A microtubule has a coherence time of about 20 times less than a quantum annealer (a type of quantum computer that can tolerate low coherence times) and is off by a factor of more than a million for what is regarded as necessary for scalable error corrected quantum computing. I get it that there are clever people that, for whatever weird reason, feel the need to invent fantastically complex explanations for their mental life being special, and grasp at ways to preserve their perception of their independent agency, but that one is among the weirdest. It seems more like a sign of a mental illness.
https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC4191094/ <https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC4191094/> From: Friam <friam-boun...@redfish.com> on behalf of steve smith <sasm...@swcp.com> Date: Monday, January 27, 2025 at 6:55 PM To: friam@redfish.com <friam@redfish.com> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] "I hope I'm wrong. But that text reads like it was generated by an LLM" On 1/27/25 4:11 PM, Marcus Daniels wrote: > One could suppose that information is stored in frequency domain as a quantum > state. The same type of quantum state could be represented on a digital > computer. Or one could use Fourier Neural Operators to do machine learning in > the frequency domain on a digital memory system. These are just conveniences > for modeling convenience, for performance and/or energy efficiency. Ordinary > digital neural nets (and especially big ones like LLMs) already distribute > information holographically, metaphorically speaking. ORCH-OR ? > > -----Original Message----- > From: Friam <friam-boun...@redfish.com> On Behalf Of Prof David West > Sent: Monday, January 27, 2025 2:52 PM > To: friam@redfish.com > Subject: Re: [FRIAM] "I hope I'm wrong. But that text reads like it was > generated by an LLM" > > using an alternative metaphor as a starting point does not mandate using an > alternative metaphysics. Pribram's holographic metaphor involves matter, as > do all of the other theories of mind of which I am aware. Nevertheless, the > models of "computation" that arise in such theories are quite different, and, > to me, pretty interesting. > > davew > > > > On Mon, Jan 27, 2025, at 1:56 PM, Marcus Daniels wrote: >> It's fine if people want to imagine other metaphysics for what goes on >> with consciousness, but it is a pointless violation of Occam's razor >> until they show that consciousness can do things that matter cannot. >> As LLMs begin to surpass human intelligence, there's really no leg for >> them to stand on, other than to appeal to faith and chauvinism. >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Friam <friam-boun...@redfish.com> On Behalf Of Santafe >> Sent: Monday, January 27, 2025 11:40 AM >> To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group >> <friam@redfish.com> >> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] "I hope I'm wrong. But that text reads like it >> was generated by an LLM" >> >> >>> On Jan 27, 2025, at 10:35, Marcus Daniels <mar...@snoutfarm.com> wrote: >>> >>> Eric writes: >>> >>> "He is arguing against the computation framing of consciousness. Searle’s >>> device is to say that my brain is like my stomach, and that the computation >>> framing doesn’t do its complexity justice." >>> >>> Can say the same thing about quantum mechanics. >> It’s an interesting response, because answering it requires deciding >> what role a law has in our understanding of the world. >> >> It happens (as these accidents do) that I was at a conference maybe 3 >> months ago with at least one philosopher who writes on this, so I know >> it is a field. (Actually, got a dosing from other sources over the >> weekend, so I know more than that….) >> >> Somehow, each thing we create as a formalism is bounded. I don’t want >> to say finite in its instantiations, because those could be infinite >> in various cardinalities. But finite in the premises that generate it >> as a formal system. QM as much as anything else. >> >> So we say that the best guess right now is that there is no type of >> matter (and should be no type of spacetime) that isn’t borne on by, or >> limited by the constraints of, the generating premises of QM. We >> would like laws to have universality of that kind, and if they don’t, >> we look for ways to improve them to others that will get closer. >> >> But if we think “the universe” refers to something about which there >> could be indefinitely much to be known or understood, and somehow a >> much bigger infinity than that of any formalisms that, once we create >> them, are just more “things in the world”, so just parts of that >> universe. It doesn’t seem like we want to say there is a containment >> relation whereby the one finite thing “contains” everything — in the >> sense of “everything there is that makes up an understanding”. >> >> All the ways I know to imagine this, since it refers to things I don’t >> know yet, are metaphors. I can think about “projections” in the sense >> of dimension reduction, and a universe-of-everything that can have >> infinitely many dimensions projected out of it, with the remainder >> being _exactly_ the premises of QM. Others seem to like to think of >> it in some kind of set-containment metaphor, where QM “handles” some >> “subset of phenomena” “in” the universe. (The latter doesn’t appeal >> to me as much.) >> >> Does the “projection” metaphor of how QM constrains all else that we >> will say about matter seem equally apt, for what one or another >> computational model says about what-all goes on in heads (and where >> relevant, bodies)? Seems mismatched. The set-containment metaphor >> seems better for computation-like events in heads. >> >> At the end, though, they are all metaphors, pretty clearly adopted out >> of desperation to have some mental image. If we let go of the mental >> image, then what we seem to be left with is just a list of cases. >> Here is QM; there is geometry; this is some algebra; here’s a formal >> declaration of computability; and here are various hooks and >> interfaces at which they seem to make some kind of contact with one >> another that we also write down explicitly. Maybe that’s all there >> is; or all that we have any justification to speak as if there is. >> Poor FRIAM: so far from DaveW, so close to Nick. >> >> Dunno. >> >> Eric >> >> >> >> .- .-.. .-.. / ..-. --- --- - . .-. ... / .- .-. . / .-- .-. --- -. --. >> / ... --- -- . / .- .-. . / ..- ... . ..-. ..- .-.. >> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >> Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom >> https://bit.ly/virtualfriam <https://bit.ly/virtualfriam> >> to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com >> <http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com> >> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ >> <http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/> >> archives: 5/2017 thru present >> https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ >> <https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/> >> 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/ >> <http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/> >> >> .- .-.. .-.. / ..-. --- --- - . .-. ... / .- .-. . / .-- .-. --- -. --. >> / ... --- -- . / .- .-. . / ..- ... . ..-. ..- .-.. >> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >> Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom >> https://bit.ly/virtualfriam <https://bit.ly/virtualfriam> >> to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com >> <http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com> >> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ >> <http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/> >> archives: 5/2017 thru present >> https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ >> <https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/> >> 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/ >> <http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/> >> >> Attachments: >> * smime.p7s > .- .-.. .-.. / ..-. --- --- - . .-. ... / .- .-. . / .-- .-. --- -. --. / ... > --- -- . / .- .-. . / ..- ... . ..-. ..- .-.. > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom > https://bit.ly/virtualfriam <https://bit.ly/virtualfriam> > to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > <http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com> > FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ > <http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/> > archives: 5/2017 thru present > https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ > <https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/> > 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/ > <http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/> > > .- .-.. .-.. / ..-. --- --- - . .-. ... / .- .-. . / .-- .-. --- -. --. / ... > --- -- . / .- .-. . / ..- ... . ..-. ..- .-.. > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom > https://bit.ly/virtualfriam <https://bit.ly/virtualfriam> > to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > <http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com> > FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ > <http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/> > archives: 5/2017 thru present > https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ > <https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/> > 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/ > <http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/> .- .-.. .-.. / ..-. --- --- - . .-. ... / .- .-. . / .-- .-. --- -. --. / ... --- -- . / .- .-. . / ..- ... . ..-. ..- .-.. 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