Re: [FRIAM] tolerance of intolerance

[steve smith]

Steve - I assume your question of "how many 'political refugees' can
you take in there" is rhetorical. Although the incredibly bureaucratic
system here makes actually getting a long-term visa a bit of a pain in
practice, it is quite straightforward if one has the resources (proven
income from retirement or a moderate sum of money to invest). I think
the monthly income requirement is under $1000 and the investment
necessary (through a bank CD that yields probably about 7%) is around
$40K. That's the easy part.
yes, rhetorical for the most part... I'm much more likely to take the 
bonhoffer or schindler options...

Aside from it being very difficult to live here without at least a
rudimentary fluency in Spanish, the difficult part for many naive
"political refugees" is the culture shock of living in a country with
very different assumptions.
I was prepared to flee America at 18 to avoid the *implications of* the 
draft... I wasn't fluent in Spanish, but I could get by... the border 
was about 1 mile from my parents house and in those days it was easy to 
drive across the border (southerly) without even showing a driver's 
license.   The MX banks were riding high on US $$ invested (as Pesos) 
because their interest rates were higher than the US rates 
(significantly?) but that was the few years before the huge (10:1?) 
devaluation that happened just after that period. There were surely some 
limits on importing cash, but my $3k savings at the time probably wasn't 
over those limits but would have gone a long way as pesos, even after 
devaluation.    I turned 18 (and skipped the desertions since selective 
service quit requiring registration months before I turned 18).   I felt 
fairly comfortable with MX assumptions as experienced on the border... 
having many friends with grandparents and a few tias/tios living in MX 
and visiting their families from time to time.  Maybe harder/different 
deeper in MX, but before the type of cartel activity of today...
  Example one: there are no "good samaritan"
laws to protect drivers. If you are involved in a traffic accident
that results in injuries, you automatically are taken to "traffic
jail" until you can appear before a judge to determine if you have
committed an offense.
I've a young (now 45?) friend who went to Africa to deliver/install used 
computer equipment they scavenged/repaired in Portland OR... he came and 
went w/o incident but the *next* volunteer, driving the organizations 
old van hit someone.   He was literally stoned to death on the spot by 
the village.   Sobered my friend, but he went back anyway, let a local 
drive the van.
  These jails are apparently not so bad (not
really prisons, but more like barracks where you can't leave), but
still, they are quite an inconvenience. This can even happen if you
weren't involved in the accident, other than stopping to see if
someone along the road appears to be injured and waiting for an
ambulance to arrive. If you look like you have money, the person may
well lie to extort money from you. So the conventional wisdom here is
don't stop to help someone, and if you are involved in a traffic
accident, it is best to flee.
There were stories like this of MX federal (federales)police in my day...

Example two: the police are generally pretty corrupt. Though not
common in the part of the country where I live, in other provinces
nearer the coast, there are routine traffic stops to check that your
papers are in order. They often will tell you to just pull over to the
side of the road and wait for them to determine what to do with you.
In reality, they're waiting for you to come to a "gentleman's
agreement" to expedite your permission to go on your way. That
agreement usually involves "paying the fine right here" for $20 or
more.
Yeh, like that...
Example three: continuing with the police corruption (or incompetence)
theme, conventional wisdom says that if you're a victim of a crime
(robbery, assault), contacting the police is useless. The onus is on
you to go to the police station and file a police report, and it seems
to require that you name someone as the robber/assaulter. So much
crime goes unreported.
I remember when you reported the home invasion (on US Thanksgiving day?) 
a decade ago... didn't  sound fun at all (the intrusion nor the aftermath).

I've painted a pretty bleak picture, but in practice, you just have to
"learn the ropes". I suspect that many Latin American countries are
similar. But despite these warts, it is a beautiful land and the
people are generally extremely friendly (if not always honest).
The two people/couples I know making their way in Panama have a similar 
experience, but maybe a little more "backed up" by the US 
presence/history/relationship there.... but only a little.
  Having
lived here now for 16 years, I have come to accept these problems and
would never move back to the USA for a couple of reasons: first, I can
live, on my fixed income, a middle class lifestyle, whereas in the USA
I would be in poverty; and second, even though there are strong
political differences among people here, people of opposing views can
discuss those views without getting so bent out of shape, and
certainly don't reach the level of hatred as the right and left have
for each other in the USA. The society is "muy tranquilo" (very calm)
and the unofficial motto seems to be "todo bien" (everything is okay).

This is really good to hear.   My other experiences with US expats tend 
to have them a little less grounded in theri choices. Typically slightly 
spoiled professional class folks who seek something a notch above 
"middle class" retirements... some more righteous than others...  some 
semi-grounded in the local culture, others surfing on their privilege.  
They also report (Oaxaca, Puerto Escondido) area "tranquilo" and "todo 
bien" as the general vibe but I've always suspected it had something to 
do with "wealthy" Americans/Europeans...   One has applied for permanent 
resident status, I suspect based on an investment (sold a house here for 
easy .5M a few years ago, probably limited retirement income but 
probably over $1k/mo)...

The financial "buy in" you reference sounds lower threshold than MX or 
Panama, which I think might be order twice that?   I'm personally not 
seeking that but my near-homeless friend might be more well served by my 
providing a $40k investment than anything I could do to help protect her 
here if things went too sideways. She was once (in her 20s) married to a 
Spaniard, living in Spain... I suspect her Spanish would come back.   I 
think she would thrive in a "tranquilo" culture and hasn't driven much 
if at all for decades.   Her siblings, not so much... so maybe not

This is one of the best parts of FriAM IMO, the broad multi-cultural 
embedding in spite of a somewhat white-male-techno-professional 
substrate.  Thanks for the update...

Follow up question... do you have (adult) children, and how does all 
this settle with/for them?

- Steve


Gary

On Wed, Jul 17, 2024 at 5:26 PM steve smith <sasm...@swcp.com> wrote:
As things slide off toward more and more (probability of and depth of) 
authoriatarian intolerance I find myself trying to reign my self back in to the 
question of what to do with my offense and real concern for the nation (and 
world):  I do I prepare to be a Schindler or a Bonhoffer?

Too many of my (more Lefty) acquaintances are ideating exhaustively about "leaving 
the country" while I am trying to guess who more likely to suffer acutely if Project 
2025 and it's promulgators become the standard than I (elderish professional class white 
male with a scruffy beard, farmer's tan and a few callouses who is most comfortable 
wearing jeans and workboots, who owns a pickup truck).

We have one friend who has been homeless in her life, has significant emotional 
disabilities but has had her life on track for over 10 years now, but only with 
significant "gub'mnt assistance".  Two of her three siblings are in even worse 
shape, living much closer to the edge financially and mentally... she moved from here to 
be close to them and help as she could 5 or 6 years ago.  She is baldfaced scared that 
her siblings and likely herself will end up on the streets (again) in a heartbeat and 
possibly driven to worse things in the process.   I think *we* could help her enough that 
she could keep helping her siblings avoid a complete failure to thrive...   so that is 
one thing.
Another is a friend who has finally obtained permanent resident status after decades of bouncing between 
temporary work visas and returning to the highlands of MX, all the time working as hard as he could, birthing 
and raising two children (who are American Citizens by birth, aka "anchor babies") and now some 
grandchildren.  He doesn't openly worry or grouse, but I could feel the relief when his permanent residence 
status (and that of his wife in a similar time frame) came through.   While I think he is on the 
"safe" side of immigration rules being turned inside out, I'm sure he is worried about it as well 
as whether the intolerant elements of our community might feel (more) liberated in directing their 
"performative cruelty" in his family's direction.   Helping him could come in many forms, not sure 
what they are quite yet.
I'm sure there are others...  others I won't think of until I sit with it for a 
while?

Gary, how many "political refugees" can you take in there in Ecuador?   I doubt 
my canoe can traverse the coast around the Darien Gap, but it might be worth a try... 
(probably trade it on the south-end for something of value or at least some good intel on 
how to get to your place?)   or just stay here and channel Schindler and Bonhoffer?

- Steve

On 7/17/24 3:45 PM, Gary Schiltz wrote:

Well, as a theoretical matter, it's hard to say what would happen if
Biden were to try to knock off Trump. I can't in my wildest dreams
imagine that killing a political opponent would be considered to be an
official act of the president. As a practical matter? No chance he
would do more than fantasize about it, because I believe he is an
honorable man (for a politician) who cares about his legacy. What a
legacy that would be. But ignoring all that, if he *did* do it, just
remember which side (left or right) has the guns. And boy oh boy do
they have guns. It would at a minimum result in an armed, violent
insurrection, and I even wonder if the military would support him or
the insurrectionists. I certainly consider this type of action to be
treasonous.

On Wed, Jul 17, 2024 at 4:04 PM Russ Abbott <russ.abb...@gmail.com> wrote:

Don't want to drag this out forever, but ...  The immunity decision is 
extraordinarily dangerous precisely because it allows a President to break the 
law and to ignore traditional safeguards and then to claim immunity if charges 
are brought against him.

-- Russ Abbott
Professor Emeritus, Computer Science
California State University, Los Angeles


On Wed, Jul 17, 2024 at 7:19 AM glen <geprope...@gmail.com> wrote:

Well, OK. It seems pretty clear that there are laws protecting citizens (that don't 
protect non-citizens). Situations like arresting a citizen and holding them for a very 
long time before charging them are the in-between wiggle room. And we have things like 
opening investigations into them, etc. And it would be pretty easy to 
"disappear" a nobody like me. I think it's not so easy to disappear Trump. 
Anyway, there are some pretty hard constraints like due process, posse comitatus, and 
such. The only way the President could make an assassination of a citizen plausible is to 
deem them an enemy of the state, revoke their citizenship, present some flimsy 
justification for that revocation, etc. And even then, as long as they're on US soil, 
(again, to be legitimate) you'd want to use the ATF, FBI, ICE, or something, not the Navy 
or CIA.

IDK. This scenario just feels like spy novel fantasy to me. It was a good quip 
in the SCOTUS hearing. But there are too many holes in the mechanics to do it 
with the appearance of legitimacy. (This says nothing of doing it Nixon- or 
Hoover- style, of course.)

I am kinda on pins and needles to see what Chutkan makes of some of this, 
though.


On 7/16/24 19:34, Russ Abbott wrote:

I think it's an official act if it involves the use of powers designated by the 
Constitution as Presidential. As I understand the SCOTUS ruling, the motivation 
for that use is not relevant. That's one of the things that's so terrible about 
the immunity decision. Seal Team 6 and all that.

-- Russ

On Tue, Jul 16, 2024, 11:17 AM glen <geprope...@gmail.com 
<mailto:geprope...@gmail.com>> wrote:

     It's pretty hard for me to see how that would stand up in court. If assassination of 
citizens, much less a fully cleared and daily int-briefed President-elect, is ultimately 
ruled an "official" action, we've already lost the Republic and committing the 
actual deed would be futile. No need to worry about losing the Republic if the Republic 
is already lost.

     On 7/16/24 10:47, Russ Abbott wrote:
      > Why has no one pointed out the possibility that if Trump wins, Biden 
could take advantage of his newly declared immunity and have him assassinated?
      >
      > -- Russ
      >
      > On Tue, Jul 16, 2024, 6:24 AM glen <geprope...@gmail.com <mailto:geprope...@gmail.com> 
<mailto:geprope...@gmail.com <mailto:geprope...@gmail.com>>> wrote:
      >
      >     Yeah. It's one thing to wish it or want it. It's another to think 
more in Marcus' terms and come up with a more complex strategy not involving 
stupid 20 year olds and no violence at all. I still hold out hope for my own 
personal conspiracy theory. Biden becomes the nominee. After the convention fades, 
the Admnistration announces Biden has gone to the hospital for bone spur surgery. 
Kamala takes over temporarily and campaigns furiously for Biden-Harris. Biden is 
re-elected. Biden recovers and gets through the Oath (fingers crossed). Then he 
goes back to the hospital with some minor thing like a dizzy spell. Kamala takes 
over again. Biden's condition worsens. First Female President. Biden recovers and 
becomes America's Grandpa.
      >
      >     Come on Deep State. Make it happen. 8^D
      >
      >     On 7/15/24 17:30, Russ Abbott wrote:
      >      > I wonder what Scott's response would have been to those of us 
who, in response to the shooting, thought: better luck next time.
      >      > On 7/15/24 17:28, Marcus Daniels wrote:
      >      >> It ignores the option of doing things quietly and indirectly.
      >      >> On 7/15/24 16:46, glen wrote:
      >      >>> [Scott's] Prayer
      >      >>> https://scottaaronson.blog/?p=8117 <https://scottaaronson.blog/?p=8117> 
<https://scottaaronson.blog/?p=8117 <https://scottaaronson.blog/?p=8117>>
      >      >>>
      >      >>> I'm currently surrounded by people who believe intolerance is properly not tolerated. Scott's 
message, here, seems extraordinary Christian, to me. (Real Christian, not the Christianism displayed in things like megachurches 
and whatnot cf https://raymondsmullyan.com/books/who-knows/ <https://raymondsmullyan.com/books/who-knows/> 
<https://raymondsmullyan.com/books/who-knows/ <https://raymondsmullyan.com/books/who-knows/>>). This faith that 
"going high" will, in the long run, win out, seems naive to me. The temptation to "hoist the black flag and start 
slitting throats" isn't merely a thresholded reaction, it's an intuitive grasp of the iterated prisoner's dilemma, 
tit-for-tat style strategies, and Ashby's LoRV. But I'm open to changing my mind on that. Maybe I'm just too low-brow?
      >      >>>

--
ꙮ Mɥǝu ǝlǝdɥɐuʇs ɟᴉƃɥʇ' ʇɥǝ ƃɹɐss snɟɟǝɹs˙ ꙮ

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