BTW if my intro sounded sarcastic, the sarcasm was directed at myself,
not at Glen or his submission... I truly do get a strong hit of occult
or arcane, more likely the latter which I want to suss out, but (as my
sarcasm indicates) I know I often lose the plot (the scent) to stay
en-metaphor...
On 9/30/24 12:20 PM, steve smith wrote:
As usual, I am finding a strong hint of a whiff of something profound
in Glen's references here, but I will probably biff my
response/elaboration with my heady excitement:
I had to /find/ Vico and refresh myself on Rawls:
*Giambattista Vico*, an 18th-century philosopher best known for
his work on the *cyclical nature of history* and the importance of
*human culture in shaping social laws*. Vico believed that history
and society are not purely subject to rational, mechanistic laws
like those found in nature but are instead shaped by human
creativity, language, and culture. His work emphasizes that
*humans create their own social realities* and that knowledge of
society comes from within the context of lived human experience,
rather than abstract, external analysis.
and
*John Rawls*, a 20th-century political philosopher known for his
theory of *justice as fairness*. In rapidly changing social
contexts, a Rawlsian perspective might emphasize *fairness,
equality, and social justice*, particularly through the use of the
*original position* and the *veil of ignorance*. These are thought
experiments where individuals design societal rules without
knowing their future position in society, ensuring fairness for
all, especially the most disadvantaged. Such ideas could shape
debates on how to manage fairness in dynamic social transformations.
I definitely appreciate the (re)normalization of the more familiar
contemporary use of "elite" as some kind of slur or dismissal. And
the differentiation into "which elites to trust" or perhaps more
explicitely which *kind* of elites? And "why am I susceptible to
their influence, practical or emotional?"
I'd say that Musk (aka elno) present's multiple elite facets, perhaps
beginning with his "White South African youth during Apartheid while
reading too much old-fashioned SF and being driven by strong-willed
parents and subculture" to his serendipitous entry into the growing
.COM bubble of the late 90s and even more serendipitous jump from that
bubble to the one forming behind it (Tech 2.0 ?) which seems to have
become more of a (geologic style) vesicle or even a biological style
(where the robustness is transitory and utilitarian?).
Since his abject wealth kicked in (late 2010s?) he seems to have begun
to approach that limit of "absolute wealth ==> absolute corruption".
Is the wealthiest jerkball on the planet by definiition the absolutely
wealthiest? I forget the rumors about Putin that he is likely
"abjectly" more wealthy than elno skum hisself? Maybe by 1 or 2 digit
factors? His disruption of at least EVs and (recoverable) Orbital
Launch (soon to include Moon Landings and Mars Missions?) is another
type of eliteism which is a combination of tech and risk management?
His parlay of these dimensions of eliteism into social manipulation
with Twitter/X and now ffFFing presidential RealPolitik is an entirely
new level which I would claim rivals (mimics?) Trump's own ability to
twist (contemporary intersubjective) reality off it's existing axis
pretty effectively.
The variety of "elites" of interest might range from the likes of
well-known politicians of any stripe (from Cheneys to Clintons) to
well known Bureacratic figures (notably Anthony Fauci or Jerome Powell
or Ban ki-Moon) to social commentarians (Jon Stewart or Michael Moore
to Alex Jones and Anne Coulter) to (myriad) tech commentators like
Hossenfelder or Fridman or Rutt or Doctorow or Levin or
fictional/proxy movements like Antifa/Anonymous/Q ... I probably
missed wide swaths like Enviro/Climateers (Thunberg, McKibben) or
popFutureFictioneers (Stephenson, KSR, King, Atwood, etc.) or PopSci
influencers like Kurzweil or Chomsky or Wilson or Gould or Dennett or
Pollan or Dyson or Pinker or Diamond or Gladwell or Harari or or or
(ad nauseum)...
And as for Truth (or delusional belief?), the distinction between
physical reality (blurred as some would like it to be) and
intersubjective reality is significant (even if an acute illusion as
simulationists or interfaceinists (Hoffman) or quantum-reality-ists or
panpsychists (like DaveW and I?) or ...). The rhetorical world of
(especially national?) Politics seems to enhance this to the point
that it sometimes feels as if "nothing is real" even if most of us
most of the time don't step in front of busses nor eat wild-foraged
fungi we haven't identified carefully.
I also identify as an "almost dead privied white man" to perhaps of a
somewhat different stripe than Glen and I am starting to *fear* that
the "almost dead" horizon is moving away from me at a pace that hasn't
overtaken my own aging but might. Having just had my first major
bionic implant (excluding a good dozen dental fillings/caps in my
youth) and experiencing the ultra-high-tech capability of modern
surgical and diagnostic and imaging and hospitalization Medicine, I am
askeered that I will, as one of my parent's generation quipped "have
all the acute problems of previous generations resolved until I find
myself 'very old and dying of nothing in particular'" which in fact
is how my own parents lived roughly 20 years past their expiry dates
(as projected in their youth to be 70 and 72).
No matter what my Whitelash Male-Rights friends might suggest, I do
feel much more "privied" than I ever realized as I was experiencing
the most acute experiences of it (in my testosterone-driven ambitious
years).
The biggest privilege seems to be to be "still alive" after one or two
digit percentage of my cohort no longer is (starting with car crashes
in our teens followed by military mishaps to drug-related misdeeds,
followed by any number of early health challenges)... beyond that I
feel privileged to live in "a horrible country" (both Left and Right
tell me this) under "the worst form of government" and with a very bad
record of first-world disregard for third-world and non-human, non
mammalian, non-vertebrate, non-animal life and maybe even more
spectacular "the biosphere itself". Pretty soon, if ElnoSkum (and
JiffBozos and others) have their way we will begin the same abuses
beyond earth orbit (where it is already pretty trashy?)...
I also feel "privied" that I "got in" on the Capitalist and Homeowner
game early/well enough in life to not worry about access to basics
(Bed, Bread, and Bath) with a small reserve to do things like buy
(well used, but not used up) automobiles that can drive across the
continent at the drop of a credit card and new (or nearly) electronics
only one generation behind the new and novel and maintain good
internet connectivity (though orders of magnitude below that which I
hear folks here claiming the have and/or need?)... and now that
Uncle Joe has blessed me with Medicare (after 65) it appears I can
trade some of the luxury end of these other things for some basic
medical care... and some advanced as well (replace a joint or two
at-will?).
While some of my public presentation might make me a good target for
Trump's second line Internment and Ejection camps in 2025, I know I'll
more likely die of old age (i.e. nothing in particular) or a minor
mistake in the hyper-cautious, high-tech world of Medicine (or self
driving Cars, or exploding electronic devices) or bad judgement when
dealing with my mains power or some jury rigged Solar addition I make
to it.
Re: Procreation. I'm glad to be living in these "interesting times"
and by extension am glad for my children (yet more privied despite
being "girlz" ) and grandchildren (probably both end up a-gendered
over time) to be living in "yet more" interesting times? My parents
were avid ZPG fans in the 50s and I carried it forward with my own
progeny opting for NPG (replacement rate <.5). I don't know if I
infected them with enough of my "morbid fascination meme" to be
enjoying the ride as we precess into a wild tech-driven vortex of
theTechnoSingularity that seems now inevitable in their (if not my
own) lifespan. Irony would suggest that it is all going truly
/HellInAHamburgerBasket/ the millisecond after Ray Kurzweil dies...
The "fall line" of an exponential curve is wherever you are standing
at the moment methinks?
As my peers all seek to flee TrumpAMurrica if he slips-slides-slimes
his way back into office I am thinking it is my "civic duty" to stay
put and "fight the good fight" even if it is to be fodder for his
cannons (or deportment Trebuchets?) or inertial/viscous mass to slow
down (stuck to the bottom of) the tread of his JackBoots (with inserts
to help with the bone spurs)... I missed my chance in 1974 to
expatriate myself and as tempting as it sounds now, I also find
pleasure in being the gum in his gears if it comes to that. Or maybe
after the Dems manage to squeeze him back into the BrylCream tube he
squirted out of I can be the fodder/gum for *their* worst instincts?
/Gramble/,
- Sieve
On 9/30/24 7:29 AM, glen wrote:
Yeah, but the composition of physical laws up into the composites
that make up social laws isn't straightforward. Maybe I could stomach
the assumption of transitivity from, say, "biological laws" to
"social laws", but not physical laws to social laws. The transitivity
fails.
I can't tell where I actually land in the spectrum between Eric and
Dave's positions. I really like the idea that those who have their
hands inside the goo, inside the machine, close to the metal, are the
ones who decide how best to interact with the machine. As Dave once
accused, it's a bit Vico-ist. On the other hand, our collective
respect for (delusional belief in?) the Truth fades faster each day.
The elites are exhibiting faster rates of churn. (E.g. Elno and
SpaceX overturning tried and true, "modernist", methods for
engineering space machines. E.g. a top-notch Data Science postdoc
might cost a university ~$1M/yr, which means they all abandon the
academy and go to work for Google or somesuch. Etc.)
And with such a turbulent churn of the elite production system, it's
completely reasonable to be confused about which elites to trust - or
which side of their mouth to trust. Luckily, I hold Diogenes in high
esteem, which allows me to doubt everything ... regardless of EricC
and Nick's claim that's impossible. So it's no crisis for this
almost-dead privied white man. But the kids? What will they see on
the other side of this Rawlsian Veil? I'm so thankful I have no
children.
-. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p
Zoomhttps://bit.ly/virtualfriam
to (un)subscribehttp://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIChttp://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
archives: 5/2017 thru presenthttps://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/
1/2003 thru 6/2021http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/
-. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom
https://bit.ly/virtualfriam
to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
archives: 5/2017 thru present https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/
1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/
