If your friend would like more info I’d be glad to chat. We have no kids so that made it easier. Most of my relatives are Trumpies, so I don’t miss the holidays with them :-)
On Wed, Jul 17, 2024 at 8:32 PM steve smith <sasm...@swcp.com> wrote: > > > Steve - I assume your question of "how many 'political refugees' can > > you take in there" is rhetorical. Although the incredibly bureaucratic > > system here makes actually getting a long-term visa a bit of a pain in > > practice, it is quite straightforward if one has the resources (proven > > income from retirement or a moderate sum of money to invest). > > the monthly income requirement is under $1000 and the investment > > necessary (through a bank CD that yields probably about 7%) is around > > $40K. That's the easy part. > yes, rhetorical for the most part... I'm much more likely to take the > bonhoffer or schindler options... > > > > Aside from it being very difficult to live here without at least a > > rudimentary fluency in Spanish, the difficult part for many naive > > "political refugees" is the culture shock of living in a country with > > very different assumptions. > I was prepared to flee America at 18 to avoid the *implications of* the > draft... I wasn't fluent in Spanish, but I could get by... the border > was about 1 mile from my parents house and in those days it was easy to > drive across the border (southerly) without even showing a driver's > license. The MX banks were riding high on US $$ invested (as Pesos) > because their interest rates were higher than the US rates > (significantly?) but that was the few years before the huge (10:1?) > devaluation that happened just after that period. There were surely some > limits on importing cash, but my $3k savings at the time probably wasn't > over those limits but would have gone a long way as pesos, even after > devaluation. I turned 18 (and skipped the desertions since selective > service quit requiring registration months before I turned 18). I felt > fairly comfortable with MX assumptions as experienced on the border... > having many friends with grandparents and a few tias/tios living in MX > and visiting their families from time to time. Maybe harder/different > deeper in MX, but before the type of cartel activity of today... > > Example one: there are no "good samaritan" > > laws to protect drivers. If you are involved in a traffic accident > > that results in injuries, you automatically are taken to "traffic > > jail" until you can appear before a judge to determine if you have > > committed an offense. > I've a young (now 45?) friend who went to Africa to deliver/install used > computer equipment they scavenged/repaired in Portland OR... he came and > went w/o incident but the *next* volunteer, driving the organizations > old van hit someone. He was literally stoned to death on the spot by > the village. Sobered my friend, but he went back anyway, let a local > drive the van. > > These jails are apparently not so bad (not > > really prisons, but more like barracks where you can't leave), but > > still, they are quite an inconvenience. This can even happen if you > > weren't involved in the accident, other than stopping to see if > > someone along the road appears to be injured and waiting for an > > ambulance to arrive. If you look like you have money, the person may > > well lie to extort money from you. So the conventional wisdom here is > > don't stop to help someone, and if you are involved in a traffic > > accident, it is best to flee. > There were stories like this of MX federal (federales)police in my day... > > > > Example two: the police are generally pretty corrupt. Though not > > common in the part of the country where I live, in other provinces > > nearer the coast, there are routine traffic stops to check that your > > papers are in order. They often will tell you to just pull over to the > > side of the road and wait for them to determine what to do with you. > > In reality, they're waiting for you to come to a "gentleman's > > agreement" to expedite your permission to go on your way. That > > agreement usually involves "paying the fine right here" for $20 or > > more. > Yeh, like that... > > Example three: continuing with the police corruption (or incompetence) > > theme, conventional wisdom says that if you're a victim of a crime > > (robbery, assault), contacting the police is useless. The onus is on > > you to go to the police station and file a police report, and it seems > > to require that you name someone as the robber/assaulter. So much > > crime goes unreported. > I remember when you reported the home invasion (on US Thanksgiving day?) > a decade ago... didn't sound fun at all (the intrusion nor the aftermath). > > > > I've painted a pretty bleak picture, but in practice, you just have to > > "learn the ropes". I suspect that many Latin American countries are > > similar. But despite these warts, it is a beautiful land and the > > people are generally extremely friendly (if not always honest). > The two people/couples I know making their way in Panama have a similar > experience, but maybe a little more "backed up" by the US > presence/history/relationship there.... but only a little. > > Having > > lived here now for 16 years, I have come to accept these problems and > > would never move back to the USA for a couple of reasons: first, I can > > live, on my fixed income, a middle class lifestyle, whereas in the USA > > I would be in poverty; and second, even though there are strong > > political differences among people here, people of opposing views can > > discuss those views without getting so bent out of shape, and > > certainly don't reach the level of hatred as the right and left have > > for each other in the USA. The society is "muy tranquilo" (very calm) > > and the unofficial motto seems to be "todo bien" (everything is okay). > > This is really good to hear. My other experiences with US expats tend > to have them a little less grounded in theri choices. Typically slightly > spoiled professional class folks who seek something a notch above > "middle class" retirements... some more righteous than others... some > semi-grounded in the local culture, others surfing on their privilege. > They also report (Oaxaca, Puerto Escondido) area "tranquilo" and "todo > bien" as the general vibe but I've always suspected it had something to > do with "wealthy" Americans/Europeans... One has applied for permanent > resident status, I suspect based on an investment (sold a house here for > easy .5M a few years ago, probably limited retirement income but > probably over $1k/mo)... > > The financial "buy in" you reference sounds lower threshold than MX or > Panama, which I think might be order twice that? I'm personally not > seeking that but my near-homeless friend might be more well served by my > providing a $40k investment than anything I could do to help protect her > here if things went too sideways. She was once (in her 20s) married to a > Spaniard, living in Spain... I suspect her Spanish would come back. I > think she would thrive in a "tranquilo" culture and hasn't driven much > if at all for decades. Her siblings, not so much... so maybe not > > This is one of the best parts of FriAM IMO, the broad multi-cultural > embedding in spite of a somewhat white-male-techno-professional > substrate. Thanks for the update... > > Follow up question... do you have (adult) children, and how does all > this settle with/for them? > > - Steve > > > > > Gary > > > > On Wed, Jul 17, 2024 at 5:26 PM steve smith <sasm...@swcp.com> wrote: > >> As things slide off toward more and more (probability of and depth of) > authoriatarian intolerance I find myself trying to reign my self back in to > the question of what to do with my offense and real concern for the nation > (and world): I do I prepare to be a Schindler or a Bonhoffer? > >> > >> Too many of my (more Lefty) acquaintances are ideating exhaustively > about "leaving the country" while I am trying to guess who more likely to > suffer acutely if Project 2025 and it's promulgators become the standard > than I (elderish professional class white male with a scruffy beard, > farmer's tan and a few callouses who is most comfortable wearing jeans and > workboots, who owns a pickup truck). > >> > >> We have one friend who has been homeless in her life, has significant > emotional disabilities but has had her life on track for over 10 years now, > but only with significant "gub'mnt assistance". Two of her three siblings > are in even worse shape, living much closer to the edge financially and > mentally... she moved from here to be close to them and help as she could 5 > or 6 years ago. She is baldfaced scared that her siblings and likely > herself will end up on the streets (again) in a heartbeat and possibly > driven to worse things in the process. I think *we* could help her enough > that she could keep helping her siblings avoid a complete failure to > thrive... so that is one thing. > >> Another is a friend who has finally obtained permanent resident status > after decades of bouncing between temporary work visas and returning to the > highlands of MX, all the time working as hard as he could, birthing and > raising two children (who are American Citizens by birth, aka "anchor > babies") and now some grandchildren. He doesn't openly worry or grouse, > but I could feel the relief when his permanent residence status (and that > of his wife in a similar time frame) came through. While I think he is on > the "safe" side of immigration rules being turned inside out, I'm sure he > is worried about it as well as whether the intolerant elements of our > community might feel (more) liberated in directing their "performative > cruelty" in his family's direction. Helping him could come in many forms, > not sure what they are quite yet. > >> I'm sure there are others... others I won't think of until I sit with > it for a while? > >> > >> Gary, how many "political refugees" can you take in there in Ecuador? > I doubt my canoe can traverse the coast around the Darien Gap, but it > might be worth a try... (probably trade it on the south-end for something > of value or at least some good intel on how to get to your place?) or > just stay here and channel Schindler and Bonhoffer? > >> > >> - Steve > >> > >> On 7/17/24 3:45 PM, Gary Schiltz wrote: > >> > >> Well, as a theoretical matter, it's hard to say what would happen if > >> Biden were to try to knock off Trump. I can't in my wildest dreams > >> imagine that killing a political opponent would be considered to be an > >> official act of the president. As a practical matter? No chance he > >> would do more than fantasize about it, because I believe he is an > >> honorable man (for a politician) who cares about his legacy. What a > >> legacy that would be. But ignoring all that, if he *did* do it, just > >> remember which side (left or right) has the guns. And boy oh boy do > >> they have guns. It would at a minimum result in an armed, violent > >> insurrection, and I even wonder if the military would support him or > >> the insurrectionists. I certainly consider this type of action to be > >> treasonous. > >> > >> On Wed, Jul 17, 2024 at 4:04 PM Russ Abbott <russ.abb...@gmail.com> > wrote: > >> > >> Don't want to drag this out forever, but ... The immunity decision is > extraordinarily dangerous precisely because it allows a President to break > the law and to ignore traditional safeguards and then to claim immunity if > charges are brought against him. > >> > >> -- Russ Abbott > >> Professor Emeritus, Computer Science > >> California State University, Los Angeles > >> > >> > >> On Wed, Jul 17, 2024 at 7:19 AM glen <geprope...@gmail.com> wrote: > >> > >> Well, OK. It seems pretty clear that there are laws protecting citizens > (that don't protect non-citizens). Situations like arresting a citizen and > holding them for a very long time before charging them are the in-between > wiggle room. And we have things like opening investigations into them, etc. > And it would be pretty easy to "disappear" a nobody like me. I think it's > not so easy to disappear Trump. Anyway, there are some pretty hard > constraints like due process, posse comitatus, and such. The only way the > President could make an assassination of a citizen plausible is to deem > them an enemy of the state, revoke their citizenship, present some flimsy > justification for that revocation, etc. And even then, as long as they're > on US soil, (again, to be legitimate) you'd want to use the ATF, FBI, ICE, > or something, not the Navy or CIA. > >> > >> IDK. This scenario just feels like spy novel fantasy to me. It was a > good quip in the SCOTUS hearing. But there are too many holes in the > mechanics to do it with the appearance of legitimacy. (This says nothing of > doing it Nixon- or Hoover- style, of course.) > >> > >> I am kinda on pins and needles to see what Chutkan makes of some of > this, though. > >> > >> > >> On 7/16/24 19:34, Russ Abbott wrote: > >> > >> I think it's an official act if it involves the use of powers > designated by the Constitution as Presidential. As I understand the SCOTUS > ruling, the motivation for that use is not relevant. That's one of the > things that's so terrible about the immunity decision. Seal Team 6 and all > that. > >> > >> -- Russ > >> > >> On Tue, Jul 16, 2024, 11:17 AM glen <geprope...@gmail.com <mailto: > geprope...@gmail.com>> wrote: > >> > >> It's pretty hard for me to see how that would stand up in court. > If assassination of citizens, much less a fully cleared and daily > int-briefed President-elect, is ultimately ruled an "official" action, > we've already lost the Republic and committing the actual deed would be > futile. No need to worry about losing the Republic if the Republic is > already lost. > >> > >> On 7/16/24 10:47, Russ Abbott wrote: > >> > Why has no one pointed out the possibility that if Trump wins, > Biden could take advantage of his newly declared immunity and have him > assassinated? > >> > > >> > -- Russ > >> > > >> > On Tue, Jul 16, 2024, 6:24 AM glen <geprope...@gmail.com > <mailto:geprope...@gmail.com> <mailto:geprope...@gmail.com <mailto: > geprope...@gmail.com>>> wrote: > >> > > >> > Yeah. It's one thing to wish it or want it. It's another to > think more in Marcus' terms and come up with a more complex strategy not > involving stupid 20 year olds and no violence at all. I still hold out hope > for my own personal conspiracy theory. Biden becomes the nominee. After the > convention fades, the Admnistration announces Biden has gone to the > hospital for bone spur surgery. Kamala takes over temporarily and campaigns > furiously for Biden-Harris. Biden is re-elected. Biden recovers and gets > through the Oath (fingers crossed). Then he goes back to the hospital with > some minor thing like a dizzy spell. Kamala takes over again. Biden's > condition worsens. First Female President. Biden recovers and becomes > America's Grandpa. > >> > > >> > Come on Deep State. Make it happen. 8^D > >> > > >> > On 7/15/24 17:30, Russ Abbott wrote: > >> > > I wonder what Scott's response would have been to those > of us who, in response to the shooting, thought: better luck next time. > >> > > On 7/15/24 17:28, Marcus Daniels wrote: > >> > >> It ignores the option of doing things quietly and > indirectly. > >> > >> On 7/15/24 16:46, glen wrote: > >> > >>> [Scott's] Prayer > >> > >>> https://scottaaronson.blog/?p=8117 < > https://scottaaronson.blog/?p=8117> <https://scottaaronson.blog/?p=8117 < > https://scottaaronson.blog/?p=8117>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>> I'm currently surrounded by people who believe > intolerance is properly not tolerated. Scott's message, here, seems > extraordinary Christian, to me. (Real Christian, not the Christianism > displayed in things like megachurches and whatnot cf > https://raymondsmullyan.com/books/who-knows/ < > https://raymondsmullyan.com/books/who-knows/> < > https://raymondsmullyan.com/books/who-knows/ < > https://raymondsmullyan.com/books/who-knows/>>). This faith that "going > high" will, in the long run, win out, seems naive to me. The temptation to > "hoist the black flag and start slitting throats" isn't merely a > thresholded reaction, it's an intuitive grasp of the iterated prisoner's > dilemma, tit-for-tat style strategies, and Ashby's LoRV. But I'm open to > changing my mind on that. Maybe I'm just too low-brow? > >> > >>> > >> > >> -- > >> ꙮ Mɥǝu ǝlǝdɥɐuʇs ɟᴉƃɥʇ' ʇɥǝ ƃɹɐss snɟɟǝɹs˙ ꙮ > >> > >> -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. . > >> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > >> Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom > https://bit.ly/virtualfriam > >> to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > >> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ > >> archives: 5/2017 thru present > https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ > >> 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/ > >> > >> -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. . > >> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > >> Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom > https://bit.ly/virtualfriam > >> to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > >> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ > >> archives: 5/2017 thru present > https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ > >> 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/ > >> > >> -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. . > >> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > >> Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom > https://bit.ly/virtualfriam > >> to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > >> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ > >> archives: 5/2017 thru present > https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ > >> 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/ > >> > >> -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. . > >> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > >> Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom > https://bit.ly/virtualfriam > >> to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > >> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ > >> archives: 5/2017 thru present > https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ > >> 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/ > > -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. . > > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > > Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom > https://bit.ly/virtualfriam > > to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > > FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ > > archives: 5/2017 thru present > https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ > > 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/ > > > > -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. . > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom > https://bit.ly/virtualfriam > to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ > archives: 5/2017 thru present > https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ > 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/ >
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