On Monday, May 20, 2019, Philip Thrift <[email protected]> wrote:
> > > On Monday, May 20, 2019 at 10:39:20 AM UTC-5, Jason wrote: >> >> >>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WjCytqku18M >>>>> >>>> >> >> > > That was interesting. Data has consciousness or doesn't. It's like being > pregnant. > > So what would you say to data, if he existed? That you're not conscious because every other conscious being that we know of is biological? > > >> >> >> >> >>> >>> There are several alternatives to our biochemistry, of course [ >>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypothetical_types_of_biochemistry ], >>> even involving silicon*. (This is about the 20th time I have posted this.) >>> >>> But I claim that no zillion-processor Intel Core computer (that >>> ultimately runs programs compiled to Intel machine code) can be conscious. >>> I also claim God does not exist. >>> >>> It is this context that [ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_room ] >>> is correct. >>> >> >>> "The Chinese room argument holds that an executing program cannot [have] >>> consciousness, regardless of how intelligently or human-like the program >>> may make the computer behave." >>> >>> >> The Chinese Room Argument was thoroughly debunked by over a dozen >> critiquers before it was published. It has numerous flaws, none of which >> were addressed between the time he received the critiques and when Searle >> published. >> >> A few examples: >> >> - It confuses the "processor" for the system as a whole. This would >> be like confusing the laws of physics for the human brain. The laws of >> physics is the substrate by which the brain states are processed and >> updated, but you would not ascribe the consciousness to the laws of >> physics. >> - It assumes there is only one mind in the room, the human operator. >> But this quickly falls upon closer inspection, if you interview the >> "chinese speaking mind" you find that the opinions of this other mind are >> not the opinions of the english speaking human operator. >> >> >> >>> * Silicon biochemistry >>> See also: Organosilicon <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organosilicon> >>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Silane.png> >>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Silane.png> >>> Structure of silane <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silane>, analog of >>> methane <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Methane> >>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:PDMS.svg> >>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:PDMS.svg> >>> Structure of the silicone polydimethylsiloxane >>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polydimethylsiloxane> (PDMS) >>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Diatom2.jpg> >>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Diatom2.jpg> >>> Marine diatoms <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diatoms>—carbon-based >>> organisms that extract silicon from sea water, in the form of its oxide >>> (silica) and incorporate it into their cell walls >>> >>> The silicon atom has been much discussed as the basis for an alternative >>> biochemical system, because silicon has many chemical properties >>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chemical_property> similar to those of >>> carbon and is in the same group of the periodic table >>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Group_(periodic_table)>, the carbon group >>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon_group>. Like carbon, silicon can >>> create molecules that are sufficiently large to carry biological >>> information.[10] >>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypothetical_types_of_biochemistry#cite_note-Pace-10> >>> >>> However, silicon has several drawbacks as an alternative to carbon. >>> Silicon, unlike carbon, lacks the ability to form chemical bonds with >>> diverse types of atoms as is necessary for the chemical versatility >>> required for metabolism, and yet this precise inability is what makes >>> silicon less susceptible to bond with all sorts of impurities from which >>> carbon, in comparison, is not shielded. Elements creating organic >>> functional groups with carbon include hydrogen, oxygen, nitrogen, >>> phosphorus, sulfur, and metals such as iron, magnesium, and zinc. Silicon, >>> on the other hand, interacts with very few other types of atoms.[10] >>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypothetical_types_of_biochemistry#cite_note-Pace-10> >>> Moreover, >>> where it does interact with other atoms, silicon creates molecules that >>> have been described as "monotonous compared with the combinatorial universe >>> of organic macromolecules".[10] >>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypothetical_types_of_biochemistry#cite_note-Pace-10> >>> This >>> is because silicon atoms are much bigger, having a larger mass >>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass> and atomic radius >>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atomic_radius>, and so have difficulty >>> forming double bonds (the double-bonded carbon is part of the carbonyl >>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbonyl> group, a fundamental motif of >>> carbon-based bio-organic chemistry). >>> >>> Silanes <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silanes>, which are chemical >>> compounds <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chemical_compound>of hydrogen >>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen> and silicon that are analogous >>> to the alkane <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alkane> hydrocarbons >>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrocarbon>, are highly reactive with >>> water <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_(molecule)>, and long-chain >>> silanes spontaneously decompose. Molecules incorporating polymers >>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polymer> of alternating silicon and >>> oxygen <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxygen> atoms instead of direct >>> bonds between silicon, known collectively as silicones >>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silicone>, are much more stable. It has >>> been suggested that silicone-based chemicals would be more stable than >>> equivalent hydrocarbons in a sulfuric-acid-rich environment, as is found in >>> some extraterrestrial locations.[11] >>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypothetical_types_of_biochemistry#cite_note-world-building-11> >>> >>> Of the varieties of molecules identified in the interstellar medium >>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interstellar_medium> as of 1998, 84 are >>> based on carbon, while only 8 are based on silicon.[12] >>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypothetical_types_of_biochemistry#cite_note-12> >>> Moreover, >>> of those 8 compounds, 4 also include carbon within them. The cosmic >>> abundance >>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abundance_of_the_chemical_elements> of >>> carbon to silicon is roughly 10 to 1. This may suggest a greater variety of >>> complex carbon compounds throughout the cosmos, providing less of a >>> foundation on which to build silicon-based biologies, at least under the >>> conditions prevalent on the surface of planets. Also, even though Earth >>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earth> and other terrestrial planets >>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terrestrial_planet> are exceptionally >>> silicon-rich and carbon-poor (the relative abundance of silicon to carbon >>> in Earth's crust is roughly 925:1), terrestrial life is carbon-based. The >>> fact that carbon is used instead of silicon may be evidence that silicon is >>> poorly suited for biochemistry on Earth-like planets. Reasons for which may >>> be that silicon is less versatile than carbon in forming compounds, that >>> the compounds formed by silicon are unstable, and that it blocks the flow >>> of heat.[13] >>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypothetical_types_of_biochemistry#cite_note-BC-13> >>> >>> Even so, biogenic silica <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biogenic_silica> is >>> used by some Earth life, such as the silicate >>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silicate> skeletal structure of diatoms >>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diatom>. According to the clay hypothesis >>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abiogenesis#Clay_hypothesis> of A. G. >>> Cairns-Smith <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graham_Cairns-Smith>, >>> silicate minerals in water played a crucial role in abiogenesis >>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abiogenesis>: they replicated their >>> crystal structures, interacted with carbon compounds, and were the >>> precursors of carbon-based life.[14] >>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypothetical_types_of_biochemistry#cite_note-14> >>> [15] >>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypothetical_types_of_biochemistry#cite_note-15> >>> >>> Although not observed in nature, carbon–silicon bonds have been added to >>> biochemistry by using directed evolution (artificial selection). A heme >>> containing cytochrome *c* protein from *Rhodothermus marinus* has been >>> engineered using directed evolution to catalyze the formation of new >>> carbon–silicon bonds between hydrosilanes and diazo compounds.[16] >>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypothetical_types_of_biochemistry#cite_note-16> >>> >>> Silicon compounds may possibly be biologically useful under temperatures >>> or pressures different from the surface of a terrestrial planet, either in >>> conjunction with or in a role less directly analogous to carbon. >>> Polysilanols, the silicon compounds corresponding to sugars >>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sugar>, are soluble in liquid nitrogen, >>> suggesting that they could play a role in very-low-temperature biochemistry. >>> [17] >>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypothetical_types_of_biochemistry#cite_note-17> >>> [18] >>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypothetical_types_of_biochemistry#cite_note-18> >>> >>> In cinematic and literary science fiction, at a moment when man-made >>> machines cross from nonliving to living, it is often posited,[*by whom? >>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style/Words_to_watch#Unsupported_attributions>* >>> ] this new form would be the first example of non-carbon-based life. >>> Since the advent of the microprocessor >>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microprocessor> in the late 1960s, these >>> machines are often classed as computers >>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computer> (or computer-guided robots >>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robot>) and filed under "silicon-based >>> life", even though the silicon backing matrix of these processors is not >>> nearly as fundamental to their operation as carbon is for "wet life". >>> >>> >> Do you think there is something about the carbon atoms vs silicon atoms >> that is important to feeling? Can "carbon" atoms alone be happy or sad? >> Can a carbon atom alone be alive? >> >> I think carbon was selected because it can hold bonds with up to 4 other >> atoms, making it a useful atomic glue for large structures. Things like >> life and consciousness do not exist at the atomic level, they are large >> scale processes that emerge from many complex interactions. We know that a >> computer can replicate the processes and behaviors of any interaction, so >> long as it is finite. This is evidence that a computer could fool us into >> thinking it is conscious, and that we could implement hybrid brains with >> biological and synthetic neurons. What then of the qualia of such >> functionally indistinguishable minds? >> >> Jason >> > > > All examples of consciousness we have exist in living objects. (Us, for > example.) > > True but that's not evidence > Can something be a conscious object but not a living object? > > Depending on your definition of life, yes, I think so. Jason > @philipthrift > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to [email protected]. > To view this discussion on the web visit > https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/b7b6d0ec-ce40-4c52-b0c7-892bb51d59e9%40googlegroups.com > <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/b7b6d0ec-ce40-4c52-b0c7-892bb51d59e9%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> > . > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [email protected]. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/CA%2BBCJUhLWrmiAbi68Ks3KMEU7PCU7nJsbnP8nhrRpupw_Mq9dQ%40mail.gmail.com.
