Hi Neil: Now thats the makings of a possible good Apple commercial; once we get you comfortable in the Mac.:) Take care
Carolyn On Oct 13, 2010, at 2:50 AM, Neil Barnfather - TalkNav wrote: > Carolyn, > > for all the good reasons with a PC, the issue still is that I cannot live > with JAWS fouling up all the time, if I was still sighted I'd not switch, > perhaps that's the best way of conveying this. > > thanks. > > Twitter @neilbarnfather > > Neil Barnfather > Talks List Administrator > > TalkNav is a Nuance, Code Factory and Sendero dealer, for all your > accessible phone, PDA and GPS related enquiries visit www.talknav.com > > -----Original Message----- > From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com > [mailto:macvisionar...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Carolyn Haas > Sent: 12 October 2010 19:36 > To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com > Subject: Re: Can keyboard only navigation ever be... > > Hi Neil: > Ok, so I'm pretty confused. You just sighted all the reasons why one can do > so much more with the PC and JAWS. And you made some good and valid points. > Have you fallen in love accidentally with Mac? Or are you just looking to > bang your head against the wall?:) > Maybe I'm missing something here? > > And, btw, I'm not trying to be obnoxious, or troublesome. I just don't get > it.:) > > Carolyn > On Oct 12, 2010, at 2:29 AM, Neil Barnfather - TalkNav wrote: > >> Isaac, >> >> don't worry, I'll be doing that, but I'd like to have a buyer lined up, as >> otherwise the PC laptop will lie gathering dust. >> >> so it's a belt and braces move on my behalf. >> >> Twitter @neilbarnfather >> >> Neil Barnfather >> Talks List Administrator >> >> TalkNav is a Nuance, Code Factory and Sendero dealer, for all your >> accessible phone, PDA and GPS related enquiries visit www.talknav.com >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com >> [mailto:macvisionar...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of ISAAC OBIE >> Sent: 12 October 2010 09:15 >> To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com >> Subject: Re: Can keyboard only navigation ever be... >> >> Neil, why don't you wait a couple of weeks and try the Macbook pro before >> selling your laptop? You've intested lots of time setting it up... Give > the >> Macbook pro a week or two first before selling your topnotch > notebook....... >> just a suggestion. >> Isaac >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Neil Barnfather - TalkNav" <for...@talknav.com> >> To: <macvisionaries@googlegroups.com> >> Sent: Tuesday, October 12, 2010 3:07 AM >> Subject: RE: Can keyboard only navigation ever be... >> >> >>> Cara, >>> >>> indeed, I'm sitting here quote in hand for new Mac Book Pro, very closely >>> monitoring the add to basket button... >>> >>> just need to justify the getting rid of my current PC laptop... >>> >>> anyone know anyone living in the UK who'd want a top spec windows PC... >>> payment plan considered etc... >>> >>> write me off list for...@talknav.com >>> >>> regards. >>> >>> Twitter @neilbarnfather >>> >>> Neil Barnfather >>> Talks List Administrator >>> >>> TalkNav is a Nuance, Code Factory and Sendero dealer, for all your >>> accessible phone, PDA and GPS related enquiries visit www.talknav.com >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com >>> [mailto:macvisionar...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Cara Quinn >>> Sent: 12 October 2010 00:54 >>> To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com >>> Subject: Re: Can keyboard only navigation ever be... >>> >>> Well Neil you'd better become a Mac / VO convert right quick! -or else! >>> *flicks riding crop* lol! >>> >>> Seriously though; no worries on any of this. :) Perhaps we could take > this >>> one issue at a time. >>> >>> if you'd like, as there are a lot of great minds here, perhaps we can go >>> point by point on solutions for things you'd like to do. >>> >>> -Yes, you and I chatted a bit about some possibilities, and perhaps > others >>> would be willing to chime in with specifics on actual tasks you'd like to >>> accomplish and how you might go about it on the Mac. >>> >>> this would actually be quite beneficial for all of us, as I don't think >>> any >>> one of us individually, (except of course Esther) :) has the absolute and >>> complete grasp of every single shortcut available to us as Mac users in >>> our >>> respective heads. :) >>> >>> So a little re-hash of all of the cool ways we can go about specific > tasks >>> could go a long way to giving all of us a bit of a refresher. >>> >>> -Just my thoughts. >>> >>> Have a terrific day / evening All!. >>> >>> Smiles, >>> >>> Cara :) >>> --- >>> View my Online Portfolio at: >>> >>> http://www.onemodelplace.com/CaraQuinn >>> >>> Follow me on Twitter! >>> >>> https://twitter.com/ModelCara >>> >>> On Oct 11, 2010, at 6:49 AM, Neil Barnfather - TalkNav wrote: >>> >>> Ricardo, >>> >>> F6, that be the resolution, instead of tabbing all the time with Windows >>> and >>> JAWS< let's take your iTunes example. >>> >>> using iTunes on my PC, as I do, I do the following. >>> >>> if I'm in the left tree of items, I start typing the name of say >>> applications, after A P is typed I'm on that section, so now F6, this >>> takes >>> me instantly to the top of the area defining the view, then one more F6 >>> and >>> I'm in the list of applications. so that's two keys to get there not >>> endless >>> tab, tab, tab, >>> >>> again, all this goes to prove is that I need to learn more about Voice >>> Over >>> and who knows, with just a little more education I may change my view. >>> >>> but to say that with windows its endless tabbing, not so, F6, magic. >>> >>> Twitter @neilbarnfather >>> >>> Neil Barnfather >>> Talks List Administrator >>> >>> TalkNav is a Nuance, Code Factory and Sendero dealer, for all your >>> accessible phone, PDA and GPS related enquiries visit www.talknav.com >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com >>> [mailto:macvisionar...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Ricardo Walker >>> Sent: 11 October 2010 12:59 >>> To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com >>> Subject: Re: Can keyboard only navigation ever be... >>> >>> Hi Neil, >>> >>> Correct. If your in an application or web page and someone gives you the >>> physical placement of an item, you can find it on the track pad which >>> gives >>> you the layout similar to what a sighted person sees on the screen. Just >>> like on the iPhone. This leads me into my comment. I don't think moving >>> your hand from a keyboard to a trackpad to a number pad necessarily makes >>> you slower. For example, If I'm in iTunes and I want to reach an item >>> using JFW I might have to tab 4, 5, maybe 6 times. If I know the layout >>> of >>> iTunes on a Mac, I can just touch that location on my track pad. If your > >>> in >>> an environment where you have to work side by side with sighted people >>> this >>> can really clear some communication hurdles. I thought just like you > when >> >>> I >>> first made the switch. "Why do I have to press 4 keys to accomplish the >>> same task the only took 1 finger with Jaws?" And it annoyed me. But > then >> >>> I >>> realized that the number of keys 1 must press doesn't have a direct >>> relationship to speed and or productivity. I also didn't like the > concept >>> of interacting with elements. This is before I completely understood > it's >>> advantages. Again, I use iTunes as an example. If you have your IOS >>> device >>> hooked up to your windows PC you go to the sources list and arrow down to >>> your device. Same with the Mac. Then, on Windows, you tab and tab and >>> tab. >>> Then when you've reached the button you want like music, you select then >>> tab >>> a whole lot more. On the Mac, I could use the iTem chooser to find > music >>> and it takes me right to it. Lets say for some reason I did want to > press >>> VO right arrow instead of using the item chooser. Once I've reached > music >>> and selected it, I can keep going until I reached the scroll areas that >>> contain the information for the button I've selected. If I don't want to >>> view them I don't have to. You don't have this choice on windows. Your >>> forced to pass every element which takes up time when you know what your >>> looking for. >>> On Oct 11, 2010, at 3:47 AM, Neil Barnfather - TalkNav wrote: >>> >>>> Laura, >>>> >>>> good post, appreciated reading it... >>>> >>>> can I ask, you and others have mentioned simply targeting an area of the >>>> screen, such as in your example where you say top right of a page etc. >>>> >>>> how is this achieved? using the touch pad presumably but how? are you >>>> meaning you drag the mouse up there, or that the touch pad in some way >>>> represents the screen? >>>> >>>> thanks. >>>> >>>> Twitter @neilbarnfather >>>> >>>> Neil Barnfather >>>> Talks List Administrator >>>> >>>> TalkNav is a Nuance, Code Factory and Sendero dealer, for all your >>>> accessible phone, PDA and GPS related enquiries visit www.talknav.com >>>> >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com >>>> [mailto:macvisionar...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Laura M >>>> Sent: 11 October 2010 02:50 >>>> To: MacVisionaries >>>> Subject: Re: Can keyboard only navigation ever be... >>>> >>>> Neil, I get where you're coming from--the first couple weeks I spent >>>> with the Mac, I had exactly the feelings you describe. I had no >>>> problem learning the OS, but I couldn't possibly figure any way that >>>> it would be more efficient than JAWS. I have done a complete 180 in >>>> the year or so I've had since then. With quicknav, I can do more with >>>> one finger than I could with JAWS, and I can do so more conveniently. >>>> I'm not using the number row to jump through headings on a website, >>>> for example, then coming back to the arrow keys to continue reading. >>>> I've made a couple changes in keyboard commander, and they've also >>>> improved things, but those changes are no more extensive than anything >>>> I did with the JAWS keyboard manager. >>>> >>>> There are three things that really make it quicker for me: the >>>> trackpad, the item chooser, and--pretty surprisingly, given that I >>>> hated it at the start--the need for interaction. >>>> >>>> With the trackpad, if I'm on a page or a program I'm familiar with, I >>>> can instantly get to what I want by just touching it, as opposed to >>>> tabbing or arrowing however many times it takes to get there. It does >>>> mean taking your hand off the keyboard, yes, but the time saver is >>>> more than worth it, imo. There are many, many times in work now, when >>>> I'm using a Windows machine with no option but to tab and tab, that >>>> I'm beyond frustrated not to have it. That's also why the model of >>>> interaction helps. At the beginning, it seemed like a lot more work to >>>> have to interact just to get to a button, but if you've got a program >>>> with a lot of controls, skipping over them by groups, as opposed to >>>> painstakingly going past each control until you find the one you want, >>>> is far more efficient. >>>> >>>> The item chooser is extremely useful for similar reasons. It's not >>>> just present on webpages, where it gives you the JAWS functionality of >>>> narrowing down headers or form controls or whatever; it's in every >>>> program Voiceover works with. The more complicated the program, the >>>> more beneficial it is. >>>> >>>> I don't think Voiceover is perfect by any means. There's a level of >>>> customisation possible in JAWS that isn't there yet, but if we're just >>>> talking navigation, I think a lot of the solutions that seem backward >>>> at first really do pay off. And I'd also add that I feel much more >>>> like I'm using the Mac as sighted people do than I ever did with >>>> windows. With Voiceover, I'm not forced to do everything linearly; a >>>> friend can say, "You want the icon at the top right of the screen," >>>> and that's actually useful information now. There's a context to >>>> things that the Windows screenreaders simply didn't provide me. >>>> >>>> I also suspect there are duplicate VO keyboard commands for existing >>>> OS shortcuts because it was probably far more useful and common to >>>> lock the VO keys before quicknav came along. It's maybe not ideal now, >>>> but I can see why it made sense then. I listen out for whatever >>>> keyboard shortcuts the program menus list, and learn them, instead. >>>> There are also good resources on the web that list the most common >>>> keyboard shortcuts, which might help you out. >>>> >>>> -- >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > Groups >>>> "MacVisionaries" group. >>>> To post to this group, send email to macvisionar...@googlegroups.com. >>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>>> macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >>>> For more options, visit this group at >>>> http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. >>>> >>>> -- >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > Groups >>> "MacVisionaries" group. >>>> To post to this group, send email to macvisionar...@googlegroups.com. >>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>> macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >>>> For more options, visit this group at >>> http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. >>>> >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >>> "MacVisionaries" group. >>> To post to this group, send email to macvisionar...@googlegroups.com. >>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>> macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >>> For more options, visit this group at >>> http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >>> "MacVisionaries" group. >>> To post to this group, send email to macvisionar...@googlegroups.com. >>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>> macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >>> For more options, visit this group at >>> http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. >>> >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >>> "MacVisionaries" group. >>> To post to this group, send email to macvisionar...@googlegroups.com. >>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>> macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >>> For more options, visit this group at >>> http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > >>> "MacVisionaries" group. >>> To post to this group, send email to macvisionar...@googlegroups.com. >>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>> macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >>> For more options, visit this group at >>> http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. >>> >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "MacVisionaries" group. >> To post to this group, send email to macvisionar...@googlegroups.com. >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >> For more options, visit this group at >> http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "MacVisionaries" group. >> To post to this group, send email to macvisionar...@googlegroups.com. >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >> For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. >> > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "MacVisionaries" group. > To post to this group, send email to macvisionar...@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "MacVisionaries" group. > To post to this group, send email to macvisionar...@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "MacVisionaries" group. 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