FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom https://bit.ly/virtualfriam to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ archives: 5/2017 thru present https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/ --- Frank C. Wimberly 140 Calle Ojo Feliz, Santa Fe, NM 87505
505 670-9918 Santa Fe, NM On Sun, Nov 3, 2024, 3:05 PM Nicholas Thompson <thompnicks...@gmail.com> wrote: > Hi john > > Nicholas S. Thompson > Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Ethology > Clark University > nthomp...@clarku.edu > https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson > > > On Sun, Nov 3, 2024 at 2:53 PM John Kennison <jkenni...@clarku.edu> wrote: > >> My name is John Kennison. and In have been receiving intriguing emails >> from Friam. However, I am now bogged down in several other pursuits and I >> do not have the time to keep track of the provocative issues that are >> discussed in Friam. >> >> So, I would now regretfully like to stop getting emails from Friam. How >> dom I dom this? >> >> --John Kennison >> >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> *From:* Friam <friam-boun...@redfish.com> on behalf of glen < >> geprope...@gmail.com> >> *Sent:* Friday, November 1, 2024 11:45 AM >> *To:* friam@redfish.com <friam@redfish.com> >> *Subject:* [EXT] Re: [FRIAM] 6 to 1, 12/2 to the other >> >> I suggest you are the most qualified to answer your own question. You >> might start with the Wolfram Physics pages. E.g. >> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.wolframphysics.org%2Ftechnical-introduction%2Fbasic-form-of-models%2Fthe-representation-of-rules%2Findex.html&data=05%7C02%7Cjkennison%40clarku.edu%7C7ee9881cb11c44c334d408dcfa8c5fcd%7Cb5b2263d68aa453eb972aa1421410f80%7C0%7C0%7C638660730920617296%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C40000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=cNIhIAVP0zBi%2FQ6tDw%2BL387Q3k71YErtG522qtFK3DE%3D&reserved=0 >> <https://www.wolframphysics.org/technical-introduction/basic-form-of-models/the-representation-of-rules/index.html> >> >> On 10/31/24 11:29, Frank Wimberly wrote: >> > Some of you know that in my last position at Carnegie Mellon I was >> working on causal reasoning. We made a distinction between probabilistic >> causation (smoking causes cancer) and actual causation (dropping the bottle >> caused it to break). In the former case we used graphical models, >> specifically parameterized Bayes networks to model the causal relationships >> among a set of variables. In the latter case a simple directed graph >> suffices. In the Wolfram, Gorard, Sorkin work do they make this >> distinction? >> > >> > Frank >> > >> > --- >> > Frank C. Wimberly >> > 140 Calle Ojo Feliz, >> <https://www.google.com/maps/search/140+Calle+Ojo+Feliz,+%0D%0A+Santa+Fe,+NM+87505?entry=gmail&source=g> >> > Santa Fe, NM 87505 >> <https://www.google.com/maps/search/140+Calle+Ojo+Feliz,+%0D%0A+Santa+Fe,+NM+87505?entry=gmail&source=g> >> >> <https://www.google.com/maps/search/140+Calle+Ojo+Feliz,+%0D%0A+Santa+Fe,+NM+87505?entry=gmail&source=g> >> > >> > 505 670-9918 >> > Santa Fe, NM >> > >> > On Thu, Oct 31, 2024, 8:46 AM glen <geprope...@gmail.com < >> mailto:geprope...@gmail.com <geprope...@gmail.com>>> wrote: >> > >> > Since we're talking about Sabine and anastomosis, I found this >> video interesting" >> > >> > This Theory of Everything Could Actually Work: Wolfram’s Hypergraphs >> > >> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fyoutu.be%2F-yzdjziS-bo%3Fsi%3Dw5av9XcTUqjodJ5V&data=05%7C02%7Cjkennison%40clarku.edu%7C7ee9881cb11c44c334d408dcfa8c5fcd%7Cb5b2263d68aa453eb972aa1421410f80%7C0%7C0%7C638660730920640424%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C40000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=a0cpCUINGfmEDGMOGAFFmzOz2DSeVHahwU9rqmri6lI%3D&reserved=0 >> <https://youtu.be/-yzdjziS-bo?si=w5av9XcTUqjodJ5V> < >> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fyoutu.be%2F-yzdjziS-bo%3Fsi%3Dw5av9XcTUqjodJ5V&data=05%7C02%7Cjkennison%40clarku.edu%7C7ee9881cb11c44c334d408dcfa8c5fcd%7Cb5b2263d68aa453eb972aa1421410f80%7C0%7C0%7C638660730920656233%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C40000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=6TAcNhbfFnPfVq3ccx%2FEk1uSXVUcEXO%2FgINngeAXmIk%3D&reserved=0 >> <https://youtu.be/-yzdjziS-bo?si=w5av9XcTUqjodJ5V>> >> > >> > "The idea that the laws of physics are a sort of computation has a >> rather basic problem. It's incompatible with Einstein's theories of general >> relativity and it's not a small mismatch. You see, any type of computation >> works in steps. If it doesn't, then calling it a computation is really just >> a weird way of talking about the laws of physics that we already use. A >> computation has some sort of update rule. [snip] The problem with this idea >> isn't just that Einstein's theories don't use graphs. But that we know you >> can't use graphs to even properly approximate them. The gaps in the graphs >> and the updates in time steps can't be hidden away. They will always be >> observable. And we haven't observed them. [snip] As a consequences, you >> can't approximate general relativity with a graph while respecting all its >> symmetries." >> > >> > She then mentions her paper: A No-go theorem for Poincaré-invariant >> networks < >> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Farxiv.org%2Fabs%2F1504.06070&data=05%7C02%7Cjkennison%40clarku.edu%7C7ee9881cb11c44c334d408dcfa8c5fcd%7Cb5b2263d68aa453eb972aa1421410f80%7C0%7C0%7C638660730920671545%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C40000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=54PKNyAEmTECO5YrmnT%2Bbatv4%2FNSwG0mllOGpt3NOGU%3D&reserved=0 >> < >> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Farxiv.org%2Fabs%2F1504.06070&data=05%7C02%7Cjkennison%40clarku.edu%7C7ee9881cb11c44c334d408dcfa8c5fcd%7Cb5b2263d68aa453eb972aa1421410f80%7C0%7C0%7C638660730920691394%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C40000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=5hwIQAE9WqKt5%2Fpj9Wqsm2paU0jn2JV6JB1J0DFsd94%3D&reserved=0 >> <https://arxiv.org/abs/1504.06070>>>, which I'm incompetent to read. She >> continues: >> > >> > "The new Wolfram approach uses what they call 'hypergraphs'. >> Instead of just using graphs to describe space-time and particles in them, >> they collect these graphs into groups. So the hypergraph is really a >> collection of graphs. The points in this graph describe space-time and can >> also describe matter in the space-time, depending on their properties. But >> the lengths in the hypergraph are not physical. They have no length. They >> just quantify the relations between the points. And since they have no >> length, there's no problem with them becoming shorter or longer for >> different observers. It's actually a clever idea. I had an exchange with >> the guy who works for Wolfram Research who did most of this work, I think, >> Jonathan Gorard, in 2020. I came to the conclusion that this is indeed >> possible. But it's been done before. This is exactly the idea an approach >> called 'Causal Sets' put forward by Rafael Sorkin. As the name suggests, in >> this approach space-time is a set of points, like >> > the points in the hypergraph. And these points have causal >> relations, which you can depict with arrows. So that gives you a graph. And >> this will, indeed, respect Einstein's theory. If you look at what they've >> [Gorard et al] been doing after that announcement in 2020, they've worked >> more on the relation between Wolfram's hypergraph and causal sets. Most of >> this work has been done, it seems, by Jonathan Gorard. He has also looked >> at how to use that to do general relativity and how it prevents >> singularities, which the causal sets people never figured out how to do. >> [snip] However, the causal sets people already showed that it's possible to >> put discretized versions of differential equations on these graphs. So >> maybe it isn't as difficult as it sounds. So when I look at this today, I >> honestly think this research program is going very well. And I think it's >> about time that physicists pay a little more attention to it." >> > >> > [Gorard et al] >> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fscholar.google.com%2Fcitations%3Fhl%3Den%26user%3DItG_Nz0AAAAJ%26view_op%3Dlist_works%26sortby%3Dpubdate&data=05%7C02%7Cjkennison%40clarku.edu%7C7ee9881cb11c44c334d408dcfa8c5fcd%7Cb5b2263d68aa453eb972aa1421410f80%7C0%7C0%7C638660730920706686%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C40000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=0p3tVGgwaKT70IRDOqDDWRKpuJs1HHcqKCrvDkgID%2Bk%3D&reserved=0 >> <https://scholar.google.com/citations?hl=en&user=ItG_Nz0AAAAJ&view_op=list_works&sortby=pubdate> >> < >> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fscholar.google.com%2Fcitations%3Fhl%3Den%26user%3DItG_Nz0AAAAJ%26view_op%3Dlist_works%26sortby%3Dpubdate&data=05%7C02%7Cjkennison%40clarku.edu%7C7ee9881cb11c44c334d408dcfa8c5fcd%7Cb5b2263d68aa453eb972aa1421410f80%7C0%7C0%7C638660730920722019%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C40000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=ldx9xvQnNdtCZv6rUQEX3JRvcoYLjG4ARRHI%2FPRUnuA%3D&reserved=0 >> <https://scholar.google.com/citations?hl=en&user=ItG_Nz0AAAAJ&view_op=list_works&sortby=pubdate> >> > >> > >> > >> > On 10/30/24 17:21, Stephen Guerin wrote: >> > > On Wed, Oct 30, 2024 at 12:32 PM glen <geprope...@gmail.com < >> mailto:geprope...@gmail.com <geprope...@gmail.com>> <mailto: >> geprope...@gmail.com <mailto:geprope...@gmail.com <geprope...@gmail.com>>>> >> wrote: >> > > >> > > The idealists will never stop idealizing and then reifying >> their ideal. To Engineer is Human. But those of us who know (or merely >> confidently believe) reality is made up of a diverse non-wellfounded set of >> ... what? ... urges? ... nano-agents? ... IDK, whatever, will always >> anastomose that built environment ... or at least reclaim it like a hermit >> crab squatting in a tin can. >> > > >> > > >> > > I like the visual and deeper concept, Glen. A kind of wuwei >> attitude. >> > > >> > > sequeing impermanence of political structures to over-reified >> software: >> > > >> > > Today at lunch, John Zingale lamented that the residence time of >> code in the system seems to be decreasing. Perhaps Anastomotic Computing is >> the next big thing. :-) >> > >> >> >> -- >> ꙮ Mɥǝu ǝlǝdɥɐuʇs ɟᴉƃɥʇ' ʇɥǝ ƃɹɐss snɟɟǝɹs˙ ꙮ >> -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. . >> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >> Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom >> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fbit.ly%2Fvirtualfriam&data=05%7C02%7Cjkennison%40clarku.edu%7C7ee9881cb11c44c334d408dcfa8c5fcd%7Cb5b2263d68aa453eb972aa1421410f80%7C0%7C0%7C638660730920737156%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C40000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=K2%2FDv2EmHOydzZQAMFnoUBscI%2BRBWLFO8ctSRlTrTxQ%3D&reserved=0 >> <https://bit.ly/virtualfriam> >> to (un)subscribe >> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fredfish.com%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Ffriam_redfish.com&data=05%7C02%7Cjkennison%40clarku.edu%7C7ee9881cb11c44c334d408dcfa8c5fcd%7Cb5b2263d68aa453eb972aa1421410f80%7C0%7C0%7C638660730920752353%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C40000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=oUKln5xNtAerqfkDj4yq14gIVio3XGmlrBSdueFgnTQ%3D&reserved=0 >> <http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com> >> FRIAM-COMIC >> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Ffriam-comic.blogspot.com%2F&data=05%7C02%7Cjkennison%40clarku.edu%7C7ee9881cb11c44c334d408dcfa8c5fcd%7Cb5b2263d68aa453eb972aa1421410f80%7C0%7C0%7C638660730920767617%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C40000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=XPSC%2Bzs5l7oGC8pYjFQtFb1kmzVp9ytf%2FJgPP1wWm%2F4%3D&reserved=0 >> <http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/> >> archives: 5/2017 thru present >> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fredfish.com%2Fpipermail%2Ffriam_redfish.com%2F&data=05%7C02%7Cjkennison%40clarku.edu%7C7ee9881cb11c44c334d408dcfa8c5fcd%7Cb5b2263d68aa453eb972aa1421410f80%7C0%7C0%7C638660730920782905%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C40000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=%2FhmH%2FHZF5BmDWd72wa7Q5%2BWWAqdHW0Ce8U1gUfnvbnY%3D&reserved=0 >> <https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/> >> 1/2003 thru 6/2021 >> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Ffriam.383.s1.nabble.com%2F&data=05%7C02%7Cjkennison%40clarku.edu%7C7ee9881cb11c44c334d408dcfa8c5fcd%7Cb5b2263d68aa453eb972aa1421410f80%7C0%7C0%7C638660730920798255%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C40000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=IU2obTxzPfqcGCIyPkyQCgZM%2F2hBlpzbWhspkbMLSOM%3D&reserved=0 >> <http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/> >> -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. . >> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >> Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom >> https://bit.ly/virtualfriam >> to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com >> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ >> archives: 5/2017 thru present >> https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ >> 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/ >> > -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. . > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom > https://bit.ly/virtualfriam > to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ > archives: 5/2017 thru present > https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ > 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/ >
-. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. . FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom https://bit.ly/virtualfriam to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ archives: 5/2017 thru present https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/
