Re: [LincolnTalk] A reminder…and a shout out to the hosts

Fri, 03 Jan 2025 17:18:45 -0800

This will be my last word on this discussion, since people on LT seem to have tired of it. I have immense sympathy for the Jewish people. They have been persecuted for hundreds of years and they have never had a safe place in the world. When Hitler tried to exterminate them, the U.S. and Canada share the badge of shame for refusing to take in the fleeing Jews. I have many Jewish friends and I find them fun and intelligent. I admire many tenets of the Jewish religion, to the extent I am familiar with them. They have added greatly to our culture.

The idea of a Jewish state had merit: let us finally give them a country of their own. However, the land provided by the Great Powers was not theirs to give and was given without the consent of the current occupants. So, alas, though the Jews now have their own country, it is still not safe. The story is more complex than that, since the surrounding countries wish to keep stirring up trouble for many reasons, many of which have little to do with the Jews.  I wish someone knew the answer. I still consider reaching agreement on who owns the land the only way to reach a peace, and even that may not be enough given Iran’s part in the situation.

I only wish that the endless killing, that only sews the seeds of more hatred and brings no peace or safety, could be ended. I wish that both the Israelis and the Palestinians could live in safety and prosperity. 

I also understand that, although many Jewish people have found a haven in the U. S., the evil snake of antisemitism still lurks in the dark corners of this country. We should all work tirelessly to stamp that out and celebrate the presence of our Jewish friends. And we should offer to support them and protect them should the need arise.

Ruth Ann
(She, her, hers)

On Jan 3, 2025, at 2:49 PM, Fred Hopengarten <hopengar...@post.harvard.edu> wrote:



Family Deaths Under Hitler

 

Brother of Sora Ivry Maltz

Faga Maltz Pasternak, her husband (Motachuh Pasternak), and seven children

Sora Angelski

Esther Maltz

Abraham Maltz

Beryl Weisglass

Pincus Weisglass

Rebecca Weisglass, and son

Nathan Hopengarten's son

Beinha Hopengarten

Chaia Hopengarten Belchatofsky

Israel Belchatofsky's (Sol Bell's) wife and son

Faga Hopengarten

Karl Hopfengarten, and son

                Salomon Israel Hopengarten, prisoner number: 72547, born 1921-12-12, in Warschau

Benjamin Hopfengarten

Esther Hopfengarten, husband, and three children

 

Total:    31

 

Those 31 people are the reasons that Maltz (my grandmother’s line) and Hopengarten family members alive today in Israel and the United States so strongly advocate for the safety of Jews. To us, it is personal. I don’t take kindly to the idea that “From the River to the Sea, Palestine should be free (of Jews).” Jews have learned the hard way that good will and general consensus on international standards of behavior is not enough. Never again.

 

“Although there is no consensus over the extent to which anti-Zionism is anti-Semitic, anti-Zionism can sometimes be indistinguishable from anti-Semitism in its _expression_, at times employing anti-Semitic tropes or having a marginalizing effect on Jews.” Zionism | Definition, History, Movement, & Ideology | Britannica 

 

Fred Hopengarten

6 Willarch Road

 

 

From: Lincoln [mailto:lincoln-boun...@lincolntalk.org] On Behalf Of Jonathan Sheffi
Sent: Friday, January 03, 2025 1:48 PM
To: Lincoln Talk
Subject: Re: [LincolnTalk] A reminder…and a shout out to the hosts

 

I appreciate your email, and I wish that we had consensus on equal rights for the Jewish people, but no, we are not there yet as a town.

 

The flyer for Mr Low's speaker last month called Zionism (the equal right of Jews as an ethnoreligious minority to self-determine in their ancestral homeland) "a modern _expression_ of neocolonialism and fascism." In my original synopses of the movies GRALTA is presenting, I made clear how all these movies specifically oppose equal the Jewish right of self-determination, the Jewish right to seek political power, the Jewish right to self-defense, and so on.

 

That's why I've been persistent in opening up this topic, because I am seeking consensus on Jewish equal rights, and we do not have it.

ᐧ

 

On Fri, Jan 3, 2025 at 1:20 PM RAandBOB <raand...@earthlink.net> wrote:

There needs to be no discussion about whether Jews deserve the same rights as other human beings. There’s no debate there: they do. 

 

The state of Israel however is not a person, it’s a country. There are currently certain rules of engagement that people would like to see apply to all countries. Even the United States does not abide by all those rules, but people would like to see Israel (and the United States) abide by the rules that were developed by a consortium of the world’s nations.

 

Ruth Ann

(She, her, hers)



On Jan 3, 2025, at 12:30 PM, Jonathan Sheffi <jshe...@gmail.com> wrote:



Hang on a minute. Let me make sure I've got this straight.

 

A free flowing discussion of geopolitical matters happening 7,000 miles away belongs on Lincoln Talk because anything goes, but when it comes to discussing whether Jews (in Lincoln and elsewhere) deserve equal rights to other human beings, we suddenly need to take it offline?

ᐧ

 

On Fri, Jan 3, 2025 at 10:00 AM Sara Mattes <samat...@gmail.com> wrote:

LT has been around for a while now.

It has survived and thrived and served our community well, in all its functions- sales, free stuff, announcements or events( political and otherwise) here and around us, appeals for causes, and yes, sometimes contentious debate.

The moderators have juggled competing demands  and pressures.

They have blocked certain posts and posters for a “ time out.”

When your opinion is blocked, you are not happy- trust me, I know from personal experience.

 

It is easy for a subscriber ( you are here voluntarily) to opt out of certain posts and/ or posters.

It is the “delete” button.

Scroll through and decide what to open, to read.

You are not forced to read or participate.

 

The Moderators, in my observation, have erred on the side of free flowing speech, and let readers take responsibility for opting in or out.

 

I for one, am glad to have this community forum, in all its iterations, and would hate to see it change.

 

 

Sent from my iPad



On Jan 3, 2025, at 9:28 AM, Jonathan Sheffi <jshe...@gmail.com> wrote:



I disagree. Political event invites inherently contain political statements (that's how we got into this mess to begin with!). Therefore they need to go to the new political channel along with the discussion around them.

 

On Fri, Jan 3, 2025, 08:33 Paul Shorb <paul.sh...@gmail.com> wrote:

My votes:

Some version of suggestion #1 could be OK; I defer to the judgment of the LT moderators.

 

Suggestion #2 seems unnecessary. LT seems like a reasonable place to simply post notices of upcoming events that are aimed at Lincoln residents, even if they concern topics outside of Lincoln, and I'd rather not have to subscribe to and monitor a separate thing. However, if the LT moderators (or someone else) is willing to go to the trouble of setting up that separate thing and explaining and enforcing what goes in which channel, OK with me.

 

- Paul Shorb

 

On Fri, Jan 3, 2025 at 8:00 AM June L Matthews <matth...@mit.edu> wrote:

I support this proposal.

 

June Matthews

 

From: Lincoln <lincoln-boun...@lincolntalk.org> On Behalf Of Jonathan Sheffi
Sent: Thursday, January 2, 2025 10:34 PM
To: Lincoln Talk <lincoln@lincolntalk.org>
Subject: [LincolnTalk] Moving geopolitics off of Lincoln Talk – permanently

 

When discussions about Israel and the rights of Jewish people started, I was personally quite reluctant to engage. I did not believe that politics belonged on Lincoln Talk, especially political issues that happen outside the borders of the town of Lincoln. I miss the emails about bake sales and animal sightings and used couches. Heck, I even miss the HCA discussions.

 

I would like us to bring this list back to its original purpose: to serve the residents of Lincoln. Not Israel, Gaza, Syria, Iran, Russia, Ukraine, China, or Taiwan. In my personal opinion, not US politics either. I therefore would like to make a specific policy proposal to the owners and moderators of Lincoln Talk.

 

  1. A permanent ban on all discussion of geopolitical issues. This would apply equally to the rest of the world, and perhaps even the parts of the USA outside our 7,000 person town.
  2. This would include invitations to events in Lincoln if they focus on matters outside of the town. Ergo, no invitations to organize for a presidential candidate, no invitations to discuss the Middle East or Ukraine or anywhere else.

 

Implementation of this policy requires two things as far as I can tell:

 

  1. The consent of the moderators to enforce this ban uniformly across all non-Lincoln political matters.
  1. Updates to the Lincoln Talk FAQ and Rules & Policies. May I suggest the following amendments:

 

Is my message an attempt to draw on the resources of my community? In other words, if you live in Lincoln and you’re asking for help from or providing information to your community, then your message is probably on topic even if the focus isn't on Lincoln itself. For example, if you’re inviting people to a national political event, asking your neighbors how they’re handling some aspect of the state tax form, or looking for the best route to Logan Airport, it's probably on topic even if the focus is not Lincoln. 

 

Does my message avoid changing the subject? When you reply to a message and you change the focus substantially, you may be going off topic. For example, if a list member posts a message inviting neighbors to a national political event, and you reply with a message that focuses on national politics instead of neighbors, you may not be staying on topic.

 

I recognize that for some people, there is a genuine desire for virtual and in-person discussions about national and global politics. I suggest that we start a second mailing list from scratch, and everyone who wants to talk about politics opts into it. Call it lincoln-geopolitics perhaps. All event invitations and discussions of non-Lincoln politics go there, with the LT moderators redirecting as necessary.

 

I realize this is a change, and not everyone may be comfortable with it, but I believe that moving our geopolitical event invitations and discussions to a new dedicated forum will help us restore the Lincoln Talk we all love.

 

Jonathan

<~WRD0000.jpg>

ᐧ

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