Dear Jürgen, spacing/padding of French quotes is a wide field...
On 2016-12-11, Jürgen Spitzmüller wrote: > Am Samstag, den 10.12.2016, 19:44 +0000 schrieb Guenter Milde: >> More interestingly, it also put spaces between single guillemots! > Yes, sure. This is what polyglossia does as well (with literal call- > them-whatever-you-like). Characters. Unfortunately, with LuaTeX it does this not only for French, but also English or German text --- I consider this a Polyglossia bug. English «is ‹fine›». French «‹is› fine» spaced as it should. English again «is ‹not fine›». Still spaces inside guillemets. becomes: English «is ‹fine›». French « ‹ is › fine » spaced as it should. English again « is ‹ not fine › ». Still spaces inside guillemets. The padding of guillemets seems to be "sticky". > Also babel-french has support for that via > \frquote and InnerGuillSingle=true, but that's quite hidden. Yes, it does not work for the LICR macros or literal characters, so no help for the quote inset. > It seems that single guillemets are rather unusual in French > typesetting. > \csquotes has four different styles for french quotes, none of them > using single guillemets for nested quotations. ... > These styles seem to be in accordance to how the Wikipedia has it: > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quotation_mark#French The French wikipedia cites 3 styles for secondary level quotes: with literal Unicode characters and narrow no-break spaces (0x202F):Bug: The narrow no-break space is present in the lyx source file but not visible in the GUI! Première méthode : « L’ouvreuse m’a dit : “Donnez-moi votre ticket.” Je le lui ai donné. » Seconde méthode : « L’ouvreuse m’a dit : « Donnez-moi votre ticket. » Je le lui ai donné. » Troisième méthode : « L’ouvreuse m’a dit : ‹ Donnez-moi votre ticket. › Je le lui ai donné. » https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guillemet#Double_ou_triple_niveau_de_citation The single guillemets are also listed as secondary quotes in French in # http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-English_usage_of_quotation_marks # http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anf%C3%BChrungszeichen#Andere_Sprachen I suppose, there is no clear preference (similar to the situation in German with »«, «», or „“ for the primary quotes) As « „“ » and « “” » are common in other languages, too 'el': u'«»“”', 'es': u'«»“”', 'it': u'«»“”', 'pt': u'«»“”', 'ru': u'«»„“', 'ro': u'„”«»' or u'«»„”', 'pl': u'„”«»' or u'«»“”', it would be nice to have them as quoting style options. >> Jean-Mark, do you think this is the right way to do it? >> However, with XeTeX and Polyglossia spacing is more than wrong: >> Spaces are missing with double guillemots and the opening single one >> but >> present before a closing single guillemot. > It's correct for me (recent TL 2016) with the literal things. That's > why I propose to use that for polyglossia (only). Why not using literal Unicode characters in the TeX source for all non-TeX-font documents: • no difference with Babel • no change (same bug) with Polyglossia + LuaTeX • better (correct padding) with Polyglossia + XeTeX >> I suggest to provide different styles: >> >> "french" with hard-coded spaces inside guillemots (in all >> languages) >> "swiss" without spaces (in all languages). > I think we should leave the spacing to the language packages (and/or > packages/classes). Fine. ... However, we need "hardcoded" spaces for text export (copy to external source), HTML and possibly as workaround for the single guillemet with Babel. >> Babel (and Polyglossia with LuaTeX) will add the spaces if the text >> language is french by default (the user can supress this with preamble >> code). However, they will not add more space, if there is already >> space, so we don't need to care for "double space". > I am not sure about that. There is currently a bug with the > polyglossia/csquotes combination since both add space that adds up in > the result: > https://github.com/reutenauer/polyglossia/issues/141 With Babel-French, a narrow no-break space and the Babel-inserted space around double guillemet add up (!). With Polyglossia, spaces are not added. I added test documents to #10451. Thanks, Günter
