rebind the keyboard however you want, and X.org even has a nifty 'Option "ctrl:swapcaps"' thing to stick in xorg.conf for us Emacs users. If only Emacs wasn't tainted with the dirty dirty smell of RMS... I guess there's always Xemacs, which has had a long time to shower off the Stallman. Umm, Plan 9 relevance: I don't have to fingertwist in Plan 9! Actually I can't remember using Esc anywhere, and of course the F[1-12] keys are unused, and a proper terminal boots with the Control key to the left of the 'a', so I've got no complaints. John -- "I've tried programming Ruby on Rails, following TechCrunch in my RSS reader, and drinking absinthe. It doesn't work. I'm going back to C, Hunter S. Thompson, and cheap whiskey." -- Ted Dziuba
Re: [9fans] Guide to using Acme effectively?
On Wed, 1 Jul 2009 13:58:19 -0700 David Leimbach wrote: > On Wed, Jul 1, 2009 at 12:49 PM, Russ Cox wrote: > > > Arguing about mouse vs keyboard misses the point. > > I'm very happy with acme's use of the mouse, but > > acme's power comes from the rest of its design. > > > > Russ > > > > > Even in Emacs, I use the mouse because pointing the insertion point or > cursor or whatever to where I need to type next is *much* faster than many > repetitions of a keypress a lot of the time. Me too, I require vi with X or Xterm mouse support. :) The mouse is not faster than vi's beginning/end of paragraph operations though, nor being able to set or goto "marks" with just 2 keypresses. Then there's "find matching bracket" which can be invaluable depending on language, goto beginning/end of sentence which is great when you've just typed something really stupid in your human-language narrative. There's the vi way of facilitating deletion or changing text in a region defined by any cursor motion, that can be hugely faster than select+delete with the mouse. I'm not saying vi is brilliant. Apart from the features listed above it has many which require more effort to recall than they're worth. It's idea of requiring the cursor to be on a character is obstructive, as are some of the features designed around that. -- Ethan Grammatikidis Those who are slower at parsing information must necessarily be faster at problem-solving.
Re: [9fans] Guide to using Acme effectively?
esc is quite useful in sam. On Wed, Jul 1, 2009 at 6:18 PM, John Floren wrote: > On Wed, Jul 1, 2009 at 2:11 PM, Ethan Grammatikidis > wrote: >> On Wed, 1 Jul 2009 15:00:01 -0500 >> blstu...@bellsouth.net wrote: >> >>> > perhaps i should have taken piano, but i find the >>> >>> That's an interesting observation. As it turns out I >>> do play, and it's certainly possible that it colors my >>> taste in UIs. >>> >>> > contortions kbd-based editors such as vi or emacs >>> > require to be quite irritating indeed. fumbling for >>> >>> I don't disagree with you there. >> >> Me either, I like vi better than emacs simply because it >> requires fingertwisting much more rarely. >> > > Not when Esc is placed wy up in the upper left... Of course, in > Linux you can rebind the keyboard however you want, and X.org even has > a nifty 'Option "ctrl:swapcaps"' thing to stick in xorg.conf for us > Emacs users. > > If only Emacs wasn't tainted with the dirty dirty smell of RMS... I > guess there's always Xemacs, which has had a long time to shower off > the Stallman. > > Umm, Plan 9 relevance: I don't have to fingertwist in Plan 9! Actually > I can't remember using Esc anywhere, and of course the F[1-12] keys > are unused, and a proper terminal boots with the Control key to the > left of the 'a', so I've got no complaints. > > John > -- > "I've tried programming Ruby on Rails, following TechCrunch in my RSS > reader, and drinking absinthe. It doesn't work. I'm going back to C, > Hunter S. Thompson, and cheap whiskey." -- Ted Dziuba > >
Re: [9fans] Guide to using Acme effectively?
On Wed, Jul 1, 2009 at 5:18 PM, John Floren wrote: > Not when Esc is placed wy up in the upper left... Of course, in > Linux you can rebind the keyboard however you want, and X.org even has > a nifty 'Option "ctrl:swapcaps"' thing to stick in xorg.conf for us > Emacs users. Some of this is a keyboard issue: I use a "Happy Hacking Keyboard Lite 2" for my Unix machine (really, a glorified terminal disguised as a Macintosh) and I'm quite happy with it. Escape and control in the right places, a small form factor, etc. On my plan9 terminal, I use the "real" HHKB; it gets the job done, but is no longer generally available.
Re: [9fans] Guide to using Acme effectively?
> Umm, Plan 9 relevance: I don't have to fingertwist in Plan 9! Actually > I can't remember using Esc anywhere, esc selects typing since last non-typing repositing of the tick or deletes selected text in acme. esc toggles hold mode in a 9term window. - erik
Re: [9fans] Guide to using Acme effectively?
>I'm just not sure time is the right thing to measure. it wasn't just time, but included other aspects such as accuracy. ``but i want to be slow AND, overall, inaccurate!''
Re: [9fans] Guide to using Acme effectively?
On Wed, Jul 1, 2009 at 2:41 PM, erik quanstrom wrote: >> Umm, Plan 9 relevance: I don't have to fingertwist in Plan 9! Actually >> I can't remember using Esc anywhere, > > esc selects typing since last non-typing > repositing of the tick or deletes selected > text in acme. esc toggles hold mode in > a 9term window. > > - erik > > *That's* where I'd been using it, I thought for some reason I was oversimplifying when I said I hadn't used Esc. Didn't know about the first trick, but I do use hold mode... usually after I have typed a few lines and want to edit them. John -- "I've tried programming Ruby on Rails, following TechCrunch in my RSS reader, and drinking absinthe. It doesn't work. I'm going back to C, Hunter S. Thompson, and cheap whiskey." -- Ted Dziuba
Re: [9fans] Guide to using Acme effectively?
On Wed, 1 Jul 2009 14:18:24 -0700 John Floren wrote: > On Wed, Jul 1, 2009 at 2:11 PM, Ethan Grammatikidis > wrote: > > On Wed, 1 Jul 2009 15:00:01 -0500 > > blstu...@bellsouth.net wrote: > > > >> > perhaps i should have taken piano, but i find the > >> > >> That's an interesting observation. As it turns out I > >> do play, and it's certainly possible that it colors my > >> taste in UIs. > >> > >> > contortions kbd-based editors such as vi or emacs > >> > require to be quite irritating indeed. fumbling for > >> > >> I don't disagree with you there. > > > > Me either, I like vi better than emacs simply because it > > requires fingertwisting much more rarely. > > > > Not when Esc is placed wy up in the upper left... Of course, in > Linux you can rebind the keyboard however you want, and X.org even has > a nifty 'Option "ctrl:swapcaps"' thing to stick in xorg.conf for us > Emacs users. > > If only Emacs wasn't tainted with the dirty dirty smell of RMS... I > guess there's always Xemacs, which has had a long time to shower off > the Stallman. There are a lot of dirty smells in the software world these days. :/ At least RMS hasn't grown fat on BSD code & tried to pass it off as his own copyright patent work. > > Umm, Plan 9 relevance: I don't have to fingertwist in Plan 9! Actually > I can't remember using Esc anywhere, and of course the F[1-12] keys > are unused, and a proper terminal boots with the Control key to the > left of the 'a', so I've got no complaints. I find mouse chording quite 'twisting'. :/ > > John > -- > "I've tried programming Ruby on Rails, following TechCrunch in my RSS > reader, and drinking absinthe. It doesn't work. I'm going back to C, > Hunter S. Thompson, and cheap whiskey." -- Ted Dziuba > -- Ethan Grammatikidis Those who are slower at parsing information must necessarily be faster at problem-solving.
Re: [9fans] Guide to using Acme effectively?
2009/7/1 Aaron W. Hsu : > I'm missing > small things, like how to select and move all the text in one window to > another in a fast manner if the amount of text in the window is relatively small, then just selecting all the text by dragging from start to end and chord cut/paste is usually fastest. when there's lots of text, it can be better to select all the text by typing ":," in the tag and right-clicking it; then middle click "Snarf" to copy it to the snarf buffer. there's a gotcha about using Snarf, which is that there's actually a concealed "currently selected window" in acme, and it's not always easy to know which it is... i haven't found a straightforward way of explaining yet either. (i think it's possibly the biggest UI flaw in acme. some visual indication could rectify the problem, i think) selecting text (with the left mouse button) changes the currently selected window (which isn't always the body; it can be the tag) so if you select the ":," text before clicking Snarf, you'll end up snarfing the ":," text itself, not the selection in the body of the window! you can get around this by left-clicking in another window; then a Snarf in the original window's tag will work as desired. > how to reduce > redundancy of typing and movement. i use ESC a lot to select some text i've just typed. it doesn't work in all circumstances, but for quick Edit and :/... tag commands that contain spaces, it's very quick and useful. it's worth knowing the right-click null-selection expansion rules, as they can save an explicit selection, which is always slower. the main thing that makes the mouse so useful and versatile in acme is the chorded cut and paste. it makes the mouse into a genuinely useful manipulation tool in its own right - cut and paste comprises a significant proportion of all development activity, in my experience. only problem is if you ever use Safari and accidentally do a chorded-cut, it crashes it instantly! cheers, rog.
Re: [9fans] Guide to using Acme effectively?
On Wed, 1 Jul 2009 23:08:33 +0100 Ethan Grammatikidis wrote: > > Umm, Plan 9 relevance: I don't have to fingertwist in Plan 9! > > Actually I can't remember using Esc anywhere, and of course the > > F[1-12] keys are unused, and a proper terminal boots with the > > Control key to the left of the 'a', so I've got no complaints. > > I find mouse chording quite 'twisting'. :/ I have a problem with the Cut mouse chord, as I usually use my forefinger for the middle mouse button. But Paste feels completely natural. Perhaps mouse buttons 2 & 3 for Cut would be less "twisting"? cls signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: [9fans] Guide to using Acme effectively?
> it wasn't just time, but included other aspects such as accuracy. > ``but i want to be slow AND, overall, inaccurate!'' we have folks like that around here. they work for the county. - erik
Re: [9fans] Guide to using Acme effectively?
> first trick, but I do use hold mode... usually after I have typed a > few lines and want to edit them. Hold mode is a godsend
Re: [9fans] Guide to using Acme effectively?
On Wed, Jul 1, 2009 at 4:00 PM, wrote: >> perhaps i should have taken piano, but i find the > > That's an interesting observation. As it turns out I > do play, and it's certainly possible that it colors my > taste in UIs. The weirdest thing about piano for me (typist first) is pressing more than one key at once very often. That really bemused me. > >> contortions kbd-based editors such as vi or emacs >> require to be quite irritating indeed. fumbling for > > I don't disagree with you there. vi isn't so bad because it has a huge command language. I was always fond of it, but now I'm appreciating sam's more spartan, elegant command set more. > >> the esc key takes ones left hand out of position > > I'm less sensitive to esc, probably because I used teco > heavily in college. Of course, the fact that esc is in > the wrong place on current keyboards doesn't help > any. Indeed. I remap caps to be escape, someplace where it should be. > >> i've enjoyed using ibm's trackpoint, but i've got >> two thumbs and acme needs three buttons. >> clearly there's room for improvement in input >> devices. > > Agreed on both points. I like Apple's new mice, but you can't chord with them. I got it before I got into plan 9. Now I want to chuck it.
Re: [9fans] Guide to using Acme effectively?
> On Wed, 1 Jul 2009 23:08:33 +0100 > Ethan Grammatikidis wrote: > >> > Umm, Plan 9 relevance: I don't have to fingertwist in Plan 9! >> > Actually I can't remember using Esc anywhere, and of course the >> > F[1-12] keys are unused, and a proper terminal boots with the >> > Control key to the left of the 'a', so I've got no complaints. >> >> I find mouse chording quite 'twisting'. :/ > > I have a problem with the Cut mouse chord, as I usually use my > forefinger for the middle mouse button. But Paste feels completely > natural. Perhaps mouse buttons 2 & 3 for Cut would be less "twisting"? > > cls Ditch the scrollwheel mouse and buy one of these: http://img16.imageshack.us/img16/3076/ltmm3u.jpg Should be able to find them used for a few bucks--I just picked one up at Weird Stuff for $3. The three-button Logitech mice are stellar for chording, because it's meant for you to have index finger on 1, middle on 2, and ring finger on 3, and it accomodates them comfortably. Also, you don't have the scrollwheel buckling and rolling around as you try to mid-click. I have about 4 of the Logitechs and use them whenever possible. John
Re: [9fans] Scrolling for plan9port sam
Here is a less drunk and better working version of the patch.
Scrolling seems to be working perfectly. I hope gmail doesn't eat this
patch.
=
Add scrollwheel support to sam
diff -r 5f1b36ecd9db src/cmd/samterm/main.c
--- a/src/cmd/samterm/main.cTue Jun 09 09:26:13 2009 -0700
+++ b/src/cmd/samterm/main.cWed Jul 01 20:01:37 2009 -0400
@@ -142,6 +142,10 @@
scroll(which, 3);
else
menu3hit();
+ } else if((mousep->buttons&8)) {
+ scroll(nwhich, 1);
+ } else if((mousep->buttons&16)) {
+ scroll(nwhich, 3);
}
mouseunblock();
}
diff -r 5f1b36ecd9db src/cmd/samterm/scroll.c
--- a/src/cmd/samterm/scroll.c Tue Jun 09 09:26:13 2009 -0700
+++ b/src/cmd/samterm/scroll.c Wed Jul 01 20:01:37 2009 -0400
@@ -100,7 +100,7 @@
void
scroll(Flayer *l, int but)
{
- int in = 0, oin;
+ int in = 0, oin, scw = 0;
long tot = scrtotal(l);
Rectangle scr, r, s, rt;
int x, y, my, oy, h;
@@ -116,18 +116,21 @@
do{
oin = in;
in = abs(x-mousep->xy.x)<=FLSCROLLWID/2;
+ scw = ((mousep->buttons&8) | (mousep->buttons&16));
if(oin && !in)
scrunmark(l, r);
- if(in){
+ if(in || scw){
scrmark(l, r);
oy = y;
my = mousep->xy.y;
- if(my < s.min.y)
- my = s.min.y;
- if(my >= s.max.y)
- my = s.max.y;
- if(!eqpt(mousep->xy, Pt(x, my)))
- moveto(mousectl, Pt(x, my));
+ if(!scw) {
+ if(my < s.min.y)
+ my = s.min.y;
+ if(my >= s.max.y)
+ my = s.max.y;
+ if(!eqpt(mousep->xy, Pt(x, my)))
+ moveto(mousectl, Pt(x, my));
+ }
if(but == 1){
p0 = l->origin-frcharofpt(&l->f, Pt(s.max.x,
my));
rt = scrpos(l->scroll, p0, p0+l->f.nchars, tot);
@@ -148,7 +151,7 @@
}
}
}while(button(but));
- if(in){
+ if(in || scw){
h = s.max.y-s.min.y;
scrunmark(l, r);
p0 = 0;
Re: [9fans] when to use vac -q -d old.vac instead of simply vac -d old.vac
On Mon, Jun 29, 2009 at 08:56:06AM -0700, Russ Cox wrote: > Whether you use -q should have no effect on the memory usage. > There may be a memory leak somewhere involving -q, but at > first glance I don't see one. Feel free to investigate. You're right; I glitched. The memory consumption is due to -d, not -q, of course. Sorry for the noise. --nwf; pgpQgbSj6aq8T.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [9fans] Guide to using Acme effectively?
On Wed, Jul 01, 2009 at 12:49:21PM -0700, Russ Cox wrote: Arguing about mouse vs keyboard misses the point. I'm very happy with acme's use of the mouse, but acme's power comes from the rest of its design. That was exactly my point. -- Kris Maglione One does well to put on gloves when reading the New Testament. The proximity of so much uncleanliness almost forces one to do this. --Friedrich Nietzsche
Re: [9fans] Guide to using Acme effectively?
> I have a weird love-hate relationship with keybindings in Emacs. That > is, I wish they were slightly more Unix-ized instead of whatever > arbitrary junk they decided on back in the ITS days. Ctrl-U should > delete from your cursor to the start of the line, and Ctrl-H should do > a backspace, not open Help! I have been so annoyed by how various programs mess up the traditional Unix text editing keyboard shortcuts that I have started to document how to bring them back: http://unix-kb.cat-v.org I specially hate the trend to map ^W to closing the current window, I'm happily editing some text, make a typo or change my mind about the last word, press ^W, and pooff, all my work is gone. *arggg*. Anyway, hope people finds it useful, and please send me any extra info on how to implement/configure/restore the standard Unix behavior in any other environments and apps. I also would be interested in hearing more details on the exact origins of ^H ^W and ^U. Now back to your usual 9fans schedule, enjoy your keyboard vs. mouse flame uriel P.S.: I even recently wrote a Google Chrome extension to implement the Unix text editing keyboard shortcuts in web pages, it works fairly well so far: http://repo.cat-v.org/burning_chrome/hosaka/ next task is implementing acme-like mouse chording ;) > The ^H problem is especially annoying on > my Slackware box, where I apparently can't hit the Backspace key in > console-mode Emacs or else I'll open the help window. Still, emacs > makes for a decent dev environment (it's where I write most of my Unix > code) and if I ever got motivated enough, it's nice that it has a > fully-featured Lisp environment for extending stuff. > > > John > -- > "I've tried programming Ruby on Rails, following TechCrunch in my RSS > reader, and drinking absinthe. It doesn't work. I'm going back to C, > Hunter S. Thompson, and cheap whiskey." -- Ted Dziuba > >
Re: [9fans] Guide to using Acme effectively?
[Revised to correct filename in cat command, sorry] On a Mac: mkdir -p $HOME/Library/KeyBindings cat >$HOME/Library/KeyBindings/DefaultKeyBinding.dict <
Re: [9fans] Guide to using Acme effectively?
> Anyway, hope people finds it useful, and please send me any extra info > on how to implement/configure/restore the standard Unix behavior in > any other environments and apps. On a Mac: mkdir -p $HOME/Library/KeyBindings cat >$HOME/Library/KeyBindings < P.S.: I even recently wrote a Google Chrome extension to implement the > Unix text editing keyboard shortcuts in web pages, it works fairly > well so far: http://repo.cat-v.org/burning_chrome/hosaka/ next task is > implementing acme-like mouse chording ;) Neat. If you could make the tab key actually generate a tab character, that would be fantastic. Russ
Re: [9fans] Guide to using Acme effectively?
On Thu, Jul 2, 2009 at 5:26 AM, Russ Cox wrote:
>> Anyway, hope people finds it useful, and please send me any extra info
>> on how to implement/configure/restore the standard Unix behavior in
>> any other environments and apps.
>
> On a Mac:
>
> mkdir -p $HOME/Library/KeyBindings
> cat >$HOME/Library/KeyBindings < {
> "^u" = "deleteToBeginningOfLine:";
> "^w" = "deleteWordBackward:";
> }
> EOF
>
> will make ^U and ^W work across all applications.
Awesome! I added it to http://unix-kb.cat-v.org/OSX
Thanks!
>> P.S.: I even recently wrote a Google Chrome extension to implement the
>> Unix text editing keyboard shortcuts in web pages, it works fairly
>> well so far: http://repo.cat-v.org/burning_chrome/hosaka/ next task is
>> implementing acme-like mouse chording ;)
>
> Neat. If you could make the tab key actually generate
> a tab character, that would be fantastic.
Ah, that is a good one, I think it should be possible, I will try to
get it for the next version (need to update for the new extension
packaging format anyway).
I do override the extremely annoying mapping of backspace to the back
button when a text field is not focused, which is also extremely
frustrating when you hit it by mistake and your current page (often
with all text) is lost.
Oh, and note that unfortunately due to current limitations in the
Chrome extensions API, this changes only apply to text fields in the
page, not to the url bar :(
uriel
>
> Russ
>
>
Re: [9fans] Guide to using Acme effectively?
On Wed, 2009-07-01 at 14:13 -0700, John Floren wrote: > and Ctrl-H should do > a backspace, (global-set-key "\C-h" 'delete-backward-char) (global-set-key "\M-?" 'help-command) Emacs may be an atomic hammer, but it's sure as hell a customizable atomic hammer. I rarely use emacs these days, but occasionally it's the correct blunt instrument for the task at hand, and that's solely because you can completely transmogrify its functionality using elisp. --lyndon
Re: [9fans] Guide to using Acme effectively?
On Thu, 2 Jul 2009 05:04:14 +0200 Uriel wrote: > > I have a weird love-hate relationship with keybindings in Emacs. That > > is, I wish they were slightly more Unix-ized instead of whatever > > arbitrary junk they decided on back in the ITS days. Ctrl-U should > > delete from your cursor to the start of the line, and Ctrl-H should do > > a backspace, not open Help! > > I have been so annoyed by how various programs mess up the traditional > Unix text editing keyboard shortcuts that I have started to document > how to bring them back: > > http://unix-kb.cat-v.org > > I specially hate the trend to map ^W to closing the current window, > I'm happily editing some text, make a typo or change my mind about the > last word, press ^W, and pooff, all my work is gone. > *arggg*. Trend? It's *the* way forward for the shiny sexy pretty Freedesktop.org era!!! I was almost sure it came from Windows, but a: I was on my nephew's XP box the other day & found it didn't work anymore if it ever did, and b: last I tried OS X Command-W closes windows there, which kinda corresponds to ctrl-W except for the little detail of not messing up emacs & foo. (See why I can't quite stop liking OS X? In these little things it's saner than anything built on Linux in the last 5-10 years.) > > Anyway, hope people finds it useful, and please send me any extra info > on how to implement/configure/restore the standard Unix behavior in > any other environments and apps. > > I also would be interested in hearing more details on the exact > origins of ^H ^W and ^U. ^H goes back to ASCII if not before, it's the ASCII control code for backspace. I briefly used a text editor that emulated WordStar. ^W was the way to kill a word on that. I suspect more bindings go back to WordStar, not sure. ^U I have no idea about. > > Now back to your usual 9fans schedule, enjoy your keyboard vs. mouse flame > > uriel > > P.S.: I even recently wrote a Google Chrome extension to implement the > Unix text editing keyboard shortcuts in web pages, it works fairly > well so far: http://repo.cat-v.org/burning_chrome/hosaka/ next task is > implementing acme-like mouse chording ;) > > > The ^H problem is especially annoying on > > my Slackware box, where I apparently can't hit the Backspace key in > > console-mode Emacs or else I'll open the help window. Still, emacs > > makes for a decent dev environment (it's where I write most of my Unix > > code) and if I ever got motivated enough, it's nice that it has a > > fully-featured Lisp environment for extending stuff. > > > > > > John > > -- > > "I've tried programming Ruby on Rails, following TechCrunch in my RSS > > reader, and drinking absinthe. It doesn't work. I'm going back to C, > > Hunter S. Thompson, and cheap whiskey." -- Ted Dziuba > > > > > -- Ethan Grammatikidis Those who are slower at parsing information must necessarily be faster at problem-solving.
Re: [9fans] Guide to using Acme effectively?
I believe ^H ^W ^U date back at least to TENEX. -rob
Re: [9fans] Guide to using Acme effectively?
On Wed, Jul 1, 2009 at 10:39 PM, Rob Pike wrote: > I believe ^H ^W ^U date back at least to TENEX. > > -rob > > I just checked, ^H and ^W were the same in ITS's :EMACS John -- "I've tried programming Ruby on Rails, following TechCrunch in my RSS reader, and drinking absinthe. It doesn't work. I'm going back to C, Hunter S. Thompson, and cheap whiskey." -- Ted Dziuba
