I don't presume to guess whether others should or should not engage
various types of technology to enhance their work (or play) product or
maybe more critically, to enhance their own self-training. It is
perhaps never too late to have a good mentor and/or tutor on any skill
or topic?
Keyboards (and soft terminals and printers and all forms of text
processors, etc) have been my friend since about age 14 (typewriter) and
while I *wish* had a more natural (or more trained) hand, my instinct is
that I never had the right wiring for good penmanship, so the
text-enhancing prosthetics have been a boon for me. I was conversely a
natural reader and naturally a good (but not perfect) speller and for
the most part the mechanics of grammar came fairly natural (even if I
didn't learn to diagram sentences as early as my Catholic School peers
apparently did). Spell and even grammar checkers (esp. inline?) remain
80% boon and 20% bane to me... for those whose natural
skills/inclinations are weaker, I am thankful they have that augmentation.
I second Glen's reaction, however ( if I understand it correctly) as
refined or re-reflected by DaveW that when I detect an AI/LLM/ML
generated layer over (or larded in?) to some text it undermines my
confidence in who I am talking (listening) to and reading their
"voice". In the early days of Desktop Publishing, it was very
disturbing to me to see lots of polished (looking) manuscripts which
were at best first or second drafts... but I'm used to that now and can
"read past it" and I *think* many people recognize the folly of using
the polishing tools to polish their turds prematurely? I think the
same evolution will happen with generative AI products, probably much
more quickly?
On a tangent brought up by Glen... without searching back for the
specific attribution/quote, I felt he took a swipe at the idea of using
LLM's as "virtual friends" which in some manner I am very aligned
with. On the other hand, I am also defensive about it. I have referred
to GPT as "my new bar friend" because that mode of conversation has been
the one I most resonate with... I only know "bar friend" because I
have had them in the past, but my lifestyle/circumstance has taken me
away from that milieu for years and I'm not likely to return to it. I
envy Glen's "Salon" (at the local craft brewery?) but don't expect to
re-establish or re-find that kind of experience anytime soon (ever
again) myself. As it is, GPT is quite a bit more adept at chatting
"casually" with me on a much wider range of topics than the average Bar
Friend.
My most recent "watering hole" was Tesuque Village Market, and that run
lasted most of a decade, allowing me to establish rapport with 80% of
the staff (and owners) and 50% of the regular clientele. I knew who
was available for what, and what to steer clear of with whom. The old
guy who could talk blacksmithing with me, but who never quite got over
the idea that the only way to relate to a horse was through
intimidation. The British woman who designs women's shoes and travels
the world from Milan to Brazil to get them constructed and distributed
but still thinks Maggie Thatcher was as big of a hero as many today feel
about Donald Trump (and perhaps for similar reasons)... or the suite of
near-aimless 20/30-somethings trying to find their way in a world with a
whole different set of opportunities and affordances than I experienced
at their phase of life (the young and the reckless). The various
professional couples whose conversational nature changed abruptly if one
or the other was absent, exposing a whole layer of complexity in either
not evident when they were in the homeostatic lock of the relationship
(also interesting but different). And on and on and on.
GPT chats with me about the wide range of design, material properties
and sourcing, and construction strategies constrained by my desire to
use as locally sourced, sustainable, low-tech materials as possible for
the "old people's" addition I've been ideating for years. I have one
or two friends who can riff on some of this from time to time but they
usually get hung up quickly on "but the standard/right/code-approved way
is X!" and while GPT almost always starts out at the entrance to that
dead-end of a rabbit hole, I can pretty easily persuade "him" to let go
of that as a constraint and discuss the alternatives and the
trade-space. GPT is also quite willing and able to chat with me about
a whole wide range of topics which I usually bring up here... and quite
frankly is more openly responsive... GPT, for all it's hyper-utilization
clearly doesn't have a "day job" so is willing and able to indulge me on
just about any topic.
My biggest gripe about GPT (and ilk) is that it is too eager to please
or agree with me. I don't like it when it applies arbitrary limits
(referencing DaveW's desire to get to GhostGPT) but I also am disturbed
when it is too agreeable. I really do want it to help play devils
advocate when I conceive of various methods of insulating the ceiling in
my addition with the mycelium of oyster mushrooms grown in variously
loose straw, woodchips, recycled cardboard, hemp fibers. I do want it
to warn me of the potential issues (and mitigating strategies) around
fireproofing, mold-prevention, ventilation, etc. I have only one
person in my life *interested* enough in discussing the traditional
woodworking techniques for joinery (mortise-tenon, birdsmouth, saddle,
etc) and *he* has no actual experience, just book learning and
fascination. GPT I suppose has only book learning too, but has read a
*lot* more books and listened in on a LOT more conversations than my
friend or I (I have practiced only a little post-beam joinery myself).
GPT chats with me at excruciating (for anyone but me or GPT) length on
philosophical-unto-mathematical-unto-neurscience topics. It has been
willing/able to not only chat with me about any book I've read on a
topic, it can usually do an excellent job of providing parallax across
several authors/thinkers who may or may not have had formal engagement
(e.g. referenced one another's work, etc.). You might recognize some
of my hobby horses in Terrence Deacon, Michael Levin, Karl Friston, Mark
Solms, Jeff Hawkins, et al.
I suppose it is possible this is all just a huge computer-mediated
circle-jerk... maybe that is precisely Glen's (implied) point?
PS... on machine augmentation - I just received my Hypershell
lower-body exoskeleton which was part of a Kickstarter I threw down on
over 2 years ago. I had hoped it might augment my hip-joint
physicality enough to avoid surgical intervention but when it didn't
come in on-schedule (6 mos from funding) I finally gave over and let the
surgeon put me under the knife. My second (right) bone-gristle hinge
was cut away and replaced with a titanium/ceramic hinge in early
December and 6 weeks later I'm still recovering. The hip work healed
as quickly as the first one (August) but the process aggravated an old
(90s) "yoga injury", a rotated Lumbar joint which at the time yielded
significant sciatic discomfort. As the hip incision/bruising/etc
recovered, it became evident that something more was afoot (pun
recognized) as I had virtually no dorsiflexion and it was not recovering
easily... as the other pain receded I began to recognize that the
residual discomfort/dysfunction was similar to what I had 30 years ago
with the lumbar problem. long story shortish, I'm now dragging one
foot around as my brandy-new exoskeleton came in and I really cant
properly test it out. It is too lat to use to avoid hip-replacement but
I still hoped it could provide enough augmentation/support for enhance
my recovery... but the little use (test drive around the living room)
suggests that while it can/might help with hip recovery, the
dorsiflexion/foot-drop side effect undermines that. Images of me with
exoskeleton taking 6 strong strides then stumbling/tumbling only to get
up and do it again... "forced error" if you will. Not recommended by my
surgeon.
Point to be noted... as a neo-retro Luddite, here I am using LLMs as bar
friends and trying to cyborg myself back into mobility so I can hand
build an addition out of raw vigas, fieldstone, cobb, and mushroom
spawn, so I can live independently another 20 years so I can die of
natural causes once all /natural causes/ have been outlawed by the
AMA/FDA/NIH/WHO WTF? I guess I'll get back the thread on morbid ways
to dispose of one's body once I've uploaded my psyche and soul to
Altman's Stargate or Musk's GrokBoxx or just AWS?
PPS Extra nod to DaveW's reference to Stephenson's "Young Ladies
Illustrated Primer"... I only wish I could conjure such for my
granddaughter who really could use such a friend/mentor/protector as she
struggles her way into/through the Tween Years in this modern era.
Maybe some day if he lives long enough she can hang my rusty hypershell
on the wall as a nostalgic artpiece the way I hang my grandfather's
scythe and my parent's wood/leather snowshoes?
Don' let me get off on a (tangential) rant (rave?),
- Steve
On 1/25/25 9:09 AM, Prof David West wrote:
Pieter,
I applaud your use of AI to improve your writing. It is my belief that
the*"proper"* use of AI, along with computers and computing tools in
general, is to _augment_ human abilities ala Vannevar Bush's "how we
may think," Douglas Englebart's institute, Alan Kay's dynabook, (the
fictional Young Ladies Primer of Stephenson's /Diamond Age/), and
Jobs' "bicycle for the mind."
This is in direct contrast, it seems, to the sentiments of most on
this list who think that AI should, and inevitably will, replace
"inferior" human intelligence.
I am curious if you see any question of "voice" in the AI improved
text? For example, I took glen's question as nothing more than an
observation that the "voice" of your post seemed to that of ChatGPT
instead of Pieter—definitely not *"augmented-Pieter,"* as I believe
you intended it to be.
All of us respect Pieter and value his words. If, however, we are
confused by "voice." it raises issues of how much consideration the
writing should receive and how we should respond.
Improving oneself, and one's writing, is a great goal. And we all have
experienced examples of "I wish I had said that," or "I wish I had
expressed that idea as eloquently as she did." If AI tools provide
wordings that you admire, or feel express your ideas more eloquently,
you should adopt them.
Personally, I do not believe that AI can ever provide more 'eloquent'
writing, only more precise or more complete writing. So I, again,
strictly personally, would eschew using such tools as currently
constructed. I would however, if I had the chance, use Richard
Gabriel's tool, /Inkwell/, which, BTW, he emphatically states is not
an AI, to enhance my writing. But Richard is primarily a poet and
writer, despite his education and career in AI and computing, and he
created /Inkwell/ expressly to be a writer's assistant. I have
tremendous respect for Richard's writing and I know he uses Inkwell to
enhance his intrinsic abilities.
davew
On Fri, Jan 24, 2025, at 10:48 PM, Pieter Steenekamp wrote:
I was surprised by the comment "I hope I'm wrong. But that text reads
like it was generated by an LLM" At first, I just thought, 'so
what?' But it got me thinking about how AI changes how we
communicate, which is really important to me.
Here's my main point:
I think it's okay to use others, whether they're people or AI, to
help me communicate better, as long as the ideas are mine and I'm not
copying someone else's work. If using AI to polish my words bothers
someone, we can talk about it.
Here's some background on why I think this way:
a) Learning to communicate is one of the best things you can take
away from school or university. For example if a student is supposed
to use her own words in an assignment, then using AI or asking
someone else to rewrite is wrong.
b) In the workplace, we've always had people like personal assistants
or speech writers. I see using AI in the same way, just a modern tool
to help.
c) Writing assistance used to be expensive because you needed people.
Now, AI can do the job for free, and that doesn't go against what I
believe is right.
d) Your writing should still sound like you. So, I write something
first, then ask AI to make it better but keep it simple and in my
style, like, 'Please make this sound better but keep it easy to
understand.' I now realise I violated this previously and will adapt.
e) Maybe it's good, depending on the situation, to mention when
you've used AI in your writing.
f) Here's a funny story: I used AI to help write a message for an AI
workshop, and someone complimented the writing so much they suggested
I should be a writer instead!
My bottom line:
I plan to add a note at the end of each message in this group saying
I used AI to help with my writing. If my using AI is a problem for
anyone here, feel free to ask me to leave the group or simply remove
me from the group.
Note: I use AI to assist my writing.
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