As John Clark (a physicalist true believer) puts it, the brute fact or assumption is that consciousness is how it feels when data is processed. In this account, consciousness is the experience of information - the information from our sensory organs as it is processed in our brains. So if one accepts that theory of reality, qualia exist only as a signal that refers to things that exist independently of an individual's consciousness. That's what makes it epistemological.
That version is not what I subscribe to, and I'm not trying to convince you that's the correct account. I'm only saying, there's no way, not even in principle, to prove that that's the Truth of what the ultimate ontology is. The same goes for your account, which is that consciousness and qualia are all that exists. PS. By definition, an IQ of 100 is the median. So "most people" have an IQ right around 100. And I don't mean to suggest that because most people take the physicalist account, that makes it more likely to be true. I'm saying, if you're talking about your alternative, minority theory of reality as if it's fact, then that means you better be able to prove it. *And you can't* *- nobody can*, just as nobody can prove physicalism is true. On Fri, Jan 10, 2025 at 3:39 AM 'Cosmin Visan' via Everything List < everything-list@googlegroups.com> wrote: > @Terren. How can qualia have epistemological status when it exists ? > Exists = ontologic. You seem very confused regarding the meaning of words. > > Also, "most people" have IQ below 100. This is close to monkey-level. How > is that a criteria on which to decide truth ? > > Also, define "energy"! Define "matter"! > > On Tuesday, 7 January 2025 at 17:48:01 UTC+2 Terren Suydam wrote: > >> In your theory, the quale has ontological status, ok. In physicalism >> (what most people assume), qualia have epistemological status. IOW, qualia >> is a form of information about something that exists independently of our >> individual consciousness. >> >> In your theory, consciousness is the fundamental ontology. In >> physicalism, matter & energy is the fundamental ontology. >> >> Deciding what is the fundamental ontology is a metaphysical decision. >> It's an assumption or belief from which other things follow. But the truth >> of what is the fundamental ontology cannot be proven. >> >> On Tue, Jan 7, 2025 at 5:00 AM 'Cosmin Visan' via Everything List < >> everyth...@googlegroups.com> wrote: >> >>> @Terren. Yes. What do you mean by "thing" ? The chair that you see in >>> front of you ? But that is just a quale in consciousness. So what do you >>> mean by "thing" ? >>> >>> On Tuesday, 7 January 2025 at 02:28:05 UTC+2 Terren Suydam wrote: >>> >>>> 🙄 >>>> >>>> On Mon, Jan 6, 2025 at 7:19 PM 'Cosmin Visan' via Everything List < >>>> everyth...@googlegroups.com> wrote: >>>> >>>>> @Terren. What thing ? >>>>> >>>>> On Tuesday, 7 January 2025 at 00:33:55 UTC+2 Terren Suydam wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> I would venture that the common sense notion of existence means that >>>>>> a thing that exists has been instantiated. >>>>>> >>>>>> -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > To view this discussion visit > https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/d0ad42e4-836f-47b2-9738-a045aa971470n%40googlegroups.com > <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/d0ad42e4-836f-47b2-9738-a045aa971470n%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> > . > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/CAMy3ZA8dHqAxGx_AwRgQfLFUjyvM7vzivAHjGaRaw_1XZjOZ4A%40mail.gmail.com.
