On Wed, Dec 21, 2016 at 07:56:29PM +0100, Heiko Baums wrote: > Am 21.12.2016 um 14:03 schrieb Rich Freeman: > > I don't agree that you are "forced" > > to use systemd. Maybe you might be forced to use a different browser > > or fork your browser or patch it or stick with an old version and > > backport security fixes if you want to use it without systemd some > > day. > > And there it is again this silly argument and this twisting of words. > Typical for those Poettering fanboys. > > > But, if the entire Firefox developer community quit and decided > > to do something else (a la Thunderbird) you'd be in a similar boat. > > Sometimes you get what you pay for. > > And this again. You know the difference between OpenSource and ClosedSource? > > You pay for ClosedSource. For OpenSource you don't need to pay. But I > have neither time nor energy to explain you the philosophy (before > Poetterix) of OpenSource. But I can tell you this much. OpenSource and > its developers usually have no commercial intentions. It seems to be > different for Poettering and his fanboys. > > > I get that people who want to avoid systemd are frustrated by this, > > but honestly it feels like spitting against the wind at this point. > > And the arrogance and ignorance of Poettering's and his fanboys' again. > > > I > > was frustrated back when everybody stopped taking care of kde-3.5 and > > kde-4 wasn't really ready and was a resource hog on older systems. I > > switched to xfce for a while, because ultimately I can't demand that > > the kde project cater to my whims. > > Just compare apples and oranges. Also typical for Poettering and his > fanboys. > > The situation with KDE has nothing - and I mean nothing - to do with the > situation with systemd. But I have neither time nor energy to explain > that, too. I would talk to a wall anyway. > > > In general though, nobody is required to engage in > > debates/arguments/etc here, or even read your posts. People choose to > > participate in list discussions just as they choose what software they > > want to maintain. > > There they are again: The apples and the oranges. > > Heiko Baums >
I'm getting the feeling that others would be more receptive to your communication if you weren't belittling them with name-calling. I personally feel similarly about systemd and Poettering, but it's more effective to target ideas and behaviors rather than people. Targeting people will -- understandably -- cause them to become defensive, which will only make them dig their heels in and decide you aren't worth conversing with. I don't think that's your intention. Rich has a point that we're dependent on code we don't write. So when a project goes in a direction we don't like, we have three options: go along with it, reject it and use something different, or fork it. Most choose 1 or 2 because 3 is demanding and often requires a team. Teams are hard, wetware is hard. I'm 100% with you on the political front. As long as we have distros that respect that choice -- Gentoo, Devuan, etc. -- we still retain the ability to "dodge" projects like systemd or Firefox. Life may become a bit more difficult due to learning a new package, or finding a new project that "speaks to you", but ultimately libre software developers are volunteers and we can't force them to do anything. This is the Bazaar at work. Ironically, there are parallels to this and the idea of markets. If a vendor isn't providing what you want, do you attack them or simply go to another vendor? In libre software, mindshare and participation are currency. Taking your currency somewhere else is the best way to show that you don't approve of a project's direction. Blog posts, forks, or participation in other (competing) projects shows that you care enough to devote time to it. Most in the community respect someone who "puts their money where their mouth is", so to speak. Taking part and getting involved shows that you care and are willing to help make goals become reality. So, what can you or others do about Firefox? Use another browser. Help them out, even if it's testing or bug reports. That stuff matters. I've already started looking for another browser, myself, since I plan to excise PA from my system again some time. It can definitely be done. At some point, you have to ask yourself, "How much do I care about this?" If you care enough, you will do something about it. It's my hope that my e-mail inspires you to become more active in libre software. TLDR: You catch more flies with honey than vinegar.
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