Hi Everyone,
Here's a summary from IRC #pylons on Friday, December 26, in
regards to the reorganization of the Pylons Project (PP).
A partial log from when I joined the conversation in #pylons is
attached. Sorry, I don't have the start of the conversation available.
------------------------
Decisions
------------------------
* Use IRC—not an invite-only, closed, proprietary system—to
maintain the spirit of FOSS.
* Individual projects, primarily Pyramid, would be promoted,
while the PP organization would not be emphasized.
* Must have a generalized and consistent scheme for all of the
PP projects (either pyramid.pylonsproject.org or pylonsproject.org/pyramid)
* We will have one project/landing page for each project under PP.org.
* For Pyramid we can extract content from trypyramid/usepyramid
pages for its landing page.
* Any mention of "pylons project" on project websites is, AT
MOST, in the footer on all the project pages, like in http://trypyramid.com
* All project websites will look like they came from the same organization.
* Only documentation should use Sphinx in their build process.
All other sites should use something more flexible, and be easy
to edit and deploy.
------------------------
Further Discussion
------------------------
* Which IRC channel should we use going forward? #pylons? Other?
* How do we log the discussion? botbot.me? Anyone volunteer to
install a logging bot?
* Which pattern is better?
* project-name.pylonsproject.org
- overused
- harder to maintain
* pylonsproject.org/project-name
+ easier to set up HTTPS
* Concerns:
* Will RTD barf on one scheme?
* Does anything change for docs?
* What to do with notaliens?
Respectfully submitted,
--steve
p.s. -- The repo is here:
https://github.com/Pylons/trypyramid
However, I think waiting for direction as a result of the
reorganization discussion would be prudent.
On 12/27/14 at 3:06 AM, [email protected] (pyramidX) pronounced:
I like the idea behind http://trypyramid.com, which looks nice
and has a Pylons Project logo at the bottom and clearly says
"Pyramid is a project of the Pylons Project". I get a clear
idea of the difference between Pyramid and Pylons.
The confusion between all the different 'brands' that seem to
come up when Pyramid is mentioned was actually one of the
reasons it took me this long to try Pyramid. Pyramid comes up
once in a while on Reddit and people have really good things to
say, and everytime I would read the comments or follow links
I'd get confused between words like Pyramid, Plone, Pylons,
Zope, Repoze that would pop up. Embarrassing as it is to admit,
that's why I never gave myself a chance to try the framework
that's now my favorite. Compare it to Flask's website where in
a few seconds you know exactly what it is and what next steps
to take. And it looks modern and gives the feeling that it's
active and recent (first impressions and all), then there's a
separate, clean documentation index page http://flask.pocoo.org/docs/0.10/.
Is trypramid.com source on Github? I personally would
contribute in making it really clear and accessible for
newcomers, since I'm one myself.
On Saturday, December 27, 2014 2:58:29 AM UTC+1, Randall Leeds wrote:
I'll echo this sentiment. If we want to discuss it further, we
should start a separate thread for it, because I don't want to
derail the conversation about project organization and branding.
I'm the sort, though, that would follow this conversation and
chime in here on the mailing list but would probably not
participate if it moved to Slack, unless I can do so via IRC
without signing up.
On Fri, Dec 26, 2014, 10:44 Michael Merickel
<[email protected] <javascript:>> wrote:
Sorry I'll say more than "it bothers me". It's an invite-only system
that seems counter to the principals of contributing to an open source
project. Even with its irc support enabled.
On Fri, Dec 26, 2014 at 12:40 PM, Michael Merickel
<[email protected] <javascript:>> wrote:
> I'll go ahead and be that guy who says he doesn't like seeing his open
> source community move away from irc. Sure slack may work with irc but
> is there actually a problem with just using irc?? This is maybe the
> 2nd or 3rd pyramid discussion I'm seeing offloaded to slack and it
> bothers me.
>
> Back to the original discussion, why the sudden push for subdomains?
> We could easily just re-org things under pylonsproject.org and make it
> significantly easier to secure with https in the future.
>
> On Fri, Dec 26, 2014 at 11:40 AM, Bert JW Regeer
<[email protected] <javascript:>> wrote:
>> Speaking of Slack, what’s the info and how could I join?
>>
>> Bert
>>
>>> On Dec 26, 2014, at 15:55, Paul Everitt
<[email protected] <javascript:>> wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Dec 26, 2014, at 9:50 AM, Blaise Laflamme
<[email protected] <javascript:>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> You're right about this issue and I think time has
come to do something.
>>>>
>>>> Me and Paul started some efforts on this and never
finished it but we were on a good track I think. What I
suggested him lately was to streamline and narrow the
original scope and start work on unifying what we have.
>>>>
>>>> For sure I need to finish the brand stuff I already
started and spread it across what we already have online but
we also need to rethink how the information is structured
and how we relate everything.
>>>>
>>>> I propose to move this discussion over slack :)
>>>
>>> Sounds fun. Let’s create a #pylons there..oh wait, we
don’t want to perpetuate the word “Pylons”…oh wait,
we want to reinforce it as an umbrella. Core dump. :)
>>>
>>> I think a Slack channel would be good.
>>>
>>> —Paul
>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Friday, December 26, 2014 1:56:07 AM UTC-5, Sontek wrote:
>>>> There is a lot of confusion around the "Pylons"
organization and I think in general our
http://www.pylonsproject.org/ website doesn't help alleviate
any of that confusion. For example you can't even go to
http://www.pylonsproject.org/projects and get a list of
Pylons projects, this just redirects to Pyramid's about page.
>>>>
>>>> I feel we should decide which are "official" pylons
projects and make it extremely obvious which ones fall under
this umbrella. Off the top of my head the following are
ones probably worth listing under this umbrella:
>>>>
>>>> https://github.com/Pylons/colander
>>>> https://github.com/Pylons/deform
>>>> https://github.com/Pylons/substanced
>>>> https://github.com/Pylons/venusian
>>>> https://github.com/Pylons/waitress
>>>> https://github.com/Pylons/webtest
>>>> https://github.com/Pylons/webob
>>>>
>>>> Now they all already live under the /Pylons/
organization on github but there are plenty of less
"complete" projects underneath that organization that makes
it hard to track down which are ready for prime time.
>>>>
>>>> The other big issue is a lot of these live under their
domain, under pythonpaste.org, or don't have a website
outside of readthedocs at all.
>>>>
>>>> I propose that we create subdomains for each of them
and make sure to be consistent on including a footer that
mentions that they are pylons projects. This would be
similar to how the Apache organization manages their projects:
>>>>
>>>> http://kafka.apache.org/
>>>> https://spark.apache.org/
>>>> http://cassandra.apache.org/
>>>>
>>>> and how pocoo does it:
>>>>
>>>> http://flask.pocoo.org/
>>>> http://click.pocoo.org/
>>>> http://werkzeug.pocoo.org/
>>>>
>>>> It would probably also make sense to try to maintain a
more consistent brand across each projects website as well.
Allowing each project to have some personality of their own
will be important by keeping a standard color scheme and
layout would help people recognize a pylons project immediately.
>>>>
>>>> What do you wonderful humans think?
>>>>
>>>> - sontek
>>>>
>>>> --
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emails from it, send an email to
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>>>
>>>
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>>
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------------------------
Steve Piercy, Soquel, CA
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The topic for #pylons is: Too quiet here? Try #pyramid! | Code of Conduct:
http://docs.pylonsproject.org/community/conduct.html | Pastebin:
http://paste.ofcode.org | Latest version: Pyramid/Pylons 1.0.1 (1:59:56 PM)
Topic for #pylons set by [email protected] at 10:08:28 on
03/25/12 (1:59:56 PM)
blaflamme: and he won't have the log 
repaul: hah, since IRC doesn't have scrolling, i get to make the Slack joke
*twice* in five minutes 
blaflamme: right
stevepiercy: repeating convo from #pyramid:
stevepiercy: 1:58
for SEO, the answer is yes. i saw this in RTD last night:
https://docs.readthedocs.org/en/latest/faq.html#can-i-make-search-engines-only-see-one-version-of-my-docs
but we already have it:
<link rel="canonical" href="http://docs.pylonsproject.org/en/latest/"; />
so there are other things like robots.txt
repaul: we are discussing the high-level point of promoting pyramid and
minimizing (but not eliminating) "pylons project"
blaflamme: stevepiercy: yeah but you missed our start
stevepiercy: and managing stuff through google webmaster tools
repaul: : raydeo and blaflamme are +1 on that
repaul: sontek and stevepiercy: you ok with that high-level point?
stevepiercy: sorry, i don't have the log
blaflamme: so you miss slack
repaul: right, that's why i cut-and-pasted the lines above
stevepiercy: i read the slack
stevepiercy: er, at least the #reorg slack
blaflamme: yeah but we started again here to be public, but with no log it's
even worst than private 
stevepiercy: was there another slack/channel?
stevepiercy: haha
stevepiercy: well, there you go
repaul: edict: only i get to joke about slack 
raydeo: yeah well I have the form filled out but I need to be OP 
repaul: anyway, stevepiercy are you ok with that high-level point?
stevepiercy: uh… well...
stevepiercy: what would be the organization name?
repaul: pylons project
stevepiercy: ok, so keep that
stevepiercy: i kinda need to see an implementation
stevepiercy: so do you mean something like this as one example:
stevepiercy: http://trypyramid.com/
repaul: i offered to lead a little high-level discussion to get raydeo's vote
before he leaves
stevepiercy: project at the top, content in the middle, pylons project in the
bottom?
repaul: so i was starting at the tip-top
blaflamme: we're not talking about layout
repaul: on one hand, most people looking for pyramid could care less about
"pylons" or "pylons project"
repaul: at best it is an anti-goal, at worst, a cesspool of confusion
stevepiercy: right
repaul: i want to make sure we know what we agree on before getting into
particulars
repaul: ok, then on to the next point…we felt that only Pyramid has a real need
to fix this identity problem
stevepiercy: ok, so when promoting pyramid, and minimizing PP, where do the
other subprojects fit in?
repaul: the other pylons project projects are small enough that clarity doesn't
matter
repaul: +1 on that point as well?
raydeo: sort of... does this include things like webob?
repaul: yes
blaflamme: stevepiercy: lets say they'll be listed under PP and linked to their
docs
repaul: stevepiercy: agree that it's really only pyramid that needs "fixing"?
stevepiercy: ok, i am +1 on high-level point, with caveat of needing to resolve
other subprojects
blaflamme: which ones?
blaflamme: atm?
raydeo: I guess I don't see where this is going, but I agree that pyramid is
the project with the identity problem
stevepiercy: all of them: https://github.com/Pylons/
repaul: raydeo: i'm getting things tee'd up for a proposal
repaul: i propose that:
stevepiercy: pyramid has an identity problem because pylonsproject.org has an
identity problem
repaul: - we come up with a general scheme for all of the PP projects (either
pyramid.pylonsproject.org or pylonsproject.org/pyramid)
repaul: - and for Pyramid, we do like getfirefox.com…have a minimal
marketing-oriented entry point for outsiders, at e.g. trypyramid.com
raydeo: does any of this have to do with the docs?
stevepiercy: +1 to generalization and consistency!
repaul: raydeo: within the limits of sphinx challenges, sure
stevepiercy: +1 to marketing to target audiences with one-pagers
repaul: for this discussion, we can go with "ideally, we'd do XYX" but we might
back off due to some gotcha
repaul: raydeo: how do you feel about those two bullet points above?
atomekk left the room (quit: Remote host closed the connection). (2:12:03 PM)
raydeo: it all sounds good to me so far... I prefer the single domain for https
reasons and because I think subdomains are overused and harder to maintain
raydeo: trypyramid.com is nice
repaul: ok, let's leave it on the table about subdomains
stevepiercy: i had not considered raydeo's point about subdomains
blaflamme: for docs, subdomains will probably performs better than everything
under docs
repaul: let's talk about the PP family of pages (whether pyramid.pp.org or
pp.org/pyramid)
stevepiercy: i like the idea of reducing maintenance support
blaflamme: and probably better with a specific domain for each
repaul: instead, let's talk about intent
repaul: when you go to pp.org/pyramid and pp.org/deform…as a viewer, to what
degree should you feel they are related?
stevepiercy: - they are part of the same organization
blaflamme: each path should look almost the same for consistency, not
subdomains tho
repaul: *puts a 10 min moratorium on the subdomain discussion*
blaflamme: I mean x/pyramid vs pyramid.x
stevepiercy: i can't think of any more points to establish relationship
blaflamme: x/pyramid and x/deform should be similar
repaul: stevepiercy: do you think the "viewer" cares a little, or a lot, about
the "same orgranization" point?
stevepiercy: repaul: when it is disorganized, "a lot". when it is well
organized, "a little"
repaul: hah
stevepiercy: 
repaul: well said
raydeo: does the org matter *at all* except for some link to it in the footer?
I guess that's where I stand.
repaul: raydeo: i think that's a good way to frame it
blaflamme: it matters for IA and UI
raydeo: we could argue that a similar look n' feel is good, but probably not
colors or content
repaul: right…as an example, chris wanted to have like a subnav to jump between
projects
repaul: and i disagreed with him, i don't think audience cares
raydeo: perhaps, but I tend to also think no one cares
stevepiercy: i wouldn't care
repaul: blaflamme?
stevepiercy: i mean, if i want to see what else the org does, i would go to the
org's main site
blaflamme: I think under main domain they should be similar and provide basic
info
raydeo: we could probably do better about linking to pyramid-specific addons
but that's also a separate issue
blaflamme: look at pocoo.org
repaul: as an example, imagine we have some mythical system it all runs on, you
make a news announcement about deform, it shows up in "News" on pyramid
blaflamme: this is a good example, all projects are the same with links to
proper info
stevepiercy: i agree with blaflamme that UI matters. having the same "shape" or
"layout" is important across projects to establish relationship. that's an
implementation detail
raydeo: I think pocoo's biggest win in their design is that it's so easy to
find the mailing list/issue tracker for each project
blaflamme: but when you go to flask.pocoo.org you get the project identity
repaul: it's weird, if you start at pocoo.org
repaul: and go to All Projects -> Flask
repaul: you wind up at a different url:
http://www.pocoo.org/projects/flask/#flask
raydeo: I think that's great because that's all pocoo-org metadata that they
are displaying
repaul: whereas flask.pocoo.org isn't reachable from the mothership, and
doesn't link to the mothership
repaul: http://flask.pocoo.org doesn't have the word "pocoo" anywhere
blaflamme: flask.pocoo.org is like trypyramid.com
blaflamme: I also like the metadata approach under the master domain
blaflamme: because we don't want nothing fancy for the «organization»
repaul: well, except that pyramid is the only one that we are proposing to have
something other than the master domain
blaflamme: but it should be clear
stevepiercy: blaflamme: repaul is correct though, that the biggest difference
is that trypyramid.com has a reference to the org in its footer
blaflamme: yes so pyramid gets its metadata page and it's own subdomain or
domain
stevepiercy: it misses, however, with its URL
stevepiercy: so point to flask.pocoo.org on that one
raydeo: look at other pocoo projects like
http://www.pocoo.org/projects/attest/#attest
blaflamme: oh yes, but thats ok we link it to the org
repaul: ok, i'll try some more votes
stevepiercy: we need both URL and footer content for each project to refer to
PP.org
repaul: forgetting for a moment steve's trypyramid.com or blaise's
usepyramid.com marketing sites….
repaul: for this vote, we're discussing x/pyramid and x/deform
blaflamme: x/projects/pyramid
blaflamme: I think the metadata approach is the saner
repaul: i propose that any mention of "pylons project" is, AT MOST, in the
footer on all the project pages
blaflamme: +1
raydeo: +1
blaflamme: repaul: for x/projects/xxx
repaul: not there yet 
repaul: stevepiercy: you ok on that proposal?
blaflamme: you mean each projects under pylonsproject.org domain?
repaul: yes
blaflamme: +1
stevepiercy: +1
repaul: ok, good
repaul: this is useful progress, unjams chris's earlier point
repaul: next topic: what is and isn't each of the x/project pages
blaflamme: metadata pages
repaul: so we're going to have full-featured pages for each project
repaul: nope
stevepiercy: repaul: you mean on pp.org?
repaul: not metadata
repaul: yes
repaul: pp/pyramid
repaul: pp/deform
repaul: (or, pyramid.pp.org)
blaflamme: repaul: you really want to maintain a separate page for all pp
subprojects?
stevepiercy: right, leave subdomain vs. URI path aside for now
repaul: blaflamme: i thought the idea was, you wanted branding and IA
consistent across project pages
blaflamme: right
repaul: a "metadata" page implies it has a link to the real page, like
pocoo.org does it
stevepiercy: blaflamme: i think it is necessary to maintain a project page for
every project on pp.org
stevepiercy: i don't *want* to 
blaflamme: yes but it could be like pocoo.org project pages
stevepiercy: but i would say that whoever is the primary maintainer of a given
project has the responsibility to also update the mothership
blaflamme: metadata page like with link to its docs or separate identity
microsite
blaflamme: that won't work
stevepiercy: blaflamme: you mean like this? http://www.pocoo.org/projects/flask/
repaul: "metadata" site seems to imply that there is some other page that is
the official entry point
repaul: blaflamme: i think your example is broken
blaflamme: stevepiercy: yes, the metadata page is like that
repaul: their "metadata" pages all point to real entry point pages
repaul: e.g. http://www.pocoo.org/projects/jinja2/ -> http://jinja.pocoo.org
blaflamme: most of them being the docs
repaul: no, most have real pages
blaflamme: so ours would be docs.pylonsproject.org/project/xxx
stevepiercy: yes
repaul: leave out the /project/
stevepiercy: blaflamme: no
raydeo: my question is: what content that is currently on
http://docs.pylonsproject.org/en/latest/docs/pyramid.html belongs somewhere
else? Or counter: What content is missing from there?
stevepiercy: and docs.
blaflamme: and for pyramid something like trypyramid.com
repaul: raydeo: no mention on that page of PyramidCon
repaul: nor companies using it, etc.
repaul: let's close out the "metadata page" discussion first
atomekk [~atomekk@unaffiliated/atomekk] entered the room. (2:35:49 PM)
stevepiercy: i think we drifted to different topics. repaul what's the current
question at hand?
stevepiercy: repaul: stop reading my mind
repaul: blaflamme: i don't think pocoo is a good example, as most of those have
real entry point pages
raydeo: well I'm trying to figure out what we define as a metadata site or an
entry point or whatever
repaul: right
raydeo: to answer any question on irc I start at
http://docs.pylonsproject.org/en/latest/docs/pyramid.html right now
repaul: raydeo: my point is, there is no such thing as a metadata page
blaflamme: repaul: their entry points are their docs, like us for most projetcs
like deform, pepercorn, ...
stevepiercy: yeah, i have no clue what "metadata page" means
raydeo: to be clear, http://docs.pylonsproject.org/en/latest/docs/pyramid.html
is not docs
sontek: repaul: Do you think we don't need real entry point pages for the
projects?
repaul: blaflamme: this is more than docs: http://jinja.pocoo.org
raydeo: it is pyramid's real landing page, it just happens to be hosted on rtd
sontek: I think at least deform, colander, webtest, webob, venusian, and
pyramid all deserve their own entry points
repaul: sphinx has an entry page that is more than docs, flask does
blaflamme: for sure they are bigger projects than pyramid 
repaul: +1 to sontek even if it is just a single page
repaul: "metadata page" implies that there is some other page that is the
official URL we hand out
repaul: "the deform home page" should be x/deform
stevepiercy: repaul: example of "metadata page"? is this what you mean?
http://www.pocoo.org/projects/flask/
repaul: yes
raydeo: I'm not interested in a metadata page the more I think about it... just
a solid landing page for each project
repaul: *nobody* uses that url for flask
stevepiercy: ok, so a project description page
raydeo: pyramid's landing page would be more complex probably
repaul: raydeo: yes
stevepiercy: i was having an issue with "metadata"
stevepiercy: too meta
raydeo: for example, I think
http://docs.pylonsproject.org/en/latest/docs/pyramid.html is pyramid's landing
page atm
repaul: right
raydeo: and it's good.. minus styling the page has good content
repaul: that's our next discussion/vote
stevepiercy: did we decide on whether or not to have a project description page
for all projects under pp.org?
repaul: to close this out, we will have project pages for each PP project
repaul: either pyramid.pp.org or pp.org/pyramid
stevepiercy: +1 agreed
repaul: these project pages will banish the word "Pylons Project" to the footer
repaul: they will all look like they came from the same organization (even if
color schemes vary slightly)
repaul: they can be one page or multiple
repaul: but, these are the official, paste-it-in-#pyramid URLs for those
projects
repaul: agreed?
stevepiercy: +1 agreed
repaul: sontek and raydeo and blaflamme?
raydeo: seems fine
repaul: silence is consent on the other voters 
blaflamme: my concern is the work of wording and examples to produce to make
good landing page for each project 
raydeo: I think most project landing pages could be as simple as the metadata
pages
repaul: blaflamme: if we can't come up with a description of what the damn
thing is and why people should care, we should kick them off the ship 
repaul: raydeo: correct…if there needs are tiny, they get something tiny
blaflamme: most of them will still look the metadata page but feel empty 
blaflamme: 
raydeo: or... they could just redirect to the docs
raydeo: because currently most of our project docs kind of expect that
raydeo: for example colander's docs tell you where to go for irc support I think
repaul: which means, our theming and IA are sphinx
repaul: i guess it is time to jump to raydeo's point about "what's wrong with
the pyramid URL now"
blaflamme: but we don't want sphinx for the main site
repaul: i'm sorry, but
http://docs.pylonsproject.org/en/latest/docs/pyramid.html sucks
repaul: try to find where it tells you what is Pyramid
blaflamme: it sucks hard
repaul: or, why you should care
raydeo: repaul: content-wise, or lookn'feel, or what?
repaul: content-wise
repaul: it is very insider-y (IMO)
repaul: it is also a laundry list
repaul: we list links, on the freaking home page, to pyramid 1.0 HTML/PDF/epub
stevepiercy: http://docs.pylonsproject.org/en/latest/docs/pyramid.html is a turd
stevepiercy: its URL has "docs" in it twice, but it is not docs
stevepiercy: it uses Sphinx to be built
stevepiercy: it must be doused in gasoline and burned
raydeo: well you can consider pulling some info out of the core pyramid docs
and into that page, but I'd argue most of the content on that page belongs there
blaflamme: we should remove anything not-documentation related from sphinx
stevepiercy: its content should be absorbed by its future project page under
pp.org
blaflamme: docker.com is another example where it keep header+footer and only
the documentation uses sphinx
repaul: raydeo: i personally don't think pyramid_jqm should be on the homepage
for Pyramid
repaul: raydeo: i'm looking for something we can, in the PyCon booth, point
people to
raydeo: repaul: sure, it needs to be reorganized
raydeo: the content itself is good though and needs to be somewhere
raydeo: http://flask.pocoo.org/extensions/, whatever
repaul: yes, it needs to go somewhere
blaflamme: sure
repaul: what blaise and i were doing was, taking all the content, organizing it
by audience, and having an IA for each audience
blaflamme: but not as an entry project page
raydeo: I'm not arguing to keep sphinx for those pages for sure
stevepiercy: also http://docs.pylonsproject.org/en/latest/docs/pyramid.html is
under an separate repo pylonsrtd
https://github.com/Pylons/pylonsrtd/blob/master/docs/pyramid.rst
raydeo: although whatever we replace it with should be easy to edit
repaul: yes, very easy to edit *and* deploy
raydeo: yep
blaflamme: stevepiercy: yeah that was the way to make it work with RTD
stevepiercy: that is so confusing and it was a huge barrier to entry for me to
get involved with contributing docs or understanding the org
repaul: so, if i may, on towards another important vote
raydeo: and obviously the url is redudant and the page doesn't belong at
docs.pylonsproject.org
repaul: i *think* we agree that we need a better landing page for Pyramid,
likely outside sphinx
stevepiercy: i'd say absolutely outside of sphinx
blaflamme: stevepiercy: we had to compose with how RTD works
repaul: the question is, do we need x/pyramid for one audience, and
trypyramid.com/usepyramid.com for a different audience?
raydeo: stevepiercy: it's not sphinx's fault, it's the template's fault to be
fair
blaflamme: I think we need both
stevepiercy: blaflamme: i think that decision was not thought through well
stevepiercy: and why we are having this discussion now
blaflamme: stevepiercy: back in time we had to move fast and make things
working, it was not something we planned upfront
stevepiercy: right
stevepiercy: i agree
repaul: let's drop the sphinx/RTD discussion
raydeo: repaul: I don't see the difference yet
stevepiercy: it served its purpose
repaul: raydeo: it's like box.com versus developer.box.com
repaul: there's an assumption that you have two audiences that you can't jam
into the same experience
raydeo: and what are they?
repaul: it is *possible* that this isn't true…we just had a hunch that it is
true
repaul: the python developer versus a potential customer
repaul: (customer, journalist, decisionmaker, whatever)
blaflamme: it could be like http://www.pocoo.org/projects/flask/#flask and
http://flask.pocoo.org
repaul: blaflamme: i'd argue that the first url there is pointless
raydeo: blaflamme: nah, the difference is between http://flask.pocoo.org/ and
http://flask.pocoo.org/docs/0.10/
repaul: it is a techincal artifact of having a separate system
blaflamme: to me it's the project description under the organization
stevepiercy: repaul: when you say "landing page", what does that mean? what is
its purpose?
stevepiercy: point of clarification for discussion
blaflamme: the other is it's own space
raydeo: it seems pretty clear to me the difference that I just enumerated at
least
repaul: stevepiercy: for developers, a landing page needs one thing, for
evaluators, something else
blaflamme: raydeo: to me not because both URL are under the same subdomain,
they belong to the same space
repaul: we could, of course, jam them together for simplification
raydeo: I think if the docs are accessible from the landing page then they are
very close to the same thing
raydeo: blaflamme: you really have a complex about subdomains don't you? 
blaflamme: raydeo: it could be another domain tho
repaul: edict: moratorium on Slack and subdomains extended for another 10 min
raydeo: ok someone tell me why a page like flask.pocoo.org doesn't work for a
landing page?
raydeo: specifically the content
raydeo: overview, link to docs and community setups, extensions..
repaul: raydeo: it has freaking code 1/10th of a step into it
raydeo: example
stevepiercy: repaul: ok, thanks for clarifying. and would an example of a
landing page's content (ignore URL and other matters) be:
http://trypyramid.com/ where the target audience is "developers who want to try
Pyramid"?
raydeo: that's bad for like... almost none of our target audience but ok
repaul: if i'm selling to a client, and they look up Pyramid, they are going to
have separate expectations
repaul: raydeo: it is indeed possible that we don't care about the "market" for
pyramid
repaul: we only care about python developers
raydeo: repaul: ok, so perhaps there needs to be a "what is it" section? or
"marketing" section or something?
repaul: stevepiercy: yes, you were scratching the same itch that blaise and i
went through for usepyramid.com
raydeo: imo the landing page should be for developers and there may be a
section you can link to that is more PC, but you may want to invert that
raydeo: and I'd be fine either way
repaul: raydeo: it is indeed possible, but when you start really dumbing it
down and featuring the non-technical stuff, technical people get REALLY jaded
raydeo: I'm not convinced of that as long as the technical stuff is easily
accessible
repaul: back in the day, mozilla had getfirefox.com that was distinctly about
promotion
repaul: ok
raydeo: for example, I bookmark the docs page instead... or I go there and know
exactly where the docs page is
raydeo: where the docs link on the page is*
repaul: raydeo: could you live with:
repaul: https://www.djangoproject.com
repaul: where 90% of the space above the fold is aimed at marketing?
raydeo: exactly, that works fine
stevepiercy: raydeo: i think we can have multiple landing pages for each target
audience. it's more of a marketing thing. where they live is another topic of
discussion.
stevepiercy: but back to your point, are you saying that the primary focus of a
Pyramid landing page should be for developers?
repaul: i think he is saying there is one URL we hand out
raydeo: well even the marketing page is sort of for developers
repaul: and that URL tries to appeal to both audiences
raydeo: especially if you're putting a download link there which you shouldn't 
stevepiercy: heh
stevepiercy: double-click installer FTW!
raydeo: well we distribute through pypi, so the download link makes no sense
repaul: the material i had for usepyramid.com would likely fit well into a
djangoproject.com-style approach
blaflamme: run through the web page
stevepiercy: raydeo: but don't we want to attract more users to Pyramid? we
should make it easy to do so with an installer.</troll>
repaul: i propose that we stop here
repaul: i think we have gotten raydeo's vote on what he cares most about
blaflamme: docs entry page?
repaul: we still have some hard discussions left, but that can be another day
stevepiercy: did we get a decision on what is a "landing page"?
repaul: the landing page is the main entry point for insiders and outsiders
repaul: for projects that care about marketing (pyramid) it is the
marketing+dev page
stevepiercy: and there is only one landing page?
stevepiercy: per project?
repaul: that is what is on the table, yes
stevepiercy: one landing page, per project, under pp.org, yes?
repaul: i think the feeling was, we could get what was wanted from the
trypyramid/usepyramid pages, as the project page
repaul: yes
repaul: next discussions would be to try and combine trypyramid/usepyramid into
that project page
repaul: decide about subdomains or not
repaul: decide whether anything changes for docs
repaul: and then, move everything to Slack 
blaflamme: +1 
stevepiercy: no amendments!
raydeo: haha
repaul: since those are hard discussions, let's chicken out and do them another
day
blaflamme: raydeo's christmas gift 
repaul: YES
repaul: when he leaves, we'll assign everything to him
blaflamme: hehe
blaflamme: evil repaul
raydeo: I'll delegate to jayd3e
repaul: ok, final words, all around…raydeo, any closing thoughts?
stevepiercy: has this been logged/captured/stored for future reference?
raydeo: depending on the design I think you can go either way on marketing vs
dev vs onetrue landing page I think
blaflamme: no, we're out slack
repaul: nope
repaul: stevepiercy: we could write a recap and send to mailing list
repaul: raydeo: any other last thoughts?
stevepiercy: yes, recap would be appreciated
raydeo: that's probably it for now 
stevepiercy: i came in late, but i can summarize what i have
repaul: stevepiercy: any closing thoughts?
repaul: stevepiercy: thanks, perhaps send your recap by goodwill first
stevepiercy: nope, i'm good for now. i want to go outside and try out my brand
new Felco 8 pruners on the fruit trees
repaul: hehe
repaul: blaflamme?
blaflamme: sorry I was back on slack
blaflamme: o_O
blaflamme: no I'm fine
blaflamme: sounds good for now
repaul: sontek: any points from you? (i suppose we should, later, matriculate
his notaliens stuff)
raydeo: yeah presumably notaliens would be pylonsproject.org's replacement?
raydeo: maybe I'm completely wrong about that
repaul: dunno
repaul: i think you might be 
repaul: ok, that wraps it up, thanks everybody
stevepiercy: notaliens needs further discussion
stevepiercy: for later
repaul: raydeo: enjoy yourself
stevepiercy: thanks everyone
raydeo: yay later
repaul: stevepiercy: email me if i can help on the recap
blaflamme: thanks guys
stevepiercy: will do after dark tonight, only 2 hours of daylight left
raydeo: daylight? what's that?
raydeo: natural light burns!
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