Isaac, don't worry, I'll be doing that, but I'd like to have a buyer lined up, as otherwise the PC laptop will lie gathering dust.
so it's a belt and braces move on my behalf. Twitter @neilbarnfather Neil Barnfather Talks List Administrator TalkNav is a Nuance, Code Factory and Sendero dealer, for all your accessible phone, PDA and GPS related enquiries visit www.talknav.com -----Original Message----- From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com [mailto:macvisionar...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of ISAAC OBIE Sent: 12 October 2010 09:15 To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: Can keyboard only navigation ever be... Neil, why don't you wait a couple of weeks and try the Macbook pro before selling your laptop? You've intested lots of time setting it up... Give the Macbook pro a week or two first before selling your topnotch notebook....... just a suggestion. Isaac ----- Original Message ----- From: "Neil Barnfather - TalkNav" <for...@talknav.com> To: <macvisionaries@googlegroups.com> Sent: Tuesday, October 12, 2010 3:07 AM Subject: RE: Can keyboard only navigation ever be... > Cara, > > indeed, I'm sitting here quote in hand for new Mac Book Pro, very closely > monitoring the add to basket button... > > just need to justify the getting rid of my current PC laptop... > > anyone know anyone living in the UK who'd want a top spec windows PC... > payment plan considered etc... > > write me off list for...@talknav.com > > regards. > > Twitter @neilbarnfather > > Neil Barnfather > Talks List Administrator > > TalkNav is a Nuance, Code Factory and Sendero dealer, for all your > accessible phone, PDA and GPS related enquiries visit www.talknav.com > > -----Original Message----- > From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com > [mailto:macvisionar...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Cara Quinn > Sent: 12 October 2010 00:54 > To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com > Subject: Re: Can keyboard only navigation ever be... > > Well Neil you'd better become a Mac / VO convert right quick! -or else! > *flicks riding crop* lol! > > Seriously though; no worries on any of this. :) Perhaps we could take this > one issue at a time. > > if you'd like, as there are a lot of great minds here, perhaps we can go > point by point on solutions for things you'd like to do. > > -Yes, you and I chatted a bit about some possibilities, and perhaps others > would be willing to chime in with specifics on actual tasks you'd like to > accomplish and how you might go about it on the Mac. > > this would actually be quite beneficial for all of us, as I don't think > any > one of us individually, (except of course Esther) :) has the absolute and > complete grasp of every single shortcut available to us as Mac users in > our > respective heads. :) > > So a little re-hash of all of the cool ways we can go about specific tasks > could go a long way to giving all of us a bit of a refresher. > > -Just my thoughts. > > Have a terrific day / evening All!. > > Smiles, > > Cara :) > --- > View my Online Portfolio at: > > http://www.onemodelplace.com/CaraQuinn > > Follow me on Twitter! > > https://twitter.com/ModelCara > > On Oct 11, 2010, at 6:49 AM, Neil Barnfather - TalkNav wrote: > > Ricardo, > > F6, that be the resolution, instead of tabbing all the time with Windows > and > JAWS< let's take your iTunes example. > > using iTunes on my PC, as I do, I do the following. > > if I'm in the left tree of items, I start typing the name of say > applications, after A P is typed I'm on that section, so now F6, this > takes > me instantly to the top of the area defining the view, then one more F6 > and > I'm in the list of applications. so that's two keys to get there not > endless > tab, tab, tab, > > again, all this goes to prove is that I need to learn more about Voice > Over > and who knows, with just a little more education I may change my view. > > but to say that with windows its endless tabbing, not so, F6, magic. > > Twitter @neilbarnfather > > Neil Barnfather > Talks List Administrator > > TalkNav is a Nuance, Code Factory and Sendero dealer, for all your > accessible phone, PDA and GPS related enquiries visit www.talknav.com > > > -----Original Message----- > From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com > [mailto:macvisionar...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Ricardo Walker > Sent: 11 October 2010 12:59 > To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com > Subject: Re: Can keyboard only navigation ever be... > > Hi Neil, > > Correct. If your in an application or web page and someone gives you the > physical placement of an item, you can find it on the track pad which > gives > you the layout similar to what a sighted person sees on the screen. Just > like on the iPhone. This leads me into my comment. I don't think moving > your hand from a keyboard to a trackpad to a number pad necessarily makes > you slower. For example, If I'm in iTunes and I want to reach an item > using JFW I might have to tab 4, 5, maybe 6 times. If I know the layout > of > iTunes on a Mac, I can just touch that location on my track pad. If your > in > an environment where you have to work side by side with sighted people > this > can really clear some communication hurdles. I thought just like you when > I > first made the switch. "Why do I have to press 4 keys to accomplish the > same task the only took 1 finger with Jaws?" And it annoyed me. But then > I > realized that the number of keys 1 must press doesn't have a direct > relationship to speed and or productivity. I also didn't like the concept > of interacting with elements. This is before I completely understood it's > advantages. Again, I use iTunes as an example. If you have your IOS > device > hooked up to your windows PC you go to the sources list and arrow down to > your device. Same with the Mac. Then, on Windows, you tab and tab and > tab. > Then when you've reached the button you want like music, you select then > tab > a whole lot more. On the Mac, I could use the iTem chooser to find music > and it takes me right to it. Lets say for some reason I did want to press > VO right arrow instead of using the item chooser. Once I've reached music > and selected it, I can keep going until I reached the scroll areas that > contain the information for the button I've selected. If I don't want to > view them I don't have to. You don't have this choice on windows. Your > forced to pass every element which takes up time when you know what your > looking for. > On Oct 11, 2010, at 3:47 AM, Neil Barnfather - TalkNav wrote: > >> Laura, >> >> good post, appreciated reading it... >> >> can I ask, you and others have mentioned simply targeting an area of the >> screen, such as in your example where you say top right of a page etc. >> >> how is this achieved? using the touch pad presumably but how? are you >> meaning you drag the mouse up there, or that the touch pad in some way >> represents the screen? >> >> thanks. >> >> Twitter @neilbarnfather >> >> Neil Barnfather >> Talks List Administrator >> >> TalkNav is a Nuance, Code Factory and Sendero dealer, for all your >> accessible phone, PDA and GPS related enquiries visit www.talknav.com >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com >> [mailto:macvisionar...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Laura M >> Sent: 11 October 2010 02:50 >> To: MacVisionaries >> Subject: Re: Can keyboard only navigation ever be... >> >> Neil, I get where you're coming from--the first couple weeks I spent >> with the Mac, I had exactly the feelings you describe. I had no >> problem learning the OS, but I couldn't possibly figure any way that >> it would be more efficient than JAWS. I have done a complete 180 in >> the year or so I've had since then. With quicknav, I can do more with >> one finger than I could with JAWS, and I can do so more conveniently. >> I'm not using the number row to jump through headings on a website, >> for example, then coming back to the arrow keys to continue reading. >> I've made a couple changes in keyboard commander, and they've also >> improved things, but those changes are no more extensive than anything >> I did with the JAWS keyboard manager. >> >> There are three things that really make it quicker for me: the >> trackpad, the item chooser, and--pretty surprisingly, given that I >> hated it at the start--the need for interaction. >> >> With the trackpad, if I'm on a page or a program I'm familiar with, I >> can instantly get to what I want by just touching it, as opposed to >> tabbing or arrowing however many times it takes to get there. It does >> mean taking your hand off the keyboard, yes, but the time saver is >> more than worth it, imo. There are many, many times in work now, when >> I'm using a Windows machine with no option but to tab and tab, that >> I'm beyond frustrated not to have it. That's also why the model of >> interaction helps. At the beginning, it seemed like a lot more work to >> have to interact just to get to a button, but if you've got a program >> with a lot of controls, skipping over them by groups, as opposed to >> painstakingly going past each control until you find the one you want, >> is far more efficient. >> >> The item chooser is extremely useful for similar reasons. It's not >> just present on webpages, where it gives you the JAWS functionality of >> narrowing down headers or form controls or whatever; it's in every >> program Voiceover works with. The more complicated the program, the >> more beneficial it is. >> >> I don't think Voiceover is perfect by any means. There's a level of >> customisation possible in JAWS that isn't there yet, but if we're just >> talking navigation, I think a lot of the solutions that seem backward >> at first really do pay off. And I'd also add that I feel much more >> like I'm using the Mac as sighted people do than I ever did with >> windows. With Voiceover, I'm not forced to do everything linearly; a >> friend can say, "You want the icon at the top right of the screen," >> and that's actually useful information now. There's a context to >> things that the Windows screenreaders simply didn't provide me. >> >> I also suspect there are duplicate VO keyboard commands for existing >> OS shortcuts because it was probably far more useful and common to >> lock the VO keys before quicknav came along. It's maybe not ideal now, >> but I can see why it made sense then. I listen out for whatever >> keyboard shortcuts the program menus list, and learn them, instead. >> There are also good resources on the web that list the most common >> keyboard shortcuts, which might help you out. >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "MacVisionaries" group. >> To post to this group, send email to macvisionar...@googlegroups.com. >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >> For more options, visit this group at >> http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "MacVisionaries" group. >> To post to this group, send email to macvisionar...@googlegroups.com. >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >> For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. >> > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "MacVisionaries" group. > To post to this group, send email to macvisionar...@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "MacVisionaries" group. > To post to this group, send email to macvisionar...@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "MacVisionaries" group. > To post to this group, send email to macvisionar...@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "MacVisionaries" group. > To post to this group, send email to macvisionar...@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "MacVisionaries" group. 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